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08-08-2007, 08:15 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ocean mists
Posts: 860
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“Naïve altruism” and free upgrades for life
I was reading thru some of the Reaper in other forums stuff and got some amusement as well as insight (and obvious spare time for the minute).
“Midi suks but will probably get better”
“Not about to entirely give up Cubase yet, but…”
Some lone evangelist telling the users of the big guns, you got to at least give this a try, and the guarded amazement when they do.
etc,etc,etc.
Lots of comments on the upbeat vibe of the forum and the strengths of the program.
A lot of “What’s the catch” on top of the “Naïve altruism” aimed at the company and developers. This was interesting. Cockos got to be backwoods, behind the slick times of the 21st century. Why the constant upgrades, the $40 price, and the uncrippled software? What’s the catch? You can do quarterly or yearly upgrades, charge major bucks and have the software paralyzed by Fort Knox security. They gots to be a catch somewhere. These poor dudes will just go broke giving away programs that no one will register. “naïve altruism”. Never going to rape others to the top of the pile with that approach.
Reality, combination of the program, price and non shackled software made registration the thing to do, and a lot faster than if it had been half a program waiting to be unlocked. I don’t think I’m in the absolute minority on this. There’s still good in the world.
On the dark side, I’ve got multiple other softwares on my machines that are burdened with various wangles, dangles and activation barriers. I keep the intent of these licenses intact and I pay for my software. They don’t get sold, borrowed, passed around, but damn if I’m not on the first keygen to hit the warez sites after being burned several times on failed 2:00 am reactivation or transfer attempts. The heavier the protection lock, the greater the thrill for some 14-year-old kid or group of prison hackers who will bust it open the next day.
So anyway, it looks like Reaper is definitely getting exponential press and presence just as it is presented. Probably won’t be long until even with the modest price, there will be a self sustaining income if you guys are not already there yet. Something I haven’t seen thrown around or suggested (sorry if it has) is something like Fruit Loops. They have a one-time payment that goes toward lifetime upgrades. This could bring in some elevated income now, before Reaper takes over the planet, the program is perfected and you programmers can retire. I know if this were an option, I’d gladly send some money to support the effort, as well as likely many others.
Regards,
John K
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08-09-2007, 12:46 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Location: atlanta
Posts: 99
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I started a thread on dogsonacid, the busiest music site on the web, where I was the lone evangelist and I heard all the what's the catch stuff and the midi/cubase stuff as well. It turned into a five page thread where I believe I got a lot ofnnew people to try the program. Thought initially that that's what you were referring to when I read the thread. Positive is right tho. I'm on my iPhone or I would paste the thread link in here. Can search for reaper on The Grid over there tho
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08-09-2007, 06:05 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ocean mists
Posts: 860
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Mission,
You definitely did a fine job stirring things up over there.
John
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08-09-2007, 06:17 PM
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#4
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,716
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Well, I'll just comment on this.. that free upgrades for life is something we have indeed considered, but decided against because it would generally decrease the quality of the product.
If we said "REAPER is free for life", then if we needed to increase revenue, you'd see us selling add-on plug-ins, etc, etc, trying to get around it..
Whereas now if we want to increase revenue, we can just do tons of good things, and call it a new major version...
It's all about making the best product...
-Justin
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08-09-2007, 06:26 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ocean mists
Posts: 860
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It's all about making the best product...
-Justin[/QUOTE]
Good to know some decent "naive altruism" is deep in the philosophy. This program will succeed.
John
Last edited by J Kennedy; 08-09-2007 at 06:31 PM.
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08-09-2007, 06:30 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
It's all about making the best product...
-Justin
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08-09-2007, 07:04 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
...If we said "REAPER is free for life", then if we needed to increase revenue, you'd see us selling add-on plug-ins, etc, etc, trying to get around it...
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Didn't FL ultimately end up kind of abandoning the "free upgrades for life" users by chagning the name or launching a new version path or something?
Anyway, I'm with Jusin on this-- I'd much rather pay now for what I'm getting now. If Reaper wasn't worth it today I wouldn't own it. If it's not worth what it costs tomorrow then I'll keep what I have now.
"Free upgrades" implies that I'm buying something that is currently inadequate but that will at some future point be worth my current investment.
Incidentally, I love eveything about Reaper's business model, and I sincerely hope (and expect) that it is a successful one. There are these rampant theories that it must be some kind of altruism or flaky gimmick or hobby but frankly it represents everything good about capitalism when a producer focuses on core competencies. That is, providing better, cheaper, faster products and services for their customers.
People have developed these cynical expectations that any successful company must be built around something other than the above and I think it's kind of sad. The approach of trying to create something better for less money is *not* some newfangled gimmick, but rather the real and ancient core of free enterprise and exactly the stuff that Adam Smith was talking about. It is rather the modern finance- and marketing-based business models that are built on flimsy and ephemeral foundations.
Cheers.
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08-09-2007, 07:39 PM
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#8
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Scribe
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Van Diemen's Land
Posts: 12,157
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I might as well chip in my 2 cents worth as well.
I have never understood why people will fork out $000 for PC, DAW, microphones, sound cards, preamps, headphones, control surface etc, but then get really stingey about paying for the software which is the brain and nerve-centre of the whole studio.
I guess if you were forking out something like $5,000 for a program you'd maybe be entitled to expect free upgrades for life, but for pity's sake, at $40 for a user licence or $199 for a commercial licence, what on earth do people expect?
One day's paid work will more than recover the outlay for the commercial licnce even. After that you're ahead.
If something is good it's worth paying for. And Reaper isn't just good. it's the best.
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08-09-2007, 08:12 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yep
Didn't FL ultimately end up kind of abandoning the "free upgrades for life" users by chagning the name or launching a new version path or something?
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They charged an "upgrade" fee once when they changed the name from Fruity Loops to FL Studio, but you still get free upgrades for the version of FL Studio you own. Instead of one version of the program they now have three, plus a bunch of plug-ins that people can opt to buy. Considering the amount of improvements/updates you get it still represents great value.
IMO I think the Reaper pricing scheme makes more sense - especially for people who don't need the Commercial license.
Cheers,
Malcolm.
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08-09-2007, 08:13 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yep
Didn't FL ultimately end up kind of abandoning the "free upgrades for life" users by chagning the name or launching a new version path or something?.
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yes and no.
the newer path featured things that were completely different... they justified it this way.
all versions had their updates.
but the newer "producer" edition has ASIO recording, and an extended mixer or something.... I dont remember. It seemed to make sense, but you can see the folly of doing the free upgrades thing. I mean they have to make money somehow.
and then look at them now, TONS of side products.. less focus im sure on FLstudio.
the version 7 upgrade wasnt that impressive imo.
(user of FL since version 2)
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08-09-2007, 08:15 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,957
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kennedy.
human beings never cease to amaze me.
give them something wonderfull like reaper,
and still they find some way to put it down
from some threads ive seen.
mebe its fear of the unknown.
or mebe its the fact that in many respects rpr has shaken up the daw software market.
(imho....about darn time. )
after seeing some comments in some forums i'm convinced
even if reaper had every feature known in the audio world,
some would still find some way to put it down.
i have a saying....i used years ago...
"technical brilliance often creates many jealousies".
i'm just looking forward with great optimism to the next year ,
and seeing what goodies justin n christophe bring out from under their kimonos (or whatever they wear..lol.)
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08-09-2007, 08:41 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1
kennedy.
human beings never cease to amaze me.
give them something wonderfull like reaper,
and still they find some way to put it down
from some threads ive seen.
mebe its fear of the unknown.
or mebe its the fact that in many respects rpr has shaken up the daw software market.
(imho....about darn time. )
after seeing some comments in some forums i'm convinced
even if reaper had every feature known in the audio world,
some would still find some way to put it down.
i have a saying....i used years ago...
"technical brilliance often creates many jealousies".
i'm just looking forward with great optimism to the next year ,
and seeing what goodies justin n christophe bring out from under their kimonos (or whatever they wear..lol.)
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+1
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08-09-2007, 09:33 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
It's all about making the best product...
-Justin
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And that's the type of policy from the source coder that will take Reaper to the top.
Shane
__________________
"Music should be performed by the musician not by the engineer."
Michael Wagener 25th July 2005, 02:59 PM
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08-09-2007, 10:30 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,888
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problem is people believe you have to work a certain 'hardness' for $20 an hour and they need some kind of bogus bestowment of title to deserve $20,000 an hour, or work 1000 times as hard (impossible)
i dont think anyone could be working any harder on this program, but more people could be paid to tighten this puppy up a little more if:
a) more people were sold on it, likely due to case b.
b) the program was more stable, streamlined, likely resulting in case a, and possibly also d.
c) the price was raised, likely hastening b, leading to possibly a or d.
d) more venture capital and more programmers.
what independent programmer do you know that doesnt like to get paid for their work? I know some dudes here made winamp and are gonna make all their money somehow, like advertising or something. they must have something figured out. maybe they're just having fun.
but, its still pretty impressive a dent you reaper devs are making. i commend you for that, don't feel like im tapping your nuts or anything.
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08-09-2007, 11:17 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 68
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Reaper is the most stable, streamlined, and efficient DAW software I have ever used. It also inspires me more than any other program. People are scared to admit that a program that costs $40 - $200 is as good or better than programs costing $500 - $1500, especially if those people paid that much for those programs.
I think the pricing of Reaper is very much in line with its efficient and flexible nature. The developers "get it", and are hopefully being rewarded with paid licenses. The main advantage of Reaper is that it is a brand new program with constant updates, which are coded by amazing developers whose motives are not only making $$. As with any revolutionary product, it has ravenous supporters and instant haters. I guess you can guess where I fall.
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08-10-2007, 05:04 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,957
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reapercurious..
in theory throwing more bodies at a computer system
development or product sounds fine in theory.
but..let me tell you from experience,
it doesnt always work.
in fact some of the biggest screw ups in industry ive ever seen resulted from large teams of people.
too many egos get in the way, too many dam meetings and lots of other factors.
imho...a small team working very closely and hell bent for leather on a single common very focused objective can achieve wonders.
just my 2 canadian cents.
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08-10-2007, 05:17 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A place that allows me to protect myself...
Posts: 8,245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1
reapercurious..
in theory throwing more bodies at a computer system
development or product sounds fine in theory.
but..let me tell you from experience,
it doesnt always work.
in fact some of the biggest screw ups in industry ive ever seen resulted from large teams of people.
too many egos get in the way, too many dam meetings and lots of other factors.
imho...a small team working very closely and hell bent for leather on a single common very focused objective can achieve wonders.
just my 2 canadian cents.
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Gads... ain't that the freakin' TRUTH... I think most of the meetings I go to are to decide when to have more meetings. ZERO work gets done.
D
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08-10-2007, 05:30 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,605
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I don't see how reapercurious makes sense with his posting. Is he advicing Justin to handle REAPER as Steinberg handles Cubase?
What a silly joke.
There is however one guy I sometimes would like to see added to the REAPER devs team.... our own schwa who I suspect could be the great and original/inventive MIDI coder to assist J & C in making REAPER the killer app for MIDI sequencing and editing as well. Just a suggestion and a daydream though... and it may not even be necessary for MIDI is coming along fine - but we're hungry folks
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08-10-2007, 06:15 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex zonder
There is however one guy I sometimes would like to see added to the REAPER devs team.... our own schwa who I suspect could be the great and original/inventive MIDI coder to assist J & C in making REAPER the killer app for MIDI sequencing and editing as well.
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Boooooya! And plugins would benefit!
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08-10-2007, 06:50 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reaper Fine Arts Department
Posts: 1,607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1
reapercurious..
in theory throwing more bodies at a computer system
development or product sounds fine in theory.
but..let me tell you from experience,
it doesnt always work.
in fact some of the biggest screw ups in industry ive ever seen resulted from large teams of people.
too many egos get in the way, too many dam meetings and lots of other factors.
imho...a small team working very closely and hell bent for leather on a single common very focused objective can achieve wonders.
just my 2 canadian cents.
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And this has been my experience too. Too many egos to stroke at once slows the process down. Add to that modern corporate profit methodology, and it's little wonder so many daws, among other programs suffer as a result.
I don't know what Justin's motivation is for reaper. At a glance, i'd say he's enjoying himself, and we get the benefit. Who knows? I don't care frankly, as i'm getting on with writing and enjoying myself.
Reapercurious,
you're big on giving advice to others, as if your way is THE way. I've heard this song so many times before from others like you, who in the light of day, have little or no idea of what it takes to put stuff like this together.
Why don't you start your own outfit, assemble your large programming team, and see how far you get? You know, put up or offer something constructive instead.
And i'll kill another impression you seem to be trying to create, about those who are enthusiastic about Reaper. I for one am not an acolyte, or Reaper dreamer. I'm a practical (some would say ruthlessly blunt) full time composer who wants a practical tool. My compliments to the team, when they're earned, come from admiring what is classy work, that DIRECTLY helps me to do my job.
I have no intention of praying at the altar of 'Justin', nor offering to wash his car or marry his sister.
He, and his small team, do good work in my opinion, and work to introduce the elements that other daws have promised for a long time, and never delivered. (Routing. It's not rocket science, and when presented in an easy to use and understandable fashion, takes huge chunks of time out of the setting up and usage process.) And i've paid for the program, without expecting Justin or anyone else to 'reward' me in some way for backing the product. I don't need freebies, and don't want 'em. I JUST WANT SOMETHING THAT WORKS, and doesn't take a degree in quantum mechanics to setup.
I've had the misfortune in the last couple of days to come across more than one of your posts, that are, at best, clumsy, or i suspect more likely, the fearful ramblings of a competing developer who realises he's getting a serious run for his money from Reaper.
I'd like Justin and the team to be imminently successful.
Not because i can crow and gloat about my 'part' in the Reaper project as a user, but because if Justin's successful, i get something that i can use, and enjoy using.
I don't give a toss if he makes a squillion out of it, and to be blunt, i hope he does. His financial affairs, or company structure, are frankly, none of my business. If he stopped now in reaper development, and i don't think for one moment he will, i'm already ahead of where i was.
I've read so much here along the lines of 'why don't you do it like program A, or set it up like program B?' Some great suggestions in there, but if a particular program has so many good things, then go buy it, and enjoy yourself. I reckon it wouldn't take long before the limitations become readily apparent.
I like seeing talented people doing their thing without restriction, or shareholder restraint, because, and again i'll be honest, corporate shareholders, in the main, wouldn't have a bloody clue about products, or care, as long as they get a dividend. I say good luck to the Reaper team, and i hope they make such an impact on our niche market, that other players will have to WRITE NEW CODE, and rethink what they think the CUSTOMER wants, instead of regurgitating the same poorly written old stuff, over and over again, for profit first.
Stuff 'em.
I suspect there's a lot of people like you out there who want Reaper to fall on its ass. And i find it amusing that you're all so frightened that you have to resort to cheap shots, and as i wrote in response to you in another thread, poorly written, amibiguous, ramblings. If i were Justin, i'd be rather pleased ar such a development, as it means he's making an impact, and shaking up the industry. Good on him. It's needed a major kick in the corporate ass for a long time.
And Reapercurious, If i were part of the Reaper team (and i'm not looking for a job), you'd be the LAST person on the planet i'd take advice from.
Here's another vote for Schwa getting involved in some way. He doesn't wave his own flag, or pontificate about how important he is. From what i've seen so far, he gets on with it, and does outstanding work.
Alex.
Last edited by Alex Stone; 08-10-2007 at 07:23 AM.
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08-10-2007, 07:14 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 3,378
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Great post Alex, I agree whole heartedly with what you said.
MC
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08-10-2007, 07:21 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reaper Fine Arts Department
Posts: 1,607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jba
Reaper is the most stable, streamlined, and efficient DAW software I have ever used. It also inspires me more than any other program. People are scared to admit that a program that costs $40 - $200 is as good or better than programs costing $500 - $1500, especially if those people paid that much for those programs.
I think the pricing of Reaper is very much in line with its efficient and flexible nature. The developers "get it", and are hopefully being rewarded with paid licenses. The main advantage of Reaper is that it is a brand new program with constant updates, which are coded by amazing developers whose motives are not only making $$. As with any revolutionary product, it has ravenous supporters and instant haters. I guess you can guess where I fall.
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Jba,
I'm not scared or ashamed of admitting that Reaper is modestly priced, at all! I consider it a smart financial move on my part to buy something that works, as opposed to paying out a lot more money for poorly written 'brand' goods. I'm heartened by this, and consider it a thoroughly sensible thing to do.
Making good decisions is more important than showing off, in my humble opinion.
Alex.
Last edited by Alex Stone; 08-10-2007 at 08:09 AM.
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08-10-2007, 07:32 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2007
Location: atlanta
Posts: 99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Kennedy
Mission,
You definitely did a fine job stirring things up over there.
John
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oh that WAS me you're talking about. Thanks, thought it sounded familiar
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08-10-2007, 07:39 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reapercurious
problem is people believe you have to work a certain 'hardness' for $20 an hour and they need some kind of bogus bestowment of title to deserve $20,000 an hour, or work 1000 times as hard (impossible)
i dont think anyone could be working any harder on this program, but more people could be paid to tighten this puppy up a little more if:
a) more people were sold on it, likely due to case b.
b) the program was more stable, streamlined, likely resulting in case a, and possibly also d.
c) the price was raised, likely hastening b, leading to possibly a or d.
d) more venture capital and more programmers.
what independent programmer do you know that doesnt like to get paid for their work? I know some dudes here made winamp and are gonna make all their money somehow, like advertising or something. they must have something figured out. maybe they're just having fun.
but, its still pretty impressive a dent you reaper devs are making. i commend you for that, don't feel like im tapping your nuts or anything.
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How in God's name is Reaper going to become MORE streamlined and stable by getting more people to put their fingers in the pie? It is already on the bleeding edge of streamlined and stable DAWs...
All of the above is pure folly. It is based on the erroneous assumption that Reaper must ipso facto be inferior to other DAWs that have more expensive development costs. I think what everyone who is using Reaper has seen is that the massive corporate development teams that we have been paying thousands of dollars to over the years do NOT "tighten these puppies up," and do not necessarily produce more streamlined or stable product.
I am not saying that Reaper is necessarily more streamlined and stable *BECAUSE* of fewer developers, but I am saying that adding a larger, more elaborate, or better-financed operation clearly does not ipso facto translate into a better software product in the DAW world.
Reaper is better than the more conventionally-produced DAW software, perhaps because of its different company structure or perhaps in spite of it. But to suggest that becoming more like Steinberg or Digi or Cakewalk would somehow improve the product is just silly.
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08-10-2007, 08:08 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reaper Fine Arts Department
Posts: 1,607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yep
How in God's name is Reaper going to become MORE streamlined and stable by getting more people to put their fingers in the pie? It is already on the bleeding edge of streamlined and stable DAWs...
All of the above is pure folly. It is based on the erroneous assumption that Reaper must ipso facto be inferior to other DAWs that have more expensive development costs. I think what everyone who is using Reaper has seen is that the massive corporate development teams that we have been paying thousands of dollars to over the years do NOT "tighten these puppies up," and do not necessarily produce more streamlined or stable product.
I am not saying that Reaper is necessarily more streamlined and stable *BECAUSE* of fewer developers, but I am saying that adding a larger, more elaborate, or better-financed operation clearly does not ipso facto translate into a better software product in the DAW world.
Reaper is better than the more conventionally-produced DAW software, perhaps because of its different company structure or perhaps in spite of it. But to suggest that becoming more like Steinberg or Digi or Cakewalk would somehow improve the product is just silly.
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Wonderfully put. The last thing we need is another bloated company selling bloated products, because it's the 'accepted' business model.
I was going to add something else to this.
I've got several cd's of programs, mostly older, that were sold on the premise of 'lines and lines of code' that will help the user, and features that we were told in earlier days took 'a long time' to build and develop.
Reaper's how big? 2.3mb?
And it already does at least half of the tasks of others? Without a fuss.
That tells me it's really efficiently coded, and puts to rest the fallacy that 'bigger is better.' I can't count the number of times i've had essential updates delayed in the past because the companies in question gave 'a lot of code' and 'complex development' as an excuse for delays. Reaper (IMHO) proves that's a load of rubbish, and its more to do with lazy coding on the part of others.
I wonder how many holes there are in bloated code, to justify a cd's worth?
And how much we've paid over the years for those holes?
Getting involved in using Reaper has been an eye opener on more than one level.
Alex.
Last edited by Alex Stone; 08-10-2007 at 08:39 AM.
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08-10-2007, 08:32 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the middle of the icecube.
Posts: 7,403
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Perhaps this will betray my naivety, perhaps its just me trying to seek the good, or best in folks.
I remember, many months ago, getting into it, reapercuriously, with folks on this forum. I loved this program and reveled in its potential. Nevertheless, I had several strong opinions and gripes. I was labelled Trollisman on more than one occasion, and had several knuckleheads on ignore. All this because, while I recognised the good in Reaper, I focused on the shortcomings most of which were enhanced by my own rigidity. There were many elements of the Reaper paradigm that made me want to pull my hair out ala grid settings - some remain.
I remember advice from one thread, though I don't remember who offered it (something to the effect of): "Perhaps you should abandon your Cubase workflow and spend a little time learning the Reaper defaults - and then season and tweak to taste."
Since then, I have come to discover that many of the earlier caveats have, indeed, become blessings enhancing my DAW experience, and for that I am grateful. Indeed many of my old qualms have turned out to be the night watchmen that led Majnun to his Layli...
Once there was this dude in love with a beautiful maiden. He sought after her 24/7, consumed with attaining her presence. One night his search stretched beyond curfew. Night watchmen discovered Majnun and began to chase him. Through the city Majnun ran trying to escape his assailants - cursing them as he went. Finally Majnun happened upon a wall, a dead end. With the Watchmen in pursuit he scaled the wall and flung himself to the other side. When Majnun picked himself up, he discovered that he had landed at the feet of his beloved Layli. With tears of joy, Majnun began to sing the praises of the night watchmen who had chased him to the goal of his desire.
One must judge of search by the standard of the Majnun of Love. It is related that one day they came upon Majnun sifting the dust, and his tears flowing down. They said, "What doest thou?" He said, "I seek for Layli." They cried, "Alas for thee! Layli is of pure spirit, and thou seekest her in the dust!" He said, "I seek her everywhere; haply somewhere I shall find her."
I hope that all of the Reaper curious - pros and hobbyists alike - will realise the Laylis they seek.
Good luck and many greetings.
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08-10-2007, 08:36 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,809
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here here.
It reminds of another reason I'm leaving sonar.
There is a big fat elephant sat in the corner in their code somewhere. No-one seems to know who wrote it, or where it is, or how to fix it, but there's something in there that just aint right. - the same is my experience with cubase.
Kind regards
Dave Rich
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08-10-2007, 08:58 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman
Perhaps this will betray my naivety, perhaps its just me trying to seek the good, or best in folks.
I remember, many months ago, getting into it, reapercuriously, with folks on this forum. I loved this program and reveled in its potential. Nevertheless, I had several strong opinions and gripes. I was labelled Trollisman on more than one occasion, and had several knuckleheads on ignore. All this because, while I recognised the good in Reaper, I focused on the shortcomings most of which were enhanced by my own rigidity. There were many elements of the Reaper paradigm that made me want to pull my hair out ala grid settings - some remain.
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Well, you did act a bit like a troll (and some acted a bit harsh to you), but i think it all has to do with the fact that people get REALLY excited about reaper. This is why people go on other forums and talk about it -- and its also why people sometimes see the potential but then immediately want to change it to what they want... it can sometimes lead to quite trollish behaviour. And seeing how you have changed your perspective and behaviour, makes me a bit more accomidating of reapercurious here.
it takes time, and every host needs adapting to. If you cant code your own host (or have the time to do so), then this is the inevitability.
And now look at tallisman -- he is a full on REAPERite, supporting and coming up with good ideas for the program. I think personally that REAPER benefits most from user-input, and although not everythign we want (see my FR list below) gets implemented, or in the way we want, or when we want, you can be confident that most if not all of these ideas are getting through and being considered. That is something i dont think you find with most other hosts.
When people are new to the forum, I try to always encourage free and open thought. But there is a way to go about this....
i remember some saying "reaper wont be pro until" or "reaper wont be worth anything until" or etc...
stuff like that is unnesscary. Stop putting reaper down, and get your ideas across without coming off like a dick
thats the way of wisdom here
(everywhere really)
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08-10-2007, 09:14 AM
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#29
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman
I remember, many months ago, getting into it, reapercuriously, with folks on this forum.
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Of course the big difference being that you were already here and posting especially helpful posts in the forum for quite some time before.
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08-10-2007, 10:17 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
Of course the big difference being that you were already here and posting especially helpful posts in the forum for quite some time before.
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indeed!!!!!!!!!
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08-10-2007, 10:25 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ocean mists
Posts: 860
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A couple other similarities across the forums. Manning hit the human nature thing of jealousies. Old Swami Guruji used to agree with where light is brightest, shadows are darkest. Do something great and forces trying to tear you down will be inevitable. He used to say that the way karma works out, if the cause is good, the detracting force backfires and accelerates the good work ahead even faster. The other thing, not as much from malice but ignorance, is a lack of respect for the learning curve and familiarity with a different workflow, as Tal was saying. A common element is the user of whatever program says “I’ve tried Reaper for a whole day now (between breaks on the company laptop) and it is carved-in-stone inferior to brand “X” because it can’t do something I’m used to.”
Almost always, there seems to be the lone voice coming back with “Yes it does and better. RTFM.”
Some of more angry backlash is definitely from denial, realizing $40 investment would have been better than a $700 investment. Guess it could be a hard truth to swallow for some.
John K
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08-10-2007, 10:48 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Kennedy
A couple other similarities across the forums. Manning hit the human nature thing of jealousies. Old Swami Guruji used to agree with where light is brightest, shadows are darkest. Do something great and forces trying to tear you down will be inevitable. He used to say that the way karma works out, if the cause is good, the detracting force backfires and accelerates the good work ahead even faster. The other thing, not as much from malice but ignorance, is a lack of respect for the learning curve and familiarity with a different workflow, as Tal was saying. A common element is the user of whatever program says “I’ve tried Reaper for a whole day now (between breaks on the company laptop) and it is carved-in-stone inferior to brand “X” because it can’t do something I’m used to.”
Almost always, there seems to be the lone voice coming back with “Yes it does and better. RTFM.”
Some of more angry backlash is definitely from denial, realizing $40 investment would have been better than a $700 investment. Guess it could be a hard truth to swallow for some.
John K
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excellent post, but this part really hits home i think
Some of more angry backlash is definitely from denial, realizing $40 investment would have been better than a $700 investment. Guess it could be a hard truth to swallow for some.
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08-10-2007, 11:15 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,279
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The current Reaper business model works. The non-commercial license and commercial license are a steel and the uncrippled unexpiring part of it stops the piracy because one can always use it for free if for some odd reason they cant afford the $40.
In this digital/Internet age, and with the drastic change in the recording indusrty, the old school business model based on stocks, shareholders, and quotas to meet every 3 months, doesnt seem to be working well at all and will always have a battle with piracy, crazy copy protection schemes and money as the main focus. The Reaper business model and policies avoids this crap all together. Justin has experienced both sides and his approach fits this modern time in the 21st century.
As Justin has stated, "It's all about making the best product". And he is doing exactly that.
...and we have a pretty amazing community here! Many would be surprised at some of the non posting lurkers here and the people jumping aboard behind the scenes.
Shane
__________________
"Music should be performed by the musician not by the engineer."
Michael Wagener 25th July 2005, 02:59 PM
Last edited by Shan; 08-10-2007 at 11:35 AM.
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08-10-2007, 11:23 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North of Boston
Posts: 649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Kennedy
Some of more angry backlash is definitely from denial, realizing $40 investment would have been better than a $700 investment. Guess it could be a hard truth to swallow for some.
John K
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Aint that the truth!
I'm sure I'm not alone on this board as being someone who has spent THOUSANDS of dollars on equipment and software over the years that didn't live up to the hype that preceded it and became rendered completely useless by something "new and improved" that followed it (which was then blindly purchased to help keep the corporations in business...).
I could cry about it or be a wanker troll in an attempt to justify those expenses and bring everyone else down in the process, but if anything, I think all of that is what makes me respect and appreciate Reaper and the community that has developed here. I haven't seen another product forum like this anywhere else. It makes the wankers stick out like a sore thumb. Sure, the program isn't perfect, but I think that most sane, mature people realize that nothing in life ever will be - especially something as subjective as a DAW.
If anything I would think people would be happy or even ECSTATIC that they can purchase a program that does what Reaper does for only $40/$200!!
It's a paradigm shift on many levels. And some people just aren't that bright.
hm
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