Accessibility request: text lables for fade-in/fade-out/crossfade shapes

[Scottsdale]

Hi,

Any chance that text labels for each fade-in, fade-out, and crossfade curve could be added in a future version? In particular, I'm thinking of the popup menus in Item Properties, and when setting default curves in Preferences -> Media Item Defaults.

Currently, screen reader users don't get any feedback in these popup menus, and - because the menus wrap - the ux involves a lot of trial and error.

Thanks in advance. Shout if there's any details I can provide that might help.

Scott

[Scottsdale]

Bumping this up because I'm still receiving regular feedback about the current UX from screen reader users.

[mattymc2]

Yep me too. This is a pain every time I have to use it which is kinda often.

Originally Posted by Scottsdale

Bumping this up because I'm still receiving regular feedback about the current UX from screen reader users.

[mschnell]

Wong Forum -> Feature requests would be more appropriate

-Michael

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Wong Forum -> Feature requests would be more appropriate

This isn't a feature request. It's essentially a bug report of an unintentionally bad UX.

[mschnell]

Did you read -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=36653 ?

-Michael

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Did you read -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=36653 ?

I did, yep.

- The title is meaningful.
- The info that Justin would need to reproduce this is present.
- Platform/version/hardware is irrelevant because the UX is identical across the board.
- A step by step recipe to reproduce wasn't included originally because Justin won't need it, but seeing as you asked, I'll demonstrate.

* Steps how to reproduce:
1. Go blind.
2. Relearn how to use a computer with screen reader software.
3. Install any version of Reaper on any supported platform, then go to Item Properties and pop open the menu to choose a fade shape.

* Description of what I'd expect to happen and what happens instead:
- I'd expect the button that pops open the menu to be labeled. Currently, it isn't. A text label for such buttons would solve this.
- I'd expect to be able to differentiate between menu items. Currently this isn't possible. Text labels for each shape would solve this.

So you see, in this case a recipe didn't add anything, it just took longer to read.

Is this helping anything get fixed for anyone? I suspect not...

[mschnell]

In fact I am not aware of "screen reader" implications.

Of course it's absolutely viable to do software in a way that blind users are support as good as possible. But calling such omission of certainly not trivial implementaion details a bug is not strictly obvious.

-Michael

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by mschnell

calling such omission of certainly not trivial implementaion details a bug is not strictly obvious.

From the "How to post a bug" sticky thread:
"*What is a REAPER bug anyway?

+ Native Reaper functions misbehaving"

I dunno what to tell you man. A decent amount of issues have been fixed as a direct result of previous posts here. Justin has never shown any concern over the reporting nor the forum choice. FWIW, if that were to change, I'd adapt accordingly, but until then, you'll find me loitering around these parts with a small but potent baggy of native Reaper functions that appear to be misbehaving.

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

Originally Posted by Scottsdale

From the "How to post a bug" sticky thread:
"*What is a REAPER bug anyway?

+ Native Reaper functions misbehaving"

I dunno what to tell you man. A decent amount of issues have been fixed as a direct result of previous posts here. Justin has never shown any concern over the reporting nor the forum choice. FWIW, if that were to change, I'd adapt accordingly, but until then, you'll find me loitering around these parts with a small but potent baggy of native Reaper functions that appear to be misbehaving.

Still, it is a request for additional features in regards of something already existing. There are a lot of features in Reaper that miss some stuff, sometimes because it was missing in the first place, or isn't implemented yet or sometimes because it wasn't asked for. But you can't call them all bugs, if in reality, they're not there to be bugs in the first place.

A bug would be, if the already implemented stuff isn't working(or crashing Reaper). But if it's missing things, these missing things are requests for more features, aka Feature Request(which also includes parts for already existing features).

And tbh, I would love to see this in the Feature-Request-forum, as accessibility is a real important thing and I think, more people would contribute more ideas to your request, if they would see it for what it is: in the Feature-Request-Forum.
This is also, to my experience, the best place for discussion of how to do stuff, collecting more ideas where Reaper lacks accessibility.
And many people involve themselves in such discussions, helping the devs see all aspects of a feature asked, which is the great potential in the Feature-Request-forum.
In this Bugreports-thread, you are the only one to discuss it, unfortunately.


Asking at a bakery for an electric drill might work, but usually doesn't. Even if Justin is frequenting this bakery

[ivansc]

Hate to say it, Scott but they are right, I am pretty sure you will get a quicker response posting this as a FR, especially if you make the reason for your needing it completely unabiguous.

I have a blind friend who uses reaper & he has already commented on a couple of similar issues that would never have occurred to me as a sighted person. Suspect you have similar issues.

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by mespotine

There are a lot of features in Reaper that miss some stuff, sometimes because it was missing in the first place, or isn't implemented yet or sometimes because it wasn't asked for. But you can't call them all bugs, if in reality, they're not there to be bugs in the first place.

I'm not calling them all bugs, but I'm convinced that this one counts as a bug, because it leads to a UX that clearly isn't what Cockos had in mind when they came up with the design.

Originally Posted by mespotine

A bug would be if the already implemented stuff isn't working

Like if a menu popped up and every icon was blank, for example?

Originally Posted by mespotine

I would love to see this in the Feature-Request-forum, as accessibility is a real important thing and I think, more people would contribute more ideas to your request, if they would see it for what it is: in the Feature-Request-Forum.
This is also, to my experience, the best place for discussion of how to do stuff, collecting more ideas where Reaper lacks accessibility.
And many people involve themselves in such discussions, helping the devs see all aspects of a feature asked, which is the great potential in the Feature-Request-forum.

If the solution wasn't a simple one, or if some debate/discussion was likely to lead to a better implementation then I'd agree. I've posted a few things like that as FRs. This isn't that, though. This is just icons requiring accompanying text values, and history suggests that Justin already does a great job of nailing these types of requests in batches without input, so - for oversights with obvious solutions like this one - why complicate the process?

Originally Posted by mespotine

In this Bugreports-thread, you are the only one to discuss it, unfortunately.

That was the intent, yeah. When I posted it, I wasn't convinced that an oversight with a simple solution required discussion. I'm still not, tbh. Sorry to seem so bullish about it. FWIW, I appreciated your post man.

Originally Posted by mespotine

Asking at a bakery for an electric drill might work, but usually doesn't. Even if Justin is frequenting this bakery

I don't suppose you'd happen to know which bakery Justin shops at? Maybe I can bribe my way in. Everyone loves free cake, right?

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Hate to say it, Scott but they are right, I am pretty sure you will get a quicker response posting this as a FR, especially if you make the reason for your needing it completely unabiguous.

I'll try the next few things as FRs. Time will tell.

[azslow3]

@Michael:
Have you tried to use this forum or REAPER with a screen reader?

@All: as Scott has gently explained, when you open some menu in REAPER and it is completely blank (no text, no picture, but you still can select items), will you call proposal to fix that "a future request" or a "bug report"?

@Scott: Sibiac 0.16 should audition currently selected fade in/out curve types in the item property dialog, I will check tomorrow what can be done for the context menu.

[blindwiz]

Originally Posted by Scottsdale

Hi,

Any chance that text labels for each fade-in, fade-out, and crossfade curve could be added in a future version? In particular, I'm thinking of the popup menus in Item Properties, and when setting default curves in Preferences -> Media Item Defaults.

Currently, screen reader users don't get any feedback in these popup menus, and - because the menus wrap - the ux involves a lot of trial and error.

Thanks in advance. Shout if there's any details I can provide that might help.

Scott

This corner of reaper got hot real quick.

I guess we should stick to making these FRs in the future. I like checking that forum out anyways, a lot of neat ideas by others.

[mschnell]

Of course such accessibility is a very viable feature Reaper should feature as perfect as possible, and I assume it will be supported by close to all forum members.

-Michael

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by azslow3

@Scott: Sibiac 0.16 should audition currently selected fade in/out curve types in the item property dialog, I will check tomorrow what can be done for the context menu.

Thanks dude, appreciate you taking a run at this. I'm away from home for a few days, but will test the Sibiac addition as soon as I get back.

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I assume it will be supported by close to all forum members.

I understand that assumption. In principal, yes. In practice, not so much. For some reason a principal - however strong - doesn't necessarily translate into actual votes.

[ivansc]

Maybe if the FR emphasisises the WHY aspect of this it really will encourage people to vote.
I have a number of impediments that affect my ability to make music, sadly none of which can be helped by changing something in Reaper, but I will be 100% behind anything that is suggested that would help others with similar problems....

Anyone up for writing a FR? I am pretty sure the devs would get on it quickly if it is easily do-able.

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Maybe if the FR emphasisises the WHY aspect of this it really will encourage people to vote.

Saddle up partner, we're heading off road and this next part might be bumpy! Past experience tells me that there's some truth to what you're saying, yep. However, past experience also suggests that "do the right thing for these blind folks" is a card that can only be played so many times before people on mass start to become desensitized to the principal. To give you an example, if Reaper 6 were to introduce a game-changing feature that was entirely inaccessible, I'd lean on the WHY aspect while discussion of that new feature was in full flow to raise awareness that the blinkies have accidentally been shut out of the party. But - here's the thing - when it comes to advocating for accessibility among a small number of people, timing is everything. If I've already been leaning heavily on the WHY aspect in the months running up to that new feature, the word blind will have significantly less impact. When you play the WHY card too often, the reaction moves from "damn, we didn't know the blinkies were shut out of the party, that isn't ok", and it becomes more like "urgh, guys, it's starting to rain, someone should probably pop outside to round up the blinkies. Any volunteers?" I appreciate that this point of view will likely seem dreadfully jaded to anyone who's new to accessibility, but it's not just the pontificating of a cynical old sod, I've got 15 years of tugging accessibility forward across 3 DAWs and a ton of non-musical contexts under my belt to back it up. Of those DAWs, Reaper is unquestionably my favourite, and both the users and Cockos themselves have been wonderfully receptive, but I don't buy that the world works differently here to how it works everywhere else.

Originally Posted by ivansc

I have a number of impediments that affect my ability to make music, sadly none of which can be helped by changing something in Reaper, but I will be 100% behind anything that is suggested that would help others with similar problems....

Good to know, thanks man.

Originally Posted by ivansc

Anyone up for writing a FR? I am pretty sure the devs would get on it quickly if it is easily do-able.

I'm open to experimenting with FRs when it comes to bigger issues that will require more work from Cockos. For me though, this is still just a simple bug with a simple solution. Again, sorry to be so immovable. Hopefully the responses above go some way to explain why I'm at where I'm at with it.

BTW, it's probably worth pointing out that I'd love to be proved wrong about all of this.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Scottsdale

For some reason a principal - however strong - doesn't necessarily translate into actual votes.

That is why, generally, negative votes to any subject should not be considered as a violation of the rights of the requester, but do express a viable statement. Non-voters just are not to be counted.

-Michael

[azslow3]

Originally Posted by Scottsdale

Thanks dude, appreciate you taking a run at this. I'm away from home for a few days, but will test the Sibiac addition as soon as I get back.

And by that time I will upload 0.17 which at least on my computer already audition current selection and menus (for items and in preferences). You would probably suggest better names for shapes, I have called them "Fast 1", "Fast 2", "Smooth 1", etc.

Note that this part, while using "sibiac technology", is not using Sibiac overlays. So the result is NVDA native.

@other. The situation with accessibility in modern software is much worse then you can imagine. I was shocked when I have understood that.

Together with general closeness of related community (as with any community which is forced by something) and the fact that mostly used Screen Reader cost more then ProTools (even for sighted developers which may want check compatibility), I do no think that is going to improve.

May be concrete persons (in this case John or Justin) spend a bit of time to fix some problems. That I hope can and will happened.

If someone want to understand the problematic: start using REAPER (or other software) without mouse, as the next step imagine all icons are black. To really dive, install NVDA (it is free) and turn off the monitor.
And please do not judge what is "a bug" and what is "an FR" before really doing this. Are you jumping into REAPER on Mac/Linux bugs reports, immediately claiming "that is not a bug" just because you do not use Mac/Linux? I guess not.

[Scottsdale]

Originally Posted by azslow3

And by that time I will upload 0.17 which at least on my computer already audition current selection and menus (for items and in preferences). You would probably suggest better names for shapes, I have called them "Fast 1", "Fast 2", "Smooth 1", etc.

I'm back. Hit me with 0.17 whenever you're ready and I'll start collecting feedback about names for the shapes.

[azslow3]

It is at http://www.azslow.com/index.php?topic=372.0
Sorry, I do not have permanent link to the file and so direct link will be outdated fast.

As a "bonus", this version has GTune chromatic tuner support.

Also check your other thread, I have uploaded my first OSARA mod.