Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER Feature Requests

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2018, 01:05 PM   #41
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 385
Default

Most of these features are useful even for those of us who are not ME's, but who master our own things now and then. The ID3 tags would be useful to nearly everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
To summarize my myriad of mastering specific feature requests for REAPER, I am making a singular post here.

I have willingly spent hundreds of dollars on having scripts made for things in my specific mastering workflow but there are still some fundamental mastering focused things that REAPER is missing and cannot be scripted.

This is why mastering engineers like myself and others still prefer to use apps like WaveLab, HOFA CD-Burn.DDP.Master, Sonoris DDP Creator, SoundBlade, Triumph etc to finalize the mastering process after all or a majority of the audio processing is done in REAPER, which REAPER is excellent at by the way. I was using Pro Tools before REAPER and REAPER runs circles around Pro Tools and most other DAWs in this area.

I also think REAPER is VERY close to being the ultimate cross-platform all-in-one mastering DAW but I think most users want something that is a little more close to usable out of the box and not everybody is going to invest the amount of time that some of us have to get REAPER close to an all-in-one mastering DAW.

So, I am not looking for additional scripts to do the things Iím going to mention. I think Iíve exhausted the custom scripts route.

Also, the things Iím going to mention need to be natively supported and maintained as we canít rely on a 3rd party script that could break at any time and bring workflow to a halt for such critical tasks.

We need REAPER to have a dedicated mastering mode similar to how Studio One or the WaveLab montage operates.

We should be able to render files from a normal REAPER project and have a sub-project created that is mastering focused with a specific layout and feature set.

Again, the WaveLab montage and Studio One project mode are ideal models here. To full-time mastering engineers, this is a HUGE deal though I can see why non-mastering engineers donít grasp the importance of some these things. 

There is a reason by apps like WaveLab, SoundBlade, Sequoia, Pryamix etc are still in development and still widely used by mastering engineers, but none of them are the IDEAL solution for one reason or another. Sequoia and Pryamix are pretty close but are PC only. WaveLab is what I use because itís great for the final steps but it is not good for the analog playback/capture like REAPER is. REAPER is in a position to take the lead and be the ďgo toĒ for mastering engineers but itís missing some mastering focused things.

The new mastering mode would include the following things:

1) Native metering docked in the GUI that shows LUFS, spectrogram, RME, peaks, true-peaks, frequencies, bit-depth, and other mastering focused metering. The way that WaveLab and S1 have a native docked metering section that is tied to the start/stop of the transport is essential for mastering. Relying 100% on 3rd party plugins or even native plugins inserted somewhere in the chain is not an ideal approach.

2) A native timecode counter that can show you things like CD track time, item start time, total project time etc. When we need to find 1:38 on track 5, the current transport timecode option doesnít cut it.

3) Ability to enter in the project details ONE time, and have it pushed to applicable metadata and CD-Text fields. When the new rendered files are populated in order to the mastering project mode, track ID makers should be created and named based on the rendered file name and this name should be used for CD-Text track name, and ID3 v1 and v2 metadata track/song title.

We also need a place to enter the album title which is pushed to CD-Text and metadata. We need a way to enter the ISRC code for the first track and have the rest of the ISRC codes be increased by one digit which is probably already possible in a script but something native and integrated is needed. The track number/track total metadata can be automatically obtained from the project itself as REAPER should be able to tell how many tracks there are in a session and what track number a given song/track is.

4) The newly created mastering project mode should be two large tracks that take up most of the screen aside from the native docked metering and and project info tabs we need. More tracks can be added if needed and when the initial project is created, the files should be staggered between tracks 1 and 2.

5) The newly created mastering project mode should automatically be set to CD frames on the timeline and there should be a native command to quantize all CD track markers to the nearest CD frame, as well as a mode that only allows markers to be placed on CD frames.

6) The rendered WAV, mp3, AAC etc files should have the ability with a preset to always include all applicable ID3 metadata, as well as ISRC codes in the AXML chuck via the EBU specs.

7) We should be able to render a new full WAV of a project to lock in plugins and have REAPER recreate a new mastering project mode project with all the markers and info carried over so we end up with a new session with all plugins fully rendered but the data and makers are all still identical to the project it was created from.

8) We should also be able to create a duplicate project at a new sample rate and choose a new source audio file (or files) to be the source file because many mastering engineers prefer to use their own 3rd party sample rate conversion app like Weiss Saracon or iZotope RX.

So, ability to create an identical project at a new sample rate with all the markers and data 100% the same but using a new source file needs to happen. WaveLab calls it ďCustom Montage CopyĒ

9) We need to be able to tell the new mastering project mode where side B (and C, D etc for double albums) of a vinyl release starts to that in one project, we can render a single WAV of each side of the album, have the generic markers embedded in the WAV files, as well as produce a PDF report of each side of the vinyl that says where all the track markers are. The marker times for side B (and higher) of the PDF need to be compensated because they need to match the WAV files which start at 0:00 but side B might start at 18 minutes for example in the actual project. WaveLab and HOFA can do this now (thanks to my request ).

10) Track markers need to have ability to be bound to an item start, item end, or audio samples of an item so that when the item moves, the makers do too. We also need the ability to manually send a marker name to the CD-Text/name and vise versa for when edits are needed.

11) CD-Text needs to have an option to be forced to adhere to ASCII characters or allow anything.

12) More simple/reliable/streamlined DDP export. Because of all the limitations listed above, I have not actually rendered a DDP in REAPER but from what I hear, it's not a great experience unless maybe you install some additional 3rd party scripts which again, can go bad/missing etc at any time.

I expect that I and some other mastering engineers will add to this as time goes on but this is the essence of it.
drichard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 01:05 PM   #42
WyattRice
Human being with feelings
 
WyattRice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,824
Default

+1 to all what MRMJP has described.
WyattRice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 01:06 PM   #43
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drichard View Post
Most of these features are useful even for those of us who are not ME's, but who master our own things now and then. The ID3 tags would be useful to nearly everyone.
I won't argue that
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 01:07 PM   #44
istewart
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Great Barrington, MA
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
So close, yet so far away in some ways.
Indeed. Without metadata, DDP, etc. support the benefits of the render queue are kind of lost. Blarg, this just makes me want these features to be implemented more!

Last edited by istewart; 08-09-2018 at 01:28 PM.
istewart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 02:19 PM   #45
loji
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 11
Default Reaper mastering DAW

Yes 100%.

At Masterdisk I used Sequioa, and Pyramix.... now I use Reaper for most functions, but keep a PC with Sequioa running.

Needs for Native Reaper Mastering

- default set-up to CD frames.
- snap to CD frames (enable/disable)
- NEW marker type. (CD/Track Index marker)
- Native DDP support
- Global Dither option
- new VIEW window / Meta-data editor
- Track Markers include CDText support
- MetaData includes ISRC on all exports (MP3/FLAC/.WAV/DDP...)



There are a few different parts to daily mastering.

[Ingest] -> [Process] -> [Edit] -> [Authoring]

Reapers weakest link is authoring. The rest works rather well.

INGEST: Reaper supports multiple formats/mixed sample-rates, etc..)
PROCESS : Reaper support itemFX + extensive routing.
EDIT : Reaper has excellent crossfade editors, multiple lanes, etc..
AUTHORING : Reaper needs multiple scripts to properly Author, and still doesn't support any type of Meta-data tagging.


A new type of Marker is needed specifically for Authoring use. the SWS Markers to Regions works .. but then you need to erase old markers first, regions then have to be renamed to the correct CD Text, etc..

I'd like to use regular markers for notes (click?) (check this spot..) etc..
Track ID Markers for CD Start markers (yellow), Each Track ID Marker has a corresponding entry in the Metadata ID Window (ISRC/name/etc..)

Render (either files or DDP/Bin/ISO) now creates individual files based off the Track ID Markers inheriting the names/metadata from the Metadata Window.
loji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 02:37 PM   #46
loji
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 11
Default Reaper mastering DAW

Yes 100%.

At Masterdisk I used Sequioa, and Pyramix.... now I use Reaper for most functions, but keep a PC with Sequioa running.

Needs for Native Reaper Mastering

- default set-up to CD frames.
- snap to CD frames (enable/disable)
- NEW marker type. (CD/Track Index marker)
- Native DDP support
- Global Dither option
- new VIEW window / Meta-data editor
- Track Markers include CDText support
- MetaData includes ISRC on all exports (MP3/FLAC/.WAV/DDP...)



There are a few different parts to daily mastering.

[Ingest] -> [Process] -> [Edit] -> [Authoring]

Reapers weakest link is authoring. The rest works rather well.

INGEST: Reaper supports multiple formats/mixed sample-rates, etc..)
PROCESS : Reaper support itemFX + extensive routing.
EDIT : Reaper has excellent crossfade editors, multiple lanes, etc..
AUTHORING : Reaper needs multiple scripts to properly Author, and still doesn't support any type of Meta-data tagging.


A new type of Marker is needed specifically for Authoring use. the SWS Markers to Regions works .. but then you need to erase old markers first, regions then have to be renamed to the correct CD Text, etc..

I'd like to use regular markers for notes (click?) (check this spot..) etc..
Track ID Markers for CD Start markers (yellow), Each Track ID Marker has a corresponding entry in the Metadata ID Window (ISRC/name/etc..)

Render (either files or DDP/Bin/ISO) now creates individual files based off the Track ID Markers inheriting the names/metadata from the Metadata Window.
loji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 04:01 PM   #47
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loji View Post
Yes 100%.

At Masterdisk I used Sequioa, and Pyramix.... now I use Reaper for most functions, but keep a PC with Sequioa running.
Excellent post, thanks for the feedback here. This seems to be a common story which is my entire point of this thread and it's nice to see so many mastering professionals chiming in and to see they are already using REAPER as well for at least part of the process.

I think "authoring" is a good term I've been failing to use so thanks for that.

It's been hard to explain the features needed to a majority of people in the REAPER community that may not be familiar with mastering, or at least this part of the process. It's more than just the stereo bus processing.

It would be like me saying that the MIDI editing in Pro Tools (prior to PT 12 at least) is more than fine and to just use workarounds.

There are specific needs, features, workflows etc. that no amount of (reasonable or extreme) scripting is going to solve.
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 09:59 PM   #48
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 5,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
There are specific needs, features, workflows etc. that no amount of (reasonable or extreme) scripting is going to solve.
This to me suggests, that there are certain aspects of the workflow that need "actions" (i.e. entries in the list of available native Reaper Actions) that are not available as a (scriptable) combination of other actions.

Of course it would be a plus (i.e. a necessity for the mastering guys) if those would be implemented in the basic executable.

Hence a target of this thread might be to find the shortest possible list of such actions doing the most-possible basic operations to allow for scripters to use them to define a desired workflow.

-Michael
__________________
www.boa-sorte.de
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 01:04 AM   #49
Travesty
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 305
Default

I'm a sound designer by trade, but also a I also produce and master in my spare time.

I don't see a lot of the things being mentioned being specific to mastering, they are equally relevant to game and film sound design, where assets need to be produced in a systematic fashion, processed and named correctly with metadata, at specific sample rates and saved in the correct place.


I think that having more focus on systematic rendering, and proper metadata support, including adding and editing bwf at render, isn't as niche as you would think.

The other thing that would help is to have more control over the auto generated subprojects, a template system probably. So a mastering or asset preset can be created.

I think we should be enabling all these requests, but in a way that makes them also relevant to other disciplines.
Travesty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 04:44 AM   #50
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 6,904
Default

+1 to native metadata for export
__________________
Reaper x64, win 8.1
G-Sun.no - Music Blog - My music
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 05:39 AM   #51
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
I'm a sound designer by trade, but also a I also produce and master in my spare time.

I don't see a lot of the things being mentioned being specific to mastering, they are equally relevant to game and film sound design, where assets need to be produced in a systematic fashion, processed and named correctly with metadata, at specific sample rates and saved in the correct place.


I think that having more focus on systematic rendering, and proper metadata support, including adding and editing bwf at render, isn't as niche as you would think.

The other thing that would help is to have more control over the auto generated subprojects, a template system probably. So a mastering or asset preset can be created.

I think we should be enabling all these requests, but in a way that makes them also relevant to other disciplines.
Thanks for the feedback. I certainly didn't meant to ignore game and film sound designers, I just don't know enough about it to speak specifically about it.

"more control over the auto generated subprojects, a template system probably. So a mastering or asset preset can be created." is definitely on the right track.

I just think for it all to be done properly, we can't rely on a ton of scripting. It needs to work a certain way "out of the box" for any more people to get on board with REAPER, and also for a more stable and elegant experience by those who do use REAPER now.
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 05:45 AM   #52
Travesty
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 305
Default

Yeah I agree, and I don't mean to step on your toes, or imply that you are ignoring sound design. I was just pointing out that some of the issues that are coming up, are also issues for us in game / film post
Travesty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 05:49 AM   #53
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
Yeah I agree, and I don't mean to step on your toes, or imply that you are ignoring sound design. I was just pointing out that some of the issues that are coming up, are also issues for us in game / film post
All good. I think most power REAPER users and even some moderate users have taken scripting about as far as it can go and it's time for some native feature support in these areas.

That is IF the developers want to do it but as I mentioned, there is a reason that apps like WaveLab, Sequoia/Samplitde, Audition, SoundBlade, Pyramix, SAIDE, DSP Quattrro and others exist and they have unique feature sets in the exporting/authoring and other mastering/broadcast/game/film audio needs.
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 06:08 AM   #54
JSMastering
Human being with feelings
 
JSMastering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
I think that having more focus on systematic rendering, and proper metadata support, including adding and editing bwf at render, isn't as niche as you would think.
I know basically nothing about game/film sound design except that it's come up a few times when I was trying to see if Reaper would do the things we're talking about. So, apparently they're related.

I really think that it can all boil down to expanding Regions, Metadata, Export, and either subprojects or source/destination in the (relatively) short term and metering in the longer term.

I'm not convinced it's that complex for how talented and dedicated the developers seem.
JSMastering is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 06:33 AM   #55
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,197
Default

As long as point #5 isn't made default those seem like fine requests.

When I'm in mastering mode, the big things I need to go 3rd party for are authoring disk images for DVDA and bluray. Since Reaper decided to support mastering focused formats like DDP for CD and even mp3 for portable quality audio, I think it would make sense to get up to speed with the modern format options of DVDA and bluray.

Everything else is on point to a high level. (Not to suggest arguing against any feature requests to make something better.) The features that are truly missing - can't work around them with extra steps, scripts, or other add ons - are rendering to DVDA iso and bluray iso. We're good on the 30 some year old CD format!
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 08:28 AM   #56
tikihorea
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 11
Default

I'm all for reaper getting a mastering mode. OR it just allowing the user to turn on mastering-related options in the Preferences menus.
tikihorea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:01 AM   #57
JSMastering
Human being with feelings
 
JSMastering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
As long as point #5 isn't made default those seem like fine requests.

When I'm in mastering mode, the big things I need to go 3rd party for are authoring disk images for DVDA and bluray. Since Reaper decided to support mastering focused formats like DDP for CD and even mp3 for portable quality audio, I think it would make sense to get up to speed with the modern format options of DVDA and bluray.

Everything else is on point to a high level. (Not to suggest arguing against any feature requests to make something better.) The features that are truly missing - can't work around them with extra steps, scripts, or other add ons - are rendering to DVDA iso and bluray iso. We're good on the 30 some year old CD format!
What is your workflow for DDP? I haven't found one that works well.

I'm much less concerned about DVDA and Blu-Ray...I think I own 3 disks between the formats. But, yeah, that would be nice too in case it comes up.
JSMastering is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:03 AM   #58
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 21,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSMastering View Post
What is your workflow for DDP? I haven't found one that works well.
FWIW Hofa is what I currently use. It has it's caveats but I've used it on a couple projects.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:17 AM   #59
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
FWIW Hofa is what I currently use. It has it's caveats but I've used it on a couple projects.
HOFA is fine for DDP assembly specifically, and I really them them as a company. I use their DDP Player Maker nearly every day.

What it's not good at is a way to layout and tweak all master formats of various sample rates, and render all the master files you may need for a given project.

Ideally you do the EP/album layout one time and then then render any and all master formats. Having to a 2nd setup and data entry just for DDP rendering is not really an option if you are mastering every day.
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:21 AM   #60
jamesp
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSMastering View Post
What is your workflow for DDP? I haven't found one that works well.
I place track markers by ear (Shift-M) and then add CD-Text in the marker editor.

My workflow changed dramatically recently after I found my biggest client produced a spreadsheet for their internal use with all the data like titles and ISRC's. I get them to supply me the spreadsheet and then add an extra set of cells with the information automatically reformatted in the way that Reaper requires. I can then cut and paste from the spreadsheet into the marker editor.

Once the DDP has been rendered I use Wyatt Rice's DDP to Cue Writer program to extract individual files. These can be used to both check that the DDP has been written as expected and also as files that can be sent to the digital distributor.

One area that I would like to see improved would be the ability to import and check DDP's.
__________________
JRP Music - audio mastering and restoration. http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/JRPMus/
jamesp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 12:27 PM   #61
JSMastering
Human being with feelings
 
JSMastering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 29
Default

FWIW, I was specifically asking @serr, because s/he seems to think Reaper alone is fine for DDP (which would imply metadata as well, at least to a degree), which as not been my experience. Frankly, I'd like to be wrong and just have missed something.
JSMastering is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 12:29 PM   #62
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 21,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSMastering View Post
FWIW, I was specifically asking @serr, because s/he seems to think Reaper alone is fine for DDP (which would imply metadata as well, at least to a degree), which as not been my experience. Frankly, I'd like to be wrong and just have missed something.
I'm not Serr nor did I read his post but no, IMHO (and in reality) reaper DDP compared to Hofa aren't even in the same ballpark. If it were anywhere close (of which I checked IIRC), I'd not have immediately purchased $150 worth Hofa software right after that check.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 01:01 PM   #63
jamesp
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSMastering View Post
FWIW, I was specifically asking @serr, because s/he seems to think Reaper alone is fine for DDP (which would imply metadata as well, at least to a degree), which as not been my experience. Frankly, I'd like to be wrong and just have missed something.
Like @serr I'm also using Reaper alone for DDP which is why I replied. Once you are familiar with it and use the correct settings (frame rate/BPM/ruler) it isn't that hard although I'd agree that the metadata side of things could be better.

A single marker format that could be used to render multiple file types with metadata would be a great first start. A dedicated metadata dialog would be even better.
__________________
JRP Music - audio mastering and restoration. http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/JRPMus/
jamesp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 03:51 PM   #64
JSMastering
Human being with feelings
 
JSMastering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
Like @serr I'm also using Reaper alone for DDP which is why I replied. Once you are familiar with it and use the correct settings (frame rate/BPM/ruler) it isn't that hard although I'd agree that the metadata side of things could be better.

A single marker format that could be used to render multiple file types with metadata would be a great first start. A dedicated metadata dialog would be even better.
Okay, sadly...I'm not missing anything.
JSMastering is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 03:49 AM   #65
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 6,904
Default

A few thoughts:

A meta-date window seems very welcome.

Isn't subprojects very good for compiling CD/vinyl?
__________________
Reaper x64, win 8.1
G-Sun.no - Music Blog - My music
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 07:31 AM   #66
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSMastering View Post
FWIW, I was specifically asking @serr, because s/he seems to think Reaper alone is fine for DDP (which would imply metadata as well, at least to a degree), which as not been my experience. Frankly, I'd like to be wrong and just have missed something.
DDP only applies to the version of the master for the CD. It's more of an aside. No dedicated DDP app is going to do anything more for the actual master. It wouldn't even be involved.

I produce a master from the separate mixes in Reaper. Making the proper timed segues and minding any overall levels between songs as you do. I render to 24 bit FLAC files. These are the full quality final masters.

I render the 24 whole 24 bit final master to a single file and then convert it to 44.1k with SOX in XLD. Open the Reaper session again, flip the sample rate to 44.1k, replace the 96k file with the converted one, set frames to 75. Dither the 24 bit program to 16 bit.

Make the track indexes as close to the right spots as possible while keeping them on the 75 fps boundaries and also trying to still hit zero crossings (for program that segues like live recordings). Put in the markers to make the index and pause points, label them to get the +text song titles, label the last one for the artist/album.


Alright, so I needed XLD for SOX. (File this one under "because I can". If I only had the sample rate conversion algorithm from Reaper, I wouldn't consider it a problem.)

I use a 3rd party app (Tag) to write the metadata for the final master 24 bit FLAC files. I use XLD again to make SD versions of the final masters (24 bit, 44.1k) in FLAC and ALAC. Metadata is preserved and copied from the HD FLAC files.

The DDP file set from Reaper for the CD copy is a done deal.

I make 320k CBR mp3s from the 24-44.1 SD master.

At this point, the 3rd party app use is pretty small and simple. It would be great to have the metadata features in Reaper but it isn't really a big deal. I could technically save a step and make track indexes conform to 75fps boundaries for the final master to begin with but it feels lazy to me to compromise the actual full quality final master to save a few minutes.

The DVDA and bluray iso images are where the ultra expansive authoring suites come in or there's another hour or so of screwing around to do. These disc based formats for HD and surround audio are still very much a thing (and quite a bit newer than CD). Disc based home theater systems are still sold that can only work with discs.

Disc Welder Chrome for DVDA.
This old unfinished (now shareware) app is a PITA but you get results at the end. It's this or pay around $1200.
tsMuxeR for bluray.
Crude freeware. Again, the other choice start at around $1200.

Discwelder needs separate mono files for each channel but it needs to be single files for the entire album. Then you make the indexes in the app. That's a PITA.
tsMuxeR needs a single multichanel file for the entire album. Again, make the indexes (chapters) in the app. Less of a PITA but still more work.

If I could just render to DVDA and bluray iso from Reaper just like you can render to a DDP file set it would cut the big chunk out of the workflow. DDP is only for the CD version and it just works. The other stuff (even metadata) is a higher priority.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 08:17 AM   #67
mpr3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 10
Default

Where is the 2018 market for DVD-A and Blueray? That's gotta be a niche market as most high resolution masters today end up going to vinyl, HDTracks or some MQA streamer.

And while you'd think DDPs should be long gone since cars are no longer made with CD players (unless optioned), many mastering engineers like myself continue to pump them out weekly because artists live and die at their merch table.

Who would of thought 20 years ago that the lowly Redbook CD would be kept alive well into the 2020s simply because artists have to sell something tangible in order to pay rent?!
mpr3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 09:37 AM   #68
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr3 View Post
And while you'd think DDPs should be long gone since cars are no longer made with CD players (unless optioned), many mastering engineers like myself continue to pump them out weekly because artists live and die at their merch table.
Yes. I find that many smaller independent artists are still making at least a small number of CDs depending on the demographic of their audiences.

Aside from that though, I personally LOVE delivering masters as DDP with HOFA DDP Player Maker for clients to initially approve masters. Unless it's a single song project, this is how I deliver the initial master for approval. Then I provide all the alternate formats once it's approved.

I do it because it basically eliminates and user induced playback issues due to incorrect media player settings such as EQ, song spacing/crossfades etc. and they can easily also view the CD-Text Info which in WaveLab I transpose to ID3 metadata automatically.

It's just a great way to approve an EP or album project and make sure everything is exactly as it should be. Also, HOFA DDP Player Maker is super easy to use and is very stable.
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 09:57 AM   #69
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 21,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
It's just a great way to approve an EP or album project and make sure everything is exactly as it should be.
I wholeheartedly agree. WYSOOIWYG - what you sign off on is what you get.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 10:02 AM   #70
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
WYSOOIWYG
I like that. And what I meant to convey is that even if CDs ever officially die, I would probably continue to deliver masters for initial approval as DDP because of how foolproof it is compared to the variables of a media player.

And also, even though CDs are supposedly dying and things are also shifting to a singles market again, mastering engineers will still have the need for a mastering type layout for EPs and albums.
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 10:09 AM   #71
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 21,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
I like that. And what I meant to convey is that even if CDs ever officially die, I would probably continue to deliver masters for initial approval as DDP because of how foolproof it is compared to the variables of a media player.
Makes sense and I agree. I really like the foolproofness.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 03:52 PM   #72
mpr3
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
Aside from that though, I personally LOVE delivering masters as DDP with HOFA DDP Player Maker for clients to initially approve masters. Unless it's a single song project, this is how I deliver the initial master for approval. Then I provide all the alternate formats once it's approved.
Yep, I love Hofa as well. And I rarely get anyone who needs help getting it working which is amazing.

Even without mentioning it, most people end up click on the 'disc' icons next to each song, which of course gets them the individual files with ISRCs embedded.

On a side note, wasn't there a rumor about Izotope developing a stand alone mastering DAW based on Ozone and RX?

I could see that having the potential to be special, but I doubt anyone is going to top Reaper's CPU efficiency and general workflow customizations.

I still cant believe how many 96khz Aqua instances can be run in Reaper compared to PT. Reaper makes PT seem broken.
mpr3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 07:27 PM   #73
Scoox
Human being with feelings
 
Scoox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Wuxi, China
Posts: 236
Default

I'm reading through this thread and I'm out of my depth. I can't help but wonder: the devs are creating tools for people who know better than them what the tools need to do---how does that work??
Scoox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 07:30 PM   #74
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoox View Post
I'm reading through this thread and I'm out of my depth. I can't help but wonder: the devs are creating tools for people who know better than them what the tools need to do---how does that work??
The devs are not doing anything yet related to this thread. It's just a bunch of suggestions from people in the mastering, broadcast, gaming, video, realm which has some different needs than those doing recording, mixing, and production.

They can take it or leave it but the thread seems to show some reasonable interest for development in this area.

I don't think any of it is above their skill set, they just have to decide if they want to create a new branch of REAPER that focuses on these things or just keep it more or less as it is and keep improving MIDI and automation
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/

Last edited by MRMJP; 08-11-2018 at 07:37 PM.
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 07:33 PM   #75
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr3 View Post
Yep, I love Hofa as well. And I rarely get anyone who needs help getting it working which is amazing.

Even without mentioning it, most people end up click on the 'disc' icons next to each song, which of course gets them the individual files with ISRCs embedded.

On a side note, wasn't there a rumor about Izotope developing a stand alone mastering DAW based on Ozone and RX?

I could see that having the potential to be special, but I doubt anyone is going to top Reaper's CPU efficiency and general workflow customizations.

I still cant believe how many 96khz Aqua instances can be run in Reaper compared to PT. Reaper makes PT seem broken.
Yeah, the HOFA stuff is really intuitive. Every few months I get a client that gets stuck but it's normally because they didn't read the instructions I provide

I wouldn't be too surprised if iZotope develops a mastering DAW since Ozone has a standalone app mode but it doesn't do anything in the realm of track ID and all the stuff we are discussing here.

REAPER is ridiculously efficient. Especially since you can use item FX instead of track FX, I can keep a clean session with just one source track containing all the unmastered songs, and one capture track and all the FX run on the items and only tax the CPU when that item is either playing or being rendered which in mastering is typically just one item at a time.
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 09:11 PM   #76
JSMastering
Human being with feelings
 
JSMastering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpr3 View Post
On a side note, wasn't there a rumor about Izotope developing a stand alone mastering DAW based on Ozone and RX?

I could see that having the potential to be special
Yeah. Ozone's standalone mode might be what they were talking about. It's very limited. But, as a beginner thing for people just doing singles, I actually think it's amazing. Everything is easily level matched. It does all of the really important sonic things. It limits you to a reasonable number of processors. It lets you try out a handful of different flavors of processing. And, it hosts plugins as you get more advanced.

I could see it expanding into something really cool as well. Hopefully, Reaper will get there first. Just because I like it better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoox View Post
the devs are creating tools for people who know better than them what the tools need to do---how does that work??
That's how software development usually works, especially in the business world. Project managers and business people figure out what a piece of software needs to do. They give the requirements to a team of coders. The coders do their best and then refine it as they get feedback from the people using it.

There aren't nearly enough details in this thread for them to implement all the features we want (or are spitballing). But, there's enough for them to do research to figure out those details and implement them if they choose.
JSMastering is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 10:04 PM   #77
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 5,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRMJP View Post
people in the mastering, broadcast, gaming, video, realm which has some different needs than those doing recording, mixing, and production.
Add Live Music playing on stage, DJ-ing, doing technical / automating stuff with an embedded audio engine, scientific research, ...

The rage of applications Reaper can be used for is perfectly amazing !

GREAT THANKS TO THE DEVS !!!!

-Michael
__________________
www.boa-sorte.de
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 10:09 PM   #78
drichard
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 385
Default

As I said above, many of these things are useful to everyone. A simple way to enter CD Text and metadata, as well as MP3 tag info would appeal to most Reaper users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoox View Post
I'm reading through this thread and I'm out of my depth. I can't help but wonder: the devs are creating tools for people who know better than them what the tools need to do---how does that work??
drichard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2018, 10:14 PM   #79
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 5,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoox View Post
the devs are creating tools for people who know better than them what the tools need to do---how does that work??
Being a software engineer myself, I know that ti's very important and really hard to listen to you r users. In many cases you need to translate and extend the very limited information they provide (as to them their requirements / workflow seems obvious, ubiquitous and "simple") into usable parameters of an algorithm.

-Michael
__________________
www.boa-sorte.de
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2018, 01:24 PM   #80
MRMJP
Human being with feelings
 
MRMJP's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Milwaukee, WI USA
Posts: 1,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Being a software engineer myself, I know that ti's very important and really hard to listen to you r users. In many cases you need to translate and extend the very limited information they provide (as to them their requirements / workflow seems obvious, ubiquitous and "simple") into usable parameters of an algorithm.

-Michael
I agree that a lot of the stuff in this thread would not be easy to translate properly 100% from forum posts. This is why I mentioned that I'm normally a digital communications person but due to the nature, some human interaction might be required.

I know nothing about software development but I have offered to do some verbal and/or screen shares with the developers to help clear up any points of confusion.

I'll be curious to see if they take on any of this but in reality, it has to be an all or nothing approach for it to really be considered a serious mastering DAW for dedicated mastering engineers other than the ones that are currently getting by with it with scripts, workarounds, compromises, and other apps to finish the job.

It sounds like ability to tag WAV and mp3 files with metadata is pretty universally welcomed/requested but that is just one of the many little things needed to do what I just described above.
__________________
MacOS 10.13.6 - iMac Pro 3.0 GHz 10-Core - 64GB RAM - SSD for OS and audio
http://www.mysteryroommastering.com/ - http://www.justincarlperkins.com/
MRMJP is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.