Old 07-15-2019, 10:20 AM   #1
zookthespook
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Default Vst 2.4 plugins replaced by vst3.

Hi
As there were double copies of some of my vst2.4 plugins in the vst3 folder, I decided to delete the 2.4 versions, assuming reaper will latch on to the vst3 versions of the plugin , but seems like projects which had vst 2.4 versions could not locate the plugins to load up ,though in the FX browser, the vst3 version of the same plugin is available.

So if i had deleted the Fab PRo q3 from the 2.4 folder , the project said the plugin was missing ,while the vst3 version of pro q3 shows in the fx browser.

any insight would be appreciated.

regards
zook
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:10 AM   #2
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There's no such feature in Reaper at all.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:13 AM   #3
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VST3 has a different install location and it is a different file.
It would have been nice Reaper to be able to replace old versions of plugins with new versions of "the same", but then something or someone has to specify which plugins are "the same".
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:15 AM   #4
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Also I wonder if all VST3 plugins share the same plugin state chunk as their VST2 counterparts...
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adXok View Post
VST3 has a different install location and it is a different file.
It would have been nice Reaper to be able to replace old versions of plugins with new versions of "the same", but then something or someone has to specify which plugins are "the same".
Different location does not matter. If Reaper does see requested plugin in other location it does use it.
What does matter is identifier of a plugin. It has to be the same as one stored in project. Plugins are recognized by their IDs.
Sometimes developers uses the same id across all plugin versions. other time they generate different ids making possible to use different versions of the same plugin in single project.
Both approaches have pros and cons obviously.

At the end, as ED said, there might be architectural differences between vst2 and 3 impacting pluging data stored in project
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:58 AM   #6
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In that case maybe it is better to put the 2.4 DLL back and delete the vst3 instance of the same plug .AFAIK if a 32 bit instance was missing reaper used to automatically load the 64bit instance of the vst2 DLL...thats why I presumed.. but then it's better to stick to the 2.4 version regardless
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zookthespook View Post
In that case maybe it is better to put the 2.4 DLL back and delete the vst3 instance of the same plug .AFAIK if a 32 bit instance was missing reaper used to automatically load the 64bit instance of the vst2 DLL...thats why I presumed.. but then it's better to stick to the 2.4 version regardless
only if both plugins: 32 and 64 bit have the same id.
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXyM View Post
only if both plugins: 32 and 64 bit have the same id.
Ah ! Thank you for helping good people
Cheers
Zook
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Also I wonder if all VST3 plugins share the same plugin state chunk as their VST2 counterparts...
Yeah ... I was wondering that too.

I've had great luck upgrading projects to use a newer version of a VST2 plugin (Addictive Drums to Addictive Drums 2, Jamstix3 to Jamstix4, Kontakt5 to Kontakt6), by simply changing the plugin name in the RPP file. But I haven't tried migrating from VTS2 to VST3 yet.

I foresee some experimentation tonight.
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Old 07-15-2019, 03:59 PM   #10
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The reason the project can't find the VST2.4 or replace it automatically with a VST3 is because they have different file extensions...VST2.4 are .dll files and VST3 are .vst3 files...when REAPER loads in a project it's looking for the .dll files which are now gone, and it doesn't know what to do...

As far as 32 and 64 bit VST2.4 files, you can't have both saved to the same location...windows will overwrite one with the other...if you want to have both installed they need to be in separate folders...
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:34 PM   #11
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@jellowman, it's completely not true.
DLL's file name is not what is used to identify vst/vsti plugins.
In fact plugins's .dll files can be renamed to whatever you want. And thanks to this you can have both versions (32 and 64bit) located in the same directory.

Of course after changing filename of a plugin, you have to ensure a DAW knows about this change (ie refresh plugin cache).
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Old 07-15-2019, 10:07 PM   #12
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Actually yes it is used in .RPP file. Whenever you load a VST2 plugin, it's filename is referenced in .RPP, along with extension. Ditto for VST3.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Actually yes it is used in .RPP file. Whenever you load a VST2 plugin, it's filename is referenced in .RPP, along with extension. Ditto for VST3.
Thanks ed, for clearing that up !

Cheers
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Actually yes it is used in .RPP file. Whenever you load a VST2 plugin, it's filename is referenced in .RPP, along with extension. Ditto for VST3.

File name really does not matter (in OPs case). It's stored in a project, it's true, but For sure it's not the main identifier of a plugin. maybe it's used when no VST ID is set, or you have two versions of the same plugin (same IDs). Maybe.
Anyway VST ID is a main identifier suggested by Stainberg.

Do the experiment.
  1. Create new project
  2. Add one track with some VSTi (I added Surge, represented by surge.dll).
  3. Store the project. The project contain a line:
    Code:
    <VST "VSTi: Surge (Vember Audio)" Surge.dll 0 "" 1667920691 ""
  4. Close Reaper.
  5. Rename the plugin file. I renamed to Surge_blabla.dll
  6. Reopen Reaper loading the project. In my case Reaper didn't even asked for missing Surge. It found it silently.
  7. Store the project. Look inside. New project contain line
    Code:
    <VST "VSTi: Surge (Vember Audio)" Surge_blabla.dll 0 "" 1667920691 ""

Also check out Stainberg reference for confirmation.

Last edited by MaXyM; 07-16-2019 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:02 AM   #15
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I performed another experiment which partially contradicts what I wrote. But it's the consequence of logic applied to corner conditions by Reaper.

In short, I created test project with surge and synth1. Then I swapped filenames of those plugins.
In this situation Reaper loaded synth1 in place of surge and vice-versa. Then replaced their VST ID in saved project file.

So it seems the Repear's logic is following:
1. try to find plugin by file name at first
2. if not found look for files which has VST ID referenced in the project

At this point I'm not sure I would program it this way. But at least we know how Reaper behaves in such extreme situations.

Last edited by MaXyM; 07-16-2019 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:48 AM   #16
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It's good that it finds things by filename first. This is what makes Reaper projects extremely easy to convert from using Kontakt 5 instances to using Kontakt 6 instances, for example.
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Old 07-16-2019, 05:25 AM   #17
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Hi maxym ,
Your curiosity really took us all to the vst rabbit hole...but amazing finds .
Cheers
Zook
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:10 PM   #18
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Finally got around to testing whether you can "hot swap" VST2/VST3 plugins by editing the RPP file, and it did not go well. Looks like they do not share the same state chunk.

I replaced a VST3 with a VST2 in the RPP file (just the very first line, where it specifies the plugin to use), and after opening the project, the settings on the VST2 were not the same as they had been on VST3. And worse, the parameters being automated had changed to different parameters. And after saving the project, the state chuck had changed so that it did not match the original project. Multiple attempts at trying to "fool" the plugin to load the original settings failed miserably.

Too bad, as I am actually in the need for doing this. I am revisiting some old projects started on my previous PC. They have a few VST3 in them because they were started before I decided to use VST2 exclusively (too many issues with VST3 not being fully functional). Unfortunately, I also carried that philosophy over to me new PC, and did not install many VST3 (unless the installer didn't give me an option for what to install).

Grr ... looks like I have to install VST3 I don't want on the new PC just to get those old projects working again.

EDIT: 10 minutes later -- well that was easier than I thought it would be. Used "Everything" to search all RPP files for VST3, and there were only a few that needed to be installed. Now to hide VST3 in the FX browser so I can stick to VST2 for a while.
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Last edited by lunker; 07-16-2019 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:09 AM   #19
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VST3 plugins do not 'swap out' their 2.4 versions.

They are effectively a separate plugin that does not cross-share any project data or saved presets.
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunker View Post
Finally got around to testing whether you can "hot swap" VST2/VST3 plugins by editing the RPP file, and it did not go well. Looks like they do not share the same state chunk.

I replaced a VST3 with a VST2 in the RPP file (just the very first line, where it specifies the plugin to use), and after opening the project, the settings on the VST2 were not the same as they had been on VST3. And worse, the parameters being automated had changed to different parameters. And after saving the project, the state chuck had changed so that it did not match the original project. Multiple attempts at trying to "fool" the plugin to load the original settings failed miserably.

Too bad, as I am actually in the need for doing this. I am revisiting some old projects started on my previous PC. They have a few VST3 in them because they were started before I decided to use VST2 exclusively (too many issues with VST3 not being fully functional). Unfortunately, I also carried that philosophy over to me new PC, and did not install many VST3 (unless the installer didn't give me an option for what to install).

Grr ... looks like I have to install VST3 I don't want on the new PC just to get those old projects working again.

EDIT: 10 minutes later -- well that was easier than I thought it would be. Used "Everything" to search all RPP files for VST3, and there were only a few that needed to be installed. Now to hide VST3 in the FX browser so I can stick to VST2 for a while.
If your VST3 plugin has its own internal preset saving/loading, those presets will probably 'hot swap' back to your VST2. Well, this works with MeldaProduction plugins...not sure whether this scoops up every little thing but worth trying, might help.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:39 PM   #21
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A bit technical explanation how that can be organized:
http://www.noelborthwick.com/2014/01...st3-internals/
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