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Old 06-25-2018, 02:47 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
ReacontrolMIDI is how I read the cc4 values from the td-11. The values are fixed to a range of 0-90 (for no apparent reason). So if a drum sampler is expecting that range of missing values and doesn't provide some sort of compensation for it, then you just don't get the samples that are mapped to those cc4 values (such as tightly closed hi-hats). And even if the sampler can compensate for it, a large chunk of the controller resolution is being tossed out.
Actually your closed hat should not suffer, it would be the upper positions of your pedal that should be the ones that get missed.

However, all the CC4 values used to select articulations are from one CC4 value to another CC4 value. So with 6 main articulations, consider that 128 values have 21 values per articulation, while 91 (0 to 90), will have 15+ values. With a script, I would think this could easily be compensated for.
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Old 06-25-2018, 03:55 PM   #122
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Sorry..minerman,
I forgot to say what an awesome setup u have. Have heard many goodthings about those modules and a buddy of mine ggot rid of his vdrum kit and got all cellular pads like your snare. He loves it.
What hihat controller is that? Also awesome.
I now remember that js you show..the author included some of your suggestions I recall and I made a mental note to check it out..and quickly forgot:-)
And the location of your monitor..brilliant.

Guido
Thanks, the hh controller I have is just the stock/standard controller & a real hh stand that both come with the DTX532K...

Tod: Sorry I didn't reply on the cc thing, my module goes from o to 127...The reason I know this I have it set up where if I do use anything different than what I mentioned earlier (2 closed, 2 open, then edit), I have to keep constant pressure on the hh foot pedal so it will trigger the "tight" closed articulation...


All this talk of hh controllers made me remember a little mod I did to my DTX400's controller...The controller is just a foot pedal that triggers either open or closed, nothing in between (it's actually 4 including the pedal chick & splash)...

I actually bought an older DTXtreme module because I thought the DTX400 module didn't put out the 0 - 127 cc data, but it does...The problem was my hh controller...


The DTX400 hi-hat controller (foot pedal) only allows either open or closed articulations...I modded the hh controller so it will have the "in-between" articulations as well...

Here's a couple pics of the inside of my hi-hat controller (this is the bottom of the pedal...the on/off switch is on the left, & the 1/4" jack is on the right):



This is the top of the on/off switch...when I push the pedal down with my foot, the pedal pushes the rubber boot closed, sending the midi cc value to the daw/drum vst:


As you can see, it's basically an on/off switch that determines which note the module sends to my drum vst's in the daw...I replaced the on/off switch with a force sensitive resistor, which fixed the problem...

The stock DTX400 controller sends either "0" or "127" cc values (control change) via midi, nothing in between...The FSR will send varying values, depending on how much pressure I'm putting on the foot pedal...(IE: pressing the pedal about halfway down will send a value of "50", which would trigger one of the in-between articulations in the drum vst's)...

Here's the resistor (it's pretty small, 1.75" x 1.5"):


Here's a link to the FSR:
https://www.amazon.com/SENSING-RESIS...itive+resistor

And here are some pics (not mine) of the mod using a real hi-hat stand...It's doing basically the same thing, wiring the FSR to the output jack in the foot pedal, & putting some foam on top of it, so it can "sense" how much the pedal is open/closed when I press/release with your foot:






I had forgotten about this until you guys jarred my memory...

Both the modded DTX400 & DTX532 hh controllers put out the cc values from 0 to 127...But they're really, really sensitive, & I'd thought about wiring a couple/few resistors to the FSR in order to make 'em less sensitive, but I'm not sure that would help...Any of you have any ideas about making the hh controllers I have less sensitive??? If I could make 'em do so, it would be a lot easier, & a lot more like using a real hh...

Any help???
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:35 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by minerman View Post
Both the modded DTX400 & DTX532 hh controllers put out the cc values from 0 to 127...But they're really, really sensitive, & I'd thought about wiring a couple/few resistors to the FSR in order to make 'em less sensitive, but I'm not sure that would help...Any of you have any ideas about making the hh controllers I have less sensitive??? If I could make 'em do so, it would be a lot easier, & a lot more like using a real hh...

Any help???
Ha ha, got love this diy thing minerman.

Can you explain exactly what you mean by sensitive. I can imagine something like this, using physical
pressure, could be a little erratic, even if it does put out 0 to 127.

I would think if you measured the CC4 values that are sent based on the position of the pedal, that would
give you the basis of what can be done to proceed.

I know it's probably hard to position the pedal. Maybe get a few small blocks of wood, each a little smaller.
Then put the bock under the pedal from 3/4 to 1/2 way from the top. Then just slide the block forward slightly
for each measurement. When the first one gets to the top and runs out of space, put in the next one so that it
is tight to the pedal. Heh heh, just thinkin'.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:22 PM   #124
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Actually your closed hat should not suffer, it would be the upper positions of your pedal that should be the ones that get missed.

However, all the CC4 values used to select articulations are from one CC4 value to another CC4 value. So with 6 main articulations, consider that 128 values have 21 values per articulation, while 91 (0 to 90), will have 15+ values. With a script, I would think this could easily be compensated for.
Maybe it varies from module to module, but on mine CC4 value of 0 = fully open. And using the Roland e-drum presets in Addictive and Ezdrummer, it behaves as it should. This stuff can't be easy, though. Right? I mean, it could all be as bog standard as the MIDI protocol itself. I forget if it is reversed for a standard MIDI expression pedal input.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:32 PM   #125
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Any of you have any ideas about making the hh controllers I have less sensitive??? If I could make 'em do so, it would be a lot easier, & a lot more like using a real hh...

Any help???
Adding a resistor is only going to drop some of the voltage over the entire range, so I think that isn't going to do it. I think maybe some softer foam would help, but you would need to adjust the gap to be tighter so that the foam can become fully compressed.

What roland does in the FD-8 and other fsr based pedals is to use a piece of rubber that gradually lays across the fsr, effectively applying more and more pressure over the length of the fsr, rather than applying all of the pressure at a single horizontal point.

What you need to know is the max resistance requirement for the module's pedal input so that you can meet that requirement. Then you could try different schemes of foam density and shape (or something else entirely) to get a resistance curve that translates well to hi-hat pedal movement.

Sadly, a diy pedal wouldn't make a bit of different for my module, since it throws out nearly a third of the CC4 values on the MIDI output side of things.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:45 PM   #126
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Maybe it varies from module to module, but on mine CC4 value of 0 = fully open.
Oh yah, "0 = fully open" is reversed from the way it's been explained to me, as well as for the Kontakt
scripts I've been asked to write for this.

Quote:
And using the Roland e-drum presets in Addictive and Ezdrummer, it behaves as it should.
By this do you mean "0 = Closed"?

Quote:
This stuff can't be easy, though. Right? I mean, it could all be as bog standard as the MIDI protocol itself. I forget if it is reversed for a standard MIDI expression pedal input.
I don't think there's any standard or protocol for this, because this came along long after any midi
standards. However, I don't know that for sure, there might be something out there.

Regarding how the CC4s should be, if you look at a CC4 event, 0 is at the bottom and 127 is at the top.
In my mind 0 would = pedal down and 127 = pedal up. Ha ha, but who knows.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:45 PM   #127
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I'd thought about wiring a couple/few resistors to the FSR in order to make 'em less sensitive
The FSR is likely one 'leg' of a voltage divider where the FSR will sit at some very high resistance when at rest then reduce as pressure etc. is increased causing the output voltage of the divider to rise which becomes your trigger signal (not withstanding this actually being part of a small opamp gain circuit). That means you may need less resistance (parallel) to reduce sensitivity or more (series). Or it may work entirely differently, the best place to start is seeing if you can measure the resistance range it has or find a data sheet for it which will have it listed, which may also have an example circuit which itself might help answer the question.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:51 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I would think if you measured the CC4 values that are sent based on the position of the pedal, that would
give you the basis of what can be done to proceed.
That should be a good way for finding out the required resistance value of a module's input. Assuming that some maximum amount of applied pressure on an fsr gives the highest CC4 value of 127 (it could in fact be reversed), the resistance value of the fsr at that given applied pressure will be roughly the required value for the module's hi-hat pedal input. Then rounding to the nearest standard resistance value should work.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:56 PM   #129
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Oh yah, "0 = fully open" is reversed from the way it's been explained to me, as well as for the Kontakt
scripts I've been asked to write for this.



By this do you mean "0 = Closed"?
Taking a closer look, in Ezdrummer when using the Roland e-drum preset, the pedal just works as intended. That is with 0 = fully open. In addictive there is a checkbox for reversed hi-hat pedal that is automatically checked when selecting the Roland e-drum preset. Hope that helps.

To play it safe, I would include a toggle for reversing the values. Also, after finding out that my Roland module only outputs CC4 values 0-90, I see that it is not an uncommon thing from Roland. So another safe bet would be to provide an option for CC4 range of 0-90 and 0-127. I think that would cover your bases for scripting. But there may be other gotchas out there on other modules.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:04 PM   #130
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GotMetalboy, I have been reading about the issues with the FD-8 pedal. What I am reading is that the rubber actuator stiffens over time causing a problem between open and closed hi-hat, and the same actuator is used on the FD-6, FD-7, FD-8, HD-1, and TD-1. The popular workaround seems to be cutting some shallow slits in the actuator to loosen it up. It's a shame that manufacturers continue year after year to sell junk at high prices. Roland does sell a replacement actuator, but who knows if it will have the same problem over time. Doing some reading around on hi-hat controllers, many roland e-drum players have moved to diy hi-hat controller designs, often reporting much better performance than what comes with their roland kits.

Are there any other problems with the FD-8 that you know of? When you say 'break', do you mean that some part of the housing breaks?


I have barely done any recording of an acoustic kit. And I don't have an acoustic kit at home anymore. But I have been used keys/pads off and on for a long time, and I have experimented here and there with various triggering schemes using piezos and microphones. And typically for playing, I turn off all effects in drum samplers, usually cutting things down to direct mic and overhead channels.

What hi-hat controller are you using with the TD-20?
Brainwreck,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I just saw your questions. The only issues I've had with the FD-8 are the ones you found. I still have my FD-7 from over 20 years ago and it's never had any issue but when I had a FD-8, it had issues within a couple months and I know other people that have had the same issue.

I currently use the Roland VH-12 HH that came with my TD-20 V-Drums kit.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:18 PM   #131
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To play it safe, I would include a toggle for reversing the values.
Oops, ha ha, to late now for the scripts I've already put out but I'll definitely remember for the future.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:26 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Ha ha, got love this diy thing minerman.

Can you explain exactly what you mean by sensitive. I can imagine something like this, using physical
pressure, could be a little erratic, even if it does put out 0 to 127.

I would think if you measured the CC4 values that are sent based on the position of the pedal, that would
give you the basis of what can be done to proceed.

I know it's probably hard to position the pedal. Maybe get a few small blocks of wood, each a little smaller.
Then put the bock under the pedal from 3/4 to 1/2 way from the top. Then just slide the block forward slightly
for each measurement. When the first one gets to the top and runs out of space, put in the next one so that it
is tight to the pedal. Heh heh, just thinkin'.
Thanks guys, the FSR is really, really sensitive to physical pressure & it is hard to position the pedal...

I tried to figure out how to make less sensitive, but that was a while back, & I lost interest...It wasn't long after trying this I started using the method I mentioned earlier, just use 1 open & 1 closed note while recording, then edit the midi afterward...It would be cool to not have to edit, but again, I lost interest...

The least bit of pressure & it is a little erratic, but that's understandable, I'm using the FSR for something it probably wasn't intended to do...

Regarding the foam, I have tried that, but the value the FSR sends still fluctuates a bit until the foam stops moving (IE: put the foam on the FSR, then apply pressure, it will eventually stop when the foam "settles")...

So, even the slightest movement of my foot raises/lowers the value the controller sends...It's so sensitive I don't even realize my foot is moving, but if I could add resistors either series/parallel/whatever (thanks Karbo), or do whatever to make it way less sensitive, it would work a lot better...Using 5 different levels of openness, from 0 to 127 puts each level around "25" or so (IE:closed = 0 - 25, open 1 = 26 - 50, open 2 = 51 - 75 & so on), but it's really hard to stay in one position because the travel of the pedal itself is small to begin with & then when you try to get 5 different independent levels it gets even smaller...

If you guys are having a hard time wrapping your head around the sensitivity of the FSR, I'll try to make a short little video to actually show you what I'm talking about...

BTW, Superior 3's (& all Toontrack stuff I imagine) cc value for the hh is "127" closed, & "0" is fully open...I thought it'd be the exact opposite, but it's not...
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:44 PM   #133
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Quote:
It's so sensitive I don't even realize my foot is moving
Ahh.... Pardon my ignorance but do the inputs for the trigger allow or prefer a resistive trigger vs piezo? Never mind, looks like for hats, yes and it's what is used for the reason you guys are discussing:

Quote:
Electronic hi-hats are always made up of two components: a trigger pad to detect hits, and a variable resistor-based hi-hat controller to detect the foot position, so the drum module can determine whether the hi-hat is supposed to be open or closed (or somewhere in between).
That makes me think you can make it work better, you could put an ohmmeter on it and measure the resistance with full and zero pressure, that may give you the info to select the right resistors to tame it some. If you figure that out, then make it a potentiometer you can adjust and see if you can find a reasonable setting.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:31 PM   #134
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It would help to know something about how an expression pedal input circuit works. Obviously there is an A/D converter and some scanning going on looking for changes in signal according to the position of the pedal. I'm guessing that the signal being affected by the pedal is DC. If it were some sort of oscillator, an rc lowpass filter might be used to slow things down. But if it is DC, I don't know what could be done other than something on the mechanical side to make the pedal stiffer in both directions.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:38 PM   #135
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If you figure that out, then make it a potentiometer you can adjust and see if you can find a reasonable setting.
I was thinking the same thing.

Also, I think that replacing the fsr with a pot would likely make the changes in resistance smoother for end use. But a pot would probably wear out pretty fast given how much movement a hi-hat pedal sees. I have seen some diy designs around the net that use either a pot or slider. I wonder how often the pot/slider needs to be replaced in those designs.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:48 PM   #136
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Here is one slider design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAqjIdoXfBQ

Here is another, which looks like it was done on the ultra cheap: http://edrums.gl.tter.org/

The aspects that would need to be done right here are, the correct resistance of course, maybe using a taper other than linear, getting a good feeling spring tension, and matching the amount of travel between the pedal and slider.

minerman, have you ran across any interesting looking diy hi-hat pedal controller designs?
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:03 PM   #137
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In don't know about a drum brain resistive input but the same concept everywhere else is a voltage divider into an ADC...

Some voltage --- resistor --- | --- resistor --- ground

Where tapping in at the "|" is an output voltage that is the result of those two resistors - in our case one of them is variable and causes the resulting output to vary up and down. That output goes into an ADC which if say 8 bit (1 status 7 data like MIDI IIRC?), you get a resulting range of 0-127. If there is a sensitivity setting on the drum brain it's what makes up for the difference if needed (likely just a preamp with gain).

One can test this functionality as POC using a potentiometer and an Arduino - actually one could make their own drum brain to an extent. I've toyed with it once or twice but didn't really need it and a production brain is going to be mostly superior though it's good learning to see how one works.
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:26 PM   #138
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Getting into arduino looks very enticing, but it also looks like a huge time sink. I seem to have too little time to even play instruments these days.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:10 PM   #139
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Getting into arduino looks very enticing, but it also looks like a huge time sink. I seem to have too little time to even play instruments these days.
It is and I agree.
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:22 AM   #140
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I can't say anything about what is going on with other drum modules (minerman's module, for example), but on the TD-11, measuring across tip and sleeve of the hi-hat pedal input shows 3 volts DC with the pedal disconnected. My meter is flaking out (maybe dying battery), so I can't measure resistance of the pedal at the moment.

On the analog side of things, it seems to me that what would be needed to make the pedal output less sensitive to movement would be something more like a square root impedance curve rather than a linear impedance curve. It seems that could be done with some type of filter.

Or on the software side (assuming that the module is being used to trigger a vst sampler), the CC4 values could be transformed to something like a square root curve. This would probably be really easy for someone who is versed in jesusonic. I am not.
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:49 AM   #141
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Uh huh..now u guys be going deep! Dam...
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:06 AM   #142
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I can't say anything about what is going on with other drum modules (minerman's module, for example), but on the TD-11, measuring across tip and sleeve of the hi-hat pedal input shows 3 volts DC with the pedal disconnected.
Probably just one leg of that divider I was explaining (the other leg is inside the brain) so put a volume pot from there to ground and that 3V will vary with the pot and voila hihat pressure (as a test). You don't need all that extra scale math most likely, just measure the variable resistor's range and the rest can be figured out because you just need a voltage that varies enough to convert to 128 values and the rest can usually be compensated for (or rather nothing really matters until someone actually does the first step to see where they are).

That's why I mentioned the Arduino thing, though a rabbit hole as a hobby in general - and I don't expect anyone in this thread to go down it, it's the fastest way to understand how it works minus all the guessing - I have piezos and flex sensors (I designed and built a beat bug last year here and here) but I don't have the sensor minerman posted or I'd just test this for you guys. The tempometer didn't need velocity (but did need hysteresis and sensitivity) so I got away with just building a comparator circuit but between sensor testing and various IoT stuff I've built (since they all use the exact same principles), I was able to understand how much of it works.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:16 AM   #143
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I am assuming that the voltage through minerman's diy fsr pedal already provides the range needed for CC4 values 0-127 or 0-90, whatever it may be. Confirmation from minerman would be needed. If that is the case, then either the resistance curve needs to be altered or the curve of CC4 output values needs to be altered in order to achieve a more gradual change within a given time window. Unless I'm missing something here.

Altering the resistance curve I think is going to require an active filter, which is probably getting too complicated for this. Altering the curve of CC4 values would likely be straightforward after getting over the jesusonic coding hump, and it would be free. Again, assuming that minerman's diy pedal is providing for a full range from 0v-3v, or whatever voltage his module is using.

minerman, if you are reading this can you provide DC voltage measurements across the fsr with the pedal fully open and fully closed? can you tell us if your pedal is putting out a full range of CC4 values using ReacontrolMIDI with logging turned on?
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:23 AM   #144
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Unless I'm missing something here.
There are two halves, analog and digital, often either can be involved in scaling et al but most often anything that can be handled/mapped in code (digital) will be because that's far easier than the fact one has to remove/add physical parts on the analog side. Digital is a defacto 3.3 or 5V but you can't draw too many conclusions the way you are measuring IMHO other than the divider needs to be able to put out close to the max so the ADC can come in default at 127. It's entirely possible he could have a range issue but he has to start somewhere.

For what MM is doing, the quickest result is just measuring the sensor resistance range taking a pot with a similar range and experimenting and leaving out all the engineering details of which most of we don't have access to anyway. He could end up in a tight spot but ideally he just needs the range to occupy the full range needed then see how the brain and it's settings can adjust for any differences. My hunch is he wasn't using large enough valued resistors because such sensors tend to have very high resistances at max.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:33 AM   #145
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This looks like a good place to start for a js fx: https://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.p...MIDI_Transpose

I don't know anything about MIDI messages and related lingo though. Karbo, do you know of a good tutorial and/or reference?

I should mention that I am personally interested in altering the pedal response (CC4 output curve) for my pedal, as well as expanding the CC4 output values of the current 0-90 from my module to 0-127. The resolution will still be the same, but I question how much resolution is needed any way, given that samplers only have a handful of openness ranges.

Anyhow, I will need to look at all of this some other time. I have to leave out for the day within a couple of hours.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:37 AM   #146
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There are two halves, analog and digital, often either can be involved in scaling et al but most often anything that can be handled/mapped in code (digital) will be because that's far easier than the fact one has to remove/add physical parts on the analog side. Digital is a defacto 3.3 or 5V but you can't draw too many conclusions the way you are measuring IMHO other than the divider needs to be able to put out close to the max so the ADC can come in default at 127. It's entirely possible he could have a range issue but he has to start somewhere.

For what MM is doing, the quickest result is just measuring the sensor resistance range taking a pot with a similar range and experimenting and leaving out all the engineering details of which most of we don't have access to anyway. He could end up in a tight spot but ideally he just needs the range to occupy the full range needed then see how the brain and it's settings can adjust for any differences. My hunch is he wasn't using large enough valued resistors because such sensors tend to have very high resistances at max.
I think at this point the simplest thing he could do is to tell us if movement of the pedal from fully open to fully closed results in the module putting out the full range of CC4 values. If so, something can be done on the software side. If not, something needs to be done on the mechanical/electrical side.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:48 AM   #147
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This looks like a good place to start for learning about MIDI messages: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~music/cmsip/...ogrammers.html

And here: https://www.midi.org/specifications-...f-midi-message
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:57 AM   #148
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Assuming getting over the js lingo hump, it seems to me that the simplest way to go would be to grab the incoming CC4 values and apply a sqrt(CC4_value) function, with some parameters for fine tuning, such as sqrt(CC4_value / slope_value). But I could very well be missing something critical here.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:57 AM   #149
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minerman, have you ran across any interesting looking diy hi-hat pedal controller designs?
Yes, the FSR wasn't my idea, I'm actually a lot dumber than you guys thought...

There are a few different diy things here in the VDrums forum:
https://www.vdrums.com/forum/advance...hat-controller

It's an old thread, & I don't come into the picture until about page 9...I never sorted the sensitivity thing simply because I lost interest, plus I bought the DTX532K not long afterward...To be honest, I just got tired of fiddling around with it & wanted to play drums, but I think I'm gonna buckle down to try to make this work for me...

You guys are way more educated on the electronic thing than I am, the last few posts (starting with Karbo's post, #133) are just way over my head...I'm pretty comfortable doing little soldering projects, but I'm more of a "paint by numbers" guy who doesn't really know shit from shinola...

I think all of my modules put out the cc thing from 0 to 127...I'd have to dig the DTXtreme & DTX400 modules out to see (I've simplified my kit since I took the pic I posted), but I do know for sure my DTX502 does...

I'm gonna try attaching the FSR to my hh stand, & try the foam thing to see if I can get it to work better...That would be the simplest thing to start with anyhow...
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:14 AM   #150
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I think at this point the simplest thing he could do is to tell us if movement of the pedal from fully open to fully closed results in the module putting out the full range of CC4 values. If so, something can be done on the software side. If not, something needs to be done on the mechanical/electrical side.
He mentioned it was extremely and utterly too sensitive which makes me think it's going from 0 to 127 with a very tiny resistance change and how we got here, I'm sure you guys can sort it out though.

@minerman: I agree on the just make music part - I've programmed and done other DIY stuff for decades and there is a reason I do zero scripting for reaper and rely on others when I could invest additional time to do it myself for example. Occassionally, I'll design and build a complete project but just a couple times a year so that I don't lose creative/playing time, the last was a 3 knob midi controller mostly due to my own needs.
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:19 AM   #151
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On a possible js fx, I'm probably overthinking this. Taking a clue from Ezdrummer and Addictive, there are only a handful of openness ranges. So providing something like 10 sliders, each of which sets the top value of a range, should be more than enough for any module/sampler. The transition between openness ranges in samplers seems to be hard-switched any way, not a gradual transition, so a mathy curve would be a waste.

Something like:

Code:
rangeA_value = 25;   //CC4 range values set by sliders
rangeB_value = 40;
...

rangeA_altered_value = 1;   //altered CC4 values set by sliders
rangeB_altered_value = 50;

if (cc4_value < rangeA_value){
    cc4_value = rangeA_altered_value;
}
if (cc4_value > rangeA_value && cc4_value < rangeB_value){
    cc4_value = rangeB_altered_value;
}
...
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:34 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
He mentioned it was extremely and utterly too sensitive which makes me think it's going from 0 to 127 with a very tiny resistance change and how we got here, I'm sure you guys can sort it out though.

@minerman: I agree on the just make music part - I've programmed and done other DIY stuff for decades and there is a reason I do zero scripting for reaper and rely on others when I could invest additional time to do it myself for example. Occassionally, I'll design and build a complete project but just a couple times a year so that I don't lose creative/playing time, the last was a 3 knob midi controller mostly due to my own needs.
Thing is, where in the pedal range is it really sensitive? On mine it feels most sensitive near the fully closed position. Opening just a tiny bit has a big effect. But the other thing is that (at least in samplers), what seems to matter to the sampler is what range the CC4 value is in, not the discrete value. So for example, if a pedal is very sensitive to movement from CC4 values 0-10, what needs to happen is upping the top value, because it seems that these samplers are only responding to a handful of ranges at most, not discrete values. And if that is the case, then grabbing the CC4 value for a given pedal position and setting it to a fixed value within a desired sampler response range should be fine. I'll have to test the response ranges tomorrow. I'm out of time for now.
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Old 06-26-2018, 12:51 PM   #153
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Hi,
Supposedly superior uses a range of values per articulation and uses the in between values to shorten the decay...
Not all libraries in superior 2 have identicle amount of articulations. I'm using music city hats...14" I was wrong previously...and has many artics including bell tip. Now that would be a kickass mod to a cy 5 or cy8. Hint?:-)
Also, my td20 puts out 127 full closed.

As far as that fsr mod, all I can contribute is all the drumkats use fsr and it is easily controllable full range by pressing with your hand. Their newer fsr triggers require a box to plug into before your module. Its some sort of power reducer/increaser or something...shows you my electrical knowledge....maybe minermans needs something like that?
I mean as a diy.

And BTW thanks a lot BW.....because of this thread I've spent way too much time redoing my hats to try and get another 5%:-)

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Old 06-26-2018, 01:06 PM   #154
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Their newer fsr triggers require a box to plug into before your module. Its some sort of power reducer/increaser or something...
Depends on what the input on the brain is expecting.

I know me, I'm sure I'll end up POCing a simple FSR that converts to an incoming 0-127 and demo it for you guys (might be a few days) simply because I don't like talking without following up with a demonstrable action. I won't do the additional piece of sending that as MIDI, as that part isn't needed in order to understand this piece of the puzzle - well that could happen since I've already written some of that code but it isn't really required.
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:17 PM   #155
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@minerman: I agree on the just make music part - I've programmed and done other DIY stuff for decades and there is a reason I do zero scripting for reaper and rely on others when I could invest additional time to do it myself for example.

Occassionally, I'll design and build a complete project but just a couple times a year so that I don't lose creative/playing time, the last was a 3 knob midi controller mostly due to my own needs.
+1, I'm into this recording thing up to my neck & I love it, but it so easy to lose sight of the goal sometimes...I'm a guitar tone-chaser too, & the same thing can happen with any of it...

If you do the build/project, I'd sure like to see what you come up with...It's possible I could take some of your ideas, apply them to my projects/stuff & sort it all out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Thing is, where in the pedal range is it really sensitive?
It's the whole range for me BW, of course I can get it to "sit" at either fully open or fully closed, but it's erratic trying to get it to "sit" at a certain spot...This is probably user-related too, but the FSR is very sensitive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
On mine it feels most sensitive near the fully closed position. Opening just a tiny bit has a big effect. But the other thing is that (at least in samplers), what seems to matter to the sampler is what range the CC4 value is in, not the discrete value. So for example, if a pedal is very sensitive to movement from CC4 values 0-10, what needs to happen is upping the top value, because it seems that these samplers are only responding to a handful of ranges at most, not discrete values. And if that is the case, then grabbing the CC4 value for a given pedal position and setting it to a fixed value within a desired sampler response range should be fine. I'll have to test the response ranges tomorrow. I'm out of time for now.
I'm gonna do a little testing tonight too, & I'll try to have some more info on what's happening on my end...

Thanks guys...
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:32 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
On a possible js fx, I'm probably overthinking this. Taking a clue from Ezdrummer and Addictive, there are only a handful of openness ranges. So providing something like 10 sliders, each of which sets the top value of a range, should be more than enough for any module/sampler.
Can you explain this a little more brainwreck, Like Karbo, I haven't gotten into any of Reaper's scripting, only for different reasons. I'm 75
and based on the computer code languages I have learned over the years, it takes a lot of time to learn each programming code well enough
to be proficient at it. Ha ha, at 75, even if I did attempt one of Reaper's scripting programs, I'm probably not going to be around long enough
to use it.

I basically understand your variables here as well as the "if" statements, but I'm not getting the reasoning of it, which probably isn't important
right now. You say it will have 10 sliders for what I assume are a possible 10 pedal positions, is that correct?

Quote:
The transition between openness ranges in samplers seems to be hard-switched any way, not a gradual transition, so a mathy curve would be a waste.
When you say "hard-switched", are you talking about the way the open hats are muted by other articulations?

I just got started today attempting to script the emulation of the hat going from "sizzle" to "very tight". This would also include the pitch
differences you've been talking about. I also thought I'd provide a switch so that the CC4 controller direction could go either way, it looks like
most, if not all of you, want it to go from 127 to 0. With my preliminary tests, this emulation might be quite doable.

Since I'm mainly working on the pedal going from the Sizzle to the Tight right now, what other articulations would you guys like between the
open hat and the sizzle? I'm assuming the open and sizzle would account for 2 articulations.
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Old 06-26-2018, 05:14 PM   #157
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Todd, I haven't used js for anything. I started to once, but what I wanted to do looked too involved at the time.

The pseudocode above is C syntax. I'll explain later when I'm at a computer.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:49 AM   #158
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Okay, here's a short mp3 of hi-hat playing from sizzle to tight. Listen closely to see if you can hear the pitch
differences as the hat tightens. This is all done with just one sizzle sample, no RRs or other layers. Of course
this can get a lot fancier, it was just a quick test to see if it can be done this way, and I think it can.

It's hard for me to know how high the pitch should go with out a reference. In this case the pitch curve is linear,
but I think maybe a more exponential curve might be better as it tightens. Let me know what you think.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hbJ...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:05 AM   #159
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Got up this morning and started climbing the js and MIDI message humps. I'm making a little headway, but it's going to take some time.

I haven't went back to do any CC4 value testing with Ezdrummer or Addictive yet, which I will need to do before working out any kind of solution. But my attention is on js and MIDI message basics at the moment.

Todd, on that pseudocode that I posted above, it boils down to:

Create some CC4 value ranges.
Test to find what range an incoming CC4 value is in.
Output a modified CC4 value in a desired range.

Also Todd, I had a quick listen on the hi-hat pitch bending thing. I think there is more going on than just a simple pitch bend. There is also a harder attack and less decay when the pedal is pressed harder. Really, the timbre probably changes in multiple ways. Getting a pitch bend is a good start. It would really help to use a real hi-hat for reference to see what you hear and try to translate that into your script.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:49 AM   #160
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Quote:
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Todd, on that pseudocode that I posted above, it boils down to:

Create some CC4 value ranges.
Test to find what range an incoming CC4 value is in.
Output a modified CC4 value in a desired range.
Gotcha, I'm anxious to see what you come up with. I'm also curious what you find with Ezdrummer and Addictive.

Quote:
Also Todd, I had a quick listen on the hi-hat pitch bending thing. I think there is more going on than just a simple pitch bend. There is also a harder attack and less decay when the pedal is pressed harder. Really, the timbre probably changes in multiple ways. Getting a pitch bend is a good start. It would really help to use a real hi-hat for reference to see what you hear and try to translate that into your script.
Okay, did you not hear the hat tighten up to a tic-tic-tic? And yeah, I do need a reference, maybe my friend SMM can help with this,
although he's really busy right now.

What I envision with this is maybe 2, 3, or 4 different articulations. Of course RRs as well. I could add an array for an EQ, but I think
added articulations would probably take care of that. Crossfading samples is the ideal solution, but I doubt crossfading would work
with a hi-hat because of the phasing, unless the samples were phase aligned, which is nearly impossible.
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