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Old 06-27-2018, 11:18 AM   #161
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Todd, I just had a quick listen. Listening again, what I hear is the pitching affecting what sounds like the closed range to the sizzle range. I think it should only be affecting closed tight to very tight. Then it would be easier to make a judgement on how much attack and decay should be changed with the tightening. Without a real hi-hat at hand, I wouldn't want to be making any sort of final judgement calls.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:06 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Todd, I just had a quick listen. Listening again, what I hear is the pitching affecting what sounds like the closed range to the sizzle range. I think it should only be affecting closed tight to very tight. Then it would be easier to make a judgement on how much attack and decay should be changed with the tightening. Without a real hi-hat at hand, I wouldn't want to be making any sort of final judgement calls.
Thanks brainwreck, I totally agree, in fact that's what I'm working on right now. The big problem is that from closed to very tight
doesn't leave a lot of CC4 values. That is, unless the various CC4 position slots can be manipulated. For example, right now I've
got the "sizzle to very tight" set up with 21 values, if I could increase the number of values for that slot, say to 29, it would be
easier to do.
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:51 AM   #163
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Hi all,
Tod, if I understand correctly your working on a kontact script to simulate hh control from a pedal thats sending cc4.
The good sample libraries out there have hat instruments that include
Tight tip..closed tip...open 1-4....pedal closed ....pedal open....then tight edge....closed edge...etc.
Some include hh bell articulations.
On the pedal I use..Roland fd7.... It seems the Cc output gets finer as I get to the bottom physicly. What I mean is it uses less values of the total 128 when approaching open.

All the good drum romplers allow you to set how much of the poss 128 values each articulation gets. Also, they have curves that manipulate the incoming midi data..cc4.

One thing is that on an ac kit one of the first things drummers check when they set up their kit is lowering the top hat so that the angeled bottom hat is almost touching the top part when your foot is at open rest. So physicly there's not a lot of foot movement...tho there are preferences diff between people. But I've never had a guy sit in on my kit and adjust the openness...tho they move everything else..sobs:-)

Which leads me to...

I think 2 or 3 max artics of closed/tight would be plenty. With envelope,pitch, and possibly sample start time reacting in between those artics.

One more thought,
Many libraries (not all)and especially the Roland modules I've used, have a open 4 artic that's the sound of the hats so open it doesn't touch the bottom hat. Most drummers try to avoid that sound! Cept for maybe a bell like hit or maybe a crash.
I hope my verbal diarehha has given you any insight that you can use.

Glennbo has a ac kit waiting to be recorded. I'm shocked he hasn't chimed in. Hope he's OK.

PS. As a 64 yr old I got a good chuckle from your comment about writing a script, and not being around to use it:-)

Edit..have any of you used jeffos hh cntrl jsfx? Its great at taking even one midi note and spitting out up to four controlled from a user defined cc. Great on snares / rides / anything that has positional sensing.

Guido
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Old 06-28-2018, 09:22 AM   #164
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ojXcOWung-0


Hi all,
Tod, if I understand correctly your working on a kontact script to simulate hh control from a pedal thats sending cc4.
The good sample libraries out there have hat instruments that include
Tight tip..closed tip...open 1-4....pedal closed ....pedal open....then tight edge....closed edge...etc.
Some include hh bell articulations.
On the pedal I use..Roland fd7.... It seems the Cc output gets finer as I get to the bottom physicly. What I mean is it uses less values of the total 128 when approaching open.

All the good drum romplers allow you to set how much of the poss 128 values each articulation gets. Also, they have curves that manipulate the incoming midi data..cc4.

One thing is that on an ac kit one of the first things drummers check when they set up their kit is lowering the top hat so that the angeled bottom hat is almost touching the top part when your foot is at open rest. So physicly there's not a lot of foot movement...tho there are preferences diff between people. But I've never had a guy sit in on my kit and adjust the openness...tho they move everything else..sobs:-)

Which leads me to...

I think 2 or 3 max artics of closed/tight would be plenty. With envelope,pitch, and possibly sample start time reacting in between those artics.

One more thought,
Many libraries (not all)and especially the Roland modules I've used, have a open 4 artic that's the sound of the hats so open it doesn't touch the bottom hat. Most drummers try to avoid that sound! Cept for maybe a bell like hit or maybe a crash.
I hope my verbal diarehha has given you any insight that you can use.

Glennbo has a ac kit waiting to be recorded. I'm shocked he hasn't chimed in. Hope he's OK.

PS. As a 64 yr old I got a good chuckle from your comment about writing a script, and not being around to use it:-)

Edit..have any of you used jeffos hh cntrl jsfx? Its great at taking even one midi note and spitting out up to four controlled from a user defined cc. Great on snares / rides / anything that has positional sensing.

Edit 2.... I've been trying to find out how this guy did the esnare mod for years. Tried to contact him but....link to vid at top.



Guido
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:12 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Tod, if I understand correctly your working on a kontact script to simulate hh control from a pedal thats sending cc4.
The good sample libraries out there have hat instruments that include
Tight tip..closed tip...open 1-4....pedal closed ....pedal open....then tight edge....closed edge...etc.
Some include hh bell articulations.
On the pedal I use..Roland fd7.... It seems the Cc output gets finer as I get to the bottom physicly. What I mean is it uses less values of the total 128 when approaching open.
Thanks much Guido, this is a big help. So that makes 7 then without the bell? Regarding the finer values, do I understand correctly? As your pedal
gets closer to the top, it would have increasingly smaller values as you get closer to 0?

Quote:
All the good drum romplers allow you to set how much of the poss 128 values each articulation gets. Also, they have curves that manipulate the incoming midi data..cc4.
Okay, that's good to know. For the pitch, I will probably have a set exponential curve, not sure.

Quote:
One thing is that on an ac kit one of the first things drummers check when they set up their kit is lowering the top hat so that the angeled bottom hat is almost touching the top part when your foot is at open rest. So physicly there's not a lot of foot movement...tho there are preferences diff between people. But I've never had a guy sit in on my kit and adjust the openness...tho they move everything else..sobs:-)
So you have a setting to set the degree of openness? With samples I think "open" is "open", or maybe you're talking about something else here. I
understand about real hi-hats, heh heh, I've played with so many drummers, as I think about it I can see him adjusting it in my mind.

Quote:
I think 2 or 3 max artics of closed/tight would be plenty. With envelope,pitch, and possibly sample start time reacting in between those artics.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking 2 or 3, and yeah, the pitch would start somewhere at the beginning of the tightness.

Quote:
One more thought,
Many libraries (not all)and especially the Roland modules I've used, have a open 4 artic that's the sound of the hats so open it doesn't touch the bottom hat. Most drummers try to avoid that sound! Cept for maybe a bell like hit or maybe a crash.
I hope my verbal diarehha has given you any insight that you can use.
Aah, okay, so that's what you were talking about as far as setting the openness? So if the openness of the 2 cymbals is set the way you like it, they will
touch if you hit the top with the stick? Or if you hit it hard enough?

Quote:
Glennbo has a ac kit waiting to be recorded. I'm shocked he hasn't chimed in. Hope he's OK.
Actually I haven't seen him for a while, so yeah, hope he's okay too.

Quote:
PS. As a 64 yr old I got a good chuckle from your comment about writing a script, and not being around to use it:-)
Ha ha, this is absolutely true. I actually have a lot on my plate, even though I'm retired. On a normal week I spend 8 to 10 hours in my studio every
day. I spend about half my time on the few clients I have left, and the other half doing a varity of things. Creating instruments and scripts for Kontakt,
making custom actions and icons for my Reaper, experimenting, putting songs together for my wife and daughter. Heh heh, the list is kind of endless,
but I love it, it give me a reason to get out of bed in the morning, and that gets very important when you get my age.

Quote:
Edit..have any of you used jeffos hh cntrl jsfx? Its great at taking even one midi note and spitting out up to four controlled from a user defined cc. Great on snares / rides / anything that has positional sensing.
No I haven't as of yet.

Thanks again Guido
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:57 AM   #166
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Hi,
How do I do the multi quote thing...sorry. I'll try from computer.
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Old 06-28-2018, 11:55 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,
How do I do the multi quote thing...sorry. I'll try from computer.
Hit that little button to the right of "quote" for each post you want to reply to then when ready, click Reply.
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:02 PM   #168
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Todd, what is scripting MIDI like in Kontakt? In js, it involves manipulating the binary/hex fields/values of MIDI messages to get things done. For example, to grab note on/off status, using a bitwise AND might be required. This is the stuff that I have been sorting through in my free time over the last couple of days. Is Kontakt MIDI scripting higher level than that?
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:39 PM   #169
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Todd, what is scripting MIDI like in Kontakt? In js, it involves manipulating the binary/hex fields/values of MIDI messages to get things done. For example, to grab note on/off status, using a bitwise AND might be required. This is the stuff that I have been sorting through in my free time over the last couple of days. Is Kontakt MIDI scripting higher level than that?
Yeah, in Kontakt there's nothing like that, basically at this point I'm just dealing with an ahd envelope and pitch. I
might also need a little EQ unless the other articulations take care of that.
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:05 PM   #170
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Look what the cat dragged in...

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Old 07-01-2018, 12:26 PM   #171
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Look what the cat dragged in...

Cool man!!! Be sure to let us know what you come up with dude...

Sorry I've been AWOL, but something really unexpected popped up, a friend asked me to sit in with his band on the 4th, & I've been practicing with 'em to do the gig...It's been almost 18 years since I've played a gig, so I've been busy over here...After the gig, things should turn back to normal here, as I really don't wanna get back into gigging, I just told my buddy I'd help him out for this one...
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Old 07-01-2018, 02:46 PM   #172
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Cool man!!! Be sure to let us know what you come up with dude...

Sorry I've been AWOL, but something really unexpected popped up, a friend asked me to sit in with his band on the 4th, & I've been practicing with 'em to do the gig...It's been almost 18 years since I've played a gig, so I've been busy over here...After the gig, things should turn back to normal here, as I really don't wanna get back into gigging, I just told my buddy I'd help him out for this one...
All good and no worries, I'd expected to play with it this weekend but time didn't allow, I'm sure I'll wire it up soon though.
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Old 07-01-2018, 02:56 PM   #173
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All good and no worries, I'd expected to play with it this weekend but time didn't allow, I'm sure I'll wire it up soon though.
It's cool man, this gig came up really unexpectedly & I've been busy trying to get ready for it...

Thanks!
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Old 07-01-2018, 02:56 PM   #174
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It's cool man, this gig came up really unexpectedly & I've been busy trying to get ready for it...

Thanks!
Always take the gig! I wasn't waiting on anyone anyway really except me LOL.
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Old 07-01-2018, 05:00 PM   #175
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It's cool man, this gig came up really unexpectedly & I've been busy trying to get ready for it...
Heh heh, been there done that. Back in the early 80s I got a call on a Thursday from a rather well known trumpet player/band leader, asking if I could fill in the guitar slot. The gig was on Saturday night so I was more than a little apprehensive. However, they did have one practice on Friday night, and when I got there, the leader Stan Mark, handed me a chord chart and said have at it. On top of it all the guitar played a lot of lead, this was back in the days of Conquistador, and probably 3/4 of the arrangements required lead guitar.

I admit, I was scared, but I got through it and even had a good time, At my old age now, it's even one of my most memorable moments. I felt kind of okay about my performance and later on I got a "few" pats on the back, which kind of meant something, because the players were all top jazz players, and Maynard Ferguson was the following act.

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Always take the gig! I wasn't waiting on anyone anyway really except me LOL.
I'm anxious to see what you come up with to Karbo. I'm starting to realize that no matter how good the hi-hat I come up with might be, it's really down to the e-kits as to whether it all works or not.

That won't stop me because I think I can still come up with something that can be edited to sound good. I kind of like this idea, that one note for the hi-hat basically does it all.
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:12 PM   #176
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Today I finally got over the js basics and MIDI message basics humps (after some wine to relieve the binary induced head cloud). Too bad I didn't notice the js syntax change from msg23 to msg2 msg3 until after I got a good headache, but I can do it either way now. Now it's just down to setting up any needed calculations for...

Expanding CC4 values of 0-90 (open-closed) to values of 0-127. This was my original itch to scratch for the TD-11. I guess the caveman route would be to get the value and apply a progessively smaller sum to the original value. For example, if a value of 90, add 37, working down toward, if a value of 0, do nothing.

Modifying the response curve. Or maybe setting up an array so that each value can be tweaked invidually through a process of playing and hitting + and - buttons to change the response for each level of openness. Maybe an easier way to work with this would be to set up a toggle for making 2 toms act as + and - increments.

Any ideas or thoughts?

Another thought that came to mind: Setting up an oscillator in js to pipe out over an audio output, through a pot, and back into an audio input where the signal level would be converted to MIDI CC4, acting as a hi-hat controller. The pro being no need for a drum brain to do hi-hat pedal control, and the con being that the latency might be too high.
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Old 07-01-2018, 07:23 PM   #177
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Yay. Got my first working js plugin. It just expands CC4 values from 0-90 to 0-127. I'm just changing the slope by multiplying the incoming value by 1.42 for now. I guess for this rough and ready approach I could use some simple piecewise functions for creating some transisiton points and maybe knock up a basic gui for making adjustments using a mouse. But I have only played with the basic graphic functions so far, and I probably don't know what trouble is in store for making things interactive. I guess that will be for another day.
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Old 07-01-2018, 07:29 PM   #178
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Yay. Got my first working js plugin. It just expands CC4 values from 0-90 to 0-127. I'm just changing the slope by multiplying the incoming value by 1.42 for now.
Good one brainwreck, have you tried it on your kit yet? If I can help you in any way, let me know, especially if you've got Kontakt.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:07 PM   #179
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Good one brainwreck, have you tried it on your kit yet? If I can help you in any way, let me know, especially if you've got Kontakt.
Yea, I tried it with the TD-11. Through the plugin it puts out CC4 0-127, with the same 0-90 resolution of course; nothing I can do about that.

But I'm kind of putting the cart ahead of the horse here. I still haven't went back to test Ezdrummer and Addictive to figure out for sure how they switch between openness ranges according to CC4 values.

I have Kontakt, but I just don't use it. I don't have time for learning it and for learning to effectively use all those virtual instruments. And Jesusonic might just end up covering everything I need and later want anyway. That is, with the exception of the samples themselves. But after a little jesusonic exposure therapy, I could absolutely see knocking up personally useful sampler(s), synth(s) and effect(s) in js (assuming that js performance allows for working with a large pool of samples). But thanks all the same for the offer of help with Kontakt.
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Old 07-01-2018, 09:43 PM   #180
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FSR into the Arduino Micro via ADC. I used a 1k resistor in series to get the sensitivity right (it matched minerman's findings fairly closely without the resistor as far as being unwieldy). I'm placing considerable pressure to get it up to 127 so the resistor I ended up using was based on that type testing. The FSR starts infinite resistance then the lightest pressure comes in at a few hundred k, then high pressure gets it down in the few hundred ohms range.



I'll turn that into MIDI CCs and send to Reaper next time I get a chance to sit down and toss that code in to test.
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:48 AM   #181
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Getting cautiously excited over developments. Wish I could contribute.
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:20 AM   #182
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FSR into the Arduino Micro via ADC. I used a 1k resistor in series to get the sensitivity right (it matched minerman's findings fairly closely without the resistor as far as being unwieldy). I'm placing considerable pressure to get it up to 127 so the resistor I ended up using was based on that type testing. The FSR starts infinite resistance then the lightest pressure comes in at a few hundred k, then high pressure gets it down in the few hundred ohms range.



I'll turn that into MIDI CCs and send to Reaper next time I get a chance to sit down and toss that code in to test.
Nice Karbo, very nice...I wasn't kidding when I told you it was pretty sensitive & hard for me to control, especially with my foot...

I won't have time for much at all until after the gig (Wed), but things should go back to normal after that...

This is pretty exciting to me too, with some luck & practice, the amount of midi editing may drop a bit for me because of you guys...

Thanks!!!
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:25 AM   #183
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I don't know how the drum brain handles the FSR so I can only test with so much certainty - above I had the privilege of being both the sensor and the drum brain internals. What's the little metal box on your pedal? I noticed in the "not yours" screenshot there are some components soldered up (resistors/capacitor) - knowing what that is/for may give me a clue.

I'm still going to send those as MIDI CC4 to Reaper/AD Drums soon just to see what happens.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:17 AM   #184
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I don't know how the drum brain handles the FSR so I can only test with so much certainty - above I had the privilege of being both the sensor and the drum brain internals. What's the little metal box on your pedal? I noticed in the "not yours" screenshot there are some components soldered up (resistors/capacitor) - knowing what that is/for may give me a clue.

I'm still going to send those as MIDI CC4 to Reaper/AD Drums soon just to see what happens.
If I'm thinking of the same metal box, it's just a housing for the FSR, & a way to mount the 1/4" jack...I think...I'm pressed for time at the moment, but if that doesn't explain it enough, I'll be back tonight sometime & clear it up...Loading up some more gear & heading out the door...

BTW, I know the fsr works with all my drum brains, it was just so squirrel-ly it was easier just to use the hh controller that came with each kit...

Be back later...
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:20 AM   #185
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That looks cool Karbo, would it need the brain to just send the CC4s? And is that a sponge of some kind
your using? I would imagine if it were under the hat pedal it would go back about half way or so?
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:37 AM   #186
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That looks cool Karbo, would it need the brain to just send the CC4s?
I can send them easily with that Arduino (just in front of my hand in the video) - I'll add some code to do that soon. Without a drum module brain, I can't reverse engineer how they handle the FSR. It can only be a handful of methods but without one, I don't know what those are and can't give others an exact circuit/method to make it plug and play - though I'm sure I can get close.

A note of interest: This morning I searched for FSR DIY Hi-Hat and what few I saw used an external voltage divider just like I did so there is likely hope.

Quote:
And is that a sponge of some kind
your using? I would imagine if it were under the hat pedal it would go back about half way or so?
Yes, it's a very stiff foam that came from a product box. I chose it to distribute the weight more evenly since one of the hi-hat pics in ^previous replies, had a peg under the HH pedal. That FSR seems somewhat OK without the foam but seemed like a good idea to keep extreme pressure changes spread out a little and keep from damaging it. As far as the mechanics, I don't have a hi-hat pedal to work with but that part is sort of a different phase of investigation IMO - Meaning, I wanted to do some basic testing to understand how the FSR might work and some basic testing CC4 values to Reaper.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:44 AM   #187
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Yea, I tried it with the TD-11. Through the plugin it puts out CC4 0-127, with the same 0-90 resolution of course; nothing I can do about that.
It should help though, unless you can set the exact numbers you need in the drum VSTi. You mentioned 1.42, so I imagine
the drum VSTi would have to handle decimals. The latest Kontakt updates can do that (handle decimals) but those prior
to K5.6 can't. Can you use arrays in JS, or do you have to use the formula itself.

Quote:
But I'm kind of putting the cart ahead of the horse here. I still haven't went back to test Ezdrummer and Addictive to figure out for sure how they switch between openness ranges according to CC4 values.
Yeah, I think what you find could be very useful.

Quote:
I have Kontakt, but I just don't use it. I don't have time for learning it and for learning to effectively use all those virtual instruments. And Jesusonic might just end up covering everything I need and later want anyway. That is, with the exception of the samples themselves. But after a little jesusonic exposure therapy, I could absolutely see knocking up personally useful sampler(s), synth(s) and effect(s) in js (assuming that js performance allows for working with a large pool of samples). But thanks all the same for the offer of help with Kontakt.
You don't need to know anything about Kontakt to do this, it would basically be just plug and play.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:58 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Getting cautiously excited over developments. Wish I could contribute.
Hey my friend, ha ha, when the time comes you may regret you said that.

I just finished my clients album yesterday, which is a big weight of my shoulders, so I'm going to have more
time going forward.

Right now I've got my kids and grandkids here from ND, it's my 75th today so I suppose there's some planning
going on for later on that I'm not aware of.
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:27 PM   #189
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Here is a jsfx test utility for exploring how any drum sampler might react to CC4 values. It just eats any incoming CC4 value and provides a new one according to the slider position (0-127). So you can move the slider by increments of 1 while tapping your hi-hat (or sending the appropriate hi-hat note via the virtual midi keyboard) to see at what value the sample sets change for openness in your sampler and if anything else is going on when changing the CC4 value.

It justs replaces your hi-hat pedal so that you don't have to impossibly try and hold the thing still in one position, and it doesn't require that you disconnect your hi-hat pedal since it eats any incoming CC4 value.

Code:
desc:Hihat openness tester

slider1:100<0,127,1>CC4 value

@slider

cc4_val = slider1;

@block

while (midirecv(offset,msg1,msg2,msg3)) (

	status = msg1&240;
	ctrl_num = msg2&127;

	(status == 176 && ctrl_num == 4) ? (
		ctrl_val = slider1;
		midisend(offset,msg1,msg2,ctrl_val);
	):(
		midisend(offset,msg1,msg2,msg3);
	);
);
Just a reminder about jsfx: copy/paste the code to a text file and save to (Windows 7 any way): C:\Users\<your-username>\Appdata\Roaming\Reaper\effects\<your-folder>

And load it up ahead of your drum sampler, of course.

Edit: cleaned things up a bit.
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:51 PM   #190
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Todd, jsfx seems to handle number conversions for MIDI, so I didn't have to do anything on my part when multiplying by 1.42. And an array can be used with jsfx, but I haven't needed to yet, so no experience with it yet. Today I have been trying to wrap my head around creating gui elements. Rough going so far.

Also, using the test utility in the last post, you can test any of the samplers that you use to see how they react to changes in CC4 values. It would be interesting to see some posts on what each drum sampler/hi-hat sample set is doing, because some of us own samplers that others don't.
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Old 07-02-2018, 02:58 PM   #191
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A bit of info from testing Ezdrummer. Each alphabetic letter marks a new sample set, responding within the given CC4 values.

Code:
Ezdrummer2 - 14" Sabian HHX Groove - Tip articulation

Closed		CC4 value
A		127-126
B		125-120
C		119-90
D		89-60
E		59-8
F		7-0
Open



Ezdrummer2 - 14" Paiste Giant Beat - Tip articulation

Closed		CC4 value
A		127-120
B		119-90
C		89-60
D		59-29
E		28-8
F		7-0
Open



Ezdrummer2 - 14" Sabian HHX Manhattan - Tip articulation

Closed		CC4 value
A		127-126
B		125-120
C		119-90
D		89-60
E		59-30
F		29-8
G		7-0
Open

Going further, we can find out if the same values are true for shaft articulations. And we can bounce between two values at the boarder of two ranges and listen for what is going on for the transition between ranges. Is it simple switching, crossfading, or something more? Providing user configurable min and max values would be handy here for tinkering with these transitions.

What I notice right away is that there isn't much CC4 range provided for the more closed sample sets, at least for two of the hi-hats. So for myself, it will be handy to have a new jsfx for modifying that to taste. In other words, this isn't a pedal/drum brain problem. It is an issue in the sampler.
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:51 PM   #192
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The Arduino I'm using for the test is behind my hand on the little white breadboard. Hopefully the amount of pressure to reach 127 can be gleaned by watching my hand (it's a good bit, more like a foot would do well with) and the curve feels very much like pressing a real hi-hat feels when you think of pressing harder and harder to smash it shut more.



@minerman

I think your FSR can work, you just need to figure out how the brain 'sees' it and adjust accordingly. I'm not compensating for anything other than the 1k resistor to get the start/stop of the range in the sweet spot. On a side note the very stiff foam spreads the pressure out more evenly, which actually results in a better but slightly smoother response - IOW without it, the pressure is in a smaller area which actually makes it *harder* to get to 127 while still being slightly more erratic with in the lesser pressure ranges because there is no shock absorber so to speak between the pressure and the sensor. I'm mentioning because in your screenshot the foam looks far to weak to reliably serve that purpose.

I really need to build an analog envelope filter or wah with one of these on it for my pedal board.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:08 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
A bit of info from testing Ezdrummer. Each alphabetic letter marks a new sample set, responding within the given CC4 values.

Code:
Ezdrummer2 - 14" Sabian HHX Groove - Tip articulation
Closed		CC4 value
A		127-126
B		125-120
C		119-90
D		89-60
E		59-8
F		7-0
Open

Ezdrummer2 - 14" Paiste Giant Beat - Tip articulation
Closed		CC4 value
A		127-120
B		119-90
C		89-60
D		59-29
E		28-8
F		7-0
Open

Ezdrummer2 - 14" Sabian HHX Manhattan - Tip articulation
Closed		CC4 value
A		127-126
B		125-120
C		119-90
D		89-60
E		59-30
F		29-8
G		7-0
That's some good info bw, especially if we can narrow down the articulations.

Quote:
Going further, we can find out if the same values are true for shaft articulations. And we can bounce between two values at the boarder of two ranges and listen for what is going on for the transition between ranges. Is it simple switching, crossfading, or something more? Providing user configurable min and max values would be handy here for tinkering with these transitions.
May I ask what "shaft" articulations are, I don't think I've heard that word used before in relation to the drums.

I checked Studio Drummer and they've only got 4 positions. The values are where each articulation starts. They also don't have any
means to change anything regarding articulations or values, what you see is what you get.

Tight starts at 127
partial closed starts at 51
partial open starts at 38
more open starts at 25

Quote:
What I notice right away is that there isn't much CC4 range provided for the more closed sample sets, at least for two of the hi-hats. So for myself, it will be handy to have a new jsfx for modifying that to taste. In other words, this isn't a pedal/drum brain problem. It is an issue in the sampler.
Yeah, and I think this will always be a problem unless the sampler can provide the means to set up values as well as articulations in any
desired configuration. Within reason of course.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:31 PM   #194
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Tod, 'shaft' is also called 'edge', meaning that rather than strike the top of the hi-hat with the tip of the stick, you strike the edge of the hi-hat using the shaft of the stick. And 'tip' is also called 'bow'. Tip gives more attack and less decay, where shaft gives less attack and more decay (more sizzle).

Playing around more with the transitions, I think there is always going to be the issue of sudden sonic changes between openness ranges, given so few ranges to work with. We don't hear these transitions on a real hi-hat because the overall range from closed to open is essentially infinite vs. 4 to 7 ranges (what we know so far) for an e-hat.

But working with what we have, I think that giving the closed ranges more pedal room would be a good thing. Also, it might be beneficial (at user discretion) to completely leave out the fully open range (where the hats aren't touching or barely touching) and maybe even ignoring the last two open ranges. Personally, at least for Ezdrummer2, I don't need the very last open range, and I'll have to experiment a bit to see if I need the second to last open range. And reclaiming that pedal movement room for the other ranges could help in making changes between ranges to feel not so sensitive to pedal movement. For example, by ignoring the last two open ranges for the hi-hats in Ezdrummer 2, there would be 30 to 60 more values worth of pedal movement available for the remaining ranges. Implementing this would be pretty much the opposite of what I did for my first jsfx plugin (expanding value range), where the value range might be shrunken to say 127-60 across the full pedal movement range. In other words, 127 would be sent when the pedal is fully closed and 60 would be sent with the pedal fully open. Keeping in mind that this is backward for what you are describing for Kontakt's CC4 behavior.

Another thing here is that I haven't yet looked at the sampler behaviors of changes between ranges, and it just might be that we only need say, 4 to 7(!) CC4 values, across the entire pedal movement, given the limited available ranges.

But say for minerman's itch, of the pedal feeling too sensitive, I think the major factors would be either greatly increasing the openness ranges of available samples (guessing, something like 12-16 minimum number of ranges) or going in the other direction and reducing the number of ranges to a minimum. I know those two things sound counter to each other, but I think it makes sense if you think it over. And the problem with the second approach is that it will feel more like shooting in the dark to find an openness range with the pedal, where it already feels something like that now. The best way to go sonically would definitely be to go in the first direction, greatly increasing the number of ranges to likely something around 16 or more. But given the amount of data being streamed for hi-hats, that might be a system performance problem.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:19 PM   #195
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Too bad there isn't a really good modeled acoustic hi-hat. It could alleviate the problem of limited openness ranges. But it would take some really heavy calculations in order to get something that actually sounds authentic from fully closed to fully open. There is so much variation in the sound of an acoustic hi-hat. But now I know more about why Roland took a modeling approach.
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Old 07-03-2018, 07:51 AM   #196
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Thinking more about this e-hat stuff this morning. How I see it, here are the issues that make an e-hat not so great to play:

Limited openness ranges of sample sets. This makes changes in pedal positions sound sudden, say when changing the pedal from fully closed to just slightly closed. On an acoustic hi-hat, the change is continuous, and there is nothing to think about; you just play and react to what you hear. Where on an e-hat, you play and try to deal with the switching that you hear (sudden sonic change between sample sets).

Pedal/hit synchronization. On an acoustic hi-hat, changing the pedal position has an immediate (and potentially very subtle) effect on the timbre of hi-hat, even whether you ever hit the hi-hat or not. So it doesn't matter whether you hit first or move the pedal first. On an e-hat it does matter; you must hit first to trigger the sound. So on an e-hit you must make a conscious effort to change the way you play to fit how the tool works, always hitting before moving the pedal to a new position. This seems to be universal due to how electronic hi-hats work.

Lack of change in samples when moving the pedal after a hit. As far as I can tell, only toontrack's samplers provides for change in sample sets via pedal movement after a hit. For example, hitting a closed hat and then opening it changes between sample sets according to pedal position in toontrack's samplers, where it does not in other samplers. And hitting open and then slowly closing the pedal changes the sample sets according to pedal position in toontrack's samplers, where a sudden closing of the hat is required in other samplers, which switches directly from the current open position to the closed position sample sets without anything inbetween.

Non user configurable pedal positions in some samplers.
Some drum samplers do not provide means for adjusting pedal position to openness of sample sets. You just get what you get, and if it doesn't work for you, then you must find some type of workaround. So far, we know that ezdrummer2 and native instruments don't provide any means for adjusting user configurable pedal positions.

The above points also may have an effect on foot-chick and pedal-splash. I haven't been using either of these articulations so far because they don't seem to reliably trigger, and they don't seem expressive as on an acoustic hi-hat.

There is alot of room for improvement of e-hats. And from my experience so far, I think it is a glaring issue. What do you e-drummers think about all of this? What do you think would be good in terms of effective workarounds?
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:43 AM   #197
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I just found that Jeffos already made a jsfx long ago for adjusting CC4 value ranges to openness of samples for those samplers which don't provide a means to do so (post #24): https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=37580

Also, Darkstar listed it here in his useful list of third party jsfx: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=33795

Edit: Whoops! I misinterpreted what that plugin does. It maps incoming notes to desired outgoing notes at specified CC values. What I want is to map incoming CC4 values to to desired outgoing CC4 values with no changes to outgoing notes.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:44 AM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
@minerman

I think your FSR can work, you just need to figure out how the brain 'sees' it and adjust accordingly. I'm not compensating for anything other than the 1k resistor to get the start/stop of the range in the sweet spot. On a side note the very stiff foam spreads the pressure out more evenly, which actually results in a better but slightly smoother response - IOW without it, the pressure is in a smaller area which actually makes it *harder* to get to 127 while still being slightly more erratic with in the lesser pressure ranges because there is no shock absorber so to speak between the pressure and the sensor. I'm mentioning because in your screenshot the foam looks far to weak to reliably serve that purpose.

I really need to build an analog envelope filter or wah with one of these on it for my pedal board.
Thanks Karbo, one more practice today, the gig tomorrow & things will be back to normal here, where I'll basically have 24/7 to do whatever...The FSR works will all my modules & drum vsti's, it's just getting myself to wire the resistor in, & try some different foam/whatever to find out what works best for me over here...I think the resistor/foam will do the trick, can't thank you enough man...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Also, it might be beneficial (at user discretion) to completely leave out the fully open range (where the hats aren't touching or barely touching) and maybe even ignoring the last two open ranges.

But say for minerman's itch, of the pedal feeling too sensitive, I think the major factors would be either greatly increasing the openness ranges of available samples (guessing, something like 12-16 minimum number of ranges) or going in the other direction and reducing the number of ranges to a minimum. I know those two things sound counter to each other, but I think it makes sense if you think it over. And the problem with the second approach is that it will feel more like shooting in the dark to find an openness range with the pedal, where it already feels something like that now. The best way to go sonically would definitely be to go in the first direction, greatly increasing the number of ranges to likely something around 16 or more. But given the amount of data being streamed for hi-hats, that might be a system performance problem.
I've already done that with my drum vsti's/e-kit, Brainwreck...I turn the splash completely off in the module, & disable the last couple/few open articulations in the drum vsti...Even with some of the music I (attempt) to play, there's just no need for those articulations...

Superior 3 allows the user to adjust where the articulations start/stop with the incoming CC4, & you can even see the CC4 value for each level (Just as an example: Open 5 = CC4 35 - 1, Open 4 = CC4 36 - 55)...


Can't thank you enough either dude...

Thanks to all who've helped figure out which route to take in order to make my e-kit a little more realistic, playing-wise...I can't thank you guys enough...I have a couple more days of the band thing, & I'll be back to normal here, where I'll have all day, every day here at the house...I'm actually pretty excited to get into tweaking the e-kit/vsti's, but I have to wait until I get the gig behind me to do so...

Thanks again, I'll keep you all updated with my progress, & most likely I'll have questions about something, as usual...Thanks again...
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:01 AM   #199
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Okay, you've got me to thinking brainwreck, there might be a way to better simulate this.

Lets say we have 6 basic settings. Just because there are only 6 settings doesn't mean we can't use more
articulations and it also don't mean we can't have slightly different variations over the full 128 values
with changes on each value.

For example, lets say we have a 3/4 open for the most open and lets assign a total of 30 CC4 values for it.

3/4 open: 127 to 118
1/2 open: 117 to 108
1/4 open: 107 to 98

While the 3/4 is being played we will simulate the changes down to the 1/2 open, using the full 10 values.
This simulation would move down to the 1/2 open so that the change to the 1/2 open would be as seamless as
possible. Then continue down to the 1/4 open, then on to the next assigned value and do the same thing.

In other words use the full 128 values from open to very tight. That should be more like using a pedal on
a real hat.

Just a thought.

EDIT: Actually this should go from 0 down to 127 instead of 127 down to 0, so take that into account.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:22 AM   #200
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Tod, what do you mean by 'simulate the change'? You mean like, change the decay from below 3/4 open down to before 1/2 open starts, or something else? That might be a good workaround, I think.
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