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Old 02-10-2011, 04:11 PM   #41
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Sounds nice, Third Son.

So Veech, are you rockin'?
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Hey Veech...any progress?
So last night I finally wrapped my head around how to use EZDrummer. In the past I would select a groove I liked on the DR-880, plug the outs into my interface and record a wave of the drum track as it played for about 5 or 6 minutes. Then I would save it, go back and lay down guitars, keys, vocals, etc. Simple, no muss no fuss.

Loading just a basic pattern from EZD into Reaper wasn't working for me because I like to jam along to the drums and if inspiration hits and a decent riff or progression pops up, I just hit "record". But listening to just a 4/4 beat wasn't giving me the inspiration I wanted.

I finally figured out that I need to establish the groove I wanted, adjust the tempo, then load in different variations of the groove and assorted fills, and write it all down on a chart so I could go back to reference what I was doing. It's almost like there are too many options to choose from!

So I settled on groove 6. I loaded 4 bars of var 6 as the intro, 8 of var 10 and 8 of var 12 for the verse, 8 of var 18 as a break, back to 8 of var 10 and 8 of var 12 for the second verse then 16 beats of var 18 as an extension of the first break or maybe as a chorus.

Then I decided it needed fills so I went back and shortened each section by either a half bar or full bar and started plugging in fills. I used a 2/4 group 2 fill var 1 slow for the intro, then dropped in fills from 4/4 group 1 and 4/4 group 2 using 1 mid, 2 mid and 6 mid variations, ending the whole thing with a 4/4 group 1 var 7 comp. I probably don't need to shorten the sections, eh? Guess I could just drop the fills in over the basic pattern.

sheesh! A lot different from scrolling through pre-pogrammed sections and just hitting play. It would be cool if EZD has a song-building template or something. Or maybe it does and I haven't found it yet.

Still, once I figured all this out I was able to create an awesome drum track and laid down two guitars and a bass just doing some riffs and chords. It sounds pretty good to me so far! It's like the light bulb came on last night and I get it now.
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:29 PM   #42
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it sounds to me like you would really like jamstix. It has a song builder and a song wizzard.. you can make it play ez drummer. You cen demo it www.rayzoon.com
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:37 PM   #43
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Wow that doesn't sound easy at all!

What I do is figure out what tempo a song idea is, find a beat that compliments it, drag it onto the track then drag it out so it's like 6 minutes long. "The frame". Then I record everything else. Typically I would then "play" ezd via a midi control pad but the one time I just used ezd'4 beats and fills I jus went back and added some fills and cymbal hits.

When adding a fill you don't need to make space for it. You can just drag it right onto to the drum track and it will play instead of the beat.
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:52 PM   #44
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Wow that doesn't sound easy at all!

What I do is figure out what tempo a song idea is, find a beat that compliments it, drag it onto the track then drag it out so it's like 6 minutes long. "The frame". Then I record everything else. Typically I would then "play" ezd via a midi control pad but the one time I just used ezd'4 beats and fills I jus went back and added some fills and cymbal hits.

When adding a fill you don't need to make space for it. You can just drag it right onto to the drum track and it will play instead of the beat.
hah! yeah I totally sucked the "EZ" right out of it! I haven't configured a midi trigger yet so I'm using the stock fills. But I need to feel like I'm playing with a real drummer with fills, hi-hat change-ups, going to the ride cymbal, etc when I'm jamming. But if I get around to recording a song that I already know, I'll probably do it the way you describe.
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:53 PM   #45
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it sounds to me like you would really like jamstix. It has a song builder and a song wizzard.. you can make it play ez drummer. You cen demo it www.rayzoon.com
cool, does it play nice with Reaper?
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:58 PM   #46
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It seems to now, they've recently updated it to resolve some problems. I haven't really given version 3 much time (got the upgrade christmas) but there are quite a few users on this forum that use it extensively without problems. Even when there were issues with reaper, they get sorted quickly. The razoon community is really kick ass like reapers. Ralph (dev) is really responsive to his customer base also.
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:07 PM   #47
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if you do demo it, probably the easiest way to set it up is to load jamstix and ezd on one track put jamstix before ezd in the chain. Then in the jamstix "mixer" screen check "midi only" In the "kit" screen find toontrack> EZdrummer (i think ive not used EZD so im guessing here) this will route all the midi with EZD mapping from jamstix straight to EZD to play the EZD drums.

Then you can use the wizzard to build a song.. its really simple and I think very much inline with the way your thinking of whipping up a quick song structure. Good luck!
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:10 PM   #48
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if you do demo it, probably the easiest way to set it up is to load jamstix and ezd on one track put jamstix before ezd in the chain. Then in the jamstix "mixer" screen check "midi only" In the "kit" screen find toontrack> EZdrummer (i think ive not used EZD so im guessing here) this will route all the midi with EZD mapping from jamstix straight to EZD to play the EZD drums.

Then you can use the wizzard to build a song.. its really simple and I think very much inline with the way your thinking of whipping up a quick song structure. Good luck!
Great info, thanks!

I saw this about the demo:

* random audio noise
* very limited stock kit (reduced layers, sounds and articulations)
* no XL sounds
* MIDI output and export set all notes to 'Kick'
* Some 'Save' functions are disabled

The random audio noise thing is weird... but from this do you think I would be able to use it the way you suggest? I really only want it for the song construction element, don't need the sounds etc.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:22 PM   #49
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Just hire a REAL drummer.

Gees I hate todays world.

Full of fake drums and no soul in the music.

Are drummers the most neglected and shat on musicians of all?

FFS.


Cmon Veruca Salt guitarists.

Look after the drummer for once.

Just try.
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:47 PM   #50
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Are drummers the most neglected and shat on musicians of all?
Well, they're like lawyers. You love to hate 'em, but when you need a good one, they're worth it.

Wait, I'm a drummer. I don't get this.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:09 PM   #51
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Great info, thanks!

I saw this about the demo:

* random audio noise
* very limited stock kit (reduced layers, sounds and articulations)
* no XL sounds
* MIDI output and export set all notes to 'Kick'
* Some 'Save' functions are disabled

The random audio noise thing is weird... but from this do you think I would be able to use it the way you suggest? I really only want it for the song construction element, don't need the sounds etc.

Doesnt sound like you could set the demo up like i described. What you could do is "subhost" EZ rummer from within jamstix. youll still get the noise.. thats just part of the demo.. but it would solve the midi routing limitation of the demo.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:17 PM   #52
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Just hire a REAL drummer.

Gees I hate todays world.

Full of fake drums and no soul in the music.

Are drummers the most neglected and shat on musicians of all?

FFS.


Cmon Veruca Salt guitarists.

Look after the drummer for once.

Just try.

Theres plenty of demand for real drummers.. just not in the 10x10 room i record in at 2am when everyone else is sleeping.. When I was a gigging musician, I did feel for the drummers however.. lot of work getting them big ass cages set up and tore down. Especially when the rest of the band was hanging out with a beer (myself included of course) pointing at them and laughing at their misery.

So to answer your question, no I dont think drummers are neglected or mistreated in any way.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by thequietroom View Post
if you do demo it, probably the easiest way to set it up is to load jamstix and ezd on one track put jamstix before ezd in the chain. Then in the jamstix "mixer" screen check "midi only" In the "kit" screen find toontrack> EZdrummer (i think ive not used EZD so im guessing here) this will route all the midi with EZD mapping from jamstix straight to EZD to play the EZD drums.

Then you can use the wizzard to build a song.. its really simple and I think very much inline with the way your thinking of whipping up a quick song structure. Good luck!
If you route the midi from 1 vst to another it's not sample accurate--inadequacy in the vst standard.

have a good one
3Eo
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:35 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by smasha View Post
Just hire a REAL drummer.

Gees I hate todays world.

Full of fake drums and no soul in the music.

Are drummers the most neglected and shat on musicians of all?

FFS.


Cmon Veruca Salt guitarists.

Look after the drummer for once.

Just try.
I understand how you feel.

I had a real drummer for many years. But those days are far behind me and my only options now are what is available in my small office on my computer.

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Theres plenty of demand for real drummers.. just not in the 10x10 room i record in at 2am when everyone else is sleeping..
Bingo!
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:38 PM   #55
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of course i was teasing on my last post.. I loved all the drummers I jammed with.. great drummers are some of the most impressive musicians out there.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:41 PM   #56
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Doesnt sound like you could set the demo up like i described. What you could do is "subhost" EZ rummer from within jamstix. youll still get the noise.. thats just part of the demo.. but it would solve the midi routing limitation of the demo.
I joined the forum and asked this question and the site admin (and I assume a developer?) Ralph answered right away with:
--------------------------------------
Yes, you can try the song builder in the demo. You can also use EZDrummer grooves as building blocks in Jamstix and load EZDrummer into Jamstix for sound generation.

Let me know if you need any help.
--------------------------------------

Good quick answers, that's a plus! even though I wasn't ready to spend $100 just yet on another program. I will d/l the demo and report back.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:11 PM   #57
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All I can say about Jamstix is that it's fantastic. The feel you get from drummers is pretty close to the real thing. Plus, you can tweak the settings until you puke. And as a plus, stock samples are not bad at all! All I could ask from Ralph is more automatable parameters.
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Old 02-11-2011, 12:40 AM   #58
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Just hire a REAL drummer.

Gees I hate todays world.

Full of fake drums and no soul in the music.

Are drummers the most neglected and shat on musicians of all?
Nah, I also want to replace the bassist... anyone knows of a good bassist VSTi?


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Old 02-11-2011, 03:49 AM   #59
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Nah, I also want to replace the bassist... anyone knows of a good bassist VSTi?


Careful, I was the bass player in the band!!
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:33 AM   #60
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Now, with jamstix, does it like keep the same verse it used the first time around for the other verses etc? Or is it just a bunch of random stuff?

~Rob.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:20 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by smasha View Post
Just hire a REAL drummer.

Gees I hate todays world.

Full of fake drums and no soul in the music.

Are drummers the most neglected and shat on musicians of all?

FFS.


Cmon Veruca Salt guitarists.

Look after the drummer for once.

Just try.
Real drummers are quite happy using my e kit to trigger EZD and Superior.
This isnt about real vs fake drummers, it is about the practicalities of tuning miking and recording a real kit vs. playing with samples of a well miked tumned and recorded kit.

When I can afford a huge room with great acoustic and a wonderful set of drums, plus the outboard and mics plus the expertise I`ll dump the drum romplers.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:46 AM   #62
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Now, with jamstix, does it like keep the same verse it used the first time around for the other verses etc? Or is it just a bunch of random stuff?

~Rob.
It uses the same basic groove, but adds variety (if you want it to) just like a real drummer would. Plus, it can automagically add repetition and transition fills. And accents, where needed. And everything can be tweaked.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:14 AM   #63
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Now, with jamstix, does it like keep the same verse it used the first time around for the other verses etc? Or is it just a bunch of random stuff?

~Rob.
I believe you can copy parts and it copies all the brain settings also so you would get the same performance. So you definately can get it to re-use verses.. or you can tweak the settings to get subtle to major variations between verses.
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:52 AM   #64
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I'm using EZD with Reaper and have an annoying problem...having filled in some beats and stuff in, say, BPM 204 and then changes the tempo, the MIDI doesn't sync and spaces appear between the bits with higher tempo or lie stacked with lower tempo... Don't know if I call things with their right names... I'm a musician, not recording engineer, but it's a powerful tool when composing songs... Any help? Thanx!
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:57 AM   #65
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EzDrummer can be a nightmare to authorise, Iv'e been a registered user for at least 5 years now, and yesterday I make the mistake of checking for updates to my 3 products, I now find myself locked out and it looks like the Toontrack site is down. Ebay here we come...
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:51 AM   #66
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I'm using EZD with Reaper and have an annoying problem...having filled in some beats and stuff in, say, BPM 204 and then changes the tempo, the MIDI doesn't sync and spaces appear between the bits with higher tempo or lie stacked with lower tempo... Don't know if I call things with their right names... I'm a musician, not recording engineer, but it's a powerful tool when composing songs... Any help? Thanx!
Go to project settings and set the timebase to beats.

D
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Old 02-17-2011, 03:46 PM   #67
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Go to project settings and set the timebase to beats.

D
I need to try this... I notice that EZDrummer gets fussy if I change the tempo in Reaper. I am struggling with the Jamstix demo and am seriously wondering if it's worth futzing with along with paying $100 for.

I joined the EZDrummer forum and will browse there, maybe post to get other people's opinions of Jamstix.
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:40 PM   #68
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I've been dicking around with EZdrummer for a few weeks, and I'm a complete novice at all of this...

I'm a drummer and I'm programming my drum parts of my band's songs into reaper and then passing them on to the bass player/guitarists, etc...for demoing purposes. I'm getting pretty good at programming them exactly as i play them irl.

However, is there an "easy" way to get each drum to show up as a separate track?

I know that I can cut and paste them out of the main track to their own tracks, but holy shit that would take some time.

Any suggestions?
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:47 PM   #69
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I've been dicking around with EZdrummer for a few weeks, and I'm a complete novice at all of this...

I'm a drummer and I'm programming my drum parts of my band's songs into reaper and then passing them on to the bass player/guitarists, etc...for demoing purposes. I'm getting pretty good at programming them exactly as i play them irl.

However, is there an "easy" way to get each drum to show up as a separate track?

I know that I can cut and paste them out of the main track to their own tracks, but holy shit that would take some time.

Any suggestions?
Right-click the MIDI. Click 'Item processing' and then select 'Explode MIDI by note row (pitch)'.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:17 AM   #70
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Right-click the MIDI. Click 'Item processing' and then select 'Explode MIDI by note row (pitch)'.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

thank you!!!!!!
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:22 AM   #71
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Four points I have learned about EZ Drummer [which does sound great].

First, the company sucks in that support is bad and they do not listen to customers. The standard non-responsive response I get is, "Sorry for the inconvenience...."

Second, watch out for their crappy habit of telling you that you are NOT registered, which forces you to go back to them, and either re-submit your computer ID and authorization number, or beg for them to give you NEW f@#%ing numbers so you can continue to use the product. This happens to me every few weeks.

Third, I have come to find the right beats/patterns AFTER composing and recording a song. [I know, I know, all the advice says START with the beat]. But I look at my composition (either in MIDI melody tracks or on manuscript paper) figure out where the changes should be, where the fills should be, how fast, etc. THEN I go to the EZDrummer VSTi [actually "DFHToontrack"] and browse their offerings for what is required at each location in the composition.

Also I have found that Reaper's MIDI editor is great for creating custom stuff out of the EZDrummer pieces. For example, you can't find 5/4 grooves, but they can be 'glued' together out of 3/4 plus half a 4/4. (Of course if everything straight 4/4 everywhere, snooze, that does not apply.)

Fourth, I have had fun moving MIDI notes INTO and OUT OF EZDrummer tracks. Grab a couple of measures of a groove, COPY it, paste it into a track with a piano or organ plugin, move the notes up or down into key, reduce the volume, and you can get cool comping patterns out of it.
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:06 PM   #72
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It uses the same basic groove, but adds variety (if you want it to) just like a real drummer would. Plus, it can automagically add repetition and transition fills. And accents, where needed. And everything can be tweaked.
Question: does Jamstix use all EZD sounds when adding fills and accents?

Question 2: EZD has quite a few variations for fills. If I make a change to a fill in Jamstix, does it look for the closest thing in EZD and use that? Does it ever reach a point where Jamstix degrades the quality of the EZD samples?
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:03 PM   #73
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First, the company sucks in that support is bad and they do not listen to customers. The standard non-responsive response I get is, "Sorry for the inconvenience...."
I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with our tech support. I've searched our registered user database and couldn't find you as a registered user. I did find your forum account (with 'msore' username) but there was no product registered to it.

Anyways, If you'd like me to help you with your issues, please feel free to PM me here on the Reaper forum or over on the Toontrack forum and I'll do my best to help you out.
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:20 PM   #74
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Four points I have learned about EZ Drummer [which does sound great].

First, the company sucks in that support is bad and they do not listen to customers. The standard non-responsive response I get is, "Sorry for the inconvenience...."

Second, watch out for their crappy habit of telling you that you are NOT registered, which forces you to go back to them, and either re-submit your computer ID and authorization number, or beg for them to give you NEW f@#%ing numbers so you can continue to use the product. This happens to me every few weeks.

actually no the company doesnt suck at all. when gc screwed up and didnt give me toontracks vssd box when i bought some of their stuff their north american prez rick currence sent me that box overnight. thats awesome service. plus their support forum is the tits. the only problem i had authorization wise was when i updated reaper to 3.75 i was asked to authorize ezplayer but all my authorizations had been used up. shot them an email in which no begging was invloved regarding the situation and the next day they cleared up my authorizations. fast and prompt customer service. and i use S2 and ezd live. theres not a drummer in my town that can play blast beats @300 bpms and if there was id probly still use toontrack instead.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:41 AM   #75
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Gonna have to step in and say something here. The people at Toontrack have been absolutely great to me.

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Four points I have learned about EZ Drummer [which does sound great].

First, the company sucks in that support is bad and they do not listen to customers. The standard non-responsive response I get is, "Sorry for the inconvenience...."
Never had that problem, and I've needed them before. They have a support forum, and you can generally get answers and help as needed. It might not be immediate, but who could possibly expect that from a company overseas? It doesn't appear realistic to me.


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Second, watch out for their crappy habit of telling you that you are NOT registered, which forces you to go back to them, and either re-submit your computer ID and authorization number, or beg for them to give you NEW f@#%ing numbers so you can continue to use the product. This happens to me every few weeks.
I've -NEVER- had that happen. If you follow the instructions and register your product, you should be good to go. Also, as a form of CYA, it's generally a good idea to keep any and all e-mailed confirmations and receipts in case this should happen.


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Third, I have come to find the right beats/patterns AFTER composing and recording a song. [I know, I know, all the advice says START with the beat]. But I look at my composition (either in MIDI melody tracks or on manuscript paper) figure out where the changes should be, where the fills should be, how fast, etc. THEN I go to the EZDrummer VSTi [actually "DFHToontrack"] and browse their offerings for what is required at each location in the composition.
I've done the same. Often, you'll find that their patterns aren't exactly what you were seeking. You have choices after that. Either buy more grooves (offered by Toontrack, GrooveMonkee, or OddGrooves) or learn to use the MIDI editor in your DAW.

For the record, I have drum patterns from all three companies and can vouch for the quality of their product. If you're creating music or just covering someone else's song, there will still be times you need to modify things to fit.


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Originally Posted by msore View Post
Also I have found that Reaper's MIDI editor is great for creating custom stuff out of the EZDrummer pieces. For example, you can't find 5/4 grooves, but they can be 'glued' together out of 3/4 plus half a 4/4. (Of course if everything straight 4/4 everywhere, snooze, that does not apply.)
Toontrack, GrooveMonkee, and OddGrooves all offer drum pattersn to fit your needs. Reaper's MIDI editor is awesome. When I -DO- find myself needing something I don't have currently, I open the editor and start hacking away until I've got the groove I'm seeking. You're probably going to have to do the same.


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Originally Posted by msore View Post
Fourth, I have had fun moving MIDI notes INTO and OUT OF EZDrummer tracks. Grab a couple of measures of a groove, COPY it, paste it into a track with a piano or organ plugin, move the notes up or down into key, reduce the volume, and you can get cool comping patterns out of it.
This doesn't appear to be a problem. I've done the same. Kind of cool, isn't it?


The only additional advice to offer is this...
-It may benefit you quite a bit to invest more time in familiarizing yourself with their products. Toontrack makes great stuff.
-It might not hurt to purchase some of the grooves offered by Toontrack, GrooveMonkee, and OddGrooves. The people I've dealt with at each company are fantastic. Plus, if you purchase some patterns that are in the style you prefer, it might help ease the frustration of finding the right groove.
(This is, of course, assuming you haven't already done so.)

If I sound like a biased fan, I am.
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveofjazz View Post
-It might not hurt to purchase some of the grooves offered by Toontrack, GrooveMonkee, and OddGrooves. The people I've dealt with at each company are fantastic. Plus, if you purchase some patterns that are in the style you prefer, it might help ease the frustration of finding the right groove.
(This is, of course, assuming you haven't already done so.)
I might have to check into this. I love the sound samples EZDrummer uses but I am not finding the variety of grooves that I want.
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Old 02-20-2011, 09:47 AM   #77
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Veech, have you checked out Toontracks EZ Player pro? Basicly you place it before ez drummer in the FX. Then you add sections to build your song. Check thier demo on youtube.
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Old 02-20-2011, 10:10 AM   #78
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EZplayer is great for new MIDI creation. It breaks down the MIDI grooves into kit pieces (Kick, Snare, Toms, Hi-Hats, etc.) and you can then take a kick pattern from one groove and mix it with a snare pattern from another groove and then a hat pattern from a third groove and then spit out the new groove result.

I also like EZplayer for jamming to when playing guitar and coming up with ideas. This works great with the newer Toontrack MIDI libraries that use longer grooves. I can drop 5 of these longer groove onto 1 Arranger track onto separate 'layers', set the loop points and then select 'random' playback and the different variations play back randomly like you're playing with a 'real' drummer. Fun.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:44 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by s_sibs View Post
I also like EZplayer for jamming to when playing guitar and coming up with ideas. This works great with the newer Toontrack MIDI libraries that use longer grooves. I can drop 5 of these longer groove onto 1 Arranger track onto separate 'layers', set the loop points and then select 'random' playback and the different variations play back randomly like you're playing with a 'real' drummer. Fun.
This sounds great and is almost exactly what I am looking for. I checked out the EZPlayer demo on YouTube and it looks interesting, I am leaning towards this instead of Jamstix although the ideal would be a combination of the best features of both.

Along with an "instant jam" function I am also looking for the simplest way to modify existing grooves and create my own. Sometimes I hear a beat in my head and it's easier to just create it instead of clicking through a bunch of grooves that are barely different from each other to find one that matches what I'm hearing in my head. My DR-880 has an "add ghost notes" option which would be cool to have as well.

I am looking for a lot more variation in the available grooves although I want to stay with pop/rock, maybe with some heavier rock styles without going into thrash or death-metal stuff.

Which Toontrack MIDI libraries use longer grooves?

Thanks all for the great feedback!
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:14 PM   #80
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This Toontrack Rock Songs add-on looks very interesting to me, has anyone here tried it?

https://www.toontrack.com/products.asp?item=96

How about this Songwriters Drumpack?

https://www.toontrack.com/products.asp?item=71

These look like a good deal, inexpensive downloads with a bunch of different grooves and styles, this is what I'm looking for. I wonder if these can be used with EZPlayer as well?

Last edited by Veech; 02-21-2011 at 01:19 PM.
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