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01-27-2023, 04:30 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 111
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Drum mics
I'm making multi-velocity samples of my snare drum collection. I'm using a CAD E-200 and Audio-Technica AT2835. Both condenser mics that I've had success with for vocals and acoustic guitars and horns. But the results are very hit or miss with the drums, and sometimes I reach a dead end on a given drum. Am I fighting a losing battle with these mics, and if so what would be some recommendations? Thanks in advance.
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01-27-2023, 04:57 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 376
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Dynamic mics are more commonly used on drums. Typical suggestions would be a Shure SM57, Sennheiser MD604 or MD421 or maybe a Beyer M201 if you want a flatter sound. Even some of the cheap drum mic sets can sound surprisingly good if you are on a tight budget.
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01-27-2023, 05:05 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,075
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For snare drums, a humble Shure SM57 (or an SM58) could be all the close miking you need.
Mixing in a decent condenser mic, probably a little further out, can enhance the sound - or make it worse, depending on many factors including phase relationships.
No doubt someone more knowledgeable will chime in.
EDIT - Aww, @jamesp beat me to it!
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01-27-2023, 05:09 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,613
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Maybe if you're recording close mic'd snares these two would need a pad engaged to prevent overloading. The CAD has a pad switch, the AT doesn't.
Does the room sound OK on it's own? I've always found that in a good sounding room any mics on drums will sound good, and in a not so good sounding room even the best mics can only make it sound like an accurate capture of a snare in a crummy room
More info?
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01-27-2023, 05:10 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesp
Dynamic mics are more commonly used on drums. Typical suggestions would be a Shure SM57, Sennheiser MD604 or MD421 or maybe a Beyer M201 if you want a flatter sound. Even some of the cheap drum mic sets can sound surprisingly good if you are on a tight budget.
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Thanks very much. I've got a 57 and a 58, but haven't been pleased with the results. My mixer might be a concern. It's a relatively inexpensive Yamaha, and though it's been fine for everything else, I wonder if the preamps are as substantial as they need be for quality drum samples. I'm finding what works for music, doesn't always translate well into making high-quality samples. I've gat a nice collection of rare vinage drums, so if I have so spend a little to get what I'm looking for,then so be it. I very much appreciate the reply.
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01-27-2023, 05:17 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze
Maybe if you're recording close mic'd snares these two would need a pad engaged to prevent overloading. The CAD has a pad switch, the AT doesn't.
Does the room sound OK on it's own? I've always found that in a good sounding room any mics on drums will sound good, and in a not so good sounding room even the best mics can only make it sound like an accurate capture of a snare in a crummy room
More info?
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I've got a studio, but my living room has the best acoustics. Lots of cushy furniture for baffling. The drums sound great in the room. When I print them is when they suck. See my response below. It has occured to me that my mixer may be a problem. It has worked fine for my music, but I'm finding sampling to be a completely different type of recording. And I'm not sure why. Thanks for the reply. EDIT: the AT actually does have a pad switch as well, but engaging them on both mics make them sound like they're underwater. Same with the pads on the mixer.
Last edited by stephenpaulharper; 01-27-2023 at 05:24 PM.
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01-27-2023, 05:54 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 9,055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenpaulharper
Thanks very much. I've got a 57 and a 58, but haven't been pleased with the results.
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I'd use the 57.
Currently I'm using a Sennheiser E604 on the top of my snare and an Audio Technica AT2020 on the bottom with its phase reversed.
Before I bought a set of 3 E604s for snare and toms, I was using SM57s. They are both dynamic mics. The E604s have capsules very similar to the MD421s, which make the drums jump out a bit more.
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Glennbo
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01-27-2023, 06:06 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,205
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Mic the side of the snare instead of the top/bottom. Results are way more realistic when using a condenser. Adjust vertically for balance
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01-27-2023, 06:20 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
I'd use the 57.
Currently I'm using a Sennheiser E604 on the top of my snare and an Audio Technica AT2020 on the bottom with its phase reversed.
Before I bought a set of 3 E604s for snare and toms, I was using SM57s. They are both dynamic mics. The E604s have capsules very similar to the MD421s, which make the drums jump out a bit more.
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I haven't had good results with the 57 on my snares. That's only for sampling. For just micing a kit, it works well on the snare, but as I said, I'm finding music and sampling to be slightly different. I will check out your other mic recommendations. Thanks kvery much.
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01-27-2023, 06:25 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler
Mic the side of the snare instead of the top/bottom. Results are way more realistic when using a condenser. Adjust vertically for balance
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I will try that. Thank you. You've replied to some of my posts before. Your band rocks. Progressive rock is mostly what I do, but I love both funk and hip-hop.
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01-28-2023, 01:24 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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I'd use all the mic's.
57 on the batter head to pick up the stick attack, condenser a little distance from the resonant head (side on the snare, as suggested), and the other condenser as a room mic (I'd experiment with pointing it up at a corner for more diffusion).
Check the phase relationship of all the mic's, blend and process to taste, then render as a single file to use in a sampler.
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01-28-2023, 01:58 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
I'd use all the mic's.
57 on the batter head to pick up the stick attack, condenser a little distance from the resonant head (side on the snare, as suggested), and the other condenser as a room mic (I'd experiment with pointing it up at a corner for more diffusion).
Check the phase relationship of all the mic's, blend and process to taste, then render as a single file to use in a sampler.
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Thanks very much. I have been expermenting with differing mic configurations. The 57 on top sounds the best, but I'm not satisfied yet. I should elaborate a bit. I making instruments for my edrum module, to be played on an electronic drumkit. Software from Pearl Drums enables you to make your own instruments for their Mimic Pro edrum module. I am sampling my rather extensive vintage snare drum collection. The snares are comprised of about 130-odd wav files. The goal is 9 velocity layers, with 6 round robin hits, per articulation (center, edge, rimshot, sidestick, rim click). You can add FX after the instrument is in the module, so the goal is to have high-quality, but raw samples. I will do both direct and room mic versions of each snare drum. The recording process is not as tedious as it might seem. Dynamic transient splits, and peak sorting in Reaper automate a lot of the instrument recordings required, I'm just not getting consistently good raw wav files. Yet. Thanks again.
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01-28-2023, 07:42 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 1,088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
I'd use all the mic's.
57 on the batter head to pick up the stick attack, condenser a little distance from the resonant head (side on the snare, as suggested), and the other condenser as a room mic (I'd experiment with pointing it up at a corner for more diffusion).
Check the phase relationship of all the mic's, blend and process to taste, then render as a single file to use in a sampler.
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Exactly. When you hear a snare, for example, you're not just hearing the mic that was 2 inches away from it. You're hearing that mic plus the overheads, plus possibly a room mic, and even the leakage into other mics. Just listening to a snare track on its own will almost never sound "good".
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01-28-2023, 08:06 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
I'd use all the mic's.
57 on the batter head to pick up the stick attack, condenser a little distance from the resonant head (side on the snare, as suggested), and the other condenser as a room mic (I'd experiment with pointing it up at a corner for more diffusion).
Check the phase relationship of all the mic's, blend and process to taste, then render as a single file to use in a sampler.
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This makes the most sense to me.
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01-28-2023, 08:17 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,779
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The biggest things/differences are probably mic distance, position, room acoustics and the drum itself.
You aren't used to hearing drums with your ear a few-inches away! And your ears hear directional room reflections differently than a microphone. ...The mic picks-up the reflections/reverb but without the 360 degree directional cues.
The main difference in sound "quality" or "character" with different mics is frequency response and that can be tweaked with EQ.
Condensers have a built-in "head amp" which can clip with loud sounds if there is no "pad". It's virtually impossible to overload the SM57/58 or most dynamic mics which is the main reason dynamic mics are usually preferred for close-mic'd drums.
The mixer is (probably) not the problem. The mixer (any preamp) will add noise but you would have identified that as a problem. You can also clip (overload) a preamp but usually the fader attenuates the input so you can just lower the gain. Or with close-mic'd drums you may be able to switch it to "line" which has much less gain.
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01-28-2023, 09:27 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 111
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Thanks for all of the great suggestions. So far, this setup has given me the best results. 57, 3 inches from the top of the drum. 58, 6 inches below the resonant head. The CAD and Audio-Technica condensers as room mics, about 6 ft. from the drum. Pads off on the concensers and the 57, but on the condenser mixer channels Thanks again for sharing your expertise.
Last edited by stephenpaulharper; 01-30-2023 at 10:06 AM.
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