Old 06-26-2020, 12:11 PM   #1
Narayan
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Default Headphone Amp/DAC

After much deliberation I ended up buying HD650s a few weeks ago. I thought they sounded poor, and that what people had said about the "sennheiser veil" was true. When I spoke to the retailer, I was told that I would need an amplifier to improve the sound if I didn't have one.

I have tried looking for advice on which Amp/DAC to buy for them, but most of the articles online seem oriented towards the Hi-Fi leisure listener rather than music makers (aside from a dated Sound on Sound article which mentions the Grace M902). I'm looking for thoughts and recommendations on what to get, and I'm interested in what your individual setups are and whether you do or do not use one.

Thanks
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Old 06-26-2020, 01:04 PM   #2
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I think every set of headphones has a "veil" compared to open-air monitors. I suppose if I were to get a dedicated headphone amp, though, it would be a Schiit Audio Magni 3. As it is, I just use any available mixer as a headphone amp.
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Old 06-27-2020, 02:27 AM   #3
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HD600 and 650s have a slightly darker balance than many headphones. Nice revealing headphones nonetheless but not so much airy zing. The clarity is nonetheless excellent for the price and a headphone you can use for longer, fatigue free.

Excellent headphones like these are far more revealing than the vast majority of loudspeaker monitors in real rooms - you hear everything in a mix laid bare. What all of them lack is that more natural soundfield formed by crosstalk at the ears - see HRTF. Also the visceral punch of the bass is missing, but then again the best headphones are way better at actually telling you what's going on in the low end.

I use HD800 and HD600 but mostly use loudspeakers.
I listen through a Hifi system and through a Soundblaster X-A5 card that actually has a decent quality headphone amplifier built in (turn off the processing). I picked that up as a used item. It drives the headphones perfectly well, and the drivers have been stable compared to older Soundblaster X-Fi (X-Fi was iffy and randomly changed settings when the PC was restarted).

Last edited by Softsynth; 07-13-2020 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Get rid of plural "s" off HD800 as I don't have HD800"s."
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Old 06-27-2020, 02:36 AM   #4
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There's (at least, to my knowledge) three correction software products that you can put in your Monitor FX section. Sonarworks, toneboosters Morphit and that new one the name of which has slipped my mind. Demo each of them, as they sound different and only then decide if you really need a dedicated headphone amp (been there - didn't buy one!).
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Old 06-27-2020, 02:56 AM   #5
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Those headphones have a high impedance, so your current amp probably doesn't have enough juice to power them properly. This is what I used with my HD600s for years when I didn't have an audio interface capable of powering them well:

https://jdslabs.com/product/objective2/
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Old 06-27-2020, 02:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narayan View Post
After much deliberation I ended up buying HD650s a few weeks ago. I thought they sounded poor, and that what people had said about the "sennheiser veil" was true.
Sennheiser veil?

These are maybe the best headphones for less than 1000 € or $!
Either your exemplar is damaged or you would have to listen
carefully again.

Many cheaper headphones have exaggerated highs to simulate better
transparency. But that doesn't really work, because the high
frequencies sound harsh and unbalanced.

The difference is as follows: Imagine in back left there is a
triangle quietly sounding. With most headphones you will not hear
this triangle - in a dense sound - at all. With cheaper high-frequency
headphones you will hear a hissing sound instead of the triangle
- at least. With the Sennheiser HD600 you can really hear the
triangle - with its typical sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narayan View Post
When I spoke to the retailer, I was told that I would need an amplifier to improve the sound if I didn't have one.
Any headphone-amp would do it.
For instance:

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Old 06-27-2020, 04:08 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Any headphone-amp would do it.
For instance:

Sorry for intervening. No.
Those cheap headphones amps, and *especially* any Behringer, suffer severely from not enough headroom (underpowered circuit). The result is a squashed or heavily colored signal even at lower volumes.
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Old 06-27-2020, 06:02 AM   #8
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The best headphone amp you're going to find without spending over 2k:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...hone-amplifier

Aside from sounding great, you can bypass the level pot on this unit so that it's wide open, and then you can connect it to another speaker output of your monitor controller and control the level with your normal monitor controller level pot, just like the speakers. And you can also easily go between speakers and headphones without accidentally having them both on at the same time. I have mine connected to speaker output 2 and I love the fast switching between phones/speakers.

Or, if you want something more mobile that is a DAC/Headphone amp combo. This:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...hone-amplifier

The HD650s are pretty good, nothing wrong with them but if you really want to go next level, try the Audeze LCD-1 or if you have a larger budget, Audeze LCD-X.
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Old 06-27-2020, 08:47 AM   #9
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Respectfully suggest a detailed check with Schiit Audio in So California. Interaction is a bit tedious (e-mail), due to COVID-19 restrictions, but was able to sort personal questions and needs. Lectures about monitors vs headhphones seems inappropriate these days, as most serious Users are well aware, and use headphones for very different reasons.

I chose DT880 Pro 600-ohm and definitely needed DAC + Preamp/Amp. IMHO results have been very good, comparing to Focusrite Saffire Pro14 I/F (and older Senn fones).

Many great HDFone Amp choices, and disagree heartily with comment re. >$2k. Current usage is Schiit Audio MODI DAC + Asgard 3 Amp. Less than $400. total with upgraded cables.
Chose to drive from ASUS MB with Toslink digital Out.

PLZ note: Asgard 3 Preamp drives powered monitors nicely ..... (BUT, NOT BOTH HDFones and Spkrs at same time !!) __ Must remove HDphone jack for speaker use. Convenient within arms reach, on desktop, but wish it could be done with front panel switch. Fine choice here, at price point, built in Calif, and 5-year Warranty.

If budget allowed, would go with Bifrost DAC + Jotunheim Amp @ < $1,200.

Good luck with choices.

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Old 06-27-2020, 09:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
Sorry for intervening. No.
Those cheap headphones amps, and *especially* any Behringer, suffer severely from not enough headroom (underpowered circuit). The result is a squashed or heavily colored signal even at lower volumes.
Haha, I wonder what your evaluation is based on. I don't have this
little box myself, but I did a quick check on my credible favourite
site. There you can read:

Quote:
The MicroAMP stays as far as possible in the background as far as sound is concerned. During my test runs I could not detect any significant discoloration in the spectrum, which was also confirmed in measurements. For its size, the small bolide also behaves surprisingly level stable. Even at higher volumes there was no distortion. The operational amplifiers keep what they promise and are extremely low-noise.
Source: https://www.bonedo.de/artikel/einzel...mp-test/2.html

Also the "output impedance" is 80 Ohm, so there shouldn't be any problem!
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sostenuto View Post
.. Lectures about monitors vs headhphones seems inappropriate these days, as most serious Users are well aware, and use headphones for very different reasons.
I don't consider it an insulting lecture to discuss such things (or mansplaining as that silly saying goes - if a woman is reading it!).
Maybe it's basic information for most reading this thread perhaps but certainly not that obvious for every reader that will come across this thread I assure you.
It can be intimidating for newbies if advanced users always assume an advanced level of knowledge on every subject.

Nice cans choice btw.
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:32 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
It can be intimidating for newbies if advanced users always assume an advanced level of knowledge on every subject.
+ 1, yes.

It can also be intimidating, that a newcomer has finally just about
made up his mind to get some decent headphones, then start a
discussion about high-price or high-end headphones and preamps.
I find that a little perturbing!
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:41 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Haha, I wonder what your evaluation is based on. I don't have this
little box myself, but I did a quick check on my credible favourite
site. There you can read:


Source: https://www.bonedo.de/artikel/einzel...mp-test/2.html

Also the "output impedance" is 80 Ohm, so there shouldn't be any problem!
Maybe a candidate for testing then!?

My evaluation adresses the older version of the box you've posted (a distortion unit) , but mainly their 19" model, which is ubiquitous in German studios. As a drummer, I've had the "pleasure" to monitor backing tracks, the other musicians and myself in recording situations several times (own pair of headphones) until I explicitely asked studios which headphone amp they'd submit. In case the answer was "Behringer", I brought my own Yamaha HiFi amp.

That said, I hate loud headphones signals, and the Beh always sounded extremely wrong.
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Old 06-27-2020, 10:24 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
I don't consider it an insulting lecture to discuss such things (or mansplaining as that silly saying goes - if a woman is reading it!).
Maybe it's basic information for most reading this thread perhaps but certainly not that obvious for every reader that will come across this thread I assure you.
It can be intimidating for newbies if advanced users always assume an advanced level of knowledge on every subject.

Nice cans choice btw.
Yeah ... point taken ... although chose not to use 'insulting' in my dialog

Kinda can-of-worms these days when raising headphone or microphone topics, given massive separation to serious, professional applications.
OP did, in fact, state: "... I have tried looking for advice on which Amp/DAC to buy for them ... "

Have researched both headphones/ amps, and vocal microphones/ preamps, intensively over past months. Struggled to compare or sort applicable specifications from product to product. Interesting how comfy/complacent one can get with existing DAW config. Updating audio system for DAW #2 has been enlightening and frustrating as well. So easy to go with typical Audio I/F approach, with no true comprehension of differences with dedicated component alternatives.

Each User chooses, so no judgement here in terms of solutions.
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Old 06-27-2020, 10:59 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
+ 1, yes.

It can also be intimidating, that a newcomer has finally just about
made up his mind to get some decent headphones, then start a
discussion about high-price or high-end headphones and preamps.
I find that a little perturbing!
Yep, someone (maybe not the OP) could give up on serious audio gear if the first conversations they have are telling them to spend more on supposedly even better pricier cans!
HD650s are premium quality serious high end studio gear quality. Also while it's nice to have better headphone amplifiers (for higher output levels in particular) the biggest difference is between the headphones themselves. Expensive drive electronics are not needed to easily hear the superior control of a good high impedance headphone compared to say £150 cans designed for a compromise with compatibility with more sources such as portable battery devices.
The resistive nature is actually easier on weedy inappropriate amplifiers, but mostly they will run into problems playing loud enough with quiet sources and gobble their batteries.
I will still recommend the best headphone amplifier you can afford when funds allow.

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Old 06-27-2020, 11:15 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by sostenuto View Post
Each User chooses, so no judgement here in terms of solutions.
Yeah I wouldn't want to knock someone for choosing these quality Sennheisers, or Audeze, Grado, Beyerdynamics...
Headphones choice is as much about comfort as sound and all these will serve well, albeit with tonal differences that users will soon acclimatise to.
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Old 06-27-2020, 12:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Expensive drive electronics are not needed to easily hear the superior control of a good high impedance headphone compared to say £150 cans designed for a compromise with compatibility with more sources such as portable battery devices.
The resistive nature is actually easier on weedy inappropriate amplifiers, but mostly they will run into problems playing loud enough with quiet sources and gobble their batteries.
I will still recommend the best headphone amplifier you can afford when funds allow.
A good headphone amp sure makes a difference, and I agree that it doesn't need to be an audiophile one in the least, in fact most of those are somewhat overkill in terms of where to spend one's money. The biggest thing is getting away from anything that doesn't have the headroom, and impacts the sound or even the soundstage negatively. There are good options above the Behringer boxes and below the audiophile models.
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Old 06-27-2020, 01:20 PM   #18
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I have this one. The 3+. 99$

https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-1

Basically the 3+ (silver) is discrete and more powerful and the heresy (black) is IC based and measures better. Both mesure beyond the audible. I have the 3+ and I can't hear the noise floor at high volume on hi gain mode, so I went with this one just in case I get something extremely hard to drive in the future.

I have the AKG701, the ATG50 and the Neumann NDH20. None of them even requires the high gain mode for me.

It also doubles as a preamp, so when you unplug your headphones you can use the knob to control your monitor gain (unbalanced). I bought it to control the volume of a Bryston 2BLP, as a volume knob is not much cheaper than this preamp.
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Old 06-27-2020, 01:25 PM   #19
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@OP: what are you using now?

Why did nobody ask what is being used that is giving unsatisfactory results?

My take on headphone amps: I've used a ton. Any good interface maker is going to make a great headphone amp. There's absolutely no need for an external amp, just for your headphones, if you already have a good interface.

That being said, if I had to recommend an external headphone amp, the JDS Atom is the first choice. Check out the review from this guy.

Last thing- headphones like the HD650 have a bit of a learning curve. If you're coming from more consumer style headphones, the lack of hype is going to at first listen feel dull. I promise you, once your ears adjust within a few weeks you won't want to listen on any other headphones.
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Old 06-27-2020, 06:01 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
There's (at least, to my knowledge) three correction software products that you can put in your Monitor FX section. Sonarworks, toneboosters Morphit and that new one the name of which has slipped my mind. Demo each of them, as they sound different and only then decide if you really need a dedicated headphone amp (been there - didn't buy one!).
I tried to read up and understand why I might need an amplifier. What i read was that because of the resistance level of the phones they need a higher voltage to activate them properly. Is this your understanding? And if so, would just boosting or reducing certain frequencies not be something very different? The deficit I hear in the mid to high range of my 650s is drastically different to a Sonarworks image I saw previously showing how they perform across the frequencies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fakemaxwell View Post
@OP: what are you using now?

Why did nobody ask what is being used that is giving unsatisfactory results?

My take on headphone amps: I've used a ton. Any good interface maker is going to make a great headphone amp. There's absolutely no need for an external amp, just for your headphones, if you already have a good interface...........
I'm using a pretty basic M-audio setup but hoping to be changing interfaces soon, probably to a Scarlett 18i20. Focusrite are pretty reputed obviously, but if you look at their website they recommend (for the 18i20) headphones with a maximum impedance of 250 ohms. The 650s are 300 ohms.
( https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-...dio-interface- )


Looking at the responses, I see names like the 02 and Schiit, which appear as recommendations in online videos geared towards hi-fi enthusiasts. I take it therefor it is fair to assume that there is no categorical distinction between headphone DACs/amps aimed towards music makers (Eg Michael Grace products), and those for pure music consumers using high impedance headphones?

Thanks for all the responses.

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Old 06-27-2020, 06:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narayan View Post
I tried to read up and understand why I might need an amplifier. What i read was that because of the resistance level of the phones they need a higher voltage to activate them properly. Is this your understanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valy View Post
Those headphones have a high impedance, so your current amp probably doesn't have enough juice to power them properly.
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Old 06-27-2020, 06:59 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Narayan View Post
Looking at the responses, I see names like the 02 and Schiit, which appear as recommendations in online videos geared towards hi-fi enthusiasts. I take it therefor it is fair to assume that there is no categorical distinction between headphone DACs/amps aimed towards music makers (Eg Michael Grace products), and those for pure music consumers using high impedance headphones?

Thanks for all the responses.
The difference is generally- studio engineers are better suited for neutral speakers/headphones, as the goal is to create something that plays back well in any other listening situation. Hi-Fi only aims to create one single situation that the listener prefers, there's no need for translation.

So while you can mix on equipment branded "hi-fi", you're usually better off avoiding it for your studio. In practice, the hi-fi crowd seem to love their snake oil much more than your typical studio engineer. Probably because they have no need to buy microphones, instruments, cables, etc they just dump it all into marketed "sound-maker-betters."

Anyway, the Focusrite stuff will drive the HD600s fine. I've used the 600s for years with multiple different amps. Sounds the same on all of them, it's just a volume difference. You might have the knob pretty high but that doesn't mean anything positive or negative.
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Old 06-27-2020, 08:39 PM   #23
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Anyway, the Focusrite stuff will drive the HD600s fine. I've used the 600s for years with multiple different amps. Sounds the same on all of them, it's just a volume difference. You might have the knob pretty high but that doesn't mean anything positive or negative.
That wasn't my experience with the 18i20 (first gen) and the HD600s. Even maxing the headphone knob wasn't really enough to drive them, and I don't listen overly loud.
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Old 06-28-2020, 07:41 AM   #24
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The comments about impedance affecting how headphones sound is 100% correct. I have a couple of pairs of Hi impedance AKGs 0 140 for visitors and my original 240s that I bought in Nashville in 1981 or 2 for me - right up until I bought a pair of Sennheiser 650s.

All three are in the several hundred ohm range, which is S.O.P. in pro studios and they sound pretty naff if I use them on anything non-studio. I also have a pair of Sony MDR CD270s which are 8 ohm & sound like crap on the studio system but are great for everything else. Horses for courses.
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Old 06-28-2020, 08:53 AM   #25
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No definitive answers discovered so far, after many recent hours of searching. A key concern now, is determining valid comparisons with top-tier Audio I/F(s), and wide range of dedicated Headphone (and Microphone) preamps/amps. Massive posts on 'what sounds good to me', a few decent A/B comparisons, but nothing as scientific and objective as I prefer. BTW, fully comprehend the enormous matrix of Headphones and driving source possibilities, as well as microphones and preamps.

Large city users have definite benefit of retail sources to gain some level of physical comparison. Great convenience in past, but now in comfy, smaller location, quite isolated from these sources. Not complaining, simply desirous of accurate, comparable specifications to allow valid comparisons.

Finally, each user situation is special, which adds notable complexity. Personal issue is senior/seasoned (never abused) ears, with natural and notable high-freq fall-off. Hoping to offset this, as much as possible, with the best, affordable, devices.

Nothing would please me more than to 'know' that top Audio I/F(s) suffice. If so, why is there such vast availability and usage of far more costly, dedicated solutions for driving Headphones and connecting Microphones ???

Learning a great deal in this process and finding that both challenging and rewarding.
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Old 06-28-2020, 09:16 AM   #26
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Older guys are generally the folks with the green Foldy stuff to spare - guys that will have lost much of their high frequencies.
This may go some way to explain why a lot of Hi-fi loudspeakers, high end pro monitors and headphones tend to be a bit bright in balance - designers know their customers.
Apart from this in direct AB comparisons people typically are most impressed by the brightest most apparently detailed presentation, much like they do with the brightest TV screen, even when a calmer presentation is actually closer to the real. Even my HD800 headphones are a little brighter than I prefer, but it's a minor complaint when they are so superior across the board.
Audiophiles then spend a lifetime trying to find a happy medium of a non tiring naturalistic balance with the details they come to expect. It's great for the cables market.
Cheaper low impedance headphones typically have a flabby or nonexistent bottom end with splashy bright zingy top end. The higher impedance models in this thread are a dramatic improvement. It's hard to tolerate cheaper headphones once you've experienced good cans.

Last edited by Softsynth; 07-13-2020 at 01:37 PM. Reason: Get rid of plural "s" off HD800 as I don't have HD800"s."
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Old 06-28-2020, 10:19 AM   #27
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Yeah.... Such a broad and varied topic with detal and depth down every path. Still, frustrating to have little basis for 'techy' and objective sorting of 'processing' devices foreach individual and his/her choice of headphones and mics.

Example .... personal choice to go Schiit Audio _ Modi DAC + Asgard3 to drive DT880 Pro 600ohm Fones was tedious e-mail interaction with Support individual at Schiit Audio. How valid that interaction ?? Who knows .... Tried similar interaction with highly-touted Audio I/F provider, and courteous, but only sales-oriented result. Frustrating to base purchase on poor discourse versus 'relevant' technical specs/detail. Schiit Audio solution cost is far below many respected alternative HDFone amp choices, so budget has its impact.

Example .... Dynamic Vocal Mic choice is just as personal/varied as headphones. I have (2) quite modest mics by Shure & Audix. Again, popular choice is top-tier Audio I/F, yet there is notable list of respected, dedicated Mic amps going into large $$$. My need is for single Mic, and one current consideration is Focusrite ISA ONE (~$600.). How does User, without access to multiple devices, begin to sort likely solutions ? .... especially absent access to personal usage. I can likely be proved wrong, but I ignorantly doubt that most Audio I/F(s) provide comparable Microphone preamp quality. How to know or compare ?

OK. Bucket dump complete. Excess gas, and like most here, will make a choice, based on questionable criteria, and move forward ...... never truly knowing how good/bad/indifferent the results.

(OBTW) Older guys often have time to pursue these life-altering issues ad nauseum !

Be safe !
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Old 06-28-2020, 10:31 AM   #28
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That's life in general isn't it?
The grass is always greener, and maybe they paid less for their grass? - AND got better grass!, but then maybe I really need the high end grass?..
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:02 AM   #29
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That's life in general isn't it?
The grass is always greener, and maybe they paid less for their grass? - AND got better grass!, but then maybe I really need the high end grass?..
Always ! Never a doubt !! 🤣
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:45 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by sostenuto View Post
Yeah.... Such a broad and varied topic with detal and depth down every path. Still, frustrating to have little basis for 'techy' and objective sorting of 'processing' devices for each individual and his/her choice of headphones and mics.
Very! Thanks all, nonetheless!
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Old 06-28-2020, 03:06 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narayan View Post
Very! Thanks all, nonetheless!
THX for cool Thread You authored !! Happy to continue searching and learning !
----------------
Selfish, narrow example of ongoing struggle: How does one sort choice of Microphone Preamp in this 'simple' selection (of very similar cost) ?

Black Lion Audio Mic Preamp B173 (eBay) vs Focusrite Clarett 2Pre USB

Serious, real deal ... but ONLY based on Mic Pre capabilities !!!

Will benefit greatly by talents of those here, willing to share basis for their analysis !
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Old 06-28-2020, 04:02 PM   #32
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I expect this is exorbitantly priced, but the quality is no doubt as good as it gets.

https://rupertneve.com/products/rnhp...one-amplifier/
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Old 06-28-2020, 05:01 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
I expect this is exorbitantly priced, but the quality is no doubt as good as it gets.

https://rupertneve.com/products/rnhp...one-amplifier/
Actually not so bad at $500. and may well be superior to recent Schiit Audio purchase.

Present need, for Microphone Preamp, gets much more iffy (Rupert Neve) (for home studio) at ~$1,800.

I appreciate and respect your effort to post, having followed many of your contributions here for years. It gets tough wording things properly/accurately as what many read/interpret, is not necessarily what 'poster' intended.

I seldom/if ever would ask 'what should I choose?' In this Thread, I am ranting gently, about the seeming inability to determine, and compare, which published specs are most relevant for a given choice. The specific example, I gave earlier, is posing .... how does a knowledgeable buyer choose between Microphone Preamplfier X, Y, or Z. This has been much more complex for me, when Headphone/Microphone/Monitor Spkrs, are all combined in Audio I/F(s). One (whose name shall not be spoken) highly respected I/F is priced at $900. and includes all capabilities (headphone, microphone, monitor out). Is this truly possible, when top individual devices are priced well-above for one functionality ??

I would be overwhelmed to enjoy Rupert Neve's offerings, yet quite knowledgeable sources for (Vocal) Microphone Preamps point me to John Hardy M-1 @ $1,100. No matter ... as I have no valid way to choose, based on specs, etc., and must trust this source. Maybe this is today's reality and I should accept it and move on.

Thank-you @ kirk1701 !
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Old 06-28-2020, 08:17 PM   #34
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Thanks dude! What a lovely compliment! You're a mensch!

I apologize, I only skimmed the thread. I didn't notice you'd already bought something. I'm sure you'll be happy with the Schiit amp. If not, you'll be that much closer to knowing what you actually want.

I agree, it's impossible to truly test any piece of gear without bringing it home and living with it for awhile. Many retailers will allow a trial period with higher end gear. Otherwise you kinda have to take a risk. You can always return it if you don't care for it.
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Old 06-28-2020, 09:27 PM   #35
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I like the Fiio ones. They can also act as an interface with the Fiio ASIO driver. Nice to be able to mix on the go with my laptop without a big bulky audio interface.

I have the Fiio Q1 MKII and dig it. It can work as a headphone amp with the line in, but it can also double as an ASIO USB headphone out interface.
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Old 07-11-2020, 02:53 PM   #36
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After continuing to research I found a website which claims to objectively analyze performance. Audiosciencereview.com. If the many reviews online are to be believed then Schiit - as suggested - is very good, alongside the Chord products and Massdrop.

After reading this article which exalts the Massdrop Thx Aaa 789, I decided that it was the one for me - only to find it is limited edition and only made periodically despite its‘ acclaim. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-789-amp.5001/

Will have to go for a Schiit just now. Interesting that two of the ones suggested to be the best have strong cinema connections... Payments for Schiit products are to Odeon Inc, and Thx was founded by George Lucas.
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Old 07-11-2020, 04:07 PM   #37
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Hope you will be as pleased with your Schiit Audio selection(s) as I am with recent Modi DAC + Asgard 3 Amp ! Am now evaluating dedicated hardware Microphone Preamps, and realizing the need to purchase Audio I/F simply to provide connection for both Headphone and Microphone hardware amps to Desktop PC DAW.

My bad, but did not sort this in advance. Sad to pay for additional Mic & Fone capabilities just to be able to use everything at same time. Thinking Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 3rd Gen as minimum-cost solution.

Good luck with your choices !
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Old 07-13-2020, 03:06 AM   #38
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I think that this is all kind of silly. One of the best producers in heavy music, Nolly Getgood, mixes ONLY on Sennheiser HD650s and plugs them directly into his Macbook. No fancy headphone amp. I use a Mackie Big Knob+ as my monitor controller, controlling 2 sets of monitors, my HD650s for critical listening, and my Shure SE315s for tracking drums, and there's plenty of power there for them all... and if you're running a Mac, just plug them into the damn laptop.

P.S. Oh yeah, get Sonarworks Reference 4. They have an HD650 profile and it makes a HUGE difference.Just slap that plugin on your Monitoring FX and away you go
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Old 07-13-2020, 04:36 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibomber View Post
I think that this is all kind of silly. One of the best producers in heavy music, Nolly Getgood, mixes ONLY on Sennheiser HD650s and plugs them directly into his Macbook. No fancy headphone amp. I use a Mackie Big Knob+ as my monitor controller, controlling 2 sets of monitors, my HD650s for critical listening, and my Shure SE315s for tracking drums, and there's plenty of power there for them all... and if you're running a Mac, just plug them into the damn laptop.

P.S. Oh yeah, get Sonarworks Reference 4. They have an HD650 profile and it makes a HUGE difference.Just slap that plugin on your Monitoring FX and away you go
I don't doubt it.
I could (at the time regrettably) immediately tell how superior the HD800 headphones were compared to the otherwise excellent 600s on all kinds of low cost outputs before even trying them with the dedicated headphone amplifiers.
This is a comparison between high end and ultimate high end (within the realms of sanity anyway) - the 600s were so much better than any cans under say £100 it isn't funny.
What was lacking wasn't frequency response or indeed control so much as the welly to drive quiet material to satisfying levels.
The difference in quality of the moving mechanical parts or transducers far outweighs smaller differences in electronics. The distortions in transducers are generally far greater than in the driving electronics.
The quality of amplifiers does make a difference but competent design low cost circuits will still show the differences, even the headphone output of a portable music player or even TV, it's just that the former is unlikely to have the power to drive higher ohm headphones to satisfying levels with quiet or wide dynamic recordings.
I also have had a few pairs of Stax electrostatic headphones. I haven't heard the modern high end models. They were all lovely but nothing had the authority and clarity in the bass of the 800; plenty of cans give the impression of more bass with booming low end, but they all sound loose and flatulent in comparison and nothing has the top to bottom clarity.

Going back to 600 series:
You cannot go wrong with HD600/650 models, if you find them physically comfortable (with headphones you should try before you buy if possible). A very honest well controlled headphones; the difference between 600 & 650 is relatively subtle, slightly more bass warmth in 650.

Last edited by Softsynth; 07-13-2020 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Get rid of plural "s" off HD800 as I don't have HD800 model "s."
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Old 07-13-2020, 04:56 AM   #40
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FWIW, I recently became aware what people in education were using as headphones: the Sennheiser 600's. All of them, no exception. Well, all of those who responded anyway.

As these are the people studying acoustics and ambisonics, this might tell you something. Usually, if they encounter a headphone amp that doesn't drive them well, the amp is going out. Happens rarely though. Maybe with some low-end handheld recorder.

My Senn HD is fine on the RME FF400's headphone output. Detailed, balanced. Music does sound a lot better on a Mindprint box that has an old-fashioned small power amp. 1W or so. Just a pair of BD13X power transistors, no op-amp in sight. Slightly less detail, but a lot of vibe. Like a Neve

The one headphone that consistently has more detail than the Senns, is an old AT electrostatic pair. I don't use them much, cause they are the 'over the ear' type and I don't like that. And, of course, being electrostatic, they need a hefty power amp to drive the bulky transformer. Not something you'd plug into your laptop...
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