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12-14-2019, 09:38 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 92
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MIDI CC doesn't obey default curve shape
Hi,
when I record some midi and CC information, it seems the default CC curve shape isn't obeyed. See attached gif: when I insert a point, it makes it square, even though the default shape is set tot bezier.
This doesn't work the same as the automation envelopes.
Am I doing something wrong or is this a bug?
Hope someone knows, thanks
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12-14-2019, 12:27 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 412
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yes, I have posted about this recently with no responses. It either doesn't work or is obscurely hidden. As far as I can tell there are global settings at the top of the midi editor and track over-ride settings for each lane. Buy they dont work consistently and dont get remembered consistently between projects. Or maybe they do and there is a setting somewhere else yet again
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12-14-2019, 12:32 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 92
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Ah, I hadn't seen your post yet although I looked. The forums are getting proper busy..
Midi settings not remembering and carrying over to other projects or between midi tracks is unfortunately a reality about Reaper's midi editor afaik.
For now I've made a little custom action shortkey that selects all CC events and turns them into a bezier. But it's yet another thing to remember..
Hope there's another, more sticking, way to make this work. (like this: https://i.imgur.com/UJ8aARc.png)
Last edited by sproost; 12-14-2019 at 12:41 PM.
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12-14-2019, 12:35 PM
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#4
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,750
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In the current released version, the default curve shape is respected when drawing (default click+drag) but not inserting (default shift+click or double-click). This should be fixed in the current development version, and 6.02 should be released in a couple of days with the fix.
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12-14-2019, 12:38 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
In the current released version, the default curve shape is respected when drawing (default click+drag) but not inserting (default shift+click or double-click). This should be fixed in the current development version, and 6.02 should be released in a couple of days with the fix.
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Ah, awesome!
Right now "the default curve shape is respected when drawing", but only if drawing in an empty space in the CC lane -- not when drawing in between points (as in the first .gif i posted).
Great it's getting fixed. Thanks for the reply.
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01-29-2020, 04:06 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 75
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At the risk of necro-posting...
I have done a search on this problem, and this is the only post that offered a ray of hope.
It appears that despite what was discussed earlier in this thread, this problem still isn't fixed in 6.03, unless I'm missing a new setting in a MIDI menu somewhere.
Context:
I "write" my piece in Musescore, then export the MIDI file, in order to expose it to Reaper using these settings:
http://www.tightbytes.com/images/pub...Settings01.png
As I posted in NewbieLand (and I hate cross-posting, but I think I must have posted this issue in the wrong forum, as I had 65 views and no replies, i.e., too-hard-basket): in the MIDI Editor, in the 07 Volume MSB CC lane, I have the default CC curve shape set to Bezier. However, the CC curve shape shows up as Square. If I select all points and change it to Bezier, save the MIDI file, close Reaper and re-open it, it will have set the CC curve shape back to Square again.
http://www.tightbytes.com/images/pub...Settings01.png
http://www.tightbytes.com/images/pub...Settings02.png
Today, I have tried setting it to Slow start/end but it went straight back Square even before closing Reaper. It's like the setting only works while that MIDI Editor window is up. Saving the MIDI to disk does not preserve that setting.
Forgot to say... thank you to sproost for the suggestion of creating a recorded action: that will speed things up a fair bit!
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01-29-2020, 08:34 PM
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#7
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,750
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In Preferences > Media > MIDI, the defaults for "Create new MIDI items as:" and "Import existing MIDI items as:" are both set to "MIDI items (in project, recommended)" by default. If the media is in the project as a .mid file reference, as in your screenshots, CC curve shapes will not persist, because these shapes are not part of the MIDI spec -- there's no universal way to write them to the file. We should gray out all of the relevant menu items and actions when there is a .mid file reference open in the MIDI editor.
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01-30-2020, 03:32 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 75
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Thank you, schwa... I'll change how I import my files. Thanks for that!
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01-31-2020, 10:47 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Interesting. I had come across this one when converting all my old SMFs into Reaper & assumed it was either me doing something weird in the programming of the original SMF or having something that I couldn`t find set wrong!
Thanks for the explanation, Schwa!
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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04-11-2020, 09:16 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
In Preferences > Media > MIDI, the defaults for "Create new MIDI items as:" and "Import existing MIDI items as:" are both set to "MIDI items (in project, recommended)" by default. If the media is in the project as a .mid file reference, as in your screenshots, CC curve shapes will not persist, because these shapes are not part of the MIDI spec -- there's no universal way to write them to the file. We should gray out all of the relevant menu items and actions when there is a .mid file reference open in the MIDI editor.
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I must be missing something because I'm still running into issue. My recorded pitch CC's are always square, despite my defaults being set to linear.
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04-12-2020, 06:04 AM
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#11
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,750
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Because CC envelopes are not part of the MIDI specification, recorded events do not include any CC curve information. If REAPER applied the default curve shape to recorded events, then playback would sound different from what you heard when you recorded the MIDI.
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04-12-2020, 12:31 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
Because CC envelopes are not part of the MIDI specification, recorded events do not include any CC curve information. If REAPER applied the default curve shape to recorded events, then playback would sound different from what you heard when you recorded the MIDI.
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I understand this, but is there any way to prevent this behavior? See gif.
I'm recording a few notes and even though the default curve shape is bezier, adding a point in the CC lane will make it square.
Thanks
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04-12-2020, 12:54 PM
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#13
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,750
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The curve shape is attached to the event itself. If you add two or more events in a row with the mouse, you should see that the curve that immediately follows the new events is the default shape, but the curve that immediately follows a recorded event will remain square unless you specifically change that point shape, or change the shape for all points after recording.
This is consistent with how curves work on track envelopes, but we'll think about if it makes sense to add an option that would change both the previous and the current event shape when a new event is added.
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04-12-2020, 02:37 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
Because CC envelopes are not part of the MIDI specification, recorded events do not include any CC curve information. If REAPER applied the default curve shape to recorded events, then playback would sound different from what you heard when you recorded the MIDI.
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I don't totally understand the technical aspect of CC curves and how they related to recorded MIDI data, but when I go to adjust points in the envelope that I've recorded live, they are always square and it would seem like having an option to turn them into my default curve selection automatically after recording would be pretty ideal.
I would think an option to have recorded CC be set by the user (either independently of default CC, or to reference default CC) would be very useful. Speaking for myself, it would create a more expected/unified outcome, as I am expecting my default curves to ALL be linear. I find square to be rarely useful.
Last edited by explodingPSYCH; 04-12-2020 at 02:49 PM.
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04-14-2020, 06:50 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
the curve that immediately follows a recorded event will remain square unless you specifically change that point shape, or change the shape for all points after recording.
This is consistent with how curves work on track envelopes, but we'll think about if it makes sense to add an option that would change both the previous and the current event shape when a new event is added.
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Thanks, that's it.
I think it would make sense and I would really like this option. Selecting a point shape specifically is finicky.
I would also like this not in the last place because I agree with above post that the default square cc envelope is rarely useful.
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07-11-2020, 11:37 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 461
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Adding to this, would love this feature. As it stands now (6.12c) when I draw in CC events the default curve shape is obeyed. however, when I record CC events in the shape defaults to square. if I'm understanding schwa's responses correctly the issue is that I'm using a midi controller to record in the CC's and because that controller is adhering to the midi spec, there cannot be a curve shape so the data is written with the square curve shape, which just means independent events with no relation to each other.
while this makes sense from a technical standpoint, in practical use I want the ability to edit the written CC data using my default curve shape. right now I just run an action after recording to force the shape to linear, but an option to do this by default would be very useful.
has anyone found a workaround for this yet?
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07-13-2020, 08:01 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rotterdam
Posts: 94
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Is added in 6.12 dev0712:
+ MIDI: add option to apply default CC shape to recorded events [p=2270410]
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07-24-2020, 09:06 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericson
Is added in 6.12 dev0712:
+ MIDI: add option to apply default CC shape to recorded events [p=2270410]
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Yes! I'm loving this feature! This will save a lot of messing around for me.
One little issue with it so far though. Unfortunately when I turn it on, it applies the bezier shape to events recorded on CC64, (which is the hold pedal). Using the bezier shape on the hold pedal causes some strange behavior - i.e. the the hold effect cuts off earlier than it should thanks to the shape of the curve which is added.
Would love to be able to turn the "apply default CC shape to recorded events" setting on... with an exception of the hold pedal - or an exception for all of the on/off lanes.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't seem to be able to find a way to do this?
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09-12-2020, 11:00 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
Because CC envelopes are not part of the MIDI specification, recorded events do not include any CC curve information. If REAPER applied the default curve shape to recorded events, then playback would sound different from what you heard when you recorded the MIDI.
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I haven't read through all comments. But what I wonder is why I'm not able, in Midi tracks created in REAPER, to create bezier curves if is use for example cc 52-54 to control an instrument, whereas i CAN create a bezier curve if I use for example cc 7, in the very same track/item?
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09-13-2020, 05:36 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 302
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Hi, for some reason I am having trouble finding the option to apply default CC shape to recorded events. Where is it located?
EDIT: NM, found it in the MIDI Editor under Options >> CC/velocity lane >> apply default CC shape to recorded events
Last edited by explodingPSYCH; 09-13-2020 at 05:56 PM.
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09-14-2020, 04:47 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Future In Noise
I haven't read through all comments. But what I wonder is why I'm not able, in Midi tracks created in REAPER, to create bezier curves if is use for example cc 52-54 to control an instrument, whereas i CAN create a bezier curve if I use for example cc 7, in the very same track/item?
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There's a toggle option to enable this:
MIDI Editor > Options > CC/velocity lane > Allow CC shape in bank and LSB lanes (CC0, CC32-CC63)
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08-30-2021, 05:06 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H000W
Yes! I'm loving this feature! This will save a lot of messing around for me.
One little issue with it so far though. Unfortunately when I turn it on, it applies the bezier shape to events recorded on CC64, (which is the hold pedal). Using the bezier shape on the hold pedal causes some strange behavior - i.e. the the hold effect cuts off earlier than it should thanks to the shape of the curve which is added.
Would love to be able to turn the "apply default CC shape to recorded events" setting on... with an exception of the hold pedal - or an exception for all of the on/off lanes.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't seem to be able to find a way to do this?
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Were you able to find a solution for this? Messes with my CC64 data quite a bit....
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01-11-2023, 06:43 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 178
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Is this possible yet in 2023? Whenever I add points to my mod wheel with shift-click they don't obey the default curve. I've even selected all the points in the graph and set them to the same curve type too. Makes no difference. New points start linear curves.
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01-12-2023, 06:52 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,522
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Bump having issues here as well.
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01-12-2023, 07:39 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,207
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Hey, just want to chime in that beyond just greying out the inapplicable menu items, how do we signify to the user why they are greyed out so they can infer the solution (switching from .mid reference to project reference) on their own?
Last edited by Fergler; 01-12-2023 at 10:13 PM.
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