How do you judge monitors?

Evan · 01-07-2009, 05:38 PM

I have very little experience with studio monitors, and never owned any myself.

A friend of mine got a pair of Tascams (VL-5A or something similar) for his (untreated) home studio. To my ears, there is very little bass, almost like there's a highpass from around 80Hz up. And the sound totally failed to impress me in terms of 'clarity' or 'detail' or anything I would expect from specialized monitor speakers.

The speaker placement (angle) was ok (unless you're being anal), they were a bit close to a wall and room corners. The room is a typical small livingroom with furniture and curtains, no other treatment. Also, we didn't put them loud, only at casual listening/low volumes.

I suspect my ears are not trained for what to look for in studio monitors. Maybe I am not used to neutral sound. So my question is, how do I go from here? What sound material would I put through the monitors to adjust and learn how to properly evaluate sound through them? Any tips?

Thanks.

medea · 01-07-2009, 05:58 PM

Listen to Dynaudio, ADAM or Genelec :-)

Sanskrit · 01-07-2009, 07:15 PM

I think the best way to make a judgement about which monitors to buy is to first find a store, or stores, that offer lots of opportunities to listen to various makes and models side by side, or better yet lets you take them home for a demo. For my money the keys are thus:
1. Get speakers that are designed by a reputable company that make "studio monitors" like (as medea suggests) Genelec, Dynaudio, or Event, or Alesis or Fostex, or Westlake or Tannoy or Yamaha, or what-the-heck-ever. This should get you close to that notion of "neutral" or a "flat" frequency response -which is key.
2. Find combination of speakers (two or two plus a sub) that allows you to "monitor" as much of the audible range as you can afford. Read this as "neutral" or "flat" from at least 40 (or 40+) cycles up to 20k cycles.
3. Try and identify monitors that "feel good" or are "soft" on your ears. You want to avoid monitors that feel "harsh" or "edgy" as these will fatigue your ears. In my own humble experience I found certain models of Tannoy and Genelecs to be comfortable on my ears (though I could never affort these for myself!)
4. Try to identify a set of monitors that presents an accurate representation of a "known" soundstage -sounds that you know are "in the back" sound that way, and the same for sounds that you know are panned left or right.
I suppose there are lots of other things to think about, price not the least, but this is the shortlist I was using to guide my purchase. Cheers, snskrt.

dub3000 · 01-07-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan

A friend of mine got a pair of Tascams (VL-5A or something similar)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan

To my ears, there is very little bass, almost like there's a highpass from around 80Hz up.

i've heard these once and quite liked them but that was a long time ago so i'm not going to comment on their low end, but i will point out: almost all small/medium speakers can't get lower than 70Hz. you may be used to resonance tricks that make small speakers and weak subs seem to have much louder bass than they actually do.

i use a pair of mid-sized tannoys and even though subjectively there isn't an enormous amount of bass on there, i can hear *different bass tones* when they occur at the same time. a good test is amon tobin's track 'ruthless' - very well recorded track with 2-3 different layered bass drums in some points. if the speakers are any good it should sound beefy, clear, not muddy and the separate tones should be totally distinct.

i also quite like miles davis 'kind of blue' as a speaker test, but that's just because i've listened to it a lot and i'm familiar with how it sounds.

boltor · 01-07-2009, 08:23 PM

My 2 cents, FWIW, is that it's all about how your monitors translate to the real world. The sad reality is that most people listen to music on crappy stereo systems. That's why many professional recording studios also (still) have a pair of Yamaha NS-10M studio monitors in their control room along with the really expensive monitors. The Yamaha NS-10's are basically cheap speakers. The sound is not pleasant for casual listening, are very mid-range, but are considered a good reference to the typical consumer speaker. They do translate well and as the saying goes, "If the mix sounds good on Yamaha NS10's, then the mix will sound on just about anything" (perhaps not an exact quote). Bottom line: It's all in getting to know the monitors you mix on and how they translate. All monitors are colored in some way. You have to spend time with them to get to know them and how they translate. Try to listen to your mix on as many different sound systems (e.g. Ipod, car stereo, etc.) as you can. This will give you the best mix, IMO.

boltor

dub3000 · 01-07-2009, 08:24 PM

(oh, and yeah: hearing your mixes played back through a pair of duntech sovereigns out of god-knows-what kind of converters in a treated mastering room is a pretty sobering experience... but you can buy a 1-bedroom apartment for what that rig would have cost)

teleute · 01-08-2009, 06:23 AM

New monitors take a good week of use before they soften up the bass drivers rubber. So you may find they have more bass in week or two as the drivers start to move more easily.

Placing them on spikes or high density foam will decouple them from the table they are on and again this makes a big improvement to the sound, especially the bass.

They should ideally be at eye height.

But I reckon you hit the nail in the head first time when you pointed out the room is untreated.

50 quid’s worth of diy bass traps and hanging a duvet 6 inches from the back wall will have more of an effect on the monitoring than blowing an extra £500 on a monitor upgrade.

There’s a load of info on them here

http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html

As for buying a set of monitors work out what you can afford and let that be your guide, don’t bankrupt yourself, and whilst it’s a good idea to demo stuff remember the shop probably wont have them set up in a treated room or set up in a decent listening position, they’ll just be stacked next to each other a big shelf. At best you’ll be able to tell what monitor you prefer the sound of but that doesn’t mean it’s the best to mix on. I’ve found website reviews from current owners a lot more useful than demo’s, especially for finding out problem that may develop over time.

As for me I used to have some crap Samson Monitors now I have some very nice Adam a7s, they sound a staggering amount better but I could mix fine on both.

el-russo · 01-08-2009, 02:22 PM

Take an industrial CD with your favorite music that you are most familiar with to the store and listen to the recording through different monitors. Choose the speakers that sound best to you.

drillbit · 01-08-2009, 04:45 PM

I'm always fascinated how obvious the quality of speakers is. You can literally line them up in a store in order of quality, I think.

Basically in store comparison is the only way to go. My fav cheapies are Samson Rubicon 5A and I own Adam A7'a and a sub.

Evan · 01-08-2009, 04:56 PM

The problem is... it's not a problem to decide which speaker sounds good or not. HiFi speakers are made to sound good, but they are not monitors. That's the confusing part.

One's ears who are used to 'HiFi' sound and smiley EQ curves perhaps are going to be disappointed by the flatness of good monitor speakers? Or maybe not?

What music/albums would you recommend that would reveal the depth and clarity of quality monitors? Certainly not modern pop (overcompressed) music?

And in a store, how do you judge monitors if they're stacked one next to another? And would you judge a set of monitors by listening to one speaker only? Does that guarantee a good stereo field representation?

dub3000 · 01-08-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan

One's ears who are used to 'HiFi' sound and smiley EQ curves perhaps are going to be disappointed by the flatness of good monitor speakers?

definitely. i almost purchased a set of bose speakers once based on the sole criteria of "WOW THE BASS IS SO LOUD!" (i was young and stupid, okay?)

dub3000 · 01-08-2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan

What music/albums would you recommend that would reveal the depth and clarity of quality monitors? Certainly not modern pop (overcompressed) music?

some well recorded jazz (or afro funk like antibalas), some dense but not overcompressed electronica (some lcd soundsystem, amon tobin?), and a good sounding rock album (radiohead?) will cover most of the bases. pick three tracks and burn them to one cd (make sure you use a full quality original, not an mp3!).

teleute · 01-09-2009, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan

And in a store, how do you judge monitors if they're stacked one next to another? And would you judge a set of monitors by listening to one speaker only? Does that guarantee a good stereo field representation?

Exactly, that’s why I see little point in speaker demo’s.

Whatever monitor you get there will be a period of adjustment / trial and error where you get to understand the traits of the monitors. Once you understand how you monitor affects the sound you will be able to mix on it fine.

One of the reasons so many studios have NS-10’s is not because their good (their not, their fairly crap) but because it guarantees that if a prospective client comes to their studio they will go `ah NS-10’s I know how they sound, so I’ll shall be quite happy mixing here, here’s a big wodge of money` hooray for standardised mediocrity.

Things all to often become industry standard by luck, not because their brilliant, but once established everyone thinks their great, they must be, we cant all be this gullible can we. Reapers a good example of this, people piss on it without giving it chance because it cheap, then spend thousands on a Protools set up and never use 90% of the features they paid for.

But these days most of us mix only on our own set ups, so really we no longer need this standardisation to worry about.

Get what monitors you like look of and have decent reviews, then just spend a bit of time getting used to them.

Rather perversely I’d say how they sound in the shop is really of the least importance.

maa · 01-09-2009, 06:32 AM

Wait a minute.....

Before you go too far, here is a basic bit of common sense (actually uncommon)

Your 'Monitors' are like colour negatives. The speaker / room combination is so important but not how you might have thought.
This is where beginners go wrong and nobody in the business mentions this.

This is how it works:

The speaker is bright = the mix is dull
The speaker is dull = the mix is bright
The speaker has a great low end = the mix is too thin
The speaker has unreal bass around 120Hz = you guess it - the time you spend getting the bass right is not only wasted - its directly making your mix worse than not bothering.

I even know of a studio that sold off their wonderfull Genelec speakers because all their mixes sounded like dry mud!

Want to know why the Tannoy Reveal series works so well for so many on a budget?

1. They are unspectacular = (fill this in yourselves)
2. They sound a little flat and dull =

Right now back to the listening tests!

zappsunzorn · 01-09-2009, 07:16 AM

One of the problems with in store speaker evaluations is the efficiency differences of the speakers. If you are in a store comparing speakers and one is more efficient than another, and is 2-3db louder, it might be misinterpreted as sounding better, not louder. Thus we have the loudness wars.

drillbit · 01-10-2009, 09:02 PM

These points are all very valid, but still, going to a store and previewing monitors is really the best option. It's the comparison that enables you to judge the qualty and detail of the speakers.

When I previewed my Adams (a few times to make sure) the difference was so dramatic that I felt I had to spend more and get them. I was looking at KRK's but they sounded like sandpaper comparison to the Adams. My guitarist friend who is not a tech head and said I should just get KRK Rockits, was like 'holy shit, get them'. The balance and detail was what I was looking for. They had the horrid NS10s and Genelecs... that I knew so I was able to do a decent accurate assessment.

I had been mixing for years on muddy Tannoys and the instant revelation of all that detail and clarity was enlightening.