Old 01-23-2021, 10:14 AM   #1
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Default reasurround prerelease discussion

There is a major ReaSurround overhaul in 6.21+dev0123 and later builds. Please post bug reports and feedback here.
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Old 01-23-2021, 11:37 AM   #2
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very cool
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Old 01-23-2021, 11:57 AM   #3
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First off - thanks so much for this! Going to make mixing in any large speaker format so much easier! Thanks for taking on this complicated and messy world of surround!

Some things I'm noticing so far are below (but other surround uses please correct me if I'm wrong on the 5.1 stuff, been a while since 5.1).

- We have an action that sets up a 7.1.4 in the ITU standard but no preset for 7.1.4 ITU inside the actual plugin (it comes up as "user" in reasurround).

- The 5.1 ITU preset (as far as I know) is using the wrong speaker positions. Even though they are technically "rear speakers", they are normally in the same place as the actual ITU "sides" are. They are also called "surrounds" instead of rears or sides.
See this diagram for clarity here

- Would be great if the alt modifier (and others) could also change height in the TCP/MCP versions of the display. (but no worries if that's tricky to do).

-Wouldn't say no (at some point) to a resizable plugin window as it would be great to be able to make the actual "room" very big for the times when we have a lot of inputs in one reasurround at once.

I'll add more once I dip in as I've not even had time to read all the feature list stuff yet and try those out. Very exciting stuff though!
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Old 01-23-2021, 12:31 PM   #4
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This is amazing. Thanks for starting us down this road.

Those are some solid observations musicbynumbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
- The 5.1 ITU preset (as far as I know) is using the wrong speaker positions. Even though they are technically "rear speakers", they are normally in the same place as the actual ITU "sides" are. They are also called "surrounds" instead of rears or sides.
See this diagram for clarity here
In my experience this distinction between ITU and FILM is usually (except in the cases of an outside circle panner a la Adobe) ignored unless both rear and side speakers are present (7.1). I think the logic is that if there are only side surround speakers then one doesn't want a big blank spot in the back of a puck style panner where no speaker sources are fed. If one is mixing for ITU then their speakers are set up as such and the output is formatted as such. The picture on the panner does not necessarily need to reflect the layout in the room. Please explain the jeopardy of working this way if I'm wrong.
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Old 01-23-2021, 12:45 PM   #5
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-I get quite bad visual lag when touch automating a reasurround input panner even though cpu usage is very low. So bad is the lag that reaper will not put down a single automation item but drop in and out (placing several) with how many it places depending on how fast I move the panner around. This gets even worse when using the option "bypass underlying envelopes outside of automation". I tried hiding the TCP panner and still bad. Especially if you also link other panners too.
AH.. Just found something useful I hope. If I move the input in the room view then I get the issues but if I move it via the "edit all inputs" controls then it's all as expected and smooth in all ways. I thought maybe mouse polling but it does the same on the wacom

-I insanely love that we have great linking options now but it would be cleaner if when linking two or more inputs, the lowest numbered input is master to the others when moving them so that it only needs to record automation for the 1st input as the automation gets messy fast in the current form with 2 or more links. Maybe as an option as I can see benefits to both (I accept the mess though if I decide to unlink again at a later date)

-Altering height (via "alt" modifier) only seems to work when the view is in 3D mode. Would love to see if work in flat mode (could have sworn it did).

-Rotation/Expand/contract linking for automation. I can see why it's like this but I really wish there was a way to have these "Edit all input" controls somehow automatable as single entities so that we can do things like put a LFO in an automation item and rotate a sound that way rather than having to record in the automation "live" using these controls and then take the (for stereo example) 4 recorded automation lanes and edit it to make it work as a looped rotation. I don't have an answer either yet though

-Mouse modifiers (or use middle mouse) in 3d view to be able to quickly rotate the view etc.

-mouse modifer for soloing the input panner you have clicked on. This would be amazing fast way of picking out and positioning sounds when you have more than a few inputs at once (rather than doing it manually at the bottom)

-Messing about with automation just reminded me that we can't multi select the actual automation lanes so if I want to completely delete all those lanes at once I have to do it manually or perhaps by an action (haven't checked yet). I know that's out of scope but thought it worth mentioning as surround deals in "reams" of automation, more than most other uses I believe.
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
-I get quite bad visual lag when touch automating a reasurround input panner even though cpu usage is very low
Is this in all views, or only in the 3D view?
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Old 01-23-2021, 02:02 PM   #7
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Is this in all views, or only in the 3D view?
Just tested and all 3 views. (but only when moved in them. Moving via "edit selected input" knobs" is fine).

It also makes the play cursor get stuck quite a lot and this is an issue I've seen in other plugins when I've got automation showing and playing back the arrange (not even recording).

It goes away when automation is hidden.

Maybe I've got an option on that I shouldn't have but not sure what.
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Old 01-23-2021, 02:22 PM   #8
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Is this in all views, or only in the 3D view?
Also. the slow down and stutter is there even without automation if I'm just playing back a drum loop for instance and move the reasurround input panner
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Old 01-23-2021, 12:54 PM   #9
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I can see what you mean there about the space at the back. When I first set up my 5.1 (before I went to 7.1.4), I too was freaked out by the "surrounds" basically being nearly at the sides and only a bit to the rear but after reading too many dolby documents, I accepted it and deal with it using diffusion but I can see your point about it for sure. :0

I can't help feel though if the real world speakers are in that circle arc and basically are where the 7.1 sides would be then it would be nice to see them there on the preset and then use the diffusion parameter to aid in this. Especially as all other ITU speaker positions are correct.

An addition to this is that we do actually have a normal surround preset that is set up in the square "corners" configuration for 5.1 which is potentially more useful in the scenario you mentioned.

Maybe check that normal 5.1 surround preset out and see if that fits with what you mean. If so, we could hopefully get the ITU version to be in the circle with that position corrected.

Happy for others to chime in though. Nothing in surround is ever black and white!

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Originally Posted by plush2 View Post
This is amazing. Thanks for starting us down this road.

Those are some solid observations musicbynumbers.



In my experience this distinction between ITU and FILM is usually (except in the cases of an outside circle panner a la Adobe) ignored unless both rear and side speakers are present (7.1). I think the logic is that if there are only side surround speakers then one doesn't want a big blank spot in the back of a puck style panner where no speaker sources are fed. If one is mixing for ITU then their speakers are set up as such and the output is formatted as such. The picture on the panner does not necessarily need to reflect the layout in the room. Please explain the jeopardy of working this way if I'm wrong.
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:08 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
Happy for others to chime in though. Nothing in surround is ever black and white!
Or necessarily objective

I think we're touching on the great divide of post for film, Nuendo does a circular style panner (I think) and Pro Tools does a box style panner. I think that particular discussion will roughly fall along those lines. It's much easier to conceptualize those side surround speakers on a circle than in a box room where you put them somewhere along the "wall"?

At any rate, I think others with a lot more skin in the game will chime in soon.
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:12 PM   #11
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Or necessarily objective

I think we're touching on the great divide of post for film, Nuendo does a circular style panner (I think) and Pro Tools does a box style panner. I think that particular discussion will roughly fall along those lines. It's much easier to conceptualize those side surround speakers on a circle than in a box room where you put them somewhere along the "wall"?

At any rate, I think others with a lot more skin in the game will chime in soon.
Yeah definitely a good idea to see what others say. I've gave a "heads up" post in the surround forum area that there's an amazing update to get involved in so hopefully they will see it and get involved soon.
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:46 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by plush2 View Post
Or necessarily objective

I think we're touching on the great divide of post for film, Nuendo does a circular style panner (I think) and Pro Tools does a box style panner. I think that particular discussion will roughly fall along those lines. It's much easier to conceptualize those side surround speakers on a circle than in a box room where you put them somewhere along the "wall"?

At any rate, I think others with a lot more skin in the game will chime in soon.
From a film perspective, circular panners are the devil. I want something that represents the room I'm sitting in when I'm mixing. However, the greatest benefit to me of a square shaped panner, is, I can quickly throw the puck into a corner and know I have exactly put the sound only in that speaker. If I put my puck in that corner, which is fast and efficient, I know my sound is 100% only there and not accidentally spilling in somewhere else.... However, this leads me to my next post.....
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:14 PM   #13
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Would it be feasible to add binaural output to ReaSurround?

Steam Audio provides a fully-featured C SDK for binaural 3D spatialisation -- and it is free to all developers.

I've used the Steam Audio plugin in Unreal Engine and Unity 3D and it sounds amazing!
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:15 PM   #14
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This would be amazing!

Especially if automatable so we can track it with headsets

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Would it be feasible to add binaural output to ReaSurround?

Steam Audio provides a fully-featured C SDK for binaural 3D spatialisation -- and it is free to all developers.

I've used the Steam Audio plugin in Unreal Engine and Unity 3D and it sounds amazing!
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Old 01-28-2021, 12:33 PM   #15
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Default Beta testing?

Hello,

Can I jump on the Reasurround V2 beta testing bandwagon. I'm currently working on 5.1 mixing solutions for cinematics and this looks lovely overall.

Thank you,

-Chris
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Old 01-28-2021, 12:44 PM   #16
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Hello,

Can I jump on the Reasurround V2 beta testing bandwagon. I'm currently working on 5.1 mixing solutions for cinematics and this looks lovely overall.

Thank you,

-Chris
Of course you can!

Check the below thread for info about the process etc and then get stuck in!

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=22836
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Old 02-19-2021, 01:01 AM   #17
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Please post bug reports and feedback here.
Thanks schwa for all your work on reasurround2. Just catching up on a month's worth of hectic activity in reasurround2. Some things:

I'm using 6.23+dev0215 . Can you please turn the "Z shape" function into a dropdown menu with standard-sized text?

Maybe the other button-menu widgets should also be turned into standard dropdown menus.

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Originally Posted by Ice View Post
One thing I noticed right out of the gate is if I'm using reasurround2 to fold down something like 7.1 to stereo, there is no way to place CH3 (Center for example) to the center (or x=0).
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Originally Posted by sonictim View Post
Perhaps there could be a "center" button that would move the puck to the center. Or if center speaker isn't visible (stereo, or quad mode), there could be an alternate icon in its place one could double click and center the puck?
This highlights several issues.

For downmix to stereo, I usually use "JS: IX/Mixer_8xM-1xS" with Level 4 muted & Pan 3 centered. Make a default preset. It does the job. Use Pin IO routing for >8ch.

For UI changes, you could change the macro knob controls to horizontal sliders (like many other panners) with double-click reset to default XYZ positions & ctrl for fine-tuning in line with most other sliders in the RPR UI. If you must keep them as rotating knobs, please speed up the travel to 2x or 3x speed & again have ctrl to fine-tune. When you need more rotations for full L-to-R movement than the steering wheel of a car (probably), you have a problem.

It's also not possible to have exact speaker placement in "custom speakers" mode, especially as reasurround2 removed speaker XYZ control in automation. Can you also show the speakers in the channel editor button (but only if custom speakers is enabled), and show speaker XYZ as automation (like reasurround1) , so we can have exact XYZ editing of the speaker positions too?

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Originally Posted by Berg View Post
Yes, this ADM integration made by The BBC guys is amazing. We also have the MpegH Authoring tools that is another possibility to go to ADM or to MPEGH3D. All that tools are free, should Reaper propose another way to deliver ADM files ?
Yes. ADM was supposed to be a universal standard. However, the current situation is far from ideal. Different tools support different subsets, creating incompatibility. There are currently 2 "types":

- EBU EAR ADM using egocentric/polar/circular coordinates hereby abbreviated to EDM
- Dolby ADM using allocentric/cartesian/cubular coordinates hereby abbreviated to DDM

Currently, you can only make EDM in RPR using EAR. https://github.com/ebu/ear-productio...-still-missing .

The Dolby encoder only accepts DDM, which can only be made using tools like DaVinci Resolve 17 Studio. So it would be nice to make DDM in RPR (especially since reasurround seems to be using a cubular coordinate system) so that I can make (more) deliverables for Dolby Audio in RPR, instead of using other heavyweight tools.

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I would say yes, need this equal distance for the Studio Auro 3D arrangement but no for Auro 3D arrangement mixing for films (theaters), what do you think?
The official Auro panners are cubular. The current modes in reasurround2 for Auro are also cubular so reflect the official tools.

Also, Do you think it would be a good idea to remove Auro 11.1 & 13.1 modes since:
- Audio 11.1 & 13.1 are supported by the Auro encoder only, but Auro 9.1 (5.1.4) is supported by Dolby, DTSX, and Auro encoders.
- Auro 11.1+ is seldom used in practice, since most new content like films is being made in Atmos-like layouts & hence any Auro deliveries like films will be conversions to 9.1-ish
- Auro 11.1 systems should also be compatible with Auro 9.1


?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
For a 10 channel reverb.. I am adding 5 stereo reverbs and changing the plugin pin configuration. Loosing a lot of time on this . We definitely need an elegant solution for this .. pls
There's already a few elegant solutions for reverb. You can simply copypasta your reverb bus across projects. Or you can use FDNreverb https://plugins.iem.at/docs/pluginde...ons/#fdnreverb in the FREE IEM suite https://plugins.iem.at/ , up to 64ch of native multichannel reverb. But FDNreverb uses 2-3x CPU compared to multiple ReaVerbate. So, you decide the approach.

===

I might contact some users here directly about specific topics.

ED: ADM stuffs
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Old 02-19-2021, 01:18 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
Yes. ADM was supposed to be a universal standard. However, the current situation is far from ideal. Different tools support different subsets, creating incompatibility. There are currently 2 "types":
- EBU EAR ADM using egocentric/polar/circular coordinates hereby abbreviated to EDM
- Dolby ADM using allocentric/cartesian/cubular coordinates hereby abbreviated to DDM
Currently, you can only make EDM in RPR using EAR. https://github.com/ebu/ear-productio...-still-missing .
The Dolby encoder only accepts DDM, which can only be made using tools like DaVinci Resolve 17 Studio. So it would be nice to make DDM in RPR so that I can make (more) deliverables for Dolby Audio in RPR, instead of using other heavyweight tools.
Thanks for these explainations!

I have tried to exchange ADM made in Reaper with the Ear suite and the MPEG-H plugin but it was not working.

Is there somewhere a document that lists the ADM compatibilities with Dolby's?
Is it possible to import in a Dolby compatible production the ADM produced by the MPEG-H plugin?
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Old 02-19-2021, 01:40 AM   #19
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Thanks for these explainations!

I have tried to exchange ADM made in Reaper with the Ear suite and the MPEG-H plugin but it was not working.

Is there somewhere a document that lists the ADM compatibilities with Dolby's?
Is it possible to import in a Dolby compatible production the ADM produced by the MPEG-H plugin?
Looks there might be many "types" of ADM . Main thing DDM vs the rest is the coordinate system. There might be some PDFs floating round about the ADM standard & DDM. Have you tried the reverse aka MPH ADM or DDM imported into EAR?

E: I'm going off other people's explanations of ADM (thank you to those), so my understanding of ADM isn't that great.
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Old 02-19-2021, 12:02 PM   #20
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It's also not possible to have exact speaker placement in "custom speakers" mode, especially as reasurround2 removed speaker XYZ control in automation. Can you also show the speakers in the channel editor button (but only if custom speakers is enabled), and show speaker XYZ as automation (like reasurround1) , so we can have exact XYZ editing of the speaker positions too?
Yes, this would be useful!

Quote:
Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
The official Auro panners are cubular. The current modes in reasurround2 for Auro are also cubular so reflect the official tools.
Cubular panners have speakers in corners. Current Auro scheme isn't the same.
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Old 02-22-2021, 05:55 PM   #21
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Yes, this would be useful!
Cubular panners have speakers in corners. Current Auro scheme isn't the same.
Ah yes, you're right. The speakers should be in the corners for the Auro layouts to match the 1st-party Auro panners. Also, are you using custom layouts with reasurround2? What layouts? I might use it with 7.1.6.
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Old 03-04-2021, 06:44 AM   #22
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Default v6.24+dev0303 - March 3 2021

Just getting back into testing reasurround now that it's back on the map again but wanted to also say thanks for the massive push to getting Razor edits to where they are too. That's appreciated and amazing!

It would be great if "Respect XYZ flip" also worked for the scene/anchor midi/OSC control as well.

I think this has been mentioned so please forgive me if it's already on your list
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Old 03-05-2021, 03:21 AM   #23
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+ JS : channel mapper downmixer
+ zero out unmapped output channels

Nice ! thanks
Maybe the possibility to enter the precise values and show them horizontally ?
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:38 PM   #24
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Default Rotation automation?

Hey folks, I'm loving the new plugin, but I still can't figure out rotation automation.
I'm just trying to pan a mono clip following a perfect circle and at a constant speed, but there's 2 major roadblocks:

- ReaSurround rotation automation seems broken (the knob works but the automation has no effect on the coordinates, which work when automating X/Y, which I tried, but couldn't get a perfect circle https://i.imgur.com/lV1dHOZ.mp4)
- ReaSurroundPan rotation knob also works but the angle automation seems to be removed. https://i.imgur.com/98Z0Wfk.mp4

Is there anything I'm missing?
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:51 AM   #25
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Is there anything I'm missing?
Yes, you are missed a track automation mode. It should be not trim-read, as default.

But thanks, i found a bug whith automation!
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Old 05-09-2021, 04:27 AM   #26
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Default Automation BUG

There is an automation record bug.
When I have recorded one puck automation and start to rec another puck, the first recorded automation begin to re-rec.

It happens only with pucks, other parameters stay saved and haven't influence on the pucks.
Also other parameters, not pucks, think that mouse still controll them. And if I hit play again to listen or rec another param they begin re-rec.
Win 8.1

Here pucks bug.




Here mouse focus bug.




In old Reasurround all works fine.

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Old 05-09-2021, 11:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
There is an automation record bug.
When I have recorded one puck automation and start to rec another puck, the first recorded automation begin to re-rec.

It happens only with pucks, other parameters stay saved and haven't influence on the pucks.
Also other parameters, not pucks, think that mouse still controll them. And if I hit play again to listen or rec another param they begin re-rec.
Win 8.1
Good catch, am seeing it here on windows 10 as well.
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Old 05-09-2021, 03:37 PM   #28
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Reasurround pan is very cool! I started mixing a short film in atmos but I had to abandon it midway and switch to Protools mainly because of the lack of multi mono plugins. I really hope the developers will look into this.. pls.
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Old 05-09-2021, 09:56 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
Yes, you are missed a track automation mode. It should be not trim-read, as default.

But thanks, i found a bug whith automation!
I tried switching to Latch but it wasn't quite what I was looking for.
While it did allow me to record automation for the rotation, it did it by generating X and Y coordinates instead of using the angle automation (which gets completely ignored in the old plugin, and non-existent in the new one).
https://i.imgur.com/RiFK5MF.mp4

Here it's more clear that the angle automation is getting ignored: https://i.imgur.com/UGrQMGO.mp4

So the issue seems to be that the rotation knob only adjusts X/Y instead of the angle, which is what I'm looking for so I can do a smooth, circular panning, as opposed to manually recording turning the Rotation knob which isn't nearly as accurate or consistent.
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Old 05-10-2021, 02:21 AM   #30
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Here it's more clear that the angle automation is getting ignored
It isn't clear, agreed, that the angle envelope is Diffusion rotation envelope. Has sense only for diffusion with bias.
It's very optional feature, I think.

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Originally Posted by 3DJ View Post
So the issue seems to be that the rotation knob only adjusts X/Y instead of the angle, which is what I'm looking for so I can do a smooth, circular panning, as opposed to manually recording turning the Rotation knob which isn't nearly as accurate or consistent.
Alas, it's refers to old talks, when ReasurroundPan was in the devs mind only.
I can't imagine the case you need perfect circle very often. And most of surround systems can't reproduce exact circle as well. It can be close, but only in the sweetspot.
BUT! I really think, that envelopes angle + distance from center are better then envelopes x/y.
Yes, it's more complicate in math view, and for controllers needs x/y translator.
Also there is ambiguity for useful in both ITU and Theatrical setup. Angle is more about ITU scene.

May be it would be possible to have an option to switch envelopes mode X/Y or Angle/Distance... Of cource, it need with translate an early made automation.

For now you can draw it manually. It isn't complicate. Because circle is sine envelope on x/y. LFO generator can help you. Also there is "slow start/end" envelope point shape.
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Old 05-10-2021, 11:45 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
It isn't clear, agreed, that the angle envelope is Diffusion rotation envelope. Has sense only for diffusion with bias.
It's very optional feature, I think.
Ahh, I see. That explains a lot lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
Alas, it's refers to old talks, when ReasurroundPan was in the devs mind only.
I can't imagine the case you need perfect circle very often. And most of surround systems can't reproduce exact circle as well. It can be close, but only in the sweetspot.
I'm using this with virtual surround, where the listener is virtually at the exact same distance to all speakers, placed at 30, 90 and 135 degrees left and right (+ 0 deg center ofc). So I'm just trying to make a template to test different virtual surround effects on the same exact 7.1 mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
BUT! I really think, that envelopes angle + distance from center are better then envelopes x/y.
Yes, it's more complicate in math view, and for controllers needs x/y translator.
Also there is ambiguity for useful in both ITU and Theatrical setup. Angle is more about ITU scene.

May be it would be possible to have an option to switch envelopes mode X/Y or Angle/Distance... Of cource, it need with translate an early made automation.
Agree 100%, angle + distance would be perfect for panning.
Now that you mention it, do you know what's the standard setup for 5.1/7.1 games? Like I mentioned, I'm using a slight variation of 7.1 ITU (with side speakers at 90 degs cuz that's what some virtual surround effects use and I know at least one major game uses it http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/23687...df#section.164).
Wonder if there's a way to calculate the actual speaker angles used by games in practice by detecting the variation in volume of a sound being panned in a circle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
For now you can draw it manually. It isn't complicate. Because circle is sine envelope on x/y. LFO generator can help you. Also there is "slow start/end" envelope point shape.
I tried manually adding the keyframes but the interpolation wasn't quite right with any of the point shapes, even bezier (at best, I ended up with a rounded diamond shape) and customizing the tension could've worked but I didn't know the exact values for a perfect circle, but this LFO generator you speak of might be just what I needed, I'll give it a shot!
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Old 05-15-2021, 04:18 AM   #32
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circle is sine envelope on x/y. LFO generator can help you. Also there is "slow start/end" envelope point shape.
Again thanks for the tip! I managed to use LFO sines to generate what I think should be a perfect 10 second clockwise circle pan template. https://i.imgur.com/5rIhOFg.mp4
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