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Old 12-21-2017, 07:58 AM   #1
XoechZ
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Default As seen on ReaperTV - problem with -18dB levels!

Hello!

On the ReaperTV YouTube channel I have seen a video about levles when starting a mix. In the video the guy suggests to bring all the levels down to -18dB before starting a mix. Also input levels for instruments should be at -18dB when recording for headroom and because most plugins "expect" that level and work best this way.

Ok, I have no problem to level my drums (BFD3) to -18dB, I have also no problem with other VST instruments.

But I have two big problems with recording guitar and ampsims!

First, when I level the input of my preamp to -18dB, most ampsims like Mercuriall Spark or Amplitube 4 sound thin and have low drive and sustain. So I think ampsims are made for higher input levels.

Second, when I want to level the output of an ampsim to -18dB (peak), I have to trim the output volume all the way down (almost zero) and then it still happens that the level is higher (depending on the sound and the dynamics of my playing).

So my question is:

For all of you out there who know that ReaperTV suggestion of "everything to -18dB", how do you do it? Especially with ampsims?

Thanks in advance for all your input!
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Old 12-21-2017, 08:01 AM   #2
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First, when I level the input of my preamp to -18dB, most ampsims like Mercuriall Spark or Amplitube 4 sound thin and have low drive and sustain. So I think ampsims are made for higher input levels.
It's -18 dbFS RMS however.........

If this were are real amp, you'd just turn knobs and adjust stuff until it sounds like you want it to sound.

DO THAT!
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Old 12-21-2017, 05:35 PM   #3
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Thanks for the answer, but....

I have no idea of all those technical terms and definitions. All I can see in the video is that he brings down the levels of all his tracks so that the peaks in the Reaper track meter are just below -18.

Code:
DO THAT!
... means what? Turn down all the knobs of the ampsim to get a signal that peaks about -18db but is very weak and soft and cheap?

I mean, when I raise the input to about -6dB on my preamp and keep the output just below clipping, I get an awesome, rich and full sound. This seems to be impossible with everything (in and out) about -18.
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Old 12-21-2017, 05:37 PM   #4
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I mean, when I raise the input to about -6dB on my preamp and keep the output just below clipping, I get an awesome, rich and full sound. This seems to be impossible with everything (in and out) about -18.
Right, you already have the sound you like so....

I'm saying forget that video, it isn't giving you anything magical at all if you already have the sound you like.

You mentioned you don't understand the technical mumbo jumbo which is just fine but that also means there is no need to try to explain where -18 comes from and the myriad of situations (like this one) where it is irrelevant and not needed, when you already have the sound you want.
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Old 12-21-2017, 05:46 PM   #5
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I'm saying forget that video, it isn't giving you anything magical at all - as you just noticed it's giving you the opposite of what you want.
That makes perfect sense to me :-)

Thank you very much!!!
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Old 12-21-2017, 05:50 PM   #6
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That makes perfect sense to me :-)

Thank you very much!!!
Jam on my friend!

Side note: The fact that you are "peaking" around -6, means you are likely already in the right range the video is explaining - I suppose the quickest way to say it is they mean -18 "average" and you are setting -18 "peak" which would likely be too low.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:45 PM   #7
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I mean, when I raise the input to about -6dB on my preamp and keep the output just below clipping, I get an awesome, rich and full sound. This seems to be impossible with everything (in and out) about -18.
What I do when I'm recording something that needs to be hotter for various reasons, amp sims being one, vocals another, etc., I just create a bus track for each of them where I can put FX or adjust the levels to fit better in the earphones.

For an amp sims I turn the fader of the input track up until it hits the amp sim on the bus track to where it sounds good. That way I don't have to worry about the recording level being too hot. If more gain is needed there are way to do that too.

EDIT: I should probably say that I'm not dissing anything Karbo is saying, every thing he says is correct, this is just something extra, just some easy adjustments to keep everybody happy with what they hear while recording.

Last edited by Tod; 12-21-2017 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:52 AM   #8
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FWIW...
My approach...
When you take yer plank and plug it in to a real amp, the amp is taking a piss weak electrical signal and boosting it and converting it in to an audible noise.
If I were to place a mic in front and record it, I'd be aiming for ~ -18dBFS RMS recording.
I aim for the same level with a DI signal.
The way I look at 'amp sims' is they are NOT 'amplifier' simulators. They are 'guitar rig in an optimised position within a professional studio SOUND' simulators... at least the commercial 'name' ones are. The 'they don't sound like the real thing' thing... well, how could they? When was the last time you saw a 'room' option labelled 'your pokey spare room'?
When it comes to what I feed in and out, I use the same approach as any other plugin... because, afterall, it's a plugin, NOT an amplifier.
I aim for ~ -18 going in, - 18 coming out, and do ALL 'virtual guitar' style adjustments within the plugin with a 'what would I do in the real world' approach.
For example, if the amp sounds flat because the input's weak, in a real world scenario, I might throw an overdrive/boost pedal in front of the amp... do that 'in the plugin' either by turning the input on the plugin up (bottom left corner in AT4) or adding a virtual pedal.
Don't forget, you've got cab, mic, room and mixer sims going on in there, too, all with adjustable levels.
In my experience, a hot DI signal going into an 'amp sim' plugin usually results in a harsh, fizzy sound.
Point is, I use 'em for sound shaping, NOT signal amplifying.

If what you do works for you, though, that's groovy.
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Old 12-22-2017, 05:40 AM   #9
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If what you do works for you, though, that's groovy.
He should! Signals going into real amps vary just as much and people just turn the knobs until it sounds right, that idea doesn't suddenly break down because it's a DAW/SIM. I no longer really buy that the SIM doesn't sound like an amp thing - I'll demonstrate what I mean by that in the near future since I use both all the time.

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Old 12-23-2017, 05:40 PM   #10
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Ok, I have found a quick and dirty solution for my issue.

If I have a great guitar tone that I like, but it overpowers my ohter instruments, I can simply use a trim/level plugin after the ampsim to lower the level to the desired value. Hehehe.

Thanks for all your input.
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