Record arming speed in live performance

[AndrewGl]

Hello,

I defined two tracks, checked the "Automatic record-arm when track selected" option for them, and assigned computer keyboard buttons "1" and "2" for track triggering.

Everything works OK but the triggering speed: When I play something by right hand and trigger tracks by left hand, the new track is active only after half-second or more. What I play during this half-second is missed.

Is it possible to re-arm tracks faster, or maybe to delay un-arming of the old track until the new track is really active for MIDI controller input?

Track details:
Track 1 is defined with UVI Workstation (Ravenscroft 275),
Track 2 is defined with IK Multimedia Sintronik (FM Tubular Bell Light).

Thanks...

[ashcat_lt]

Maybe somebody else has a better idea but I think just stop doing that. Record both tracks all the time but automate something else to stop it getting to whatever VSTi it's triggering. You'd probably want to write that automation while recording so that it plays back properly.

[serr]

I'd say that getting a surprise new track recording at a moments notice for a recording already in progress and having that moment only be half a second is pretty darn good! You didn't have to stop the recording already in progress to add the new track like you would be forced to in every other DAW app made. That right there is worth a lot. Then you got to include that nearly missed track and only had a half second at the very start of it to repair/edit after the fact. This is a Reaper success story IMHO.

[AndrewGl]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Maybe somebody else has a better idea but I think just stop doing that. Record both tracks all the time but automate something else to stop it getting to whatever VSTi it's triggering. You'd probably want to write that automation while recording so that it plays back properly.

Thanks for the good idea. The question is how to do this in a right way. When both tracks are armed, both VSTi-s are played.

I could assign input MIDI channel for track 1 as 1 and input MIDI channel for track 2 as 2. So, the question is how to trigger the MIDI keyboard output between channels 1/2 in real time by pressing a computer keyboard button, or maybe a pedal. The inherent channel of the MIDI keyboard is 1.

[cfillion]

SWS Live Configs can do this. Create an input track and let SWS Live Configs manage the sends from it to the VSTi tracks.

[mschnell]

I don't understand why you want to arm / unarm tracks.

I happily use LiveConfigs to mute / unmute tracks for patch selection when performing live.

In Reaper, mute can be configured to stop the track's plugins from using any CPU time. That is why I can have lots of tracks with lots of plugins in "standby" and can activate them by pushing a button.

A potential problem is that this results in not to be able to ever hear both the to-be-unarmed and the to-be-armed track at the same time, preventing "spillover" and cross-fading. In fact LiveConfigs introduces a small fade-out / fade-in gap to prevent a harsh crack.

That is why on request of "Pipe" I developed a set JSFXes and ReaScripts that works similar to LiveConfigs, but (while needing more effort for configuring the system and providing a lot less versatility) allows for smoothly switching between multiple tracks, providing "spillover" by doing an appropriately delayed mute to the now unused track.

See this thread for more details: -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=202857

-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by cfillion

Create an input track and let SWS Live Configs manage the sends from it to the VSTi tracks.

Due to the incomplete documentation, I never understand the concept of "Input Track" in LiveConfigs.

Can you give a complete definition of this, so that I can update the enhanced documentation I id for LiveConfigs ?

Thanks,
-Michael

[cfillion]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Can you give a complete definition of this, so that I can update the enhanced documentation I id for LiveConfigs ?

I don't know much either (I use my own script instead of Live Configs). I did this when I tested before posting my answer above:

1) Created three tracks 2) Set the first as input in Live Configs. 3) Assigned the other two in different rows

It automatically created sends from the input track to the others and muted the send on the inactive row's track. The online help (in the right click context menu of the top area) seems helpful: http://www.sws-extension.org/downloa...iveConfigs.pdf.

[mschnell]

Thanks !
I'll try it out and update the docs (which is an upgrade to that that is available as online help).

-Michael

[AndrewGl]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Due to the incomplete documentation, I never understand the concept of "Input Track" in LiveConfigs.

Can you give a complete definition of this, so that I can update the enhanced documentation I id for LiveConfigs ?

Thanks,
-Michael

Michael, it would be great!

Will it be too daring if I ask you to showcase cfillion's idea in the doc as the example - including all menu clicks and text-box filling details?

LiveConfigs seems to be a powerful tool, but to tell you the truth, figuring out what it is by reading current docs is a difficult task, at least for me. The showcase would help to better understand LiveConfigs for many users who wish to control two or more VSTi-s simultaneously in a live performance.

I suggest to describe this as follows:

Create 3 tracks:
Track1: Input track (root of the tree),
Track2: Piano track (row track),
Track3: Violin track (row track).

Row tracks should be linked/unlinked to the MIDI controller by pressing computer keyboard button P (for piano) and V (for violin).

An interesting moment here is the usage of sustain pedal. I analyzed some multi-instrument DPs by Roland, Yamaha and Kawai. They allow to press a violin note, sustain it by pedal, then activate piano and play an unconstrained piano part which co-sounds with the sustained violin note. However, when playing the piano part, the user may wish to stop the sustained violin note (release the pedal for violin only).

Here is the difficulty and the room for elegant solution. Since current MIDI controller assignment is piano, we cannot send Pedal Off message to violin track by using the pedal. The solution would be assigning a special pedal or computer keyboard button (e.g. Esc), which works as follows: "Send Release Pedal message to all tracks but that which currently is connected to the MIDI controller".

This solution would make unnecessary the crossfaders, which may unnaturally affect the VSTi functionality.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by AndrewGl

figuring out what it is by reading current docs is a difficult task, at least for me.

Did you see the updated version -> http://www.bschnell.de/LiveConfigs_1.pdf ?

Regarding your sustain pedal example. I prefer using two keyboards, each with a sustain pedal.

-Michael

[AndrewGl]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Did you see the updated version -> http://www.bschnell.de/LiveConfigs_1.pdf ?

Regarding your sustain pedal example. I prefer using two keyboards, each with a sustain pedal.

-Michael

The updated version v2.6.0 contains a link to the old software version 2.4.0. This is not an easily readable document. It is based on many undefined terms and does not have detailed showcase examples that can be applied as a tutorial.

I prefer using (and use) two keyboards too, but there are situations when one has to play several voices using a single MIDI controller. In hardware-DP world this is a basic requirement. There are several well thought-off DP interfaces for that. I tried to implement such interface in Reaper and failed. Probably I need to go to Ableton Live (not sure)...

Andrew

[mschnell]

I understand that Ableton is good for stuff like Loops (an issue I am not interested in at all, but of course a valid Live performance task).

Regarding patch management, this is not something that inherently of interest for DAW creators, while here are dedicated software products for such tasks (like the (discontinued) Forte, which I did check out some years ago). Hence when using a DAW you need to do this by scripts and/or plugins/extensions, and here IMHO is the most versatile DAW of all. Moreover regarding stability and CPU efficiency, Reaper is very hard to beat. (And regarding the Sustain pedal, I am rather sure that - if the algorithm is clearly defined - this can be done by scripts in Reaper.)

-Michael

[AndrewGl]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I understand that Ableton is good for stuff like Loops (an issue I am not interested in at all, but of course a valid Live performance task).

Regarding patch management, this is not something that inherently of interest for DAW creators, while here are dedicated software products for such tasks (like the (discontinued) Forte, which I did check out some years ago). Hence when using a DAW you need to do this by scripts and/or plugins/extensions, and here IMHO is the most versatile DAW of all. Moreover regarding stability and CPU efficiency, Reaper is very hard to beat. (And regarding the Sustain pedal, I am rather sure that - if the algorithm is clearly defined - this can be done by scripts in Reaper.)

-Michael

Thank you for pointing me to Reaper scripts Michael, I overlooked the importance of this feature!

Andrew

[mschnell]

I already pointed you here -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=202857 which is all about "Reaper scripts" and "JSFX" (aka realtime scripts).

To do my Live setup I did a ton fg JSFXes to support LiveConfigs to do the things I want it to.

T find out more about scripts and JSFXes you might want to visit the "JSFX and ReaScript Discussion" subforum.

-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by cfillion

I don't know much either (I use my own script instead of Live Configs).

Just to let you know.

I found that there is a [Mute] button in the "send" window of the routing setup of any track. (I had not been aware of this control up til now.)

Same is managed by the "input track" feature of LiveConfig.

Instead of (or additionally to) this "Muting the send audio stream", you can configure LiveConfig to "Mute the sending track via the normal Mute feature", by setting the appropriate option in the LiveConfigs Option menu. This allows (if Reaper is configured for this) to stop that track from using CPU when it is not activated. This is what I use (and in fact need to use ).

I'll update the extended Live Configs user guide appropriately. (Hopefully we one day will have a subforum for Reaper Live usage, and then I will thrive to push the extended user guide in some "official" location.)

-Michael

[AndrewGl]

In my experiments (by manual reconstruction of the events, not by real programming) Mute is unsuitable for live performance. It leads to abrupt stops of the sound. IMO, better to apply natural note decay and/or release pedal events where applicable, which activate specific sound cessation implemented in the VSTi in question.

[mschnell]

Exactly this is what has been extensively discussed in the thread initiated by "PipelineAudio" that has been mentioned before.

-Michael

[AndrewGl]

Yes, volume cross-fading is a possible approach to smooth track muting artifacts in patch change situations. Maybe this works well for guitar and its distortion effects.

I think, however, this is unsuitable for classical instruments. There is no such thing as volume cross-fading in live piano and in live orchestra. There can be only mutual crescendo/diminuendo and note attacks/decays, which is absolutely another thing. Similarly, violin portamento cannot be implemented by a gradual change of the main frequency. Such thing never sounds as a real portamento.

Cross-fading may have value in some mixing situations but not in a live performance. AFAIK, successful multi-instrument DPs never apply volume cross-fading for patch change. The user can only press/release notes, pedals, and occasionally change current MIDI controller -> VSTi assignments. The interface typically avoids sound artifacts only by this.

Andrew

[mschnell]

Of course if you need multiple instruments at the same time in a live situation, you need to provide the CPU power to run all of them, concurrently.

OTOH, I don't see how I should be able to control more that two instruments within a short period of time. I am very happy with LiveConfigs, that simply does a fade-out and then fade-in to avoid cracks when switching patches. to control two sounds I use two keyboards with independent patch selection.

-Michael

[AndrewGl]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Of course if you need multiple instruments at the same time in a live situation, you need to provide the CPU power to run all of them, concurrently.

OTOH, I don't see how I should be able to control more that two instruments within a short period of time. I am very happy with LiveConfigs, that simply does a fade-out and then fade-in to avoid cracks when switching patches. to control two sounds I use two keyboards with independent patch selection.

-Michael

1: Agree, this may require more than 2 processor cores.

2: Yamaha Motif MULTI/Seq mode provides a deeply thought-of interface for creating live co-sounding of more than 2 instrument patches from a set of 16 prepared patches (out of thousands available for Yamaha S90XF or MOXF8). Motif supports the following scenario for a single keyboard:

a) You activate (connect to the MIDI controller by pressing one of 16 channel buttons) a Strings patch, play a chord, and sustain it by a pedal;

b) While holding the pedal you activate a Piano patch, play anything using the keyboard and another sustain pedal, then, while holding both pedals, you activate Oboe patch;

c) You play some Oboe phrase and then, holding some Oboe note, you activate Clarinet patch and play something (using another hand or non-occupied fingers).

In this way you can easily get co-sounding of 4 patches. One may argue that this is a limited way of patch control. I will agree only partly. Steps (a,b,c) can be combined and recombined very quickly. You can make several such patch reassignments in one second. For me this a very inspiring way of combining many instruments, especially if some pre-defined arpeggios are simultaneously controlled using a second keyboard. Beside of this, Motif allows to modify the arpeggio patterns and tempos in real time using special buttons and wheel-style controllers.

What is important, everything is controlled by MIDI, preserving natural behavior of all patches. No cross-fading is necessary.