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Old 09-02-2019, 03:37 PM   #41
Thonex
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Originally Posted by heda View Post
Let's say the maximum delay of all tracks is -300ms. Then a script running in the background TI for example) could rewind 300ms before playing starts, mute the master, start playing for 300ms and then unmute the master while keeps playing. Would this work? I think so. If all delays are entered with Track Inspector, it would be easy to know which is the largest negative delay of all and be saved in TI data for quick access.
hI heda,

Yeah... this was the first thing I did (months ago)... see below:

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Thanks nappies,

Thanks for chiming in.

Yeah... I had written a script like that (first thing I did LOL), and then the "record" version of the script so I could hear the downbeats of MIDI (go figure LOL). The problem with the latter is it totally messes up Reapers MIDI merge item displays.. and you end up spending all day cleaning up you item's display. :O

Really, this should just be a MIDI feature that is handled natively by Reaper. Everything else (that I've found) is a workaround and ugly.
As things are with Reaper right now, there are too many negative drawbacks when it comes to recording and hearing MIDI at the same time as using these rewind workarounds. There are a lot of unwanted side effects.
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Old 09-02-2019, 05:34 PM   #42
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Let's say the maximum delay of all tracks is -300ms. Then a script running in the background TI for example) could rewind 300ms before playing starts, mute the master, start playing for 300ms and then unmute the master while keeps playing. Would this work? I think so. If all delays are entered with Track Inspector, it would be easy to know which is the largest negative delay of all and be saved in TI data for quick access.
There are unfortunately a lot of issues that come up with this. If you use retrospective record for midi then all your midi items are going to be written starting at -300ms or whatever the amount is before the bar. It would be a mess to clean this up. Also, depending on what the largest delay amount is, you might get an extra metronome click that plays before the downbeat if you are in a 6/8 or 7/8 meter, etc. And a lot of synths won't trigger correctly if the playhead is not starting on a beat.

I'm not sure if it's possible, but I think Thonex's idea is a really good one. Which is do not delay anything at the playback start UNTIL the negative offset amount has passed. So if we are using -100ms as the track delay, the delay would not activate until a duration of 100ms has passed from the playback start. If you were able to manage that with Track Inspector on a per track basis then we might be on to something.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
That does not help in any way when you press play at any point in the project. Or when you press record and try to hear back MIDI at the initial play position.
This is exactly what I meant to say.

The negative track- (or whatever) delay improvement is not an appropriate tool to solve this problem, I understand that "Midi event chasing" is necessary here. I am not expert enough on this to see how (and how "easy" this could be implemented. But in some menu in reaper I found that "Midi Chasing" is performed on CC messages but not on note-on messages. So this kind of chasing indeed does not help either.
-Michael

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Old 09-02-2019, 10:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
As things are with Reaper right now, there are too many negative drawbacks when it comes to recording and hearing MIDI at the same time as using these rewind workarounds. There are a lot of unwanted side effects.
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
I agree. This functionality is way too complex as that it could be implemented by a script.
I suppose it's not possible to do this decently in a script.
Actually Reaper "natively" has been born as an audio sequencer (and a perfect audio infrastructure management tool), while Cubase had been born as a Midi sequencer. So it's "natural" to see shortcomings at appropriate areas.
-Michael

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Old 09-02-2019, 11:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Thonex's idea is a really good one.
This is exactly how Midi chasing (of Note on/off messages) would work. When starting playback, issue appropriate Midi events found before the starting point in high speed with output muted, and when reaching the starting point go to normal speed.

This in fact might work. But in fact it has close to nothing to do with negative delay but should improve starting play at a random point in the project in the same manner in other cases, too.

-Michael

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Old 09-03-2019, 09:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I suppose it's not possible to do this decently in a script.
Exactly! And THAT is why we have this Feature Request.


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Actually Reaper "natively" has been born as an audio sequencer (and a perfect audio infrastructure management tool), while Cubase had been born as a Midi sequencer. So it's "natural" to see shortcomings at appropriate areas.
-Michael
Pro Tools was audio only also. And yet here it is in Pro Tools: Choose Event > MIDI Track Offsets, or use MIDI Real-Time Properties.

Let's not try to find excuses for why it doesn't work and instead try to find a native solution. My guess is if Justin saw this thread, he might say something like... "oh... I have an idea... let's try XYZ...". If every other major DAW offers this capability, then it's probably not such a huge deal to incorporate as a new feature.

Let's focus on solutions.
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Old 09-03-2019, 01:42 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
it's probably not such a huge deal to incorporate as a new feature. Let's focus on solutions.
In fact I don't see how exactly (technically) such a "solution" is supposed to work.

Even if there is no negative Midi delay at all, starting play at some point within the project will provide the desired Midi notes (located "at" that point) if the note on events are shortly after the cursor and not provide them if the note on events are shortly before the cursor.
Supposedly this is a decent issue for a certain kind of work flow.
Imposing a negative delay only makes the problem more obvious. But the conclusion that the handling of the negative delay is flawed is not correct.

-Michael
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Old 09-03-2019, 02:31 PM   #48
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In fact I don't see how exactly (technically) such a "solution" is supposed to work.

Even if there is no negative Midi delay at all, starting play at some point within the project will provide the desired Midi notes (located "at" that point) if the note on events are shortly after the cursor and not provide them if the note on events are shortly before the cursor.
Supposedly this is a decent issue for a certain kind of work flow.
Imposing a negative delay only makes the problem more obvious. But the conclusion that the handling of the negative delay is flawed is not correct.

-Michael
Let's get Cockos' opinion on the matter instead of guessing.
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Old 09-03-2019, 02:35 PM   #49
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In fact I don't see how exactly (technically) such a "solution" is supposed to work.
Then please stay out of the discussion. You aren't helping.

If you do not need this particular feature request, great. Move on. Some of us do.
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:38 PM   #50
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Some of us do.
Certainly. I did acknowledge this several times.

To get this through it would be helpful to get the technical terms correct. Meaning not requesting a "Native Negative MIDI Delay Per Track" (which in fact is already in place e.g. by "+/- delay", but does not solve the issue the OP seemingly requested a solution for), but requesting an option to "have PDC trigger Note on/off Midi event chasing".

-Michael

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Old 09-03-2019, 11:04 PM   #51
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Certainly. I did acknowledge this several times.

To get this through it would be helpful to get the technical terms correct. Meaning not requesting a "Native Negative MIDI Delay Per Track" (which in fact is already in place e.g. by "+/- delay"),
-Michael
No! It's not native. It's a "+/- delay" JS plugin that wasn't really designed for that... but it was modified to get close. I'm referring to what other DAWs call it: A MIDI delay at the track level... that allows negative input... and plays notes at the downbeat... WITHOUT all the bad side effects.
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:34 PM   #52
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Right. It (now) is designed to provide (also) negative (also) Midi delay per track. But it does not solve the issue you as the the OP seemingly need a solution for. Hence the original feature request is perfectly viable, but the original thread title technically is completely misleading.

I imagine Justin skimming the "Feature Request" forum and with this title he might think "This already is possible, so why bother", but with a title in fact describing the problem for the affected users, he might think "This might be a viable shortcoming of Reaper's, so lets take a look".

(So I in fact take your answer for a "Yes" )

-Michael

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Old 09-04-2019, 12:22 AM   #53
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Perhaps if one simply referred to the original feature request in the very first post, which perfectly summed up the issue, one would not be confused
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Old 09-04-2019, 01:57 AM   #54
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As I in fact am not "natively" interested in Midi chasing issues (even though of course the technical aspects trigger some curiosity), I would not even have read the first post, if I would not have been utterly misled by the Thread title .

-Michael (not knowing of me taking part in the discussion is to be appreciated or depreciated)
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Old 09-04-2019, 08:07 AM   #55
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As I in fact am not "natively" interested in Midi chasing issues (even though of course the technical aspects trigger some curiosity), I would not even have read the first post, if I would not have been utterly misled by the Thread title .

-Michael (not knowing of me taking part in the discussion is to be appreciated or depreciated)

Thread title: Native Negative MIDI Delay Per Track

LOL... I think you are the only one in this thread that feels "utterly misled" by the thread title. Not sure how I could have worded it more clearly LOL. If it's a language thing and you're really trying to help, that I can understand, but otherwise I sort of feel you should start your own website: mschnellisalwaysright.com
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Old 09-04-2019, 08:13 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
As I in fact am not "natively" interested in Midi chasing issues (even though of course the technical aspects trigger some curiosity), I would not even have read the first post, if I would not have been utterly misled by the Thread title .

-Michael (not knowing of me taking part in the discussion is to be appreciated or depreciated)
After 19 posts on a two page thread of how you are not interested and don't see a solution I think we can safely assume the latter.

Best of luck in your own feature requests. I'll try to limit myself to less than 19 posts if I disagree with them.
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Old 09-04-2019, 08:33 AM   #57
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I actually agree that the title may not properly convey the problem and solution.

What about something like "MIDI chasing to allow negative delays"? If things behaved correctly, using an effect to add the delay would be a pretty minor thing, so specifying what the FR needs to achieve seems more clear and less like "I need this specific implementation".
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Old 09-04-2019, 09:33 AM   #58
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I actually agree that the title may not properly convey the problem and solution.

What about something like "MIDI chasing to allow negative delays"? If things behaved correctly, using an effect to add the delay would be a pretty minor thing, so specifying what the FR needs to achieve seems more clear and less like "I need this specific implementation".
I'm fine with that. Except that it has to be at the track level. It needs to be per track and variable per track (if needed). So maybe "MIDI chasing to allow negative delays per track".

In that case I'd open an new FR and start clean. Too much static in this thread.

Thanks Loka!
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Old 09-04-2019, 09:38 AM   #59
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In that case I'd open an new FR and start clean. Too much static in this thread.
Just edit the title and add a note about it in the OP. Less cluttery that way, and then the thread is still here for context.
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Old 09-04-2019, 09:54 AM   #60
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Just edit the title and add a note about it in the OP. Less cluttery that way, and then the thread is still here for context.
Done. Thanks.
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Old 09-04-2019, 10:27 AM   #61
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Everyone seems to be forgetting something VERY important here. Midi chasing does not solve the issue of recording. If any of the current delay plugins are used, midi items will not be recorded at the record start either. So even if midi chase was modified, you still couldn't record the start of any negative delayed midi.

Thus, Midi chase being modified still does not solve the underlying issue. In addition there is currently no way to delay midi other than the midi PDC hack. However, as Thonex pointed out in his video, you can't set a consistent negative delay with it. So even if midi chasing included midi located at the playhead even when delayed, it still does not solve the problem. Everyone here has agreed we can't solve this with PDC.

Since this thread has veered off wildly, here are the existing options and why they can't/don't work. I will omit the chase issues, since we've already discussed.

1) MIDI PDC - as discussed above, with this method we can't set a consistent negative delay value with it. See Thonex's bug video. The problem is also exacerbated because currently PDC in Reaper is adding a full current sample buffer for EACH plugin. So if you add a JSFX that adds a negative delay and your sample buffer is 256, you've added 256 samples of latency to your negative delay (and thus will have to re-calculate the negative delay amount). If you add another plugin on top of that, the latency only increases. Thus even with the issue of Reaper not chasing any negative delayed midi items at the playhead currently, PDC cannot work as a solution as currently implemented.

2) Audio delay via Time Adjustment JSFX or Similar - this method also affects live input/playing. So it means that while you are trying to play in a midi part, the resulting audio is delayed making playing anything in extremely difficult, especially for instruments that need to be delayed quite a bit. It also has the PDC issues above, where the negative delay amount will be affected by the number of instanciated plugins on the track and thus need to be recalculated.

3) Starting the playhead earlier and muting playback until the downbeat is reached - while this will chase correctly without any changes needed to the current implementation, all items will be written the specific delay amount before the actual midi. So instead of a midi item starting at bar 5, the midi item will be written slightly before the bar. This could be cleaned up with scripting, however the other major issue here is that many virtual instruments will not trigger correctly unless they are starting on the beat. Since in this case they wouldn't be, you would have certain instruments that are loops or arps, etc. that would play out of time because they are being triggered slightly before the beat.

So, we have proven two things conclusively. One, this cannot be solved by any of the current implementations above without side effects that are equally as bad as not having any negative midi delay. And two, even if midi chase were implemented to include items that have a negative delay, it cannot solve the issue of negative delay not recording negative delayed items at the record start until the delay amount has passed.

There are obviously many opinions about this and people who feel strongly and want to focus on one specific issue. This is not one specific issue. This is something that cannot be solved simply by midi chase, or PDC, or any existing solutions. Thus Thonex has made a VERY reasonable feature request asking for a native solution. I would ask everyone to respect his request. If someone does has a solution to ALL of the above via a script or plugin or combination of both, that would be wonderful too.
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Old 09-04-2019, 12:11 PM   #62
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There are obviously many opinions about this
Yep.
But we seem to agree that only the Reaper devs can propose and implement a decent solution, as multiple areas of media- and timing-management are involved.

Maybe we might hear a profound opinion from Justin some day soon.

-Michael

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Old 09-04-2019, 12:27 PM   #63
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Maybe we might hear a profound opinion from Justin some day soon.
Fingers crossed.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:08 AM   #64
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Squeaky wheel bump
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Old 09-08-2019, 04:40 PM   #65
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+1

Would be very useful to have this implemented natively and chasing correctly.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:01 AM   #66
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I just wanted to make some quick and dirty examples for how useful this delay function is for midi composers, in case it isn't clear for anyone.

Here are some very basic phrases, which are quantized to the grid. Each phrase is played twice with different libraries, first without a negative midi delay, then with a negative midi delay. As you can hear basically every sample library needs some sort of delay compensation for it to be right on the beat.

https://soundcloud.com/lucasorthmann...amples/s-DQHEc

Of course for all of these you could just move your midi to the left and have the same effect, but that's a ton of work and makes the piano roll extremely messy, while with a midi delay you set it up once and forget about it.

It also brings other incredibly useful advantages. For example, let's say you have a simple string ostinato and 4 different string libraries, each having a different attack. Now you want to test out your string ostinato with each of your 4 libraries, to look which one works best for this particular phrase/ostinato.
Since each library has a different attack, you normally would have to adjust the timing of your midi each time you move the midi to another track. With a set midi delay however, you can just move your ostinato to the other tracks without having to adjust anything and it will immediately be in time! It also makes layering different libraries a breeze.

BTW John Powell, one of the biggest movie composers of our time and absolute wizard in midi orchestration, swears on having midi delays on each track, too!
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:00 AM   #67
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It's not just John. That workflow is standard for film composers.

Another thing that is often overlooked is that we can't move notes off the grid because that midi is going to be sent to orchestrators and then copyists. If the notes aren't on the grid it is really going to screw those people up because they aren't going to be able to tell where everything really should be. Does this note start on the beat? Is it a grace note? Nothing would be clear and it would cause a disaster when the music ends up on the page and the musicians are recording it.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:23 AM   #68
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Amen! 😜
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:10 AM   #69
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ugh yes thank you for wording your requests so well, all of my annoyingly slow attacked string patches would be a lot more pleasant to use
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:38 PM   #70
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Just to let you know.

I did a supposedly proper test to find out the difference between negative audio and Midi delay.

I used two +/- delay plugin in three ways:
1) both disabled
2) both set to Delay - 100 mS, no Midi delay
3) both set to Delay - 100 mS, with Midi delay

I created a track with an sine (200 Hz)

I created a second track with only a small Item with that sine. I placed the +/-delay on that track.

I created a Midi track with CC7 hopping to 127 exactly at the start of the sine Item and back to zero at the end of the sine Item. I placed the +/-delay on that track.

I did another track with the CC Volume plugin set to a very short smoothing and routed the permanent sine to that track.

I created yet another track and I routed the output of the short sine track to channel two and the output of the Volume plugin track to channel 2.

I armed that last track and recorded the project.


I found:

1) no delay: I see a negative audio delay in the result vs the source of 230 mSek. This supposedly is introduced by Reaper due to the block size. The negative delay is 20 mSec less with the Midi generated data,

2) I see an additional 100 msec negative audio delay but no additional midi delay

3) I see an additional 100 mesc negative delay as well with audio and with Midi. The diffgerence between the channels not is only 5 mSec instead of 20 mSec without the +/- delay.

Conclusion:
The negative Audio and Midi delay functionality in reaper works perfectly (technically) .
(But this of course does not mean that it is decently usable for the purpose discussed here.)

-Michael

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Old 09-14-2019, 10:30 PM   #71
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Rater unrelated but maybe somebody might want to test:

For completeness, I updated the +/- delay to allow for positive Midi delay.

-Michael
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:03 AM   #72
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Rater unrelated but maybe somebody might want to test:

For completeness, I updated the +/- delay to allow for positive Midi delay.

-Michael
HI Michael, I will try it out later this weekend. It is rather unrelated since we're talking about negative MIDI delays on this thread. Is this the same delay as the one I posted in the Bug Reports forum? If so I'd appreciate if we continued on that other thread:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=224649
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:51 AM   #73
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...somebody should check the latest prerelease.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:11 PM   #74
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...somebody should check the latest prerelease.


Thanks EvilDragon!!

Thanks REAPER Devs!! You guys constantly amaze me!!!

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=225194

So happy!
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Old 09-21-2019, 02:20 PM   #75
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I'll check out this video later and try the new feature, but can you tell me if this gets around the problem of pdc always delaying the first note and/or missing early/late notes when loop recording? Is this a better solution for that?
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Old 09-21-2019, 04:50 PM   #76
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Thanks Andrew, for the videos and explanations, I now have a much better understanding of all this.

I do though, have a question for you and everybody else here. Do most of you place the play cursor right on the start measure where the midi starts?
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Old 09-21-2019, 05:40 PM   #77
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1. I agree with the FR. much needed when working with orchestral libraries.

2. Don’t count your chickens before they hatch. I’m still waiting on the articulation mapper (I know schwa said version 6, etc.).
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Old 09-21-2019, 09:56 PM   #78
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Regarding the (lately changed) thread title of "[They Added It!!!] MIDI chasing to allow negative delays per track", I understand that they added a control to set positive/negative track delay for audio and Midi (i.e. the same as provided by the +/- delay plugin in a somewhat less convenient way) but (as of right now) no Midi chasing feature based on such setting yet (but still under discussion in the prerelease forum).

-Michael

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Old 09-22-2019, 12:25 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Regarding the (lately changed) thread title of "[They Added It!!!] MIDI chasing to allow negative delays per track", I understand that they added a control to set positive/negative track delay for audio and Midi (i.e. the same as provided by the +/- delay plugin in a somewhat less convenient way) but (as of right now) no Midi chasing feature based on such setting yet (but still under discussion in the prerelease forum).

-Michael
Yes - the "delay-control" has been added, but the "chasing" has not realized.

The big jump is the "delay-control" in every track, because until now every
serious composer had to insert the modificated "midi-time-adjustment" plugin
into almost every midi-track. From the next release on this won't be necessary
any more.

The chasing feature can easily be surmounted by starting the playback a
litte bit before a region or a cycle. IMO this is not a severe point,
because setting the edit cursor is an easy tactic - its only one mouse
click.
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Old 09-22-2019, 05:25 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Regarding the (lately changed) thread title of "[They Added It!!!] MIDI chasing to allow negative delays per track", I understand that they added a control to set positive/negative track delay for audio and Midi (i.e. the same as provided by the +/- delay plugin in a somewhat less convenient way) but (as of right now) no Midi chasing feature based on such setting yet (but still under discussion in the prerelease forum).

-Michael
_Stevie_ tried out the same experiment with Studio One... and it behaves like Cubase. He posted his findings on the pre-release thread. I also added a simple boolean example with pretend code to show how I believe they are achieving the result. Not so sure it's "chasing" as much as simply not changing the position of MIDI in certain cases...

Code:
Note_On = Note_Pos + MIDI_Delay -- in this case it's negative 300ms
if Note_On < Play_Cursor_START_Pos then
              Note_On = Play_Cur_START_Pos
end
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