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01-04-2018, 12:03 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cloud 37
Posts: 1,071
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Is Sonarworks really accurate?
So I've been thinking of "EQing my headphones" to get a flat output.
Looking at a couple curves of other peoples measurements (InnerFiedlity the Headphone Guru and Sonarworks the pro headphones calibrators; people who can definitely do this better than me.)
But there seems to be such a big discrepancy between the curves. Sonarworks claims to be accurate to 3dB with their general calibration curves; meaning that the headphones shouldn't vary more than 3dB from model to model.
Photoshoping the 2 pics to the same scale,
They look a little better, but looking at the similarities, only a little boost from 100Hz-200Hz, and a little dip from 300Hz-400Hz
Above 2k the charts seem to be more different than similar, so either
1 - Sonarworks is not very useful
2 - Innerfidelity has bad measurements.
Am I missing something?
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01-04-2018, 02:38 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
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I was initially skeptical of Sonarworks but I decided to bite the bullet and try the demo of the full suite last month during their sale.
I'm no stranger to calibration techniques and had previously done my own measurements and calibrations of my studio monitors and was well pleased with the results. It was a big step up from no processing. That's part of the reason I was reluctant to try Sonarworks. I figured it wouldn't really offer much over what I'd already accomplished.
I was wrong! Very wrong! After running the Sonarworks demo, I was quite simply shocked at how well it works. It was the same step above my own calibration as that calibration was over uncalibrated. I purchased the full Reference 4 Studio Edition within MINUTES of setting up the demo!
It is now an essential part of my monitoring chain.
As for the headphone calibration, I recently purchased a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro headphones and absolutely love them!
I noticed that there is a calibration setup for that model in Sonarworks so I decided to try it out.
At first, I didn't like it. The whole EQ curve seemed to tilt everything in the direction of more lows and less highs and I thought it sounded dull by comparison. However, I did some objective analysis and compared the Sonarworks calibration of the 1990s with the calibrated sound of my studio monitors and they are remarkably close. I decided to leave the Sonarworks calibration in my headphone monitoring chain and now I love what it does. It actually sounds very accurate and my mixes are translating well everywhere.
So, in summary, I'm a now a Sonarworks convert. It works extremely well.
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01-04-2018, 02:54 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 5,247
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Hi ReaDave, many thx for this valuable info !
I never heard of Sonarworks, now i am interested ..!
I checked out their website for this product:
https://store.sonarworks.com/collect...dphone-edition.
I use my Sennheiser HD650 headphones alot at home, to mix in Reaper.
Do you know how i can find out if this headphone is supported by Reference4 - Headphone Edition ?
Warm Regards !
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01-04-2018, 03:24 PM
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#4
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Too close to Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,554
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The Sonarworks Headphone EQ for my HD600s sounded phasey to me, I couldn't take it. I don't want my monitoring chain to blur focus.
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01-04-2018, 03:25 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 5,247
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Mmmm.. that sounds not good.. thx for the info !
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01-04-2018, 03:27 PM
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#6
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
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NP, something to pay attention to during the demo period anyway. What I heard doesn't seem to bother many.
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01-04-2018, 03:34 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 5,247
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- Good to know i can run first a demo version, so i can try it out.
- Ahum, but i consider myself as a good longstanding soundengineer with excellent hearing for detail, so i am assuming i would hear the same phasey/washy issue as you describe.
Let's find out.
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01-04-2018, 03:37 PM
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#8
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Posts: 3,554
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I'm curious to read your results.
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01-04-2018, 03:37 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 5,247
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I'll keep ya posted, for sure !
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01-04-2018, 04:05 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 5,247
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Ok, so installed the demo.
Put Reference 4 Headphones plugin in Reaper's Monitor Chain.
A volume drop of about 6db so i had to compensate that with a gain plugin to level match it as good as possible when doing AB test.
Honestly i did AB for a minute or so and can't hear that much of a difference ..
I don't really experience a phasey/washy sound when Reference 4 is enabled.
With the plugin enabled, the sound seems abit less "busy" , as if details come alittle bit more to the front.
Hard to tell really, maybe my Sennheiser headphone is quite natural/accurate by itself already ..
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01-04-2018, 05:42 PM
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#11
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Thanks for your report.
I must clarify though, when I say phasey, I don't mean phasing, so it's not like I heard any movement in the sound LOL. I just mean that the placement of instruments in the stereo field seemed a little less solid.
I forget if the software lets you choose between different EQ types, I seem to remember linear phase was used. I'll try again some day though.
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01-05-2018, 10:14 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cloud 37
Posts: 1,071
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The Senn 600s and 650s are supposed to be pretty accurate, so that could be it.
Also, there should be no phase issues places on the master track. Linear phase could add some pre-ring, but using it at minimum phase really shouldn't make any difference; it's just an EQ curve, right?
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01-06-2018, 03:46 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
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It is possible that if the response at the mix position is not compensated correctly for each channel that the image could end up smeared.
In my case though, Sonarworks fixed some minor imaging problems I had. My room is reasonably symmetrical but the roof is slightly lower on the right hand side. I also have different objects on each side of my mix position that slightly affect the response due to the very minor reflections they present.
One of the improvements Sonarworks made here was to compensate correctly for those differences. The resultant EQ curves are actually slightly different between channels which is exactly what I'd expect.
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01-06-2018, 07:29 AM
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#14
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. PC
The Senn 600s and 650s are supposed to be pretty accurate, so that could be it.
Also, there should be no phase issues places on the master track. Linear phase could add some pre-ring, but using it at minimum phase really shouldn't make any difference; it's just an EQ curve, right?
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Well, any EQ will change phase somehow, that's why you might use say a Baxendall in one place and a linear phase somewhere else.
If I had used the app on speakers rather than headphones maybe I wouldn't be able to hear the diff.
Also the most important thing is mix translation and that I did not test, whereas I'm sure Dave has.
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01-06-2018, 09:02 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cloud 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave
It is possible that if the response at the mix position is not compensated correctly for each channel that the image could end up smeared.
In my case though, Sonarworks fixed some minor imaging problems I had. My room is reasonably symmetrical but the roof is slightly lower on the right hand side. I also have different objects on each side of my mix position that slightly affect the response due to the very minor reflections they present.
One of the improvements Sonarworks made here was to compensate correctly for those differences. The resultant EQ curves are actually slightly different between channels which is exactly what I'd expect.
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Oh, I didn't realize Sonarworks processed each channel separate. Is that true of the headphone plugin as well?
In this case linear phase I guess would be the best option. I would do a 'with' and 'without' Sonarworks monitor.
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01-06-2018, 09:44 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 444
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I've been using reference 3 (and now 4) for about a year now. I did notice what I think is a bit of crossfeed, which is where I think the reduction in width is coming from. This would be normal for listening on speakers, so I don't view it as a bad thing.
Listening in Mono is where you can really hear the difference. My Beyerdynamic cans have a horrible boost at 10khz. I can't listen to them for very long now without calibration enabled since I've noticed that boost.
The calibration for headphones won't be 100% accurate, as each set of headphones (Even of the same make) can be slightly different due to slight manufacturing inconsistencies. Plus there seems to be a breaking-in period for speakers and headphones, so response curves will change somewhat over time. I'm not sure if any of that is enough to worry about or not. I find the stock curves "good enough" when combined with some good cans as well as a calibrated speaker system in a calibrated room for reference.
I use reference in linear phase mode to avoid any phase problems, and I also use the 'avoid clipping' option since the plugin may be boosting some frequency ranges quite a bit in order to achieve a flat response (or a flatter response as the case may be). When A/Bing, I just turn off calibration from within the plugin, and the signal is allowed to pass through uncalibrated.
If you want to do a truer bypass, try using something like AB_LM so the before and after are precisely the same volume.
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01-06-2018, 09:51 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 444
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To split the hairs a little more, to achieve a truly "flat" response you would also need to know the response curve of your ears. So ... imho there are no attainable absolutes here except for:
- take care of your ears by not listening for long periods at decibels SPL above 85. This includes on speakers or cans.
- Find the sweet spot between what you've got now and significantly improved.
- Chasing perfection is a fool's errand. Keep building on what you've got, and keep moving forward. Eventually you'll look back and realize you've come a really long way!
- Physics always wins. Lack of knowledge about the physics of sound is a barrier to progress.
Most headphones at max volume have an SPL rating of over 110dB. This will begin to kill your ears ... in minutes! I did some testing on my macbook and found that at max volume, my sony headphones pump out 117DbSPL. That gives me about 30 seconds before damage occurs to my hearing. Keeping my Macbook volume at 1 'tick' below half way is the sweet spot for longer term listening (even then, it only gives me 2 hours max per day before damage sets in).
Continuous exposures at and above 85dB SPL are considered hazardous by the CDC. And for every 3db SPL of change, that time gets either cut in half or doubled. So at 88dB, you get 4hours. At 91dB, you get 2 hours. at 94dB, 1 hr etc before damage can occur. Running most headphones even at 3/4 max volume will damage your hearing in less than 1 hour. Then that really screws up the search for "flat monitoring"
Last edited by RedStone; 01-06-2018 at 10:05 AM.
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01-06-2018, 01:39 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
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I should add that I'm also using Sonarworks in linear phase mode except for when playing VST instruments (when I need the lowest latency).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. PC
Oh, I didn't realize Sonarworks processed each channel separate. Is that true of the headphone plugin as well?
In this case linear phase I guess would be the best option. I would do a 'with' and 'without' Sonarworks monitor.
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Headphones should have the same EQ on both channels because they are not affected by the room. Speaker calibration does each speaker individually to improve channel balance and imaging due to room influence.
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01-06-2018, 01:45 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHughes
Also the most important thing is mix translation and that I did not test, whereas I'm sure Dave has.
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Absolutely. This is a game changer in that regard too for me. I'm actually listening to my DT1990s through Sonarworks right now as I type this.
I've been A/Bing monitors vs headphones with Sonarworks on both and they are VERY close here which is a very good thing.
I've also set up an Ambisonic headphone decode chain using Blue Ripple, ATK and Sonarworks and I can get a reasonable 3D sound field happening with headphones which I'm quite happy about.
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01-09-2018, 05:55 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave
I've also set up an Ambisonic headphone decode chain using Blue Ripple, ATK and Sonarworks and I can get a reasonable 3D sound field happening with headphones which I'm quite happy about.
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Are you referring to what you describe in your thread (in your signature)? ReaDave Headphone Monitoring FX Chain and Track Template
Or something in addition to that? Sounds interesting!
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01-09-2018, 06:18 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Padova
Posts: 1,626
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i'm trying the demo in these days too (as I just moved to a new house and i'm setting up my studio..building some bass trap and schroeder diffusor...take about this in another future topic if i will remember to take pics, it might be helpful for other people).
I'm impressed too about this software, and i'm wondering to buy it when the demo will be espired.
I make a very extreme test on my un-treated room, just the desk, some shells full of books nothing else...really extreme.
And, what the f**k?
I couldn't believe to my ears..of course nothing good to work with because the acoustic is too much bad right now, but i could work on a couple of minor jobs without that annoying boomy sound...if it was way better with this extreme situation, I really guess that once i'll be done with the treatment work it will be part of my monitoring chain for sure.
I didn't try with my MDR7506, i will let you know
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01-14-2018, 12:35 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericzang
Are you referring to what you describe in your thread (in your signature)? ReaDave Headphone Monitoring FX Chain and Track Template
Or something in addition to that? Sounds interesting!
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The version I am using which includes Sonarworks and Blue Ripple is a variation on the templates in that topic.
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01-14-2018, 12:45 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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So I see some of you have used the demo to check your speakers and room out. Certainly they don't include a an acoustic measuring microphone with the demo, so how did you folks do this, with your own mics.
I've already got a good mic and don't want to purchase another.
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01-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
So I see some of you have used the demo to check your speakers and room out. Certainly they don't include a an acoustic measuring microphone with the demo, so how did you folks do this, with your own mics.
I've already got a good mic and don't want to purchase another.
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I purchased this without the measurement mic. You can use any decent measurement mic with it and it allows you to import calibration files for your existing mic.
I used my Behri ECM8000 with its calibration file and it worked really well.
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01-14-2018, 01:21 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3,649
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I bought a cheap used ECM8000 to demo it, then bought the Sonarworks mic with individual calibration after being impressed by the demo and sold the EMC for the same price I paid for it losing just a few quid on postage.
only an omnidirectional measurment mic will work.
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01-14-2018, 01:21 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave
I purchased this without the measurement mic. You can use any decent measurement mic with it and it allows you to import calibration files for your existing mic.
I used my Behri ECM8000 with its calibration file and it worked really well.
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Thanks Dave and Yeah, I've got the same mic. May I ask what you paid for Sonarworks?
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01-14-2018, 01:37 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
Thanks Dave and Yeah, I've got the same mic. May I ask what you paid for Sonarworks?
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I got it at the end of last year during their half price sale.
Regarding the ECM8000, that is one of Behringer's early successes. I've had mine for around fifteen years and it has proven itself to be a great reference mic many times over in that period. Honestly, that mic is just as good as many others costing significantly more, especially when used with its calibration file.
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01-14-2018, 01:41 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
Thanks Dave and Yeah, I've got the same mic. May I ask what you paid for Sonarworks?
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I forgot to mention that there are two reasons I didn't purchase their reference mic. One is that I doubt the results would be much different to the ECM and two is that if I purchased Sonarworks with the mic, I had no option to pay in US$. I could only pay in Euros and that made the overall price much higher. The Aussie to US dollar is MUCH better than Aussie dollar to Euros. I don't like the Euro very much!
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01-14-2018, 02:15 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
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Okay thanks Dave, I think I've seen the price for Sonarworks at about $250, maybe if I could get it for half I would be interested.
Yeah, I've had my ECM8000 for a little over a year, I've only used it twice, once to calibrate my control room and once just playing around experimenting with Reaper's monitor FX.
I checked all the various acoustic mics out there at the time I bought it and decided that regardless of the price it was plenty good enough.
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01-14-2018, 02:49 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
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They rejigged the way they sell it.
Now if you want speaker calibration you have to buy the complete bundle with headphones and systemwide.
Currently $211 once in your cart at AudioDeluxe.
If you hold out for a sale maybe it will be less but I suspect no more half price sales as the bundle is already cheaper than the individual software would have been.....always check a third party site as they usually honour the sale price and add their own extra discounts on top.
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01-14-2018, 04:04 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella645
They rejigged the way they sell it.
Now if you want speaker calibration you have to buy the complete bundle with headphones and systemwide.
Currently $211 once in your cart at AudioDeluxe.
If you hold out for a sale maybe it will be less but I suspect no more half price sales as the bundle is already cheaper than the individual software would have been.....always check a third party site as they usually honour the sale price and add their own extra discounts on top.
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Okay, thanks Stella, whats the deal with the demo, do they give you a certain amount of time, or is there another way they apply it.
I'm thinking I wouldn't want to demo it with out having enough time to do it in one shot. Or do they have a way of dealing with is so that you have plenty of time to see if it works?
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01-15-2018, 12:53 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
Okay, thanks Stella, whats the deal with the demo, do they give you a certain amount of time, or is there another way they apply it.
I'm thinking I wouldn't want to demo it with out having enough time to do it in one shot. Or do they have a way of dealing with is so that you have plenty of time to see if it works?
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Demo is 21 days. It took me about 21 minutes to decide to make the purchase though!!!
https://www.sonarworks.com/reference/downloads
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01-15-2018, 02:53 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
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Yup, love the ECM8000, had one for about 10 ears, might be the best thing Behringer makes
As far as using linear phase EQ for compensation in order to avoid phase problems, be careful.
You could actually be CAUSING phase problems by using a linear phase EQ.
A single loudspeaker, a single diaphragm headphone earpiece for instance, is a "minimum phase" device.
This has a rigorous engineering definition.
But what's really important is that as you correct a minimum phase device amplitude response, you ALSO correct the phase response, they are mathematically and sonically linked.
Minimum phase device has an evil twin called "excessive phase".
Excessive phase is commonly found in things like 2 way (or more) loudspeakers, rooms, etc.
Excessve phase has an electronic equivalent, an all pass filter.
Correcting the excessive phase component response is trickier.
As a VERY rough rule of thumb, in room acoustics the peaks tend to be minimum phase, the dips tend to be excessive phase.
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01-15-2018, 10:07 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave
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Okay, thanks again Dave, how did you get the profile for your ECM8000, my mic doesn't have a profile code, at least not one I can see?
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01-15-2018, 11:07 AM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3,649
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The ECM don't come with a calibration but there is some generic calibration data available from various sources online and you can make your own file by pasting this into a text file and removing one of the columns.
https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en...ibration-file-
Note I have seen someone who had their mic professionally calibrated say that the generic data was nothing like their data, so it may or may not be an improvement over using it without.
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01-15-2018, 11:35 AM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella645
The ECM don't come with a calibration but there is some generic calibration data available from various sources online and you can make your own file by pasting this into a text file and removing one of the columns.
https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en...ibration-file-
Note I have seen someone who had their mic professionally calibrated say that the generic data was nothing like their data, so it may or may not be an improvement over using it without.
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Thanks again Stella, but I'm a little confused. They say this:
Quote:
Open up this file with any text editor and remove anything that is not the values for Frequency Response and Magnitude.
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But there is no file? Heh heh, oh well, as you indicate, it might not matter.
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01-15-2018, 11:36 AM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 5,246
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The .cal file Behringer offers is for a first generation ECM8000. That's the one with the Panasonic WM61a clone capsule produced in the Philippines. There are at least four other OEM's who have produced this mic for Behringer.
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In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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01-15-2018, 12:33 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3,649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
Thanks again Stella, but I'm a little confused. They say this:
But there is no file? Heh heh, oh well, as you indicate, it might not matter.
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The file is at Behringer site...but yeah, I don't think you can necessarily assume it will make things any better. this uncertainty was why I ended up just buying the Sonarowrks mic which has been individually calibrated by them.
https://music-group.force.com/musick...libration-Data
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01-15-2018, 03:42 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella645
The file is at Behringer site...but yeah, I don't think you can necessarily assume it will make things any better. this uncertainty was why I ended up just buying the Sonarowrks mic which has been individually calibrated by them.
https://music-group.force.com/musick...libration-Data
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Okay thanks Stella, I created a text file that should work, it's based on the link you provided. If anybody else wants it you can DL it here.
https://stash.reaper.fm/32700/ECM%20...alibration.txt
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01-16-2018, 08:04 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano
The .cal file Behringer offers is for a first generation ECM8000. That's the one with the Panasonic WM61a clone capsule produced in the Philippines. There are at least four other OEM's who have produced this mic for Behringer.
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I didn't know they used capsules with the same specs as the WM61a. My ECM is one of the early production runs that the cal file was written for.
I have a bunch of WM61a capsules here which I'm using to build custom PZM's. Their response isn't the same as the ECM8000 file suggests. Perhaps the clones Behri used have a different response to the Panasonic capsules.
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