Old 12-25-2017, 09:06 AM   #1
RDBOIS
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Default Using stereo tools. Or not?

What do you use and how?

Talking about tools to create/enhance the stereo field.

The other day someone said to me: "Your mix is too mono". Ok, sure, but I had an electric guitar panned left at 75 and an acoustic guitar panned right at 75. On top of that I had the cymbals and toms panned. Not to mention the back vocals and some pads in pingpong left-right.

At the root of the matter stereo is about panning. Yes? But it seems like it's not enough. So I downloaded all sorts of plugins that create or enhance stereo. Haas, clever-delays, etc.

I did read the manuals and tips on forums, but I'm still puzzled. When I use these stereo plugins my mixes sound impressive in headphones, but don't translate well to monitors, especially mono-like environments. I'd be happy just panning, but seems like widening is also in the game.

I'm sure there are DOs and DON'Ts when it comes to creating a stereo field.

How do you do it?

What are your golden rules?

What about reverb (pan, widening...)?

Stereo tools on individual instruments or on the Master bus?

Thanks
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Old 12-25-2017, 09:28 AM   #2
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I'd recommend a mono-compatible plug-in that only affects the side signal (especially if used on the master).

A1StereoControl is free and you can lock in "fix Mid level" so it doesn't impact the mono channel
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Old 12-25-2017, 09:35 AM   #3
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Default - always check your sides and your mono.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
What do you use and how?
My humble (and free) suggestions
Use som mid/side-solo effect on the monitorfx - this one is my newest favourite for this:
http://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/ISOL8.html
- listen to the side on your own mix and some choice reference mixes. This one has tons of good features for referencing your mixes with others:

This is a great fx for adding stereo effect to guitars
http://www.voxengo.com/product/stereotouch/
- remember to check the whole mix in mono, so that you dont 'over do it' with the 'fake' stereo. A little goes a long way and (tom me) is totally necessary to get *that* sound I'm going for.



-W
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Old 12-25-2017, 10:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
What do you use and how?


The other day someone said to me: "Your mix is too mono". Ok, sure, but I had an electric guitar panned left at 75 and an acoustic guitar panned right at 75. On top of that I had the cymbals and toms panned. Not to mention the back vocals and some pads in pingpong left-right.
If something is supposed to be left or right, not panning it completely is "leaving width on the table" and no need to solve that with a widener when you can just pan it wider.

Quote:
At the root of the matter stereo is about panning. Yes? But it seems like it's not enough.
See above.

Quote:
I did read the manuals and tips on forums, but I'm still puzzled. When I use these stereo plugins my mixes sound impressive in headphones, but don't translate well to monitors, especially mono-like environments. I'd be happy just panning, but seems like widening is also in the game.

I'm sure there are DOs and DON'Ts when it comes to creating a stereo field.
I never use it on an entire mix unless it is something like a two-track stereo source such as band practice using two room mics or the same but mono and I want "something" more than mono.


Quote:
What about reverb (pan, widening...)?
See my very first comment about panning 100% - if that bothers you - that there will be zero in the opposing side, then use reverb in such a way to fix it, that way you don't lose width trying to satisfy worries about someone missing something if they don't have both signals etc.

I almost always pan LCR, not clinically pure LCR but mostly - IOW if it is an important track (say guitar instead of a shaker) it must go L, R or C. The trick is to use reverb/delay etc to carefully fill in the gaps and most people will never realize it is LCR and you'd be surprised at the very high number of mixes that actually are LCR but don't necessarily sound like it. A point to ponder...

When some sound source is to your right in the physical world, your right ear gets the direct sound + ambience, your left ear gets only reflections and ambience. Now do the same in a mix but pan that inwards 15% and now your right ear is getting 85% direct and your left ear is getting 15% direct. That's potentially irrational to your brain because in the real world your left year still isn't getting direct signal but in the mix it's getting two direct signals.

A better way might be to place ambience/reverb on the opposing side which sounds (to my ear) far more natural. I have a track template that allows this. Basically, if you send to the reverb track on 1/2, it's just a regular stereo reverb - however, if you send to channels 3/4, then wherever the instrument is in the stereo field the reverb comes out as a mirror image. Combining the two and you can achieve what I feel is a better representation. You get the instrument panned hard right, a bit of ambience hard right and more ambience over on the left which is from an illusionary perspective more like one would expect to hear.

I mentioned all this because that will get you more width with less need to feel like you should pan 75/25 instead of 0/100.


Quote:
Stereo tools on individual instruments or on the Master bus?
Personally, I hate what it does to full mixes - it sounds cool at first but I always end up removing it because it always sounds like a trick that could have been handled better (to my ears).
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by lachrimae View Post
I'd recommend a mono-compatible plug-in that only affects the side signal (especially if used on the master).

A1StereoControl is free and you can lock in "fix Mid level" so it doesn't impact the mono channel
I downloaded it. Thanks for the tip!

I wonder... How can something be wider than 100%? This plugin makes it up to 200%?!
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:13 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Winfield View Post
My humble (and free) suggestions
Use som mid/side-solo effect on the monitorfx - this one is my newest favourite for this:
http://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/ISOL8.html
- listen to the side on your own mix and some choice reference mixes. This one has tons of good features for referencing your mixes with others:

This is a great fx for adding stereo effect to guitars
http://www.voxengo.com/product/stereotouch/
- remember to check the whole mix in mono, so that you dont 'over do it' with the 'fake' stereo. A little goes a long way and (tom me) is totally necessary to get *that* sound I'm going for.
-W
Thanks.

What about mid/side effects? Something like this?: 1) compressing the low end of the MID more than the SIDE, 2) EQing MIDS differently (?), 3) what else?

I get the need to reference, but I can't seem to always find a song close to mine. If I do, then do I need to first gain stage them so that they are near equal in loudness (e.g. LUFS)?
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
A better way might be to place ambience/reverb on the opposing side which sounds (to my ear) far more natural. I have a track template that allows this. Basically, if you send to the reverb track on 1/2, it's just a regular stereo reverb - however, if you send to channels 3/4, then wherever the instrument is in the stereo field the reverb comes out as a mirror image. Combining the two and you can achieve what I feel is a better representation. You get the instrument panned hard right, a bit of ambience hard right and more ambience over on the left which is from an illusionary perspective more like one would expect to hear.

I mentioned all this because that will get you more width with less need to feel like you should pan 75/25 instead of 0/100.
I'd like to hear an audio example of this if you have one?
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:25 PM   #8
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I'd like to hear an audio example of this if you have one?
Sure, give me a bit.
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
If something is supposed to be left or right, not panning it completely is "leaving width on the table" and no need to solve that with a widener when you can just pan it wider.

I never use it on an entire mix unless it is something like a two-track stereo source such as band practice using two room mics or the same but mono and I want "something" more than mono.


See my very first comment about panning 100% - if that bothers you - that there will be zero in the opposing side, then use reverb in such a way to fix it, that way you don't lose width trying to satisfy worries about someone missing something if they don't have both signals etc.

I almost always pan LCR, not clinically pure LCR but mostly - IOW if it is an important track (say guitar instead of a shaker) it must go L, R or C. The trick is to use reverb/delay etc to carefully fill in the gaps... A point to ponder...

A better way might be to place ambience/reverb on the opposing side which sounds (to my ear) far more natural. I have a track template that allows this.

I mentioned all this because that will get you more width with less need to feel like you should pan 75/25 instead of 0/100.
I like the idea of going full 100% width pan and then fill the gaps with reverb or delay. I was doing the inverse; I was panning 25-50-75 and then panning reverb 100% (or in the same spot as the instrument). There is also a width slider on a track that goes from -100 to +100. That slider is at default set to +100. Do you ever play around with that? I think I may have tried to set it to zero on some instrument reverb once. I don't recall the impact.

I'll check out your template soonest. Thanks for sharing that!

I'm currently mixing a song and will test some of your strategies. I'm having a very hard time with this song; it's not sounding like what I'm imagining. It's like it wants to go somewhere on its own and I can't really prevent it?! I'll post the song up on the forum for comment once I'm done. I just need to add the bass track (somehow I felt it needed to be created last - I wanted it to sing and reply like back vocals, while grounding at the time. I suck at mixing. I really need to nail a workflow, because I'm currently all over the place, constantly experimenting, never knowing what is ruining what?! It suck to be mediocre at something (or maybe even sucking at it?!).
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:55 PM   #10
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Here's a quick demo. The two sends are 1/2 and 3/4. 1/2 is just a regular ole send, 3/4 is the mirror image, both are the same reverb it's just the send used, that dictates whether it is mirrored or not. I'm sort of playing with both of them so you can get an idea (I begin by adding 1/2, non-mirrored). Hopefully you can see/hear that you get more creative choice with placement in whatever space you are trying to create and IMHO helps with widening in general.

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Old 12-25-2017, 01:12 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
I get the need to reference, but I can't seem to always find a song close to mine. If I do, then do I need to first gain stage them so that they are near equal in loudness (e.g. LUFS)?

As for references - Find what you can that is the closets to what you need - perhaps only one section of a song i usable - use that.

All ways work with equal gain. Adjust the volume of the reference track by ear so it's comparable to you entire mix - this is often a 'per section' thing where the volume of the chorus can differ from that of the verse etc.


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What about mid/side effects? Something like this?: 1) compressing the low end of the MID more than the SIDE, 2) EQing MIDS differently (?), 3) what else?
When you hear the soloed side signal the above questions is good to ask you self - but first *listen* to the side in the reference. If you hear a lack of sides do further pans / try the voxengo stereoplug I linked to above. If your guitars start sounding closer to the reference you know youre on the right track.

My point (and personal experience) is that this is something that you have to experience for yourself - the isol8 fx gives you some really good options to reference material in a analytical way.

-W
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Old 12-25-2017, 02:41 PM   #12
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Here's a quick demo. The two sends are 1/2 and 3/4. 1/2 is just a regular ole send, 3/4 is the mirror image, both are the same reverb it's just the send used, that dictates whether it is mirrored or not. I'm sort of playing with both of them so you can get an idea (I begin by adding 1/2, non-mirrored). Hopefully you can see/hear that you get more creative choice with placement in whatever space you are trying to create and IMHO helps with widening in general.
Interesting... is it the going through 3/4 that creates the panning as well as the mirror? Wait, the panning is part of the mirror. What if you have 2 guitars panned hard left and hard right, how do you pan the mirror so it's not getting in the way of the opposite guitar?
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Old 12-25-2017, 02:51 PM   #13
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Interesting... is it the going through 3/4 that creates the panning as well as the mirror?
If you send the guitar to the reverb track on 3/4 then wherever you pan the guitar, the reverb comes out the opposite. So if guitar is panned at 10 o'clock, reverb is at 2 o'clock or 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. In my example the guitar itself is always panned hard left. Chances are if I pan a guitar far left or far right, it's probably going to live there the entire song; or I can at least treat it as such until something changes.


Quote:
What if you have 2 guitars panned hard left and hard right, how do you pan the mirror so it's not getting in the way of the opposite guitar?
That's actually how I'm using it. It may get in the way even less than having itself as the reverb on the same side. For example if the reverb from the far right guitar has some coming out on the far left where the far left guitar lives, that may not muddy up the sound as much as having the left guitar and its own reverb, dead on top of each other.

Another thing to consider is as-is and more so with 20-30 ms pre-delay on the verb, this creates some motion to the sound via the initial sound, followed by the reverb sort of splashing to the other side subtly. That doesn't need to be obvious to be effective. IOW little hints of motion in a mix, make it more interesting than being overly static and the listener doesn't really need to be concerned that this is occurring, they'll just think it sounds bigger and more exiting because it usually does.
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Old 12-25-2017, 07:14 PM   #14
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Here's a quick demo. The two sends are 1/2 and 3/4. 1/2 is just a regular ole send, 3/4 is the mirror image, both are the same reverb it's just the send used, that dictates whether it is mirrored or not. I'm sort of playing with both of them so you can get an idea (I begin by adding 1/2, non-mirrored). Hopefully you can see/hear that you get more creative choice with placement in whatever space you are trying to create and IMHO helps with widening in general.

Brilliant. Love it! Thanks
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Old 12-25-2017, 09:19 PM   #15
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If you send the guitar to the reverb track on 3/4 then wherever you pan the guitar, the reverb comes out the opposite. So if guitar is panned at 10 o'clock, reverb is at 2 o'clock or 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. In my example the guitar itself is always panned hard left. Chances are if I pan a guitar far left or far right, it's probably going to live there the entire song; or I can at least treat it as such until something changes.




That's actually how I'm using it. It may get in the way even less than having itself as the reverb on the same side. For example if the reverb from the far right guitar has some coming out on the far left where the far left guitar lives, that may not muddy up the sound as much as having the left guitar and its own reverb, dead on top of each other.

Another thing to consider is as-is and more so with 20-30 ms pre-delay on the verb, this creates some motion to the sound via the initial sound, followed by the reverb sort of splashing to the other side subtly. That doesn't need to be obvious to be effective. IOW little hints of motion in a mix, make it more interesting than being overly static and the listener doesn't really need to be concerned that this is occurring, they'll just think it sounds bigger and more exiting because it usually does.
That is very cool! I may have to experiment with this a bit... thanks for the in-depth explanation AND the example, Sir!
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