Windows 8 nightmare

[Anomaly]

I purchased license of windows 8 while it was released and on discount.

Only now I thought I would actually try it... Which obviously turned out to be a mistake.

Installation went ok. I've got a brand new SSD drive that I dedicated for it. Plugged my other hard disks out so that the new ssd was the only drive.
It was a clean install and activation appeared to go fine.

Now the last couple of days I have been banging my head into wall. I have probably encountered every possible problem that has ever associated with this OS. I don't want to bore you with the minor troubles, but there are couple of things I just can't get a grip.

Problem #1: I have been switching OS hard disks back and forth between Windows 8 and my old Windows 7. They are never plugged in at the same time. When I want to boot into W7 I plug out the W8 disk. And vise versa. But since plugging my data storage disk online, keeping it on all the time, I have experienced strange file system corruption symptoms.

When I boot into W7, it reports that my data hdd has a problem and chkdsk needs to be run. Ok, I found some info that there is a feature in W8 called "fast startup" that needs to be disabled on dual boot systems. After I disabled it, the W7 boot time chkdsk message seemed to go away. However the filesystem corruption has not gone away:
Randomly W8 reports that there is a problem with my data hdd and chkdsk needs to be run. That is usually after I have used my data hdd in W7. Apparently it finds some files that have problems. If I use my data hdd solely on W7 or W8, there doesn't seem to be a problem. Only when I use it with both systems. It seems to me like W8 ntfs is not 100% compatible with earlier versions of windows, as this never happened with W7 alone.
I also plugged my data disk out and tried another spare disk in it's place. I moved some files in W7 and then booted into W8. Then I run chkdsk and behold, it founds filesystem problem with that new hdd too. However this happened only once in my quick testing period. I doubt there is a physical fault in my hdd's. This behavior only started when installed W8.

Both systems have default microsoft sata drivers. Faulty sata cable seems also very unlikely...

Problem #2: Every now and then when I log in, Windows 8 "forgets" my desktop background image and turns it solid black color. I have read that there may be some problems with desktop wallpapers if windows is not activated. However, as I stated above, I have already activated it. I can set any wallpaper I like, but it randomly resets to black solid color.

I would highly appreciate some good ideas... anybody with similar problems?
Thanks

[karbomusic]

They are never plugged in at the same time. When I want to boot into W7 I plug out the W8 disk. And vise versa. But since plugging my data storage disk online, keeping it on all the time, I have experienced strange file system corruption symptoms.

If the filesystem is NTFS on the data drive which it should be, OS/User specific management and rights information is attached to each file. That would include user accounts etc. which even with the same names between OS's will still have different SIDs (unique IDs), thusly each OS will want to correct the problem when it sees meta data it doesn't know about and considers it corrupt since its own meta data was overwritten by the other OS when it did the exact same thing when it was booted.

Typically with NTFS you don't want two OS's accessing the same HDD. You could reformat and make it FAT32 which is multi-OS friendly (which is why removable drives are FAT32 btw) but me thinks you should try to stop switching the OS's out as soon as you can and stay with NTFS. You are actually treating it like a removable drive when it really isn't if you think about it, hence the issues.

[Anomaly]

Thanks karbomusic,

Your explanation makes lots of sense. But I wonder...
Before I started experiencing with W8, I have been using dualboot system with two W7 installations successfully for years. Apparently this meta data problem doesn't apply in this case? Only between W7 and W8?
Even XP & W7 were 100% ok with each other.

Also, I have been using ntfs formatted memory sticks & eSata hard disks 100% problem free with different systems.

Best regards

[Coachz]

I'm back on win7 and hope to never see win 8 again. I thought at $40 it was a steal. It was for them !

[musicbynumbers]

I have had this only just happen a few weeks ago with dual boot and windows 8. was just trying 8 out on the side and then I got your initial chkdsk problem. I'm now cautious about booting win 8 again.

Coachz, Do you document anywhere why your back on 7? I thought you were one of the happy early adopters but what went wrong?

I do intend to go to win 8 at some point to get the benefits but feel I might have to do my booting from within the bios and leave dual boot out of it

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Anomaly

Thanks karbomusic,

Your explanation makes lots of sense. But I wonder...
Before I started experiencing with W8, I have been using dualboot system with two W7 installations successfully for years. Apparently this meta data problem doesn't apply in this case? Only between W7 and W8?
Even XP & W7 were 100% ok with each other.

Also, I have been using ntfs formatted memory sticks & eSata hard disks 100% problem free with different systems.

Best regards

It could possibly be some other issue? Though I'm sure what I explained is there, I can't say it will necessarily report corruption to you as the user so that is a little bit of a guess. Like I said I'm sure the disparity between SIDs is there but not sure how Win8/Win7 handle it specifically. How old is the drive? I'd hate for it to actually be having its own issues and we don't realize it yet.

[Coachz]

for starters i didn't like the interface even after "learning" it. Windows explorer was constantly crashing despite multiple installs. I live in windows explorer so need reliable file management.

My latency was no better. I can do 128 buffer / 3.6ms in win7 and could do no better in win 8.

Also I mapped the Win key combos in Reaper to use and in Win8 they hostaged the keys so I could not use them in Win8. That was the last straw.

I'm getting tons of work done in Win7 and very happy.

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

I have had this only just happen a few weeks ago with dual boot and windows 8. was just trying 8 out on the side and then I got your initial chkdsk problem. I'm now cautious about booting win 8 again.

Coachz, Do you document anywhere why your back on 7? I thought you were one of the happy early adopters but what went wrong?

I do intend to go to win 8 at some point to get the benefits but feel I might have to do my booting from within the bios and leave dual boot out of it

[Anomaly]

Apart from the issues mentioned here, there is at least one thing that seem more positive over W7. That is DPC / interrupt to process latency.
My W7 hover between 100-200us range while W8 hovers between 0-50us without any tweaking. They say there should be no difference between W7 & W8, but for me there is. I've never managed to get this low latency with W7.

At least that part would suggest good asio performance... But I guess the rest is depending on audio interface/drivers.

[sostenuto]

Every system and install can be different so NO judgment here ....

OTOH, three Intel quad desktops running Windows 8 Pro 64-bit since released in late October and zero crashes running Reaper 64-bit. Also running Omnisphere, Trilian, StylusRMX, .... Jamstix3, Ivory II Italian Grand.
Two systems are recent SSD upgrades (128 & 240gb)... and working fine as well. Not saying I can define any specific gains (other than fast boot times), but systems are solid.

Puzzled over posted issues .......... Likely problem installs are running far more complex Reaper systems/plugs, functionality. Perhaps that hints at issues rather than the 'base' stability of Windows8. I'm surely one of the oddies who like Win8 changes and have no desire to return to Win7.

Hope your specific issues get identified and sorted ....

Tom B

[karbomusic]

Windows explorer was constantly crashing despite multiple installs. I live in windows explorer so need reliable file management.

I gave the likely reason in the other thread, actually two other threads iirc. However that's just proof that you'll be happier with W7 which is good, you're running well; that isn't going to be the case for a lot of other people though, different versions different needs, everybody happy. Its just important to know that explorer isn't degraded, just something hooked in causing it to crash.

[musicbynumbers]

Thanks everyone for the info here. That windows key stealing is quite bad for me! I use the windows key on my shuttle pro a lot for reaper actions and modifiers. Hopefully there's a way round this!

MY main reason is my multi touch screens plus SSD etc. I really liek the idea of a daw that loads in seconds and also I've found the interface to be quite good on touch screen but yes, with a mouse it's nasty

I think 8.1 is when I'll take the dive!

[Coachz]

I appear to be getting 3uS latency in Win7. My latency issues were from video drivers. I did a fresh install and turned updates OFF. Then made a drive image backup. Then i installed things one at a time looking for what was hosing me up. Right now I'm very very happy with the setup.

The MB is a GA-X58A-UD3R and the video is $19 NVIDIA GeForce 210 at 1920 x 1200, hard drives are sata in raid bios setting with no actual raid.

Also for people running sata drives, make sure your bios is not in the default IDE mode or you are losing speed. Install raid fix if you can and then reboot, change bios to raid and you're good. http://mike.geek-republic.com/software/raidfix/

[Coachz]

I agree. I just got to where i wanted to make music and get my hotkeys back. :-)

Originally Posted by karbomusic

I gave the likely reason in the other thread, actually two other threads iirc. However that's just proof that you'll be happier with W7 which is good, you're running well; that isn't going to be the case for a lot of other people though, different versions different needs, everybody happy. Its just important to know that explorer isn't degraded, just something hooked in causing it to crash.

[The Telenator]

First, I just wanted to wonder out loud why anyone with DPC latency UNDER 500us would be very concerned?


But to the real thread topic, Windows 8: with its new nickname of 'The OS that Nobody Wants,' I'm watching the gamers on this 7 vs. 8 issue. Seems to me, Microsoft just never listens to any of us in pro audio. I suspect that is because we are simply too small of a group, either that or my stronger belief that none of us stand up enough to MS and make our voices heard.

Meanwhile, you can be sure that MS hears the gamers loud and clear. Sure, their graphics needs far outstrip ours, but in other ways we have a lot in common. We both run demanding software. Gamers' audio needs are certainly not nil either.

I'm no gamer myself, but I've been following to them and their troubles since shortly after the release of Win7. Currently, throughout Gamedom, I'm hearing about Win8, subtly in most cases and significantly in others, of Win8 slowing down their software. It's pretty widespread and not just an odd reporting here and there. In regards to our audio, I constantly read mixed reports -- some bench tests showing slight improvements, others going the opposite direction. I read mixed reports as I scan the various forums also.

So, it's hard to know exactly who to believe. As was pointed out above, and as often needs to be mentioned anytime anyone is having software or operational troubles in a DAW forum, everyone's system differs and many are unique. I think it is quite important to note here, though, that practically all the companies who offer customised PCs for our audio needs still offer the choice of purchasing with Windows 7 installed, and they tend to put mention of this option UP TOP is their websites and not buried under long lists. This speaks volumes to me.

If I could make only one contention in this post, it would be this: We users here in digital audio need some kind of organised voice or organisation to throw some weight around and give more importance to our needs. I'm not saying here we need to be in lock-step and all hold the same opinion on any and all matters, but I've grown incredibly tired of the constant bulldozing and condescension we receive from Monolith Microsoft. You'd think with all the market share MS has already lost over Win8 that there would have been at least some humbling within MS. But, NO, this Windows Blue (or call it 8.1) bludgeons onward, offering basically nothing to benefit audio. Here we go -- more MS arrogance out by autumn!

(Stats: only 15% of businesses have or say they will adopt W8; MS claims slightly more than 100 million W8 licenses sold in the last 2 quarters; meanwhile, more than 200 million real-PC models were sold, so which OS are they running?! ; those not liking, not wanting, or not buying a touch-screen model must drag their mouse all over kingdom come to use W8; MS has fogged the issues by making out that the loss of the cherished Start Menu is about the only issue with W8; details are still sketchy -- typical MS -- but the widely disliked Metro feature seems here to stay ... perhaps the hunt for hidden charms as well?
Stats gathered/compared from various current PC mags, etc.)

[richie43]

I frequently run very large projects (75-100+ tracks), plenty of fx (some CPU munchers-Nebula and such), and I have the best performance with Windows 8 than I have had with any other OS. And my modest Q8400 Core2 Quad was upgraded (not fresh install) to 8 from 7, so my comparison between 7 and 8 is on the same machine. I am not understanding what is so terrible about 8. I have been feeling like Microsoft unknowingly did us audio folks a huge favor by making an OS that works for audio.... Maybe I'm a lucky one.

Edit
I did, however, install the "classic shell", a 3rd party shell that bypasses the whole metro garbage and gave me back my start menu.

[Coachz]

7 works for audio, did you see my latencies above ? I could get no better in win 8

[richie43]

Originally Posted by Coachz

7 works for audio, did you see my latencies above ? I could get no better in win 8

Is it possible that this is caused by something else? I only ask because I have lower latency and a decreased CPU load running the same projects on the same machine. And I did not do any of the typical "tweaks" that people seem to think will help. Maybe I got lucky, but the day I upgraded to 8 was like a small miracle for me.I'll go read the beginning of the thread and ask more questions. I am just suspicious that your problems are not caused by Windows 8.

[The Telenator]

Hi, richie. Your comment about your results is among the very positive, obviously, and not unique. It certainly is encouraging, to say the least. I just wish we were hearing this sort overwhelmingly.

[richie43]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

Hi, richie. Your comment about your results is among the very positive, obviously, and not unique. It certainly is encouraging, to say the least. I just wish we were hearing this sort overwhelmingly.

It just seems that many of the people reporting issues with Windows 8 are possibly jumping a bit quickly to blame the OS. As we all know, there are so many hardware and software issues that can cause blips, blops, crackles, and crappy low latency performance. And that's long before we point to the inherent behavior of the OS. Graphics cards, bad RAM modules, rogue software, wireless routers, anti-virus, bad bios settings..... This is just off the top of my head, I am sure there are more likely culprits. I am very comfortable rolling up my sleevs and diving into "tweaking" (I've even compiled my own linux kernel and assembled my own custom linux OS....ooooh, I'm THAT cool...), but after I upgraded, I have not had to do anything besides update drivers and make music. Lots of music. I am just encouraging people to look into their set-ups before they go back to 7 or even (gasp ) XP.

[The Telenator]

Yes, that must be considered -- all you said. I've seen, for example, merely the driver for a graphics chip on an otherwise awesome machine throw the entire PC into fits of DPC, ISR and hard pagefaults. Nvidia is, or at least used to be a prime offender. In order to achieve best graphics, they would punish the crap out of the PC's graphics kernel. Ought to be illegal!

[richie43]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

Yes, that must be considered -- all you said. I've seen, for example, merely the driver for a graphics chip on an otherwise awesome machine throw the entire PC into fits of DPC, ISR and hard pagefaults. Nvidia is, or at least used to be a prime offender. In order to achieve best graphics, they would punish the crap out of the PC's graphics kernel. Ought to be illegal!

That is exactly the type of things I am asking people to look at (Coachz, are you there?)

[Coachz]

when i installed win8 i used the nvidia driver that win8 included. I also tried a few from nvidia. I spent a month with win8 and it simply didn't offer me anything I wanted and was no better for latency for me so combined with taking away my Win key shortcuts, the interface I didn't like and constant windows explorer crashes due to some unknown cause I'm back on win7 and doing fine.

As long as I can make music without the pc getting in my way I'm good.

[acousticglue]

The chkdsk issue is a MS update that was recalled. This was a known issue.

[Anomaly]

Originally Posted by acousticglue

The chkdsk issue is a MS update that was recalled. This was a known issue.

You are probably referring to KB2823324. I never have had that on my PC, so it was not the cause for me.

I reinstalled windows 8 and I have now managed to run 2 days without corruption problems... I think I'm ready to hit format C: and never look back if the problems continues.

@Coachz - that's admirable dpc latency. I have never, ever managed to get that low with any hardware I have owned. It might be because I use nvidia products...

[Coachz]

my video card is the nvidia 210. I just make sure to do a base install and make drive images every step of the way until i see what driver is hosing me.

Originally Posted by Anomaly

You are probably referring to KB2823324. I never have had that on my PC, so it was not the cause for me.

I reinstalled windows 8 and I have now managed to run 2 days without corruption problems... I think I'm ready to hit format C: and never look back if the problems continues.

@Coachz - that's admirable dpc latency. I have never, ever managed to get that low with any hardware I have owned. It might be because I use nvidia products...

[Anomaly]

Originally Posted by Coachz

my video card is the nvidia 210. I just make sure to do a base install and make drive images every step of the way until i see what driver is hosing me.

I have gtx560ti. Should it matter if running non 3d applications?
I think a big impact might come from mobo & bios. Perhaps gigabyte is a better choice than asus in this matter.

[Anomaly]

I have made some quick performance comparison between W7 and W8.
The test was made with a reaper project running as many tracks as possible, each track consisting of reasynth (as a sound source) and reacomp with 64x oversampling. The purpose was to test cpu capabilities only, thus not using any sample based material which would have resulted disk activity.

The same portable installation of reaper was used in both W7 and W8 along with the same buffer size (128) and samplerate (96KHz).

Running 30 tracks in W7, reaper CPU meter read 50-55%. FX cpu meter read 61-64%. Windows task manager showed also: 50-55%

30 tracks in W8 resulted 71-75% in reaper CPU meter, 60-61% FX cpu and 82% in windows task manager.

During the test, Latency Monitor reported much higher ITP spikes in W7 (around 3000us) compared to W8 (1000us).

Running 46 tracks in both systems provided equal CPU load, which was 99-99.9% Occasionally W7 reached full 100%. At this point the audio was still clean, but W7 seemed little more prone to breakups, but I didn't have time to test further.

So the verdict... ? Both systems performs quite equally, perhaps there is a little advantage for W8. This was just a CPU test, not accounting hard disk.

Interesting is that with lesser track count (30) W8 cpu readings were very alarming. In both systems CPU was driven at full clock speed during the tests. Or at least so CPU-z reported.
With 46 tracks the there were no difference.

cheers

[The Telenator]

richie43's results are what we should all hope and dream for, but yours, Anomaly, are the best results on a W8 that I more often see.

It sure would be great if we could get to the bottom of all this.

[richie43]

Very interesting. I wish I had documented some tests before I upgraded. So my comparisons are really based on the thresholds and limits that I hit on 7 that were higher on 8. Certainly not scientific data, but i know that I have less trouble and can run bigger projects.

[Tod]

Heh heh, I don't know if this thread is helping or hurting?

I'm still on the fence for which OS I want to get for my new computer.

[richie43]

I have dual booted Windows with some random distro of linux for many years, but never on my main DAW. I know that this makes no logical sense, and I am extremely computer savvy, but I am not super geek.... but I can't help but wonder if dual booting 2 windows OS's may be "confusing" WIndows 8. Linux, for example, doesn't care about drive letters, root folders, etc (as long as a root and home folder exist, all is good). But (correct me if I am wrong) I always thought that if Windows does not see the OS on THE C DRIVE, things can get wacky. yes, you can point it to whatever drive the OS is on, but as much as I love my Windows/Reaper DAW, I always keep on the top of my brain the notion that Windows is not by nature a flexible or forgiving OS. I wonder how those tests between 7 and 8 would turn out if they were on single OS computers of at least nearly the same specs. Like I said, this could be me reaching for solutions, but why not? I have a hard time believing that 8 is inferior when I not only saw improvements, but i saw very significant improvements. Just an idea maybe worth looking into.

[ivansc]

Win 7 pro 64bit on desktop, Win8 64bit Home Premium on the laptop.

Once I figured out what to keep and what to dump, the only real difference I see is down to a much slower weaker i5 in the laptop and a 6 core Phenom II in the desktop.
Oh and 8gb of DDR3ram in both.

Of course having a RME interface in the desktop, running on the pci bus versus a saffire6 usb 1.1 on the laptop is the biggest difference.

But on the whole I don't really have ANY issues with Win8.

Frankly,apart from the GUI it is so similar to 7, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

[richie43]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Frankly,apart from the GUI it is so similar to 7, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

It IS very much the same as 7, at least i always thought so. Once I disabled the metro thingy and installed a 3rd party shell, I sometimes forget that i am on a different OS until I approach one of the thresholds that i used to hit (and then the threshold doesn't appear).

[Coachz]

In Win 8 your window key cannot be disabled to allow Reaper to use it for shortcuts. For me, it's a big deal.
In win 7 it can.

[novaburst]

Hi richie43
In other words... just because Jesus pranced around in nightgowns in the water with a bunch of other single men with no underwear on doesn't mean he was gay." Lawrence


Please let me remind you that this Jesus gave His life for you the Blood that was pored from Jesus when He was on the Cross was for you, me and the rest of the world for the cleansing of our wrongs (sins) but it dose not stop there for this same Jesus will come to earth again not as a sacrifice but as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and every one shall fall to there nee and confess with there tong that Jesus Christ is Lord.

on that day those who don't believe will run to the rocks and say fall on us, they shall say hide us from His face,

Who is able to stand on the great and terrible Judgment day of God
richie43 are you able to stand on that day, can you with stand the wrath and judgment of God?

For the word of God says after death comes the Judgment weather you believe or not Judgment will come.

richie43 putting such statements on your posts for every one to see is Blasphemy, it does not matter who quoted it the statement is a lie, in know where in the bible is there a scripture or verse stating what Lawrence has quoted, but you willingly aline your self up with this cursed man with out a second thought you have become a curse and you will bring that curse onto all those who love you if you continue with that statement.

Its funny you know" how people make such shameful statements about Christ who has done them nothing but good and offer eternal life.

you would not do that to the Muslim faith or make a statement like that about there prophet would you, but you shamelessly leave such statements about the one who gave His life for you.

tell me richie43 are you of those devils that willingly go down to the pit of Hell and suffer eternal torment in the presence of God and His angels, have you no fear of God or have you no shame.

I also say shame to the moderator and all those who believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ for allowing such statements to continue.

Yes this forum is about Daws, yes this forum is about music, yes this forum is about OS, and plugins and mixers.

But under no circumstance should this forum be about bringing shame to God and His Christ in no form what so ever.

[karbomusic]

Please let me remind you that this Jesus gave His life for you the Blood that was pored from Jesus when He was on the Cross was for you

Please allow me to remind you that many us beg to differ and are not religious at all. You are free to feel however you wish but doing so does not make it true in anyway shape or form. So, if you want to harp on your religious beliefs, delusions or whatever they may be, please do so in the lounge; there are plenty there more than willing to engage you in such a debacle. Outside of the lounge it isn't appropriate at all and you are littering an otherwise very useful thread.

[Tod]

Oh my goodness, heh heh, well back to Win8.

Originally Posted by ivansc

Frankly,apart from the GUI it is so similar to 7, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

My wife has Win-8 on her laptop so I've had a chance to play around with it some. I really don't find it like Win-7 at all, but then I haven't tried to customize it at all yet either.

I didn't have too much trouble going from XP to Win-7, I think the thing I miss with Win-8 is the way Sart worked in both XP and Sin-7.

I will have to take a little more time with the Win-8 to see if I can get a little more familiar with it.

[Coachz]

yeah stay on topic, though putting that quote in a signature is asking for conflict

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Please allow me to remind you that many us beg to differ and are not religious at all. You are free to feel however you wish but doing so does not make it true in anyway shape or form. So, if you want to harp on your religious beliefs, delusions or whatever they may be, please do so in the lounge; there are plenty there more than willing to engage you in such a debacle. Outside of the lounge it isn't appropriate at all and you are littering an otherwise very useful thread.

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Coachz

In Win 8 your window key cannot be disabled to allow Reaper to use it for shortcuts. For me, it's a big deal.
In win 7 it can.

Er - I dont have a windows key to disable...Keysonic Nano keyboard!

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by novaburst

But under no circumstance should this forum be about bringing shame to God and His Christ in no form what so ever.

Erm... give it a rest, zealot.