Another common "mistake" is to spoon feed the reader/listener.
That can take a few forms - it can be when you decide what's the case and leave no room for the reader/listener to discover.
It could be using loads of adjectives. Thinking that you're being descriptive when what you're actually doing is to smother the thing by drawing the outlines too firmly and leaving no room or possibilities.
And yet value judgements and spoon feeding and over use of adjectives is admired in children or young people when they start to write - probably because it's the beginning of "showing imagination". Not just in youngsters - if you know someone who was "always wanting to write a novel" and of who "people were always saying they were talented" - then the chances are that these "mistakes" are exactly what they're calling "imagination" or being "a good writer".
That kind of showy or overblown or affected or mawkish thing that looks like good writing because "at least they're showing imagination".
_
Visco, can you give us some examples of value judgements?
Well, just smuggling something in that you've taken for granted is a good or a bad thing in itself.
________________
I'm going to stop at this point to mention something important - something that makes discussing these things difficult or confusing.
This : that a writer putting the words into someone else's mouth is a different thing from the writer him/herself making value judgements.
That is, if you're creating a character or speaking-as-a-character then of course you could employ the character making value judgements.
Because you're revealing his/her personality for inspection and for the reader/listener to interpret.
_
The problem comes when the writer is making value judgements.
Because that's a lecture.
_
I suppose one of your "jobs" as a writer is to do the hard work of laying out the possibilities or rather providing the constellation or arena where the reader/listener can inspect things.
So if you're going to present them with chunks where you already decided what's what - then it's kind of naff or disrespectful of their part in it.
If you're doing that then you're basically saying "you can look at all these things I brought for you too enjoy as you pass, but don't inspect them or dismantle them; and don't walk around the back and take a look - keep to your own side of the rope.".
You know - you're asking the reader/listener to accept what you already decided before they can proceed.
_
Here's an example of what I mean about the "richness" or rather the possibiities available in not "spoonfeeding" the listener/reader vs ... spoonfeeding them.
I've picked to supposedly similar artists - two who are, on the face of it, similar - in that they're both acoustic singer-songwriters of a similar period ... Bob Dylan and Steve Forbert.
If you read interviews from back in the day, the comparison is valid if only on a surface level, and Forbert was often referred to as "the new Dylan".
I have a bit of nostalgic affection for the Steve Forbert song, because I heard it often as a youngster. And yet I'm hoping to illustrate the difference between a "straight" song where the listener has a limited part vs Bob Dylan where much more is left to the imagination.
First of all, even the "spoonfeeding" example I reckon is a decent song of that type. I'm not saying you should prefer Dylan to Forbert.
I'm saying that regardless of whether you reckon Dylan made a "richer" work, he uses the technique that makes layers and "richness" accessible - and at least if you study that you can see 2 clearly different technical approaches.
_
You all know Blowin' in the Wind ... so I'll post the lyrics to Steve Forbert's song (video below) ...
Goin Down to Laurel
Well [C] everybody here, [G] seems to like to laugh
[Dmin] Look at Johnny jivin' across [G] the floor
He [C] can play the fool and [G] make a few mistakes,
[Dmin] But all the same he'll never be [G] a bore
I'm [C] glad to be so young [G] talkin' with my tongue
[D min] Glad to be so careless in [G] my way
[C] Glad to take a chance [G] and play against the odds
[D min] Glad to be so crazy in [G] my day
Well [C] I'm goin' [C/B] down to [A min] Laurel
[G] It's a dirty stinkin' town [Am] yea
[F] But me I know [G] exactly what I'm going to [Am] find
[C-G-A min] [D min] Little girl [E min] I'm goin' to see
[Am] She is a fool for [C] lovin' me
[F] But she's in love [G] and love's a funny state of [C] mind
Yes it is (on second chorus)
Well [C] what was that you said [G] when you had a tear
[D min]Rolling down your cheek the [G] other night
[C] I couldn't catch it all [G] there's something going wrong
[D min]I hope you got it straightened out [G] alright
[C] Everything's so loud [G]and everything's so fast
[D min]I here your brother married once [G]again
Yea [C] best of luck and all and [G] try to have some fun
[D min]They tell me this great life can always [G] end
CHORUS
harmonica theme again: [C-G-D min-G]
I'm [C] smilin' from a car, I'm [G] goin' for a drive
[D min]Feel the whistle blowin' breeze gone [G]flying by
[C] Mirror's on the moon, [G] echo in the sun
[D min] See just a touch of madness [G]in my eye
[C]Please don't mention rain, [G] please don't talk of trains
Another Steve Forbert song with just acoustic guitar and vocals ...
Like the previous one, it's more or less a straight story (the only departure or "twist" being the final line "all ears may listen for free" - suggesting a kind of generosity of spirit or altruism). Apart from that it's descriptive picture painting with no room for anything other than to reconstruct the picture being presented to you in your mind.
Again, I reckon Forbert is an accomplished songwriter of that type.
I'd go as far as to say that this distinction I'm on about is the difference between art and ... not art.
You know - the gathering together of of forms or words or images where an internal dynamic is set up that makes it greater than the sum of its parts.
Frees it from the surface.
And that the reverse is true - where there's spoonfeeding and the focus is on the surface ... that that's an impediment to art. In making it too exact and bounded, you're smothering it.
I always have difficulty writing lyrics, always. I have tended to develop a
tune and a structure and very, very occasionally added lyrics.
Some tunes get chucked out very quickly. Some hang about for months unfinished, with me adding a few bars, changing the structure,or adding a middle eight or something.
A very few tunes shout loudly for me to write lyrics, and sometimes, sometimes a one liner comes to mind. Something I heard, something I read (or mis-read/heard) and I take it from there. When this happens It usually takes me about 30 mins to get it down, never longer. Whatever it was that I heard or read usually triggers an emotional response from me, it resonates, so I find I am half-writing from an experience and remembered feeling and give it meaning.
I wouldn't expect any one else to have the same or similar response and mostly people say " wtf was that about". My grandchildren just say "hmm, err grandad". Sometimes I bother to explain, mostly I don't. Sometimes it can get so abstracted I don't know wtf it was about myself.
Anyway, I enjoy making music so much, adding lyrics is a bonus, especially, to my old codger mind, when it works.
Here are a few examples:
First Date: two early teenagers go for a meal. How do you know how to behave?
This is a memory. It is sort of sad but warms my heart.
Only a table for two remains
he and she the strangers
sit at the very same moment
exchanging nervous glances
laugh at a joke
which starts a conversation
she suggests a walk together
So are you happy
I don't mean to pry
do you dream of heaven
ever wanted to fly
I was never scared of ghosts
until you left.
------------------------------------
If I'd Have Known: A wtf one. Bits resonate but it was random but scanned ok.
If I'd have known
which way you'd flown
Id have followed you
back to a time
where ghosts shed tears
and men fall down
as the years come around
If I'd have known
i wouldn't feel so sure
so full of sympathy
I bled for you
unlocking the doorway
time passes by
endlessly
If I'd have known
standing all alone
Drifting through the dark
inside my heart
I find the reason
But it falls in vain
Like the desert rain
then fades away
------------------------------------
You bit my lip: Not sure where this came from but I must have been pissed or depressed I think, possibly randy too.
You bit my lip
then I bit yours
in anticipation of
a better time to come
we undressed slowly
taking time
with eyes closed
on a moonless evening
hidden city of our thoughts
language ends its journey
silence takes its place
feelings are pregnant
with its passing
thick with tears
Ive wondered about nothing
a sea of wasted waves
a climax of confusion
wondering to forget
You bit my lip
then I bit yours
something came to dance with us
and we became the song.
---------------------------------------
A New Beginning: Read too much sci-fi and listened to too much Flaming Lips
Imagine the earth
disappearing as it turns
behind the sun
no one saw it
we are sleeping
dreaming to the end
There's a shadow on the sun
moonless evenings to come
we have caused it to be
no next mornings
its all dark night from now
dreaming to the end
now
that words
cant measure
the time
now
that light
has ended
the waiting
It was so long ago
we learned a new dance
not easy
with wings so light
we dared to take flight
a new beginning.
So, if you fancy putting a tune to any of this just have a go.
I can't tell too much if I like a lyric when it's separate from the music but your examples show way more structure and pacing than I ever had myself. Though a low bar I do set
I can't tell too much if I like a lyric when it's separate from the music but your examples show way more structure and pacing than I ever had myself. Though a low bar I do set
Thanks for that Garrick. It is pretty random for me though. Sitting alongside those few are many, many others in the bin.
Here are the rough mixes with the lyrics, as above.
Did I say rough mixes? Yup I did...
My voice is crap so don't pay too much attention - 40 years smoking doesn't do any favours. As I said,I get so much enjoyment from doing all of this, lyrics are a bonus when they happen.
As I walk on the path of living
Imperiled by the raging wind and rain
And I ask O Great Spirit
That I may yet always walk like a man
When I look behind and before me
I can gather all the strength I need for my journey
And whose voice do I hear whose breath keeps on giving
In the distance of the wind I come to you as one of many
And I see standing there the men with souls so dead, who never to the world can justify
This is our land the land we love
But for a God they claim the right to take away the things we shared
But we know what we know and we will never _ concede !
Here I stand and the tree is withered
And again I recall the greatest vision of them all
And it may be that you still wonder
If the roots of the sacred tree still grow in this land
As I stood alone I could see more
And I knew that I knew much more than I saw before my journey
And who will nurture it who will keep it growing
So the people may once again find the road and shape of all that's living
And I see standing there the men with souls so dead, who never to the world can justify
This is our land the land we love
But for a God they claim the right to take away the things we shared
But we know what we know and we will never _ concede !
There's a song title right there. Maybe for later...
Wanna give me a hand? It's called Paranoid Blues, begins perhaps like this:
Woke up this morning
with a television set on my head
Woke up this morning
with a camera team in my bed
I told those friendly commies
Sorry, but Mao and Stalin are dead.
That's how far my imagination goes. Fake fantasy, fake dreams... where will it end? Or rather, what will happen next?
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Anyone know/remember much about Jaialai back in the seventies/eighties? I am writing a song about the game as a simile for a hard life & am struggling to find much authentic commentary on what it was like in its hey day, even with a brother living in Florida, where it was apparently pretty popular.
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Jerome: Must be that time of year...my brother just wrote me a huge, rambing e-letter along similar lines about his newly qualified yoga-instructor wife!
(and I have been privately thinking along similar lines, despite the lyrics of Mamas in control above)
Jerome: Must be that time of year...my brother just wrote me a huge, rambing e-letter along similar lines about his newly qualified yoga-instructor wife!
(and I have been privately thinking along similar lines, despite the lyrics of Mamas in control above)
She's a right regular muse when she is pissing me off. I wrote this one a bit ago, and I really like it.
Take a Load Off
Bm G
One more stone into my wagon
Bm F#m
One more straw upon my back
One more mountain to climb over
'Cause I don't think I'm coming back
Life ain't easy but I'll make it
As much as my heart will allow
This messed up way of loving you
Leaves too much sweat upon my brow
Bm G
"Baby take a load off don't worry bout a thing"
Is one more on the list of things I'll never hear you say
We should run through green fields and dance with the wind
G F#m Bm
But you'd just add to my burdens again
There's no richer, only poorer
There's no better, only worse.
Some things will last forever
Even things that seem a curse
I can't escape into the bottle
I can't run away and hide
There is no looking for a better day
When all you do is cry
If we stare at blue skies you would tell me about the rain
And If I showed you the stars you would never look again
We should run through green fields and dance in the rain
But you'd just add to my burdens again.
I wrote this a while back but just cannot seem to work a tune to it.
So, if you fancy it have a go, no strings attached.
It's one of those sets of words that just flowed mostly, written in about 30 mins. It just sat there looking at me, I tinkered a bit and it smiled back at me as if to say " come on, come on, when is the tune coming"...
Temp title is 'You Gotta Larf'
what do you think
when your listening to friends
joking about the way the world is
do you think you should comment
or join in the joke
think your own thoughts
while quietly chuckling
what do you think
when you read the news
does it all seem a big waste of time
tilting at windmills is all you can do
just keep up appearances
slightly invisible
I light a candle
by the side of my bed
it smoulders contentiously
I stare at the wick while it fizzles and spits
spluttering out
leaving pools of confusion
I wake up early
and climb out of bed
look in the mirror, has anything changed
my smile is smaller, a little bit thinner
we all start to fade
when we've been around so long
what do you think
having thought for so long
is your bucket list nearly complete
can you be bothered
to finish it off
or have some more beer and play some more music.
Not completely at ease with the last two lines of the second verse, or the last line of the last verse, but there.
Another Steve Forbert song with just acoustic guitar and vocals ...
Like the previous one, it's more or less a straight story (the only departure or "twist" being the final line "all ears may listen for free" - suggesting a kind of generosity of spirit or altruism). Apart from that it's descriptive picture painting with no room for anything other than to reconstruct the picture being presented to you in your mind.
Again, I reckon Forbert is an accomplished songwriter of that type.
_
Hadn't thought about Steve Forbert in years, always like his lyrics, especially here:
I have been talking to my 2 sons and my daughter every week and we always seem to say something about how odd it feels not being able to physically be with their children.
My oldest lives just a few miles away and we had them 2 days a week. We would pick them up from school, take them to clubs and the youngest would spend the 2 whole days with us. My other son lives about 150 miles away so a day trip once a month for the weekend was no big deal. My daughter also lives close by and we would have her 14 month old for 3 days of the week.
Now of course we whatsapp them but its no where near the same as having them around.
On the other hand, I am sure it must be a strain for parents used to having grandparent have the kids while they worked or the kids being at school. And I am sure it is a strain for kids not having the structure of school and no contact with other kids.
Well it got me thinking and some words came to mind:
Put on yer gloves
mask on yer face
haz suit and goggles
just to be safe
If you do as your told
youll live till yer old
Then ill push you round the garden
on yer bike
I filled the room
with puzzles on the floor
the biggest you've ever seen
with thousands of pieces
We could do it together
it fills the time
Then ill push you round the garden
on yer bike
Lets do some painting
get the crayons out too
find all the best books
read a story to you
have a picnic in your bedroom
and yer sister can come too
Then ill push you round the garden
on yer bike
Put on yer gloves
mask on yer face
haz suit and goggles
just to be safe
If you do as your told
youll live till yer old
Hi Ivan, I was just about to put in a soundcloud link. I did a little tune and chords for my eldest grandchild - 9 years old - so she could play along with her ukulele.
It was just a bit of fun really despite the weird times we live in!
Please do go ahead and post it too. I will put my version up later though I bow to your wisdom and experience in advance
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
You have got to be kidding! I am halfway through my first solo album & I am doing it in a "proper" pro studio to be sure I get good results! All I really do these days is rough demos. You`ll see!
You know, I have never been in a 'real' pro studio.
There are a couple near me and I did make a list to make contact but never got around to it.
I will see what's what when the coast is clear.
Do you think they would let an old geezer hang about for half a day and ask stupid questions?
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertP
Do you think they would let an old geezer hang about for half a day and ask stupid questions?
Absolutely, so long as you don`t get in anyone`s face too much. Usually control room only, but that is where all the techie stuff happens.
One thing I am a little uncomfortable with in the studio I am using is that the control room is HUGE & the live room (s) smaller and very dimly lit. The engineer likes singer in the control room & band in the live room. This is all well & good but I play rhythm guitar and sing the main vocal. Very difficult singing stuck up against the window into the live room, as I cant see the band in there & my guitar amp is in yet another room! Getting used to it, but I may suggest that I play in with the band whilst doing a scratch vocal next time, then re-doing the proper version of the vocal after.
I wrote this a while back but just cannot seem to work a tune to it.
So, if you fancy it have a go, no strings attached.
It's one of those sets of words that just flowed mostly, written in about 30 mins. It just sat there looking at me, I tinkered a bit and it smiled back at me as if to say " come on, come on, when is the tune coming"...
Hi RP. I messed around with your lyrics on the guitar at lunch and came up with something. Use it as brainstorm or chuck it.
I interpreted the first stanza as chorus. It has 7 lines. The other stanzas are what I name as verses.
My process in coming up with something was the usual - lay down the first line, hear what would be the obvious response to it, change it so it is not so obvious, treat lines that flow together with chords that flow together, don't always rely on the root, but try 3rds etc, think about the whole while putting the parts together, relate the chorus and verse but make em contrast. Make it all singable. All those typical melody-chord ideas.
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Sorryt but LIFE has gotten in the way. A family member diagnosed with a terminal illness & my own health wandering all over the place lately.
Hope you get that song finished! Good luck.
Linear Mode
