Piano vst

[G-Sun]

Hi!

What's a decent sampled piano that's not breaking the bank?

I have Kontakt 5 with August Forester piano,
but then I prefer my old Yamaha P80 digital piano.
I especially like decent repedaling and allthough it's maybe impossible -good soundboard ressonanse.
All purpose, upright or grand.

Medium footprint for cpu/ram/hd is also a plus.

[Naji]

You have Kontakt, so why not trying Galaxy Vintage D ?
Pianoteq is nice, too, but it´s not sampled !

The piano plugin I use mostly is Piano One, the great thing is the fact
it is free ! and I like it even more than Galaxy or Pianoteq,
but it depends what I do, if I play classical stuff, I prefer Galaxy Vintage D,
but also here it depends on what I play, if I play e.g. a Nocturne, I prefer Piano One again

Yamaha P80 of course is way better than any plugin, although Yamaha
uses samples, as well. Yamaha S90 has the best piano I ve ever heard !

My list

Galaxy Vintage D for
Van Beethoven, Sonatas (Chopin), or Etudes (Chopin), Abdullah Ibrahim
Rachmaninow

Pianoteq
Thelonious Monk, Bill Evans, Satie, Preludes (Chopin),
Miles Davis, Roy Ayers

Piano One
Mazurkas and Nocturnes (Chopin), Mozart, Bach, Ludwig Schuncke,
Pop and R&B, eletro (dance) & house, Stevie Wonder

But when I play a Yamaha S90, these plugins do not exist any more for me !

And NI´s "The Giant" is a nice and special piano plugin !
And Kontakt´s Upright piano is not bad, either, but NI´s piano Grand series is not very good.

[AfterlifE]

I use Akoustik Piano by NI, and Omnisphere. Both sound great!

[ginormous]

I've been chasing piano vst's for a while, and Piano One is pretty good.
I have to play with the "lid" settings (really, nothing more than high-end roll off) to keep it from sounding too sparkly. It's built off a Yamaha C7, and those things are bright enough in the natural world.

Bigcat Instruments City Piano is a freeware goodie sampled off a Baldwin grand, and it's formatted for VST, Kontakt, SampleTank and sfz. It sounds really good, but it's really sample intense. 4 velocity layers in round robin. It'll eat up your hard drive.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Naji

Pianoteq is nice, too, but it´s not sampled !

You make it sound like it's a bad thing, but it is in fact the best possible thing out there. ESPECIALLY for classical stuff!

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Naji

The piano plugin I use mostly is Piano One, the great thing is the fact
it is free ! and I like it even more than Galaxy or Pianoteq,

Ok, cool. I'll have to try it out then. Can't beat free
I was considdering Sample Magics other stuff as well. Anyone use it/like it?

Yamaha P80 of course is way better than any plugin, although Yamaha
uses samples, as well.

Ok, I thought the P80 was outdated, but you tell me it's better than most/all plugs?
I really like the pedal-handling of it though, but I'm not over-enthusiastic about the total sound. But maybe that's the limitations of sampled pianos?

Galaxy Vintage D: I've heard much good about it.

[G-Sun]

Second thought, Piano One: I believe I have demoed it before and deleted it from my HD..

[Andy Hamm]

I've always like the Salamander Grand Piano, and I have been using the V3 48Khz 24 bit Sample set- which is anything but a small footprint. There are smaller sample sets available for it though.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Ok, I thought the P80 was outdated

It sure is.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Andy Hamm

I've always like the Salamander Grand Piano, and I have been using the V3 48Khz 24 bit Sample set- which is anything but a small footprint. There are smaller sample sets available for it though.

I'm after a well scripted piano, and the Salamander is just pure samples, or I'm I wrong?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

I'm after a well scripted piano, and the Salamander is just pure samples, or I'm I wrong?

Hi G-Sun, as I go through this thread, I'm really confused about what your're looking for.

When you talk about your Yamaha P80 and how it sounds, are you talking about how it sounds recorded into Reaper or how it sounds stand a lone, that is if it's self contained?

For the most part I get along fine with Kontakts pianos however, I've got them from back as far as K2, but I don't think there's a lot of difference in them.

If I was doing a major piano concerto, then it might be different story, but then if I was into that kind of thing I'd already have the best software I could find for it.

Depending on what you're looking for, or what your point of reference might be, piano can be not only hard to find, but also deceiving unless you know exactly what you're looking for and why.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi G-Sun, as I go through this thread, I'm really confused about what your're looking for.

When you talk about your Yamaha P80 and how it sounds, are you talking about how it sounds recorded into Reaper or how it sounds stand a lone, that is if it's self contained?

For the most part I get along fine with Kontakts pianos however, I've got them from back as far as K2, but I don't think there's a lot of difference in them.

If I was doing a major piano concerto, then it might be different story, but then if I was into that kind of thing I'd already have the best software I could find for it.

Depending on what you're looking for, or what your point of reference might be, piano can be not only hard to find, but also deceiving unless you know exactly what you're looking for and why.

Thanks Tod

Well, I'd like to have a vsti piano for the convenience of having it in the box. The P80 is hardware, nice to play but I'm not to happy about the final sound (standalone or recorded into reaper is the same).
The Kontakt August Forester, I find to weak compared to my P80, so I don't use it. Repedaling being one of the reasons (the P80 is very nice here)

Yes, I'm a little torn about what to aim for, if any. I have a pc Pnetium D 2x3,4Ghz, 4GB Ram and some IDE/SATA drives (giving me the blue screen quite often) and that sets a limit for what vsts I can run. On the other side, I have to buy a new pc in not so long time, so then a more modern sized library would be the thing.
I'm after sound and playability, classical, singer/songwriter, pop.

Then it's a question about money and what I need.
I guess I'd buy a cheap piano-vsti right now if I believed it'll fit my bill, or find out what I would like to buy, let's say within a year or to, aimed for new projects and maybe new pc.

[G-Sun]

I guess my question is: Is there a pro piano bargain out there?

[Naji]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

You make it sound like it's a bad thing, but it is in fact the best possible thing out there. ESPECIALLY for classical stuff!

I mentioned that Pianoteq is not sampled, because OP asked for sampled piano plugins. Pianoteq´s physical modeling is good and sampled pianos are good - you have the choice.
I do not like people saying that physical modeling is way better,
if yes,
why is the majority still sampled and still available and why is Pianoteq so cheap ?

To say Yamaha P80 is outdated, is like to say Mini Moog is outdated.
P80 was one of the best selling digital pianos ever !
"Forget the bells and whistles, the blinking lights...for many of today's piano players, there are only two things that matter an awesome piano sound and authentic piano Action...!"

and comparing a hardware digital piano to a software piano plugin will make hardware always beat software;
it´s strange, because digital hardware pianos mostly use samples as well, but it sounds a lot better than plugins,
we tested and compared a lot here !

@ G-Sun - Piano One would be the best choice - it´s cheap, no it´s even free, you can tweak the sound and low CPU usage.
But you deleted it, so you seem to like a very special piano sound ?!
Then maybe NI`s "The Giant" ?

http://www.native-instruments.com/en...eys/the-giant/

[G-Sun]

Thanks!

Pianoteq: Demoing again. Not a sound I enjoy. Listening in headphones.

Vintage Galaxy D: Listening to the demos. Nice. I don't expect a sonic extasy by a sampled piano, but if it doesn't make me want to throw away my phones after seconds and minutes, that's pretty good. Like it. I guess it'll be the one to aim for. To pity it's no real demo (but understand why).

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Naji

and comparing a hardware digital piano to a software piano plugin will make hardware always beat software;
it´s strange, because digital hardware pianos mostly use samples as well, but it sounds a lot better than plugins

I disagree with that claim.

[Naji]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

I disagree with that claim.

No ! I am not lying, it´s true, we tested in a dealer´s shop with a lot of KAWAI, Roland, Yamaha, KORG, CASIO, Nordlead and compared with
many software plugins
e.g.
Bestservice, Steinberg piano VSTi, Synthogy, Toontrack, NI, Pianoteq and some more
and the difference was not subtle, the difference was perceivable, of course you need a very good Audio Interface in order to have good quality when recording Hardware to your daw.

Maybe one reason is the fact that the samples of a hardware piano are adjusted to the keyboard - perfect match.


But People have different likes.
As you can see G-Sun prefers Galaxy Vintage D.
I like both, Pianoteq and Galaxy, but one of the best plugins is Piano One, IMHO.

If hardware was not better, then most live pianists (the ones playing digital pianos in a smaller venue) would take their laptop for a performance and play e.g. Pianoteq,
never seen that

[EvilDragon]

It may be "true" for you, but it's far from truth from my experience. And yes - velocity curve has a great deal of impact. Of course it needs to be tweaked to one's touch. I find many hardware instruments don't have velocity curves that match my playing style - instant disconnect. And VERY few hardware digital pianos have user-editable velocity curves (Kawai is one of them). Those that don't have user-editable velocity curves are immediately inferior in my eyes. No matter how "good" they might sound (but in any case, Pianoteq's sound-shaping flexibility outperforms them all).


BTW, some pianists indeed do perform live with Pianoteq from time to time, for example Hugh Sung. And that's a classical pianist, even.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Naji

Maybe one reason is the fact that the samples of a hardware piano are adjusted to the keyboard - perfect match.

Well, that is a reasonable argument to me. Else hardware or plugs, to my understanding they must be somewhat identical inside.

[EvilDragon]

Samples aren't "adjusted to the keyboard" in any way... it's all done via velocity curves. And of course, the choice of keyboard action is extremely important too.

[Naji]

I tried to say that the samples of a hardware piano should work well with the keyboard action however they manage to do it (velocity...
I agree, Pianoteq is great also with regard to tweaking and adjusting to one´s own preferences.
Okay, some might use a Laptop, but some is still a minority

AND if you are in biz and a professional classical pianist you play the Steinway they have mostly,
but if your name was Josef Kazimierz Hofmann - a pianist from Poland, one of the best ever,
Rachmaninow dedicated one of his best works (piano concert) to him, if your name was Hofmann,
Steinway maybe would produce a piano with smaller key size for you - he had small hands

[Naji]

I do not want to change your piano playing style.
But I´d like to add this:

the english say "to hit a key"
Germans say "ein Taste schlagen"

sounds very agressive ??!
Imagine you´d be a piano key, what would you prefer being hit or touched ?

The French say toucher le piano.
"Toucher" is very smooth and with regard to Chopin who said very often to his pupils "Souplesse avant tout!", maybe try just to "touch" the keys

"Souplesse" is indeed one key to "perfect" virtuosity and musicianship !
gotta always learn from the best :;

[G-Sun]

Is the SampleTekk a contender for the vintage galaxy d?
http://www.sampletekk.com/proddetail...VER-027-FORMAT

or maybe the newr Blakk:
http://www.sampletekk.com/proddetail...LIVER-039-KONT

[Andy Hamm]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

I'm after a well scripted piano, and the Salamander is just pure samples, or I'm I wrong?

I don't know what you mean by scripted I guess. I just load Salamander into my SFZ player, Plouge and I get convincing piano tracks. I rended them to Audio and treat them just like I would any other audio track.

[G-Sun]

Demoed the Black and the vintage D closer.
I do prefer the vintage D.

[Lawrence]

I have to side with Naji here. Sampling has evolved by leaps and bounds and there are really great sampler packages out there...

.... but there is nothing that I know of that sounds "better" sampled than the best sounding real instrument. That goes for every instrument. A lot of it sounds good enough not to matter, but none of it actually sounds better than the best case real instrument being played by a talented player, to me.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Sampling has evolved by leaps and bounds and there are really great sampler packages out there...

And they all miss the immediacy and response of a properly modelled instrument like Pianoteq. It just isn't happening, and never will, because samples are inherently just a bunch of static snapshots (no matter what you do with them), and not a living, breathing, naturally responding instrument.

Originally Posted by Lawrence

.... but there is nothing that I know of that sounds "better" sampled than the best sounding real instrument. That goes for every instrument. A lot of it sounds good enough not to matter, but none of it actually sounds better than the best case real instrument being played by a talented player, to me.

That goes without saying, but that's not the argument here.

[Lawrence]

Oh, sure. I was just saying that a real piano still sounds better.

Even the user reviews say that, that it's "closer" to a real piano, not that it sounds better than a great real piano.

But with clarity of hindsight, my comment was actually out of context because Naji was talking about - digital - pianos and i was talking about real pianos. so, my bad. . I retract that agreement.

[brainwreck]

Modeled acoustic intruments always sound wrong to me. I guess it depends on personal taste and what you're playing, but I thought that Pianoteq sounded lifeless, dull, and plasticy. To you guys who like Pianoteq: what type of music are you using it for?

On digital pianos: I would think that the samples are better matched to the keyboard velocity response out of the box than using a vst with a controller keyboard. I have mostly gotten out of tinkering with keyboard instruments, but I still have an xboard kicking here, for which I never could get the velocity response to feel quite right, for sampled piano, rhodes, or drums. There is more to it than velocity curves, I think. If some of the velocity levels are off with the amplitude of the samples, it will not feel right. If there are holes in the velocity range, or limits in lower and higher velocities for the controller, it will feel off. These are things which curves can't correct.

I think the saying, "Use your own ears", applies just as well here as to any other area of music making.

[hwhalen]

Originally Posted by Andy Hamm

I just load Salamander into my SFZ player, Plouge and I get convincing piano tracks.

I do the same, but now I also add a http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...+stereo+reverb a la Tod, but using Reverate LE and the Samplicity IRs.

Sounds fargin eh to me.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

Modeled acoustic intruments always sound wrong to me. I guess it depends on personal taste and what you're playing, but I thought that Pianoteq sounded lifeless, dull, and plasticy. To you guys who like Pianoteq: what type of music are you using it for?

Everything.

And, did you check the most recently released Pianoteq 5? Or are your comments linked to your previous (so, now deprecated) experiences with it? I think you will be hard-pressed to find it "dull and plasticy". "Lifeless" is an adjective I use for pretty much all sample libraries (because that's what they are, in their very core), but not Pianoteq.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Everything.

And, did you check the most recently released Pianoteq 5? Or are your comments linked to your previous (so, now deprecated) experiences with it? I think you will be hard-pressed to find it "dull and plasticy". "Lifeless" is an adjective I use for pretty much all sample libraries (because that's what they are, in their very core), but not Pianoteq.

Had a listen on Pianoteq's site. I'm hearing what I remember from an older version: lack of lows, highs, detail, character.

[EvilDragon]

Wow. It's anything but all that (and overwhelmingly positive response online seems to be in stark contrast to your above claim, if anything the highs are now much improved, there's no muddiness anymore as everything is brighter just like a piano should be, and the details in the decay is impeccable). Alright, I'll drop it - it's your loss.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Wow. It's anything but all that (and overwhelmingly positive response online seems to be in stark contrast to your above claim, if anything the highs are now much improved, there's no muddiness anymore as everything is brighter just like a piano should be, and the details in the decay is impeccable). Alright, I'll drop it - it's your loss.

We all have different ears and likes, I guess.

G-sun. Give the Salamander setup that Andy Hamm mentioned a try. Not bad at all. The link to the soundfont is in the comments here: http://wootangent.net/2010/05/the-sa...uxsampler-cvs/

[Tod]

Humm, I just went through most of the pianos listed here, playing their demos that were available. I did this with my computer speakers but really and truly my computer speakers aren't that bad and I trust them enough for this task.

Based on the audio demos that were available, I can't say that I heard one piano that sounded bad. Also each one had it's own quality in certain areas.

I think the only way to really discern the differences and qualities from the various libraries is to have a truly qualified piano player using a piano controller with full velocity control from 1 to 127 to play all of them.

I do know that over the last 40 years I've been recording, I've recorded many pianos and was seldom satisfied with the results I got at the time. This includes the many miced pianos along with the many digital pianos using midi. I've had many various midi piano modules over the years that never sounded real but I still used them for the lack of anything else.

The thing is that for the most part, the pianos worked and when I got away from the mixes for a while and stopped thinking about how bad the piano sounded, they didn't sound so bad anymore and just basically fit.

I think in the end it depends on what you're after, are you a connoisseur looking for the greatest of digital pianos. If so maybe this forum, http://www.vi-control.net/forum/inde...718b4d9117664a will guide you to your dream piano.

[Naji]

Imagine your ideal woman.

Physical modeling

Looks like your ideal woman, but it´s a doll - artificial.
You can make her even more perfect without birthmarks or scars, but
artificial.

Samples

Identical twins, but you do not get the original !
So you have to lower you sights.


In other words, a sampled piano plugin has more character, if you want a Steinway, you get the sound of an original Steinway without getting the original itself. Of course one could compare samples to snapshots, but that´s what it is in real, as well, if you hit a piano key, you produce a single snapshot - you can hit a key strong, less strong or smoothly. Physical modeling gives you a Steinway, too, but it´s "only" imitating without adding original parts.
A guitar for instance is different, you can play a note on a guitar in many different ways (percussively, muted, picking, sustained, tremolo, picado, pizzicato, bending, plucking, rasgueo, sliding, slapping, with adventitious noise, with hitting the body of guitar etc.), that´s why a sampled guitar will never be satisfactory as long as played with a keyboard. A piano offers not much more than staccato or legato and from pppp to ffff / pianissimo to fortissimo and sustain(pedal).

Take the twin or the doll !

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Naji

Imagine your ideal woman.

Physical modeling

Looks like your ideal woman, but it´s a doll - artificial.
You can make her even more perfect without without birthmarks or scars, but
artificial.

Samples

Identical twins, but you do not get the original !


In other words, a sampled piano plugin has more character, if you want a Steinway, you get the sound of an original Steinway without getting the original itself. Of course one could compare samples to snapshots, but that´s what it is in real, as well, if you hit a piano key, you produce a single snapshot - you can hit a key strong, less strong or smoothly. Physical modeling gives you a Steinway, too, but it´s "only" imitating without adding original parts.
A guitar for instance is different, you can play a note on a guitar in many different ways (percussively, muted, picking, sustained, pizzicato, bending, sliding, slapping, with adventitious noise, with hitting the body of guitar etc.), that´s why a sampled guitar will never be satisfactory as long as played on a keyboard. A piano offers not much more than staccato or legato and from pppp to ffff / pianissimo to fortissimo and sustain(pedal).

Take the twin or the doll !

So Naji, you have a problem with Physical Modeling. That's fine, it's understandable and I agree to an extent because it's hard to imagine Physical Modeling being able to actually replace samples. However, from what I've heard from Pianoteq it does a pretty good job.

So if you're going to sample a piano, are you going to sample every note? Are you going to sample 127 sample layers for each note or are you going to do just 63?

What is the minimum db level you will record as well as the maximum db level? This of course relates to the velo-layers.

Of course there's also the aspect of what mic positions you're going to use and how many?

In other words, a sampled piano plugin has more character, if you want a Steinway, you get the sound of an original Steinway without getting the original itself.

Humm that's pretty presumptuous, I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

I'm not trying to say you're completely wrong Naji, you make good points but I think there needs to be some balance.

[G-Sun]

I tend to agree with Naji,
and then I value Tods experiences with this a lot.

If you think of this:
A piano has about 200 strings and soundboard and various metal and wood-elements. All this resonates to everything else, depending on the variations of all other factors. So, how do you sample or model all these variations? You can't.
Yet, sampling or modeling can take us quite far. So it looks quite like a woman.

BTW: For using instruments in meditation and similar purposes, it's the overtones that are most important. It reviles the soul of the instrument, and is usually why teenagers fall in love with eg. an acoustical guitar.

[Naji]

[QUOTE=Tod;1363117]So Naji, you have a problem with Physical Modeling. That's fine, it's understandable and I agree to an extent because it's hard to imagine Physical Modeling being able to actually replace samples. However, from what I've heard from Pianoteq it does a pretty good job...




QUOTE]

Even though my examples might not correspond 100% to reality, I´d like to add that I have got a doll and some twins - to have a harem can be exciting, but you are always spoilt for choice

[Naji]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

I tend to agree with Naji,
and then I value Tods experiences with this a lot.

If you think of this:
A piano has about 200 strings and soundboard and various metal and wood-elements. All this resonates to everything else, depending on the variations of all other factors. So, how do you sample or model all these variations? You can't.
Yet, sampling or modeling can take us quite far. So it looks quite like a woman.

BTW: For using instruments in meditation and similar purposes, it's the overtones that are most important. It reviles the soul of the instrument, and is usually why teenagers fall in love with eg. an acoustical guitar.

But as far as women are concered I heard people saying (many times!), that women often fall in love with pianists and nymphos are said to prefer drummers