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Old 03-09-2007, 04:49 AM   #1
Verkinto
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Default Any Ninjam users who also use eJamming? Musigy?

Hello. I'm a journalist working on an article about programs that enable long-distance musical collaboration/recording/performance. I'm going to be writing about three programs in particular:

-Ninjam
-eJamming
-Musigy

(This third one is relatively new... is just in invite-only beta mode right now... cf. musigy.com)

I'm posting today to request feedback from members of the Ninjam community who also use or have used eJamming and/or Musigy. Anything you particularly like or dislike about these competing programs vs. Ninjam? Strengths? Weaknesses? Things you'd like to see on *some* program that hasn't yet seen the light of day?

If you have some experience with either or both eJamming/Musigy and would like to be interviewed for this story (for which I'm working on an assignment from IEEE Spectrum magazine), please drop me a line privately and hopefully we can set something up.

I'm going to be doing interviews for this story the first half of the coming week (March 12-15).

Thank you all.

Mark Anderson
Northampton, Mass.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:28 AM   #2
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Ejamming sucks because it reqires midi or midi enabled instruments
meaning you must use sound fonts available
Musigy is pissing me right off Because they let you download the software then tell you you cant use it unless invited which is bullshit
if i cant even try a demo to see how it works what is going to encourage me in using it in the future i been waiting amonth now with no replay
and as for ninjam
so far the best out there, you can make and configure your own private servers.most of the musicians are friendly and encouraging, and you get to use your setup your sounds.
only flaw...NOT REALTime.though the layered latency does get worked around...Ninjam is just not good for covers but is great for improvisational music
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Old 03-10-2007, 03:37 PM   #3
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oh and midi guitars sounds like shit, its not a natura sound.
oh and best of all NINJAM IS FREE FOR USE AND MODIFICATION
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Old 03-13-2007, 11:53 AM   #4
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Not that I disagree with your love of NINJAM :-) but for full disclosure eJamming are beta testing an audio client. I've requested Beta but have not yet heard back. But you're right - at the moment NINJAM is the best thing out there for near real time playing, and it's free. Thank you Justin, Brennan and Tom for such a great tool!

L8rs

Lefters

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Old 05-31-2007, 08:04 PM   #5
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Yea, Ninjam is free and as of yet still offers the best flexibility and features for jamming (in combination with reaper) so the other guys have got their work cut out for them.

Should be a fascinating 'battle' to watch though
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:56 AM   #6
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Default found the ieee article

Just ran across the IEEE article about ninjam,
ejamming and musigy. Very nice to see
a fair comparison. Would have been cool to have
a picture of justin filling his gas tank in there
though.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5297
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Old 02-09-2008, 08:50 AM   #7
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Thnx for putting that article up tbfx. Of all the three jamming platforms Ninjam is still the best.
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:40 AM   #8
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Thanks for all your post
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:49 PM   #9
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TBH the only program that works long distances is NINJAM, the rest claim so much but all fail or are very limited on user numbers, distance form each other, audio config's and many more problems like just getting connected also most you need to play delayed or have a m8 on the same isp with the isp opposite your houses and the m8 needs to live next door too.

If your writing about Jamming online in the most realistic sense of Realtime then its worth checking more into NINJAM, also http://www.ninbot.com has a lot going on which shows how music can sound on NINJAM when a familiar group are in a server together.

NINJAM also has Auto Records but it's down at the mo, this is a pet project but beats all the serious projects else where.

Until pings reach 5ms from on a round trip around the world then the rest have no chance of succeeding.

NINJAM does have its limitations in some conditions but these can be over come with inspiration minds, which then puts it back into the hands of the players creativity.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:45 AM   #10
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Just some additional thoughts on real-time jamming.

I have monitored this topic since some years now and it seems that companies come and go. E.g. http://www.Jamnow.com has disappeared and on the http://www.Musigy.com homepage I can only find some old links but no software anymore. It seems there is no real market for that at present.

I have tried out onlinejamsessions.com and eJamming by myself. Onlinejamsessions is a joke since you have a strong delay and you do not actually play together. Using Skype would probably give the same results. eJamming did also not satisfy me since you need a lot of bandwidth (client to client connections) and the expected latencies are way beyond my expectations of a "real-time jam". Also, the concept of creating "seats" in a session which are reserved for other musicians is worse than the concept of the open Ninjam servers where everybody can join until the maximum number of allowed Ninjam clients is reached.

I had a lot of great jams on Ninjam in the past and really like the sound quality and that you do not have latency issues if you are used to the "measures". For improvisational music my personal opinion is that there is no better solution available.

Since I also want to play covers, too, my personal attempt for real-time online jamming is an Open Source software I have written which is available at http://llcon.sf.net. On the Ninjam homepage you can read: "[...]perceptual CODEC latency (>20ms), plus typical and theoretical network latency (>40ms)[...]". This is not true anymore since the internet becomes faster and faster (typically 30 ms per 1000 km distance) and since the new http://www.celt-codec.org codec was written, even the audio codec latency has shrink to typically 3 to 9 ms.

If the distance to the server is less than 1000 km, with a good hardware setup you get about 40-45 ms of overall delay with the llcon software. My personal delay tolerance is: <20 ms is perfect, <40 ms is quite good even for playing drums and >60 ms is not tolerable. This concludes that distances >1000 km from the server do not work which makes word-wide real-time jams impossible.

My conclusion: Commercial solutions for real-time jamming do not provide good solutions right now. Ninjam is great for quickly finding great musicians to play improvisiational music with since there is already a large community and it works world-wide. llcon is a free alternative for true real-time jamming but with the limitation that you require a good hardware setup and you have to be located close to the server.
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:24 PM   #11
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Default Facts about eJamming

Well not sure how much I can add to a forum named "COCKOS" but let me try..

Ejamming is a peer to peer service allowing up to 4 remote players to Jam Live or record track by track in sync live and in real time.

Quote from "http://llcon.sf.net"
"There is one server running the llcon server software which collects the audio data from each llcon client software, mixes the audio data and sends the mix back to each client"

NOTE this is exactly how the Service Jamnow is based. Note: Jamnow is out of business. (Because this method doesnt work well)

First using a server in between audio clients produces additional latency and in fact is far more severe the further the two remote players are from each other and the server.
Ejamming has no server in between and is optimized for the lowest common latency between all players
(up to 4)

Quote #2
The minimum internet connection speed at each client must be 256 kbps upstream and 1 Mbit downstream.
The http://llcon.sf.net" system has a higher bandwidth requirement than eJamming.

Expected latency for US based sessions is less than 60 mS and in when the distance is less than 1000 mil you can expect less than 32 mS

The previous post states that the system uses a reserved seat method.
While this is one function each leader of a session may reserve a seat for specific players or create open seats for anyone to join. Anyone signed up for ejamming or using a 30 day demo may create and lead a session keep open seats or reserved seats.

Ejamming uses a min bandwidth of 275 kbps for a 2 player session, 475 kbps
for a 3 player session and 675 for a 4 person session. There is also an option for lower bandwidth (lower sound quality) as well to help out with
users who are on lesser Bandwidth systems.

The Statement "<40 ms is quite good even for playing drums and >60 ms is not tolerable" indicates this user has never really used eJamming with anyone in the US or was not sure of what to expect.

If you can play with a drummer or other musician at 40 mS latency delay
then playing at 60 mS should be tolerable and good enough to jam.

I personally play with a user in Germany everyday and we have a latency delay of 120 mS which produces a delay (depending on where the positional master/time/tempo master is) of 1/8 note at 120 bpm. This works because one side streams the beat and say keyboards and the response comes back at a consistent rate and the time master is also consistent and is not affected by the pull of the latency (drum machine) you can achieve global jams that are very musical and enjoyable.

Once you have your ideas with the other players eJamming provides a 16 track 24 bit 48k multitrack DAW that allows for each player to record each track in perfect sync while the others "listen" similar to everyone being in the same studio while each player overdubs their parts. What is so incredible is that eJamming software actually move's the time line on each players set of tracks to achieve perfect sync experience for all in the session. Audio is recorded locally for the recorded track and a "thinned version is sent to the remote players. After the session each player can exchange the 24 bit files so further mixing and editing may be performed.

The best I have personally experienced on eJamming was 24 mS 500 miles away. That produced results that was like "being in the same room"

NOTE Ejamming never delays your own instrument or down samples the audio
so you always "feel" like your performing under optimal conditions even when you are 10,000 miles away.

Ejamming requiring MIDI is from eJamming Studio a product that released in 2006. Currently eJamming audiio is an AUDIO/MIDI Connectivity software compatible on MAC and Windows.

UPDATE Ejamming inc is releasing eJamming 2.1 in January 2010 at the NAMM show. This release will feature entirely new functionality including the ability to connect all of your DAW and third party audio/MIDI products directly into and out of eJamming so your personal and professional studio has now gone global.

I have tried, Musigy, NINJAM, Onlinejamsession.com, Soundwr project,
tin cans, spliced phone lines and eJamming is by far the most complete solution available.

Please dont take my word for it. I invite you to go and try eJamming for 30 days FREE www.ejamming.com. I will join you for a Jam anytime (PST in the evenings) and we can see how well it works. Feeling is beliving

Last edited by REALTIME; 12-25-2009 at 01:36 PM. Reason: UPDATE
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:19 AM   #12
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This is a old thread. :S

With Ejamming I just got fed up with the over exaggerated emails that beefed up all its features, then I'd go try the update and only extra things seemed to be more bugs or options taking out.
Then its totally conditional on ping's so it's only really a part collaboration software as not all can collaborate.

If and when pings one day become low enough then NINJAM is already geared up for it, it would only need increase voice sampled quality then it could handle realtime low pings and latency delayed higher pings, and even together like it's able to with voice atm.
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Old 12-27-2009, 07:55 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REALTIME View Post
First using a server in between audio clients produces additional latency and in fact is far more severe the further the two remote players are from each other and the server
For the case that the server is located in the middle of two players, the latency for peer-to-peer or client-server is the same. In all other cases, you could achieve a lower latency with peer-to-peer in case of two players. The big advantage of client-server is that you do not need to care about synchronization and the bandwidth requirement at the client is lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REALTIME View Post
The minimum internet connection speed at each client must be 256 kbps upstream and 1 Mbit downstream.
The http://llcon.sf.net" system has a higher bandwidth requirement than eJamming.
The Wiki requires some updates. Since the introduction of the CELT codec, you can jam with up to 6 musicians and only require approx. 130 kbps up/down stream at the client (of course, the data rate at the server is higher).

Quote:
Originally Posted by REALTIME View Post
The best I have personally experienced on eJamming was 24 mS 500 miles away. That produced results that was like "being in the same room"
Are you talking about ping time or overall delay? To me it sounds more like a ping time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REALTIME View Post
NOTE Ejamming never delays your own instrument or down samples the audio so you always "feel" like your performing under optimal conditions even when you are 10,000 miles away.
How can you play together if this is the case? I thought eJamming was using some patented synchronization method, leading to a delay of the own instrument.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:45 PM   #14
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Well.. I think it's hard to compensate for a (+20ms) delay. I feel like the delay is controlling the music because I need to experiment a lot to make things fit.
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Old 01-01-2010, 03:53 AM   #15
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In my experience eJamming can work really well but has three main problems:

1. Setting up correctly can be an ordeal for non-technical people

2. The service can still be buggy and unreliable at times

3. Not many people use it at the moment

I don't see any issues there that can't be overcome with a little cash and good management.

I accept that bandwidth requirements are too high for some people (especially in remote areas) but the world is moving on and my standard domestic package now gives me more than enough.

Judge the latency for yourself at http://www.cartmania.org.uk/ejamming/

These recordings made on eJamming in 2009 are all unrehearsed jams between America and Europe (in one case America-Europe-Australia) - no click tracks, no playing to "measures", everyone playing at the same time.

eJamming is not perfect but if you are set up right and have sufficient bandwidth it can be great fun - and there is nothing else available that comes close as far as I can see (sorry NinJam fans).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyMc View Post
With Ejamming I just got fed up with the over exaggerated emails
Fair point (and their website sucks too).

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Old 01-02-2010, 01:01 AM   #16
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I think I played with you in it before Cartman, I think u helped me out on a couple of tips to get round some then bugs.
When it worked it was enjoyable but at the time the bugs, disconnections and bandwidth problems were a bit of a nightmare.
Maybe them Emails lead a person to expect too much then when ya get there they deliver no where near how the emails made it sound.
They sort of shoot themselves in the foot with them mails.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:17 AM   #17
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Default Online Jam Sessions Is awesome!

The only time anyone experiences lag is when they are not familiar with their own personal pc settings and this goes for all online Jammming. This is the problem with most in this new phase of music worldwide. many musicians are impatient and not willing to give things a chance. If this is the case, why even bother trying these jam sites out?
OJS (Online Jam Sessions) is the easiest to be up and jamming in no time that you will find and works awesome with great sound quality and not to mention is the best site for musicians to promote them self on as well. Oh and they have video too where the others don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by corrados View Post
Just some additional thoughts on real-time jamming.

I have monitored this topic since some years now and it seems that companies come and go. E.g. http://www.Jamnow.com has disappeared and on the http://www.Musigy.com homepage I can only find some old links but no software anymore. It seems there is no real market for that at present.

I have tried out onlinejamsessions.com and eJamming by myself. Onlinejamsessions is a joke since you have a strong delay and you do not actually play together. Using Skype would probably give the same results. eJamming did also not satisfy me since you need a lot of bandwidth (client to client connections) and the expected latencies are way beyond my expectations of a "real-time jam". Also, the concept of creating "seats" in a session which are reserved for other musicians is worse than the concept of the open Ninjam servers where everybody can join until the maximum number of allowed Ninjam clients is reached.

I had a lot of great jams on Ninjam in the past and really like the sound quality and that you do not have latency issues if you are used to the "measures". For improvisational music my personal opinion is that there is no better solution available.

Since I also want to play covers, too, my personal attempt for real-time online jamming is an Open Source software I have written which is available at http://llcon.sf.net. On the Ninjam homepage you can read: "[...]perceptual CODEC latency (>20ms), plus typical and theoretical network latency (>40ms)[...]". This is not true anymore since the internet becomes faster and faster (typically 30 ms per 1000 km distance) and since the new http://www.celt-codec.org codec was written, even the audio codec latency has shrink to typically 3 to 9 ms.

If the distance to the server is less than 1000 km, with a good hardware setup you get about 40-45 ms of overall delay with the llcon software. My personal delay tolerance is: <20 ms is perfect, <40 ms is quite good even for playing drums and >60 ms is not tolerable. This concludes that distances >1000 km from the server do not work which makes word-wide real-time jams impossible.

My conclusion: Commercial solutions for real-time jamming do not provide good solutions right now. Ninjam is great for quickly finding great musicians to play improvisiational music with since there is already a large community and it works world-wide. llcon is a free alternative for true real-time jamming but with the limitation that you require a good hardware setup and you have to be located close to the server.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:24 AM   #18
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Default Check out the unrehersed jams at OJS

Online Jam Sessions has an rss feed you can subscribe to of all the live jams that were recorded and posed. some jams as many as 7 people in at one time. some not perfect may display little lag, but this is a personal setting on that individuals pc. Others are right on the money. Go see for yourself at: http://onlinejamsessions.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartman View Post
In my experience eJamming can work really well but has three main problems:

1. Setting up correctly can be an ordeal for non-technical people

2. The service can still be buggy and unreliable at times

3. Not many people use it at the moment

I don't see any issues there that can't be overcome with a little cash and good management.

I accept that bandwidth requirements are too high for some people (especially in remote areas) but the world is moving on and my standard domestic package now gives me more than enough.

Judge the latency for yourself at http://www.cartmania.org.uk/ejamming/

These recordings made on eJamming in 2009 are all unrehearsed jams between America and Europe (in one case America-Europe-Australia) - no click tracks, no playing to "measures", everyone playing at the same time.

eJamming is not perfect but if you are set up right and have sufficient bandwidth it can be great fun - and there is nothing else available that comes close as far as I can see (sorry NinJam fans).



Fair point (and their website sucks too).

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Old 03-24-2010, 12:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojsjammin View Post
The only time anyone experiences lag is when they are not familiar with their own personal pc settings and this goes for all online Jammming. This is the problem with most in this new phase of music worldwide. many musicians are impatient and not willing to give things a chance. If this is the case, why even bother trying these jam sites out?
OJS (Online Jam Sessions) is the easiest to be up and jamming in no time that you will find and works awesome with great sound quality and not to mention is the best site for musicians to promote them self on as well. Oh and they have video too where the others don't.
So, according to you, latency is only a result of the individual's particular computer's settings? It has nothing to do with bandwidth, data packets or the limits of most current internet connections?

Hmmmm... I don't know guy, it sounds an awful lot like you just want people to use your website. And pay the $50 a year fee no less. Does that fee come with the secret to solving the internet's latency issue? lol

None of these sites have truly overcome latency yet. You can "jam" pretty well and that can be lots of fun, but forget about doing covers and such because latency is still there to some degree, from seemingly non-existent to unbearable. As of now, eJamming is on top of the list, mainly because of their partnering with Fender recently, with Ninjam following close behind. Onine Jam Sessions is a distant third many haven't even heard of and in reality shouldn't even be compared to the other two. It's really just a 'social networking site' using a community video chat room that can be found on a dozen other sites for FREE.

Apples to apples, you have a choice between eJamming and Ninjam and neither are perfect, but at least Ninjam is free and a lot easier to setup. If you want to throw an orange into the mix, Online Jam Sessions can work as well, but you'd be better off using one of the free social networking sites you can find here - http://onlinejamsessions.webnode.com
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:20 PM   #20
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I have to agree with some that it's raping many other things and passing it off as it's own for a fee.
I did have a message somewhere from OJS saying about free Jamming time, which makes me think NINJAM is being charged for, which if it was, wouldn't be cool.

Here on our site u can do all that for free and some of its built in, and it looks nicer too. imo

http://ninjamers.ning.com

Don't think it's really right to charge a fee for using FREE stuff from other sites, maybe even illegal in some places.

It just feels like I received another spam in my email trying to get my cash for nothing in return.

But there has to be a honest way to pay for your site and the work you put in, maybe some ads?

Mind you look what benefits you get. :S

Quote:
Originally Posted by OJS Pricing
Fee's cover more than just the bandwidth to run this site. here are a few things it also helps with:

1. There are back office controls (operations) you don't see taking place all the time

2. 24/7 tech support on site all the time
<

3. Always adding new uniqueness to OJS

4. Connecting you with awesome musicians from around the World that you would have never met otherwise.

5. You have a site here that is the Originator of the whole concept. OJS Paved the way and the more people that are here jamming, the more bandwidth is run through here.

6. On site Live Recording for any member

7. KOJS RADIO which is available to all registered members

8. OJS runs 3 servers so that nothing will interfere with the Jam Room. The Jam Room is on a server all it's own.

9. Promotion.... Lots and lots of promotion is going on here and that is not an easy task.



We can go on with the list but why? The site displays all that you get and is is definately awesome.



Choose your level of entry:

click here
It says 5. You have a site here that is the Originator of the whole concept.

So NINJAM creators of that wonderful NINJAM software stole the idea from you, forcing you to have to use there software and charge people a fee for it?
Well the cheek of it!

Anyway the whole thing reminds me of an episode of Fonjacker from UK Channel 4, youtube it.
There's a scene where someone is selling internet providings., Providings you with internet.
You could have a new sales line, "We are the Originators of Internet Providings."
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyMc View Post
Anyway the whole thing reminds me of an episode of Fonjacker from UK Channel 4, youtube it.
There's a scene where someone is selling internet providings., Providings you with internet.
You could have a new sales line, "We are the Originators of Internet Providings."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6yx3lzw0jY

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Old 04-03-2010, 12:41 PM   #22
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Amusing to see NinJam's competitors keeping this old thread alive.

NinJam has the advantages of zero cost, easy setup, low system and bandwidth requirements and a helpful user forum. All good stuff, but playing to "measures" is too restrictive for me.

OnlineJamSessions, whenever I have looked at it, has always said "0 users online", which does not encourage further investigation (and reports from those who have tried it all say the latency is generally unbearable}.

eJamming also remains something of a ghost town, despite the Fender promotion. The latest version has even higher system and bandwidth requirements, the promised DAW support never materialised, the GUI is butt-ugly and user-unfriendly and the service is buggy as hell.

But - within certain limitations - you certainly can make good music on eJamming, and despite its obvious problems I will be resurrecting live broadcasts from my eJamming session for a short season starting on Easter Sunday 2010.

http://www.cartmania.org.uk/ejamming/ - Sundays in April 2010 - 4pm EST, 1pm PST, 9pm UK

Tune in free - no download or signup required unless you want to play in the session.

Any feedback or comments received, positive or negative, will be read out live on air.

I will even patch in a NinJam session so we can all "play live together" if you want.

The Easter Sunday broadcast is dedicated to RockinMichelle, a well-known and much-loved member of all the online jamming communities, an excellent guitarist and a pioneering jamcaster, who died this week.

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Old 04-06-2010, 05:05 PM   #23
AndyMc
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Yes, I thought I recognised the name, from Ejamming I met you right? you helped me get setup, well u helped me how it should be but it didn't want to work. I remember at the time having internet providings from the originator of internet providings and I don't think them providings were providing the providings I needed.

I will attend one providing you do not providings me with internet for free at $57 for first 4 months and $67 after for my free internet providings.
I know you will be the originator of the providings but I do not want the providings of the free internet at $57 per month and $67 after.

Cool we got that sorted, cya there providings I can make it. :P


Johnny can u believe it, I can't watch that link u posted as its outside the UK lol, but I can watch it on 4OD on youtube over here. Oo I'll find a UK and Europe link for it.
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Old 08-09-2010, 04:30 PM   #24
Cartman
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Default Facts about eJamming

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyMc View Post
They sort of shoot themselves in the foot with them mails
I posted above that I would be dedicating my Easter Sunday broadcast to a recently deceased friend.

Just before the show I got an eJamming email titled "We're Honoring RockinMichelle with a Memorial Concert Today" - but nobody from eJamming spoke to me about it, there was no "Memorial Concert" and eJamming Inc had no involvement in the event.

No possibility of an honest mistake - this was outright fabrication, trying to capitalise on a young woman's death.

Revolting.

But they coded their link wrong in the email and everyone who clicked it got a 404 Not Found.

With management like that it is no surprise that eJamming remains a failure.

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Old 08-14-2010, 02:41 PM   #25
AndyMc
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Yeah its not good m8, sorry for the loss of ya friend, that sucks and to then have someone try pull a scam off of it is like you said, revolting!

This is how always there emails came across, total fabrication and no end result to there claims which led me to wonder what there goal was.

I smelt a rat so kept clear of it until I see or was shown different.
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