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Old 11-13-2017, 08:45 PM   #1
Archimedes
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Default Dangerous Bug or 'Feature' - Seriously Dangerous

See the attached GIF

(1) Open a blank project
(2) Create a track of anything
(3) Create a "volume" envelope
(4) Create points on that envelope
(5) Right click a point and select "Set Point Value"
(6) Delete whatever value appears in the text box
(7) The point will jump to 0.0 dB, even though you have not entered a value and have not pressed or clicked "OK"

If you are changing a point that is, say -30 dB, and you attempt to do the above while the track is playing, and are wearing headphones or earbuds, THIS COULD CAUSE SERIOUS HEARING DAMAGE. The volume will jump from the current value to 0.0 dB before you enter a value and press OK.

So, this is not something I think Cockos/Reaper should think is acceptable.
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File Type: gif NotOkay.gif (15.4 KB, 104 views)
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Last edited by Archimedes; 11-13-2017 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:48 PM   #2
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"Dangerous" Obviously you forgot "(8) all audio files in the project are deleted."

No number equals Zero. IMHO a rather obvious and usual behavior. Do you suggest it better should be "no change" or "Not accepted (-> don't leave the edit mode) ?

-Michael
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:22 AM   #3
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Yeah, it is not something you would want to happen like that, apart from the possibility of hearing or trouser damage.

I believe you can highlight rather than delete what appears in the text box and over-write but I am not sure if it increases/decreases AS you input numbers- not at my machine at the moment so cant check - just dont forget the minus sign...
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:40 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
"Dangerous" Obviously you forgot "(8) all audio files in the project are deleted."

No number equals Zero. IMHO a rather obvious and usual behavior. Do you suggest it better should be "no change" or "Not accepted (-> don't leave the edit mode) ?

-Michael
Whatever the user intends to enter should not be applied until clicking "ok".
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
Whatever the user intends to enter should not be applied until clicking "ok".
There's an option in Preferences->General->Keyboard/Multitouch to commit changes to some edit fields after 1 second of no typing, but looks like entering envelope point values is one of the edit fields that doesn't follow this setting...
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:34 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertP View Post
Yeah, it is not something you would want to happen like that, apart from the possibility of hearing or trouser damage.

I believe you can highlight rather than delete what appears in the text box and over-write but I am not sure if it increases/decreases AS you input numbers- not at my machine at the moment so cant check - just dont forget the minus sign...
Yes, but any activity in that box causes the envelope point to change whether you hit "OK", or press an Enter key, etc.

This has happened to me, while wearing open-back cans. Pisses me off.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
There's an option in Preferences->General->Keyboard/Multitouch to commit changes to some edit fields after 1 second of no typing, but looks like entering envelope point values is one of the edit fields that doesn't follow this setting...
Really quite dangerous Ed. Obviously not a big deal when the track is stopped or paused - but if I'm trying to bring up a faint Foley effect, like a gun shot or cinematic hit, I routinely hand-enter values rather than try to finesse a slider or drag the point. Next thing you know, Bang! in my ears! Yikes. Really toasts my roast.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
Whatever the user intends to enter should not be applied until clicking "ok".
Hi Archimedes. You'd better set this in Prefs/Audio/Mute/Solo



By security, you're right.

Bye
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:46 AM   #9
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Next time try using shift+drag the point instead of typing a value, perhaps? I mean, I know typing in can be faster, but if safety is concerned, it's a workaround that's available.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeranx View Post
Hi Archimedes. You'd better set this in Prefs/Audio/Mute/Solo

By security, you're right.

Bye
Yep, I have that set. A blast from -30 db to even 0.0 dB though is painful - trust me - I've experienced that.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Next time try using shift+drag the point instead of typing a value, perhaps? I mean, I know typing in can be faster, but if safety is concerned, it's a workaround that's available.
Yep. Now I just stop the track, loop around the around the area I'm trying to adjust, etc. But, that's a hack. Why have an "OK" button in this case? Doesn't make sense.

Anyway, thanks! (and thanks for everything you do in the pre forum - very impressive!)
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archimedes View Post
Yep, I have that set. A blast from -30 db to even 0.0 dB though is painful - trust me - I've experienced that.
Yeah Archi, I agree with that..
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:32 PM   #13
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I think the logic should be

If (playing) {commit if no input after 1 sec = false} else {commit if no input after 1 sec = as specified by user}
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Old 12-05-2017, 07:30 PM   #14
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BUMP - y'all need to fix this
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:11 PM   #15
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This is similar to a problem I reported.
On the odd track after just say on volume automation you may
open up drag the volume down to -12 the close the automation
the value unseen will have shifted back up to 0.9 again.
Another one is the default volume value may be set at 0.0db but
my volume track shows +.65 when I open it up.
This is why every time I alter my volumes now for the first time I put a "false fret" point in early at the start of the track which does not shift.
When you do a lot of volume editing and rendering this is not a nice thing to happen when you find out it has occurred you have to go back to the start again,,, all those moves.

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Old 12-13-2017, 11:13 AM   #16
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Default Still exists in 5.70 release

Not sure why this is difficult to address, or unimportant.
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File Type: gif Bug remains in 5_7.gif (28.9 KB, 25 views)
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:17 PM   #17
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why would you expect it to be fixed immediately?

You've been using reaper since 2011 and just noticed the problem 30 days ago. If was a common problem we'd see more complaints.

I don't mean any offense. I think it's important, in fact I ran into it over the weekend.

We have to be patient with bug reports. The devs have a long list of things they WANT to work on and a long list of things they NEED to work on.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
why would you expect it to be fixed immediately?

You've been using reaper since 2011 and just noticed the problem 30 days ago. If was a common problem we'd see more complaints.

I don't mean any offense. I think it's important, in fact I ran into it over the weekend.

We have to be patient with bug reports. The devs have a long list of things they WANT to work on and a long list of things they NEED to work on.
Yes, I realize all of that. But I've only recently started mixing using in-ear cans, and it's now a matter of safety for those who might happen upon this. I think it's in Cockos' best interests to make sure that any of their users don't blast their ears out, hire a lawyer, sue Cockos, and destroy this product for the rest of us. It's a simple fix. They should fix it. Not because I want it, but in order to mitigate any liability on their part.

I'm not agitating about any of the (many) suggestions I've made. But this one - yes. I'm agitating, and will continue to agitate until it's fixed.

Don't assume everyone in this forum is naive about litigation.
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:59 PM   #19
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That case wouldn't hold in court at all. Read the licensing terms.


"5. Disclaimer of Warranties: Cockos does not warrant that the Software is error free. Cockos offers the Software “as is” and “with all faults” and by using the Software, you accept it “as is” and “with all faults”. Cockos disclaims all other warranties, either express or implied, including but not limited to implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. Should the Software prove defective, you assume the entire cost of all necessary servicing, repair or correction. Some jurisdictions may not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, so the above disclaimers may not apply to you."

"7. Limitations on Liability: To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, Cockos shall not be liable for any special, incidental, indirect, or consequential damages whatsoever, (including, but not limited to, damages for loss of profits or loss of confidential or other information, for business interruption, for personal injury, for loss of privacy, for failure to meet any duty including of good faith or of reasonable care, for negligence, and for any other pecuniary or other loss whatsoever), arising out of or in any way related to the use or inability to use the Software, the provision of or failure to provide support services, or otherwise under or in connection with any provision of this EULA, even in event of fault, tort (including negligence), strict liability, breach of contract or breach of warranty of Cockos, and even if Cockos has been advised of the possibility of such damages. In any case, Cockos’ entire liability under the provisions of this EULA or the applicable law shall be limited to the amount paid by you for the Software. Some jurisdictions may not allow the exclusion of consequential damages, so the above limitations and exclusions may not apply to you. This Agreement sets forth Cockos’ entire liability and your exclusive remedy with respect to the Software."
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Yep, I have that set. A blast from -30 db to even 0.0 dB though is painful - trust me - I've experienced that.
There is no way I would ever work in such a way where 0 dB is ear damaging and/or if so, not without some type of protection such as a protection limiter in the chain, period. I'm not even going to comment on the liability thing because it is so silly; you can mitigate this 'danger' on your own, do that.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:18 PM   #21
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Well, that's all well and good.

Suit yourselves.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That case wouldn't hold in court at all. Read the licensing terms.


"5. Disclaimer of Warranties: Cockos does not warrant that the Software is error free. Cockos offers the Software “as is” and “with all faults” and by using the Software, you accept it “as is” and “with all faults”. Cockos disclaims all other warranties, either express or implied, including but not limited to implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. Should the Software prove defective, you assume the entire cost of all necessary servicing, repair or correction. Some jurisdictions may not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, so the above disclaimers may not apply to you."

"7. Limitations on Liability: To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, Cockos shall not be liable for any special, incidental, indirect, or consequential damages whatsoever, (including, but not limited to, damages for loss of profits or loss of confidential or other information, for business interruption, for personal injury, for loss of privacy, for failure to meet any duty including of good faith or of reasonable care, for negligence, and for any other pecuniary or other loss whatsoever), arising out of or in any way related to the use or inability to use the Software, the provision of or failure to provide support services, or otherwise under or in connection with any provision of this EULA, even in event of fault, tort (including negligence), strict liability, breach of contract or breach of warranty of Cockos, and even if Cockos has been advised of the possibility of such damages. In any case, Cockos’ entire liability under the provisions of this EULA or the applicable law shall be limited to the amount paid by you for the Software. Some jurisdictions may not allow the exclusion of consequential damages, so the above limitations and exclusions may not apply to you. This Agreement sets forth Cockos’ entire liability and your exclusive remedy with respect to the Software."
See,

Kalisch-Jarcho, Inc. v. New York (N.Y. 1983)
City of Santa Barbara v. Superior Court, 41 Cal. 4th 747, 62... (2007)
Kalisch, Inv., v. New York, supra (recloess disregard; intent to harm);
Metropolitan Life Ins. Co v. Noble Lowndes International, Inc. (N.Y. 1994)
Banc of America Securities v. Solow Building Co. (2007)
Cal. Civil Code para 1668; Kleinwort Benson N. Am.,Inc v Quantum Fin Servs., Inc (1996)
Zircon Co. v. Graphik Dimensions, Inc (1996)
UCC para 2-719(3)
Farnham v. Superior Court, 60 Cal. App. 4th 69 (1997)
La. Civ. Code Ann art. 2004;
Valhal Corp v. Sullivan Associates, Inc., (3rd Cir. 1995)

I could go on. But, y'all do whatever you want. I hope some teen or minor out there who doesn't understand what they are agreeing to, and doesn't "know better" to mitigate this themselves, doesn't get injured.
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:45 PM   #23
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Somebody invented a way to trigger a nuclear reaction.

As a result people were killed by nuclear bombs.

Do you want to hold him liable ?

Somebody created some software, ....

-Michael
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Old 12-14-2017, 02:59 AM   #24
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IANAL.

A license works both ways.

The inventor of the nuclear process had no license with the victims. He wasn't the one who dropped the bomb, or even ordered it. And it was wartime. Not a comparable situation, imho.
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