Old 09-30-2016, 02:27 PM   #1
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Default Better Parameter Modulation

Hi



I use parameter modulation a lot.
Here is my request :

Add Math and logic operators (something like formula controller in FL studio).
Add Proper values 1/2 1/4t 1/8d instead of float values for LFO sync rate.
Add Smooth option (square shape becomes trapezoid and so on).
Add Swing/Shuffle slider for the lfo in synced mode.
Add More shapes for LFO, Import and save shapes(wavetable).
Add Delay.
Add Envelope + Trigger mode.
Add Draw LFO option.
Add Step LFO.
Add Equalizer/Filter for sidechain signal input.

Sample accurate parameter modulation.
Search filter for modulated parameters in track envelopes window.
Show only modulated parameter envelopes.
Parameter modulation for Track vol pan send.
Ability to modulate LFO parameters (envelopes lane).
Parameter modulation more just 1 channel limitation.
Parameter modulation manager(display all PMs on all tracks).

Big thanks team.
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Last edited by Outboarder; 12-24-2016 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 10-03-2016, 03:12 AM   #2
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Parameter modulation for Track vol pan send
since the grouping volume in reverse not working properly(suddenly jumps).

It's useful to link volume pan send to other tracks with more control over the ranges.
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Old 10-04-2016, 02:41 AM   #3
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Parameter modulation more just 1 channel limitation! Like limitless sidechain!
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Old 10-09-2016, 05:26 AM   #4
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nice thread man !

also a a swing/shuffle slider for the lfo in synced mode.

eq for sidechained signal. (at least highpass/lowpass but better yet a reaeq) .

especially usefull for eq ducking, i now use 3 band splitter, choose my frquenzy there, and only send that middle frequenzys to the sidechain for eq-ducking but ,
now think you wanna duck at 300 hz at 800 and 2000 , you need multiple splitters multiple sidechains and so on ..
would be more streamlined with just a native eq for the sidechained parameter modulator. 1 sidechain could drive it all .

please realize this is already a most powerfull tool for people working with synthesizers, with all the additions by , which´s underlying math is already embedded in reaper , it becomes every electronic producers dream.

Last edited by Ulf3000; 10-09-2016 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 10-09-2016, 09:27 AM   #5
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All good stuff, +1
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Old 10-09-2016, 06:36 PM   #6
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+1 to a lot of this, the modulation system is a great tool in Reaper that is far too hidden
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Old 10-10-2016, 03:49 PM   #7
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Yes to most of this, but FIRST we need PM to actually be sample accurate rather than stairs-stepped at the buffer rate!!!
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Old 10-11-2016, 12:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Yes to most of this, but FIRST we need PM to actually be sample accurate rather than stairs-stepped at the buffer rate!!!
when I looked at this thread I thought wow this will be great, but your point is right - what a shame it is so crudely implemented as to be useless (to me anyway). Maybe it has been abandoned and another mechanism is planned ot available at a finer grain

Last edited by woggle; 10-11-2016 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 10-11-2016, 05:50 AM   #9
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This is impressive.
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:14 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woggle View Post
when I looked at this thread I thought wow this will be great, but your point is right - what a shame it is so crudely implemented as to be useless (to me anyway). Maybe it has been abandoned and another mechanism is planned ot available at a finer grain
It's not completely useless. For most things, it actually works fine and you'd probably never know the difference as long as your buffers aren't real long. It is limited, though.

Another thing I'd like to see is an actual un-gated, un-rectified, linear audio follower. It works reasonably well ATM for what it's intended - extracting the basic envelope from a "real" audio signal - but if you try to run an LFO in there (instead of using the pm lfo) it gets all distorted and wonky. With this feature alone, many of the options above are almost unnecessary because you could just use the audio engine to mix oscillators and/or use any oscillator plugin you can find and have something very much like a universal CV system.
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:33 AM   #11
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How about a global LFO-generator ?
(like 12 slots)
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:57 AM   #12
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Can you use the audio from a track to modulate the volume fader of another mixer channel? I've been able to modulate the output of a plugin on a track with audio from another. Haven't figured out how to do the mixer faders yet. I notice there's a .gif in a post above. Any clues?

ns
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Old 10-11-2016, 10:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
How about a global LFO-generator ?
(like 12 slots)
How about an LFO on an audio track that you can route wherever you want, mix with others, and basically manipulate like any other signal? Control any and all the parameters you want.

@nightscope - No. PM can really only affect plugin parameters. Luckily, there are plugins for volume and pan that can accomplish about the same thing while leaving the mixer controls free to trim as necessary.
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Old 10-11-2016, 04:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
It's not completely useless. For most things, it actually works fine and you'd probably never know the difference as long as your buffers aren't real long. It is limited, though.

Another thing I'd like to see is an actual un-gated, un-rectified, linear audio follower. It works reasonably well ATM for what it's intended - extracting the basic envelope from a "real" audio signal - but if you try to run an LFO in there (instead of using the pm lfo) it gets all distorted and wonky. With this feature alone, many of the options above are almost unnecessary because you could just use the audio engine to mix oscillators and/or use any oscillator plugin you can find and have something very much like a universal CV system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
How about a global LFO-generator ?
(like 12 slots)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
How about an LFO on an audio track that you can route wherever you want, mix with others, and basically manipulate like any other signal? Control any and all the parameters you want.

@nightscope - No. PM can really only affect plugin parameters. Luckily, there are plugins for volume and pan that can accomplish about the same thing while leaving the mixer controls free to trim as necessary.


then you can just use a midi-oscillator vst,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XerwDse72U
http://www.cableguys.com/midi-shaper.html
https://www.xferrecords.com/products/lfotool
http://www.codefn42.com/ccstepper/index.html

the point is having a functional toolbox under one hood swissarmeeknife style without having to combine vsts, sends, midichannel, midirouters and midilearns

Last edited by Ulf3000; 10-11-2016 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 10-11-2016, 07:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
@nightscope - No. PM can really only affect plugin parameters. Luckily, there are plugins for volume and pan that can accomplish about the same thing while leaving the mixer controls free to trim as necessary.
Cheers, ash,

Very helpful, so I won't be hunting trying to get something going which ain't in there. Your comments regarding trim plugs is a monster biggie for me, as I use rather old VCA system called Faderworks. It is old but very versatile and works great with Reaper. Gives VCA control at Global level, Group[32] level & any Instance in Group level. Plus I can get at all it's faders with me MCU faders. Plus Global, Group and Instance Mute, Solo and Bypass. Automation, like any plugin, and inverse fades between Groups, if you want.

At the moment I have just been PM'ing the output from the last FX insert plugin on a track for starters. I never thought of PM'ing Faderworks. Duh. This is so very cool as I can PM any track or Group of tracks' volume level, or invert them, with total abandon. Plus, as you say, trim with the mixer fader as required.

Yahoo!!! Tally ho, chaps. I'm goin' in.

ns
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Old 10-12-2016, 03:52 AM   #16
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We will never see changes like this in Modulation. Things like this was requested so many times. Just relax folks...
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Old 10-12-2016, 04:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyMarchenko View Post
We will never see changes like this in Modulation. Things like this was requested so many times. Just relax folks...
good to know !

i hope maybe with the recent shift in focus on midi theyll re-evaluate the situation.
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Old 10-12-2016, 09:20 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulf3000 View Post
then you can just use a midi-oscillator vst,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XerwDse72U
http://www.cableguys.com/midi-shaper.html
https://www.xferrecords.com/products/lfotool
http://www.codefn42.com/ccstepper/index.html

the point is having a functional toolbox under one hood swissarmeeknife style without having to combine vsts, sends, midichannel, midirouters and midilearns
MIDI has its own problems. Resolution for one. Also, it's not anywhere near as easy to mix as audio is.

I've got a JS plug now that just sets a slider to the value of the current audio sample. That slider can then be linked to any parameter on the same track, and it works as well as it can without sample accurate PM, but it would be nice if that extra plugin wasn't needed.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:40 AM   #19
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Yes please
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Old 10-14-2016, 04:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
MIDI has its own problems. Resolution for one. Also, it's not anywhere near as easy to mix as audio is.

I've got a JS plug now that just sets a slider to the value of the current audio sample. That slider can then be linked to any parameter on the same track, and it works as well as it can without sample accurate PM, but it would be nice if that extra plugin wasn't needed.
mind posting the plugin so people know what you mean ?

till now i think midi was enough to drive any instrument or efect plugin .. why is the sample accuracy important ? becasue of attack times and transients?
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Old 10-14-2016, 09:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulf3000 View Post
mind posting the plugin so people know what you mean ?
Write it yourself. slider1=spl0


Quote:
till now i think midi was enough to drive any instrument or efect plugin .. why is the sample accuracy important ? becasue of attack times and transients?
For a number of reasons, really. Perhaps most important because PM resolution changes when you change buffer length. Set up PM, then at some point the project gets too big and you have to switch ASIO to longer buffer to get better performance, the PM changes.

What if we actually want audio rate modulation? What if I've got a plugin which doesn't properly smooth its parameter changes so when you modulate it creates zipper noise of clicks or other artifacts? If the modulator actually put out smooth curves, you might get around that, or maybe you could write a JS that goes between the mod source and the plug and just smooths it, but without sample accurate parameter modulation, neither of those methods actually work.

There are other examples.
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Old 10-15-2016, 12:19 AM   #22
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I use parameter modulation a lot as well, but what I would really like to see is being able to draw an envelope for the lfo.

Sample accuracy would also be welcomed although unfortunately not that many plugins support it as far as I know (Melda is one of the few that actually document that they do).

That said, I now render my projects at 16 samples which seems to work for most plugins.
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Old 10-15-2016, 05:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Write it yourself. slider1=spl0



For a number of reasons, really. Perhaps most important because PM resolution changes when you change buffer length. Set up PM, then at some point the project gets too big and you have to switch ASIO to longer buffer to get better performance, the PM changes.

What if we actually want audio rate modulation? What if I've got a plugin which doesn't properly smooth its parameter changes so when you modulate it creates zipper noise of clicks or other artifacts? If the modulator actually put out smooth curves, you might get around that, or maybe you could write a JS that goes between the mod source and the plug and just smooths it, but without sample accurate parameter modulation, neither of those methods actually work.

There are other examples.
cool info man , so whats best practice then to get consistancy ? always use your project at high latency and only switch to low latency only when recording ?

second question i use mainly the sidechain fuction of the parameter modulation (lfo not so much) , is that sample accurate ? because i don´t here any difference when switchin asio latency, i use it as a compressor with down to 0ms attack most of the time , i guess that sample correct then ? or not ?
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Old 10-15-2016, 07:43 AM   #24
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cool info man , so whats best practice then to get consistancy ? always use your project at high latency and only switch to low latency only when recording ?
For consistency? Probably just don't change buffer settings and commit by rendering (apply track FX or whatever) as early as possible/practical.

Quote:
second question i use mainly the sidechain fuction of the parameter modulation (lfo not so much) , is that sample accurate ? because i don´t here any difference when switchin asio latency, i use it as a compressor with down to 0ms attack most of the time , i guess that sample correct then ? or not ?
Not. With 0 attack and release, I'd expect it to act like a sample and hold sort of thing.

What you are modulating matters! Lots of good plugs have some sort of smoothing filter that will "hide" some of this. In those cases, even with sample-accurate PM, you will be limited in exactly how fast it will follow.

Last edited by ashcat_lt; 10-15-2016 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 10-15-2016, 09:29 AM   #25
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For consistency? Probably just don't change buffer settings and commit by rendering (apply track FX or whatever) as early as possible/practical.


Not. With 0 attack and release, I'd expect it to act like a sample and hold sort of thing.

What you are modulating matters! Lots of good plugs have some sort of smoothing filter that will "hide" some of this. In those cases, even with sample-accurate PM, you will be limited in exactly how fast it will follow.
im triggering reaeq gain values but think about purchasing fabfilter Q2
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Old 10-15-2016, 01:10 PM   #26
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im triggering reaeq gain values but think about purchasing fabfilter Q2
ReaEQ seems to be pretty well smoothed. Can't say exactly what it's response time is, but you're not going to get sample-by-sample following no matter what, and you won't probably hear the PM stair-steps unless your buffers are just absurdly long.
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Old 10-15-2016, 05:18 PM   #27
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ReaEQ seems to be pretty well smoothed. Can't say exactly what it's response time is, but you're not going to get sample-by-sample following no matter what, and you won't probably hear the PM stair-steps unless your buffers are just absurdly long.
hey good that you told me that ... there are lots of other options for frequenzy ducking , this was just so integrated and easy too set up but i can also just use reaxcomp, a quick search also sent me to tdl nova
will try that tommorrow
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Old 12-07-2016, 12:57 PM   #28
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+1 and a bump.
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Old 12-24-2016, 04:45 AM   #29
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And up for this one because it's also great ideas for modulation improvements!
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Old 12-24-2016, 05:35 AM   #30
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EDIT : Added features requested by others.
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:35 AM   #31
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Bum for this thread once again.
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Old 08-14-2017, 07:01 PM   #32
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Bump again
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:31 PM   #33
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Let's pimp out modulation!

And I'd like modulate modulation as well
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Old 08-19-2017, 09:50 PM   #34
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It would be very cool as a feature. +1 from me!
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:44 AM   #35
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Yes +1 also from me
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:27 PM   #36
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And window with manual envelope.
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:44 PM   #37
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And window with manual envelope.
Great idea!
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Old 09-21-2017, 03:04 AM   #38
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I love parameter modulation, use it all the time to get cool effects, esp changing window size in Pitch 2 based on Audio control signal.
Trying to get more specific with pitch modulation on samples from the ReaSamplOmatic5000 by sending certain MIDI triggers to 3+4 then sidechaining from that, but not getting any signal in the sidechain, tho i verified it's being sent to 3+4.. thought cause its "2 out" so i disabled 1+2 . . not to piggyback, but any thoughts as to why?
anyways, would love to see more from PM, it is the most unique feature of this DAW imo
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