Old 06-25-2017, 10:41 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
I sure wish somebody would explain to me how changing the bandwidth parameter doesn't do about the same thing.
This is my question as well.
What's the difference of creating 24db/oct with bandwidth vs. stacking 2 filters?

(I always grab the bandwidth-knob to get to where I want.)
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Old 06-25-2017, 10:53 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
This is my question as well.
What's the difference of creating 24db/oct with bandwidth vs. stacking 2 filters?

(I always grab the bandwidth-knob to get to where I want.)
you can't get a filter that steep with the bandwidth parameter.
you can get a gentler slope, close to 6 dB, but you can't get a steeper slope than 12 dB, it just adds resonance at the cutoff/corner.

edit:

here is a comparison (frequency responses) of the bandwidth parameter on ReaEQ...
HPF @ 100 Hz
blue = bandwidth = 0.01
red = bandwidth = 2
green = bandwidth = 4
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Old 06-25-2017, 11:32 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
the "12db/oct" figure is measured from "0", not the cutoff's -3dB.
Well, that didn't seem right to me. 12db/oct really does mean there should be 12db difference between any frequency and its double/half, but apparently different types of filters take longer to reach that "ultimate" slope, so basically you can't trust that first octave to tell you anything. If we looked another octave or two away, we'd be closer to the actual thing.

See here.
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Old 06-25-2017, 11:48 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Well, that didn't seem right to me. 12db/oct really does mean there should be 12db difference between any frequency and its double/half, but apparently different types of filters take longer to reach that "ultimate" slope, so basically you can't trust that first octave to tell you anything. If we looked another octave or two away, we'd be closer to the actual thing.

See here.
yeh, that makes sense, i've noticed variations with different filter types.
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Old 06-25-2017, 12:48 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
for example...ReaEQ with a HPF set @ 100 Hz...one octave down (50 Hz) is -12 dB...
i just noticed this...is it me or does ReaEQ show the wrong phase plot here ?

shouldn't the cut off be at 90 degrees and not 180 ?
(...assuming the vertical line is 180 deg, which it usually is)

and where the heck are the "degrees" markers for the phase plot ?
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Old 06-25-2017, 03:35 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
This is my question as well.
What's the difference of creating 24db/oct with bandwidth vs. stacking 2 filters?

(I always grab the bandwidth-knob to get to where I want.)

The Bandwidth parameter is actually the Q-factor adjustment of an LC circuit.
The filter stimulated in ReaEQ is apparently not a RC filter since there is a Q-factor adjustment. Q-factor is a 'quality' measure of the components used in a LC circuit. As you might know a LC circuit is resonant and that is why the filters can be adjusted to self resonate.
The Q-factor has no effect on the filter order (or number of poles in a filter) and that is why the slope really can't be controlled with this parameter in a real hardware filter.

With software, well.... I have no clue how it's written.

Makes sense?
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Old 06-25-2017, 03:39 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
This is my question as well.
What's the difference of creating 24db/oct with bandwidth vs. stacking 2 filters?

(I always grab the bandwidth-knob to get to where I want.)
Hi Geir, are you stacking the bands in ReaEQ? I've not done that, I get pretty much what I want by just adjusting the bandwidth, I've not run into any problems with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bezusheist View Post
i just noticed this...is it me or does ReaEQ show the wrong phase plot here ?

shouldn't the cut off be at 90 degrees and not 180 ?
(...assuming the vertical line is 180 deg, which it usually is)

and where the heck are the "degrees" markers for the phase plot ?
Thank you bezusheist, and also you ashcat, for your technical guidance here. I've been doing this stuff for over 50 years, but I've never gotten into the real technical stuff, but I still find many technical things interesting especially if it helps me in any way to apply the tools.

Actually I've got books that go back to the early 70s that do cover all this stuff, and I've pretty much worn them out. Heh heh, but when the rubber meets the road, it's the way the tools sound with what ever I'm working on that really matters, and I'm sure we can all agree on that.

EQ is one of the most absolute important tools we have for working with audio. I keep seeing threads that say we should avoid using EQ as much as possible, and the phase is nearly always brought up. I feel sorry for the poor folks that take this verbatim without understanding the other aspects of it.

In all honesty, I have to say, I've always had a good control room (since the very early 70s), and I understand how important that can be. If you don't have a good listening environment then it can be a real crap shoot and I feel bad for those that are going through that.

Also thank you hamish, I had no idea what the JS Gaussian plugin was.
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Old 06-25-2017, 04:03 PM   #48
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They key question here is (I think) what filter type is simulated in ReaEQ?

Moog ladder filter, Butterworth filter, Chebushev.... ??
The theory behind the actual filter model should explain all of this.
It's only math.
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Old 06-25-2017, 04:06 PM   #49
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Moog Ladder filter theory.
Moog filter


Easy it is not...
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Old 06-26-2017, 03:10 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Also thank you hamish, I had no idea what the JS Gaussian plugin was.
Ha ha, not at all. That just happened to be the first noise generator that I grabbed.

Thanks to the other experts for pointing out the difference, although now I'm going to have to do more reading.

In practice I do most HPF with the JS 12-pole (aka liteon applefilter) because of variable slope and resonance.

I use ReaEQ for peak/band EQ and its allpass. I also have https://www.kvraudio.com/product/eng...lter_by_rs_met on hand for experiments with the different filter circuits, and by the same developer there is a very good cross-over that I use for multi-band compression.
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:25 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
What's the difference of creating 24db/oct with bandwidth vs. stacking 2 filters?
Stacking two 6 dB (single pole) filters is just one type (Gaussian) of a 12 db (two pole) Filter (24 db needs 4 times 6 dB). But there are lots of different types of 12 dB filters with different characteristics and benefits/disadvantages.

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Old 07-30-2017, 04:23 PM   #52
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Ok a hijack
I am trying to find a High pass filter that does exactly this
"Works well"
That is if I want to cut mud from the bass then this will do so.
In my rig I have Meldaproduction, UAD, Fabfilter etc etc I have far to many.
What I get when I have a mix down is this Bass flab in the wave file
despite having what I thought was quality High pass filter eq on my bass and drums etc
The only eq thus far that will get rid of this low end bass for me, and it
is really noticeable when listening back is "Harbal eq".
Obviously I may be missing something in my kit.
Is anyone out there able to let me know what other software eq out there
will come up with the "High Pass" goods in tracking?

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Old 07-30-2017, 08:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
What I get when I have a mix down is this Bass flab in the wave file
despite having what I thought was quality High pass filter eq on my bass and drums etc
Why does it 'have' to be a HPF? To me those often run the risk of sounding like a sonic meat cleaver; often a bell or shelf will do the job better without losing the meat.
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:38 PM   #54
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That is an interesting thought Karbo!
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Old 07-31-2017, 01:41 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
Ok a hijack
I am trying to find a High pass filter that does exactly this
"Works well"
any "brand" HPF should work, really. It's just a matter of getting the settings right, like any other effect.
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Old 07-31-2017, 03:00 AM   #56
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I am afraid they do not work to a fine degree
I have tried my Fab filter, UAD, etc etc
Have a go make your mixes visualize them
and see the results then play each file the lack of what you thought was a
clean cut low bass cut
is quite apparent when listening to the sounds of the mix's.
Many just do not not Hi Pass how they should
Harbal has it's critics that said you can not criticize the HP filter it employs.

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Old 07-31-2017, 03:10 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
I am afraid they do not work to a fine degree
I have tried my Fab filter, UAD, etc etc
Have a go make your mixes visualize them
and see the results then play each file the lack of what you thought was a
clean cut low bass cut
is quite apparent when listening to the sounds of the mix's.
Many just do not not Hi Pass how they should
Harbal has it's critics that said you can not criticize the HP filter it employs.

Grinder
Nonsense...

Just because your expectations are different from reality doesn't mean that reality is wrong...
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Old 07-31-2017, 12:03 PM   #58
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I disagree most strongly bezusheist
Low cut, High pass I expect the job to be done by an eq that
promises this.....
I do not think this is an unreasonable expectation.

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Old 08-01-2017, 02:40 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
I disagree most strongly bezusheist
Low cut, High pass I expect the job to be done by an eq that
promises this.....
I do not think this is an unreasonable expectation.

Grinder
Yeh, maybe I chose bad words to get my point across...
No doubt, a filter should do what it says and work "properly".
What I have a hard time understanding is what the actual problem is that you are having with the average HPF not working correctly.
I have tested many filters ("scientifically") and it is rare that one does not work how it should. I have found a few, but most have been fixed/updated. (I never tested analog emu's, only clean digital stuff)
Any well coded IIR HPF should work as intended. FIR can be another story, though.

unfortunately I do not see a demo for Harbal, but I would analyze it and find another HP filter that works the same way. I doubt there is any "magic" or anything "special" about it. I would bet that DMG EQuilibrium could match it nearly exact...

Anyway, if you could be more specific about what filters do not work and why, i could understand better where you are coming from. But to read blanket statements about filters not working properly kind of makes me wonder...because I have rarely seen/heard this to be the case.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:44 PM   #60
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I will try over the next day to provide two photographs of a song wave file.
This should explain, I was floored when playing the before and after extra
cutting of the bass as per physically seeing the graph.
Afterwards when listening back to the original wave file and the used Harbal eg
High pass filter all the mud I was hearing that was there over two days previously and could not get rid of was then gone.

I will get back.

Thanks

Steve
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:19 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
for steeper filters up to 72dB/oct you can use the included JSFX: Apple 12-Pole Filter (Liteon/applefilter72db)
Oh man, thanks! Another jem! This solves my need for ReaEQ to have selectable slopes. REAPER ftw.
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Old 08-03-2017, 10:43 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
I am afraid they do not work to a fine degree
I have tried my Fab filter, UAD, etc etc
Have a go make your mixes visualize them
and see the results then play each file the lack of what you thought was a
clean cut low bass cut
is quite apparent when listening to the sounds of the mix's.
Many just do not not Hi Pass how they should
Harbal has it's critics that said you can not criticize the HP filter it employs.

Grinder

It sounds like you have something in parallel going on maybe that is why you cant seem to be able to cut the way you want? I use Melda with no problems and tried Fabfilter before wich works perfectly or maybe I dont get what your problem is...
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:28 PM   #63
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Sorry away yesterday will try to get a couple of photographs late today.

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Old 08-03-2017, 02:31 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I use HP all the time because I like the way it can clean up the mud...
You also could try the "BBE Exiter" JSFX for reducing "mud".

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Old 08-03-2017, 10:25 PM   #65
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sorry brother had a heart attack will post soon

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Old 08-08-2017, 01:38 PM   #66
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Ok back

Here are two files Fabfilter Pro2 Q and Melda Productions Dynamic eq
were used on the Bass and for the drums Fab Filter.
All had a 36 HZ Hi Pass filter at 24 slope.

The untreated mix in Harbal shows a real kick (the yellow graph line.
This shows up by ear as a cloudy muddy bass on listening the effect on the listener is quite uncomfortable.

After treatment by the High Pass filter in Harbal the listening becomes %100 better.
Listening through a standard 80's technics stereo system... teeter one normal midrange... speaker per box per side.

This is why I do not understand why the VST eq's of this calibre do not get rid of this kick out as far as Hi Pass goes. Am I missing something?
After treatment the lowest the bass is "seen to go" on the graph is 10db.

Grinder
Attached Images
File Type: jpg eq graph untreated2.jpg (55.1 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg eq graph treated1.jpg (51.1 KB, 29 views)
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Old 08-08-2017, 06:03 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
Here are two files Fabfilter Pro2 Q and Melda Productions Dynamic eqwere used on the Bass and for the drums Fab Filter.
All had a 36 HZ Hi Pass filter at 24 slope.
Hi grinder, if you want your pictures to be useful, you need to use a different method than attachments, they make things too small to see.

One of the great resources for this is Reaper's own stash.

https://stash.reaper.fm/

It's there for Reaper things and works great, just try not to abuse it.

You do have to register separately, it doesn't use your Reaper registration.

Give that a try.
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:33 PM   #68
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Hi Tod
Tod I can see the yellow graph line and the green quite clearly?
I have not got very good vision any more either. The point I was trying to make was after
Hi Passing with my fabulous VST eq's that yellow power plot shows me were the mud is coming from and when I get rid of the excess with the Hi Pass filter in Harbal the problem goes away.
The mud being that yellow tongue at the lower left end of the graph line.

I would have expected any High Pass filter to remove unwanted Bass in line with the freq chosen?

Re the size of the picture I endeavoured to place the photos at 200 pixels wide but was not allowed to by the Reaper forum as they were too big.

Grinder

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Old 08-08-2017, 10:50 PM   #69
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Quote:
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I would have expected any High Pass filter to remove unwanted Bass in line with the freq chosen?
Using an EQ always is finding a compromise between doing the intended modification and not introducing too much harm.

One problem course is that a certain frequency-curve results in a certain phase-curve. And inappropriate phase-behavior might be perceived as new "mud" introduced.

That is why there are different kinds of filters (e.g. Gauss, Tschebyscheff, Bessel, ... that theoretically can be used for any "band" or frequency range.

And that is why there are dynamic filters (such as BBE Exiter, as a very simple example) that introduce different filtering for different situations.

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Old 08-09-2017, 01:03 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
The mud being that yellow tongue at the lower left end of the graph line.
Looks to me like the analyzer has too low resolution to represent the low frequencies accurately. I would use a better analyzer (Span) with large fft/block size.

this is a plot of 2 of ReaEQ's filters stacked to make a 24dB filter...

even with high resolution there is still a little inaccuracy in the lowest frequencies (<2 Hz).
this is a shortcoming of the analyzer, not the filter.
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:03 AM   #71
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Many thanks mschnell
What is the name of the filter I would use set to achieve the result that Harbal
enables me to?

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Old 08-09-2017, 01:34 AM   #72
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run one of the attached impulses through harbal and post it here...then i can tell you exactly what kind of filter it is...

impulses
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:01 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassman1 View Post
A slight thread hijack: Are there any free EQs that have a 'slectatable' high dB slope?
You can always use the EQ in ReaFIR, and draw whatever slope you like.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:40 PM   #74
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I found an eq with a good Hi Pass filter in my collection
The "Cambridge" eq from UAD this nearly goes to the floor.

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Old 09-13-2017, 06:55 PM   #75
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Use Pro-Q, Tod.
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Old 09-14-2017, 01:02 AM   #76
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I'm a huge fan of IIEQPro by DDMF.

I almost always use the Legendre for high passing, and I don't know why it's not seen in more EQ plugins. No ripple, minimal group shift, steep slope. The Butterworth is great for gentle low passing.

I have a dislike of pass-band ripple. If I want a bump at the corner frequency I can add a bell filter thanks!
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