Old 03-15-2016, 06:19 AM   #121
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Do you know if it works by black listing problematic apps or white listing compatible ones?
I would imagine it was due to a high number of error reports being sent. It apparently is only considered during major updates where there is evidence of the app making the system or user experience unstable. Remember that the entire idea of telemetry (been there since Windows 7 and some goes back to the 90s) was to provide solid evidence and/or root cause of an issue and be able to take action quicker vs. users reporting the issue for months and having to wait for months for it to be figured out - since the error reports include basic call stacks, it's exponentially easier and faster to understand the root cause. A message of it's occurrence to the end user would have been a good idea however.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:27 AM   #122
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The question is whether cpu-z installs and uses a kernel-mode driver or not. If it does then we can't blame Microsoft for the BSODs. If it doesn't then we can and we should, as per Kenz post. BSODs manifest malfunction in the kernel space. If this malfunction is caused by a user-space app then there is a bug in OS design and/or implementation. Very simple.

This is regardless of what it means for the user to have their apps mysteriously disappear and what it says about the OS that does that and about its architects.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:27 AM   #123
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Some of the comments here have eased me a little bit. I'm definitely waiting for a few years to see how this develops.

One thing I worry about is that I use free plugins from tiny developers, some that aren't updated but work fine. Would hate to think one could be disabled.

Of course there's also the problem of the updates happening on their own.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:57 AM   #124
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BSODs manifest malfunction in the kernel space.
As an academic aside... In reality, whether user mode or kernel mode and regardless of OS, crashes are simply a trust mechanism. Machines and apps don't have to crash but they are designed do so the moment some data structure can no longer be trusted. Waaaay back in my early Atari/Commodore64 days, crash mechanisms didn't exist in those, if you corrupted data, you simply got corrupted results. I remember times when there would be random artifacts on the screens and text upside down or who knows.

I don't think there is a true mechanism to guarantee a driver or in some cases a user-mode app can't result in that trust being broken (most all user mode stacks have a kernel mode section). In order for a driver to work, it must have read/write access to some volatile data structures owned by the kernel. If that is the case, any corruption (even a bad pointer) violates that trust, hence the BSOD. I would imagine Reaper is in a similar predicament when it hosts a VST where it must allow access to structures that can be corrupted by the VST and cause Reaper itself to crash.

In hindsight I realized my CPUZ issue was actually a hard freeze aka deadlock not a BSOD. CPUZ hadn't been removed (this was before the November update that removes that version). That's somewhat irrelevant to the issue but just noting my remembering.
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:38 AM   #125
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Some of the comments here have eased me a little bit. I'm definitely waiting for a few years to see how this develops.

One thing I worry about is that I use free plugins from tiny developers, some that aren't updated but work fine. Would hate to think one could be disabled.

Of course there's also the problem of the updates happening on their own.
Get Win Pro. I have always had my studio machine on pro since XP.
With Pro you still can`t EASILY stop MS delivering the updates but you CAN stop them installing them or indeed you can do what I do - defer the installation till it suits you.
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Old 03-15-2016, 09:37 AM   #126
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Get Win Pro. I have always had my studio machine on pro since XP.
With Pro you still can`t EASILY stop MS delivering the updates but you CAN stop them installing them or indeed you can do what I do - defer the installation till it suits you.
That is an option, though it is a lot more expensive - about double the price.

Bit sickening, to be honest, that one has to pay a premium to stop this inconvenience. To me it doesn't seem it can be justified as an extra feature, it seems more like "malware" such as a free AV that has pop-up ads.

It's a shame they don't use reaper's model where the license you need depends on whether you use it for commercial purposes. That leaves customers happy whereas with Windows I feel like I'm forced to buy something I don't particularly want.
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Old 03-15-2016, 11:43 AM   #127
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On the other hand you have always got a lot more bang for your buck and most importantly more control over your computer with Pro. And you only have to cough up for it once now.

Might be worth looking for an upgrade version for win 7 domestic or whatever it is called. Probably a cheaper way to 10 pro than just buying it outright.
Install the upgrade and then wait till the Win10 offer shows up on your desktop.
At least you will have practice migrating your programs & data to a new OS!
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Old 03-15-2016, 10:57 PM   #128
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I've seen several reports from credible people that Windows 7 and 8 have started self-updating to 10. Anyone here?

Of course, can't happen if the machine isn't connected. But most of these reports came from people who had updates disabled, some even with known and trusted patches...
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:56 AM   #129
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I don't think there is a true mechanism to guarantee a driver or in some cases a user-mode app can't result in that trust being broken (most all user mode stacks have a kernel mode section). In order for a driver to work, it must have read/write access to some volatile data structures owned by the kernel. If that is the case, any corruption (even a bad pointer) violates that trust, hence the BSOD.
If that was true, then we would see blue screens all the time. As we did with Win9x. Instead, we see programs crash but not the OS. What changed between Win9x and WinNT (which is what we are using)? Memory protection. The kernel-space section you see in user-mode process memory space AFAIK is not readable nor writeable to the process itself, it is there because when the process makes a system call, it is convenient for the OS to have the pointers in the same virtual memory as the process. BTW user-space processes can read and write to their own virtual memory. When they want to perform anything beyond this virtual memory (such as read a file or i/o or create a process etc), they will kindly send a system call and then if approved by the OS, they will receive a handle to operate on the requested object.
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I would imagine Reaper is in a similar predicament when it hosts a VST where it must allow access to structures that can be corrupted by the VST and cause Reaper itself to crash.
Yes, AFAIK Reaper gives plugins access to parts of its own memory, which causes crashes and freezes when the plugin malfunctions. So it's designed like Win9x. Which is OK because security and failure tolerance are less important than performance in a DAW.
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:26 AM   #130
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If that was true, then we would see blue screens all the time. As we did with Win9x. Instead, we see programs crash but not the OS. What changed between Win9x and WinNT (which is what we are using)?
What you are describing above is an exception in user mode code can't cause a BSOD which is correct but that isn't what I hoped to explain. It may be the driver's or OS' fault but a user mode app could have made the call that ended up there. The bigger point was, that a driver can't actually do work if it can't modify structures in kernel, that's why it lives in kernel and why a driver can cause a BSOD. Granted the wording could have been better.

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Yes, AFAIK Reaper gives plugins access to parts of its own memory
It has to, that's why it's called a 'plugin'. If I want to debug a plugin or extension in Reaper, I have to attach the debugger to Reaper to see my code execute because it is running inside of Reaper's memory space.
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:32 PM   #131
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Sort of back OT: let's make something clear here. Speccy isn't a program that I use a whole lot and I'm not particulary crippled by the fact that Win 10 keeps uninstalling it. I use it for monitoring system temperatures for the most part but there's probably a shit ton of other programs that do this as well. All that is completely beside the point the point though.

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more than likely they are ignorant of what is actually happening.
The problem here is that my OS uninstalls programs without notice or my consent. How can anyone defend or even shrug that off unless it's actual malware? (and even antimalware programs inform you what they're doing, and why).

This leads to, shall we say, trust issues.
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:35 PM   #132
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The problem here is that my OS uninstalls programs without notice or my consent. How can anyone defend or even shrug that off unless it's actual malware? (and even antimalware programs inform you what they're doing, and why).

This leads to, shall we say, trust issues.
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:38 PM   #133
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Big brother is looking out for your best interests, little brother.
That should be Microsoft's new slogan
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:40 PM   #134
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Speccy isn't a program that I use a whole lot and I'm not particulary crippled by the fact that Win 10 keeps uninstalling it.
I'd be interested in what "keeps uninstalling" means details wise since AFAIK that only happens during a major upgrade. Can you elaborate? TLDR to go through the entire thread again if I missed.

I agree it should tell you it removed it but on a side note apparently that app doesn't have a great track record as of late just as an FYI...

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...indows+10+bsod
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:48 PM   #135
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I'd be interested in what "keeps uninstalling" means details wise since AFAIK that only happens during a major upgrade. Can you elaborate? TLDR to go through the entire thread again if I missed.

I already agreed it should tell you it removed it but on a side note apparently that app doesn't have a great track record as of late...

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...indows+10+bsod
I'm thinking more and more that avocadomix's suggestion that my lappy is stuck in some kind of applying-updates-but-failing-and-trying-again loop might be completely spot on as Speccy was removed again just a few days ago. I think this is the third or fourth time it has happened since I moved to Win 10 late last year.

I've become aware through these recent Win 10 discussions here that Speccy is a bad boy, yeah. But I've never had a problem with it on any machine I've installed it on.

Edit: and there hasn't been any major Win 10 updates lately... or?
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:55 PM   #136
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I'm thinking more and more that avocadomix's suggestion that my lappy is stuck in some kind of applying-updates-but-failing-and-trying-again loop might be completely spot on as Speccy was removed again just a few days ago. I think this is the third or fourth time it has happened since I moved to Win 10 late last year.

I've become aware through these recent Win 10 discussions here that Speccy is a bad boy, yeah. But I've never had a problem with it on any machine I've installed it on.

Edit: and there hasn't been any major Win 10 updates lately... or?
No worries, just curious really. I think the last build 1511 was out in November'ish but don't quote me. Not sure how long before your machine pulled it and updated. You can click the windows key then type "WinVer" minus the quotes and hit enter to see the version btw.
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:56 PM   #137
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In the above example, if Microsoft were concerned about users' best interests, a warning would be generated for any problematic software, possibly even an option to uninstall it, rather than making it go *poof* without a word about it.
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:14 PM   #138
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No worries, just curious really. I think the last build 1511 was out in November'ish but don't quote me. Not sure how long before your machine pulled it and updated. You can click the windows key then type "WinVer" minus the quotes and hit enter to see the version btw.
Build 1511 here too.

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In the above example, if Microsoft were concerned about users' best interests, a warning would be generated for any problematic software, possibly even an option to uninstall it, rather than making it go *poof* without a word about it.
Eaxactly that, yeah.

Anyway, I'm going to do what has been suggested here and completely reinstall Win 10 on my laptop as soon as I find the time.

Will I need to extract my Win 10 license key from the OS or will it be detected automatically (it has a UEFI firmware)?
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:21 PM   #139
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ummm OSX anyone?
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:27 PM   #140
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found this on wikipedia when i googled info on speccy:
Quote:
As of Windows 10 version 1511 released in November 2015, Speccy versions 1.28.709 and before are automatically uninstalled after downloading the update.[9][10] Speccy 1.29.714 was released on December 3rd to restore Speccy to Windows 10 after the November update.
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:32 PM   #141
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ummm OSX anyone?
Yeah, let's make a Hackintosh of my $300 bullshit laptop! That would be interesting at least

Seriously though, no Macs for me. Never got along with them. I'm too firmly rooted in the PC/Windows paradigm to even consider it. If a Windows version sucks -- you wait it out!

Hell, I stuck with Win XP 2002-2011...
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:17 PM   #142
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If a Windows version sucks -- you wait it out!
This is allegedly the last ever version of Windows so it will have to evolve away from the suckers, grow some different legs!

Now all the drivers are sorted for this system (some months ago) The only real niggle I have so far with this new Windows is the business model.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:20 PM   #143
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ummm OSX anyone?
are you even fucking serious? Do you see the constant upgrade headaches there?
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:23 PM   #144
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This is allegedly the last ever version of Windows so it will have to evolve away from the suckers, grow some different legs!
The operative word being "allegedly". You don't trust their business model but you take their word for this being the last Windows ever?
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:01 PM   #145
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The operative word being "allegedly". You don't trust their business model but you take their word for this being the last Windows ever?
It's the last version ever, until it needs to not be the last version ever.....
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:58 PM   #146
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Windows 11 will come out during the next Rolling Stones Farewell Forever tour.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:25 AM   #147
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What you are describing above is an exception in user mode code can't cause a BSOD which is correct but that isn't what I hoped to explain. It may be the driver's or OS' fault but a user mode app could have made the call that ended up there. The bigger point was, that a driver can't actually do work if it can't modify structures in kernel, that's why it lives in kernel and why a driver can cause a BSOD. Granted the wording could have been better.



It has to, that's why it's called a 'plugin'. If I want to debug a plugin or extension in Reaper, I have to attach the debugger to Reaper to see my code execute because it is running inside of Reaper's memory space.
I've found out that my plugins run smoother (less drops) if they are in their dedicated process even with the interprocess overhead, as the load is better shared between cores
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Old 03-17-2016, 04:44 AM   #148
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I've been thinking about this automatic update. Will Windows just restart even if I'm in the middle of a session?

What if someone is working on something and takes a coffee break. Could they come back to a restarted pc with all unsaved work lost?
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:08 AM   #149
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I've been thinking about this automatic update. Will Windows just restart even if I'm in the middle of a session?

What if someone is working on something and takes a coffee break. Could they come back to a restarted pc with all unsaved work lost?
No it never does that. The updates are only installed when you restart.
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:23 AM   #150
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Even the DPC spikes seem much "snappier" in Windows10.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:12 AM   #151
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No it never does that. The updates are only installed when you restart.
Really? I restart my computer about once a month, if that. In fact, I only do it to install Windows updates.

So the only thing that would change for me is that the updates would download on their own but won't install until I restart?

What's this about the pro version allowing to delay the restarts then? Or is it the pro version you have?
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:53 AM   #152
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Really? I restart my computer about once a month, if that. In fact, I only do it to install Windows updates.

So the only thing that would change for me is that the updates would download on their own but won't install until I restart?

What's this about the pro version allowing to delay the restarts then? Or is it the pro version you have?
I'm not using Pro. I was tempted to go upgrade to Pro but with no prospect of decent broadband decided it would just be easier to allow every update. I've updated older versions of Windows in the past with all the cumulative updates, not fun.
The other consideration is memory limit. I believe 128GB for Win10 Home shouldn't be restrictive for a long, long time.

You never turn your PC off?
Maybe in that case you would get nagging reminders to do so, I don't know. So far I've never had a reminder from Win 10. It just happens as a background process.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:02 AM   #153
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You never turn your PC off?
Maybe in that case you would get nagging reminders to do so, I don't know. So far I've never had a reminder from Win 10. It just happens as a background process.
I never turn any of my machines off. But yes, at some point one should get a popup that says as paraphrased...

"We've installed some updates, we think sometime AM looks good, or you can restart now or choose another time".

If you take no action, it will reboot at the suggested time which is typically a time the OS has found where you are never or rarely using the machine.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:06 AM   #154
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I never turn any of my machines off. But yes, at some point one should get a popup that says as paraphrased...

"We've installed some updates, we think sometime AM looks good, or you can restart now or choose another time".

If you take no action, it will reboot at the suggested time which is typically a time the OS has found where you are never or rarely using the machine.
Presumably you guys have your systems doing something overnight?
Rendering graphics, helping SETi or whatever?
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:14 AM   #155
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Presumably you guys have your systems doing something overnight?
Rendering graphics, helping SETi or whatever?
Nah, the semi-hibernate feature works so well, it isn't worth the trouble to shut down and boot. However, I've left machines on 24/7 since mid-2000s. Just checked one of my machines (not win10 though):

PS C:\Users\Administrator> $Booted = (Get-WmiObject Win32_OperatingSystem).LastBootUpTime
PS C:\Users\Administrator> [Management.ManagementDateTimeConverter]::ToDateTime($Booted)

Friday, June 26, 2015 10:18:58 AM

So that one hasn't restarted in nine months, which was back in the summer and 105F outside and the transformer that serviced my block in the neighborhood keep tripping - looks like that's the day they replaced it That also means I'm likely behind on updates I need to apply. Of course on my main machine, updates and backups run in the middle of the night so there is that.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:29 AM   #156
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Still not seeing any point in this, unless your computer is actually working on something.

Allowing Windows 10 to do it's updates as and when they are painless.
Delayed cumulative updates by contrast can be annoying. Now with SSD even the big updates (like the Nov update) are over before you know it. Everything just works. So far it's been a fairly invisible process, and that's with my crappy 2.5mb broadband.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:38 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Still not seeing any point in this, unless your computer is actually working on something.
I'm liable to, and often do walk up to my machines at any time, even at 3:00 AM, I don't want it off and I'm not gonna turn it off. The point is that today's sleep is basically only keeping the processor/memory on at a very low level yet wakes up in a couple seconds so there is not much savings by shutting down. Even if it didn't I would not be shutting down and booting twice a day, total pain in the ass as much as I use computers. IMHO they are better served being left on these days (by design) because the stuff that waits in the background while you are working is deferred until you aren't using it - search indexing, defrag, updates and a other maintenance.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:14 PM   #158
Stews
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Presumably you guys have your systems doing something overnight?
Rendering graphics, helping SETi or whatever?
I fall asleep watching videos on my pc. Also like to quickly check things in the morning and wouldn't have time to boot it up.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:22 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post

Originally Posted by Softsynth
Presumably you guys have your systems doing something overnight?
Rendering graphics, helping SETi or whatever?


I'm liable to, and often do walk up to my machines at any time, even at 3:00 AM, I don't want it off and I'm not gonna turn it off. The point is that today's sleep is basically only keeping the processor/memory on at a very low level yet wakes up in a couple seconds so there is not much savings by shutting down. Even if it didn't I would not be shutting down and booting twice a day, total pain in the ass as much as I use computers. IMHO they are better served being left on these days (by design) because the stuff that waits in the background while you are working is deferred until you aren't using it - search indexing, defrag, updates and a other maintenance.
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Originally Posted by Stews View Post
I fall asleep watching videos on my pc. Also like to quickly check things in the morning and wouldn't have time to boot up.
Interesting. for what it's worth the DAW PC boots and is fully usable in a few seconds, very reliable and quick. I see no benefit to leaving my system on (when it's not downloading sample based programs), certainly not for performance gains or quick access or reliability but that's my system, not suggesting what you should do with your own hardware.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:29 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
Interesting. for what it's worth the DAW PC boots and is fully usable in a few seconds, very reliable and quick. I see no benefit to leaving my system on (when it's not downloading sample based programs), certainly not for performance gains or quick access or reliability but that's my system, not suggesting what you should do with your own hardware.
No worries, booting even when quick, like I said, is a complete waste of time for me personally. I want/need to hit enter, then enter my pin and everything that was up and running the day before (or a week before), still be there exactly like I left it. With 24GB of RAM I leave Reaper and who knows what open for weeks because my stability is that good; I don't need to worry about it and I don't like firing everything up just to get back to wherever I was - It's just always 'there'. I certainly don't mind if someone else likes to shut down/boot but I stopped needing to do that ages ago.

Side note: not sure who uses the pin feature in Win10 but I dig it.
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