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Old 09-12-2016, 01:48 PM   #1
lossius
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Default Ambisonic Toolkit for Reaper - 1.0.0.b10 - and a screencast

ATK for Reaper v.1.0.0 beta 10 is now available for download. This is a maintenance release fixing some issues that came up in the previous beta 9 release.

The more exciting news is that we have finally started making video tutorials on how to use ATK for Reaper. The first new screencast presents how to set up a Reaper project for decoding to headphones (binaural). Once the project is up and running, we look into four different ways of encoding mono sources using ATK for Reaper. The planewave, omni, spreader and diffuser encoders all offers different possibilities. This tutorial demonstrates how they work, in what ways they differ from each others, and presents some ideas for how they might be used in your ambisonic mixes.

Read more and view the new tutorial here:

http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/rele...-1.0.0b10.html
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:54 AM   #2
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@Lossius
Cool that you now have video tutorial

IMHO, rather than creating a new thread for each release, you should have one thread only for your ATK related stuff,
it would be easier for people to subsribe to news about the project on the forum,
rather than checking if you post a new thread, they could have a notification (mail or user cp) of new activities on the thread.
Bumping this ATK thread regularly could also be good for SEO. It could also help see how the project evolves in a more convenient way.

I added ATK github repo to ReaTeam ReaScripts repo Readme: ReaScripts/README.md at master · ReaTeam/ReaScripts. It is used as a reference document to link other REAPER scripts repo (as it is included natively in ReaPack, people have high chance to click on about and then to discover other scripts, even if they are not ReaPack friendly).
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:04 AM   #3
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Thanks for the suggestion. I see that this is how most folks deal with posts on the forum. Personally I don't like having to vade through heaps of old posts before getting to the more recent stuff, but I see your point with respect to subscribing to the post.

I'll make one last new thread when the the next release is out, and call it "Ambisonic Toolkit for Reaper", and then I'll stick to that for the future.

Thanks for mentioning ATK in the ReaScrips repo readme!
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Old 09-13-2016, 02:04 AM   #4
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This is wonderful news and perfect timing for me Trond. I'm actually about to start my first serious Ambisonic mix. I've just got a new paid gig mixing an album for a local band and they're pretty keen on what I've told them about Ambisonics. I also have my 3D cube array working much more effectively and have another Auratone 5C on the way (that will give me eight).

I'm going to go and have a look at some of those tutorials shortly and download the new beta.

I also sent Justin and John an email a week or two ago about Ambisonics and a possible dedicated section on the REAPER forum for it but not sure if they've seen the email.

Here's a copy of what I sent (I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this too):

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Dear Justin and John,

ReaDave here from the REAPER forum.

Given that REAPER is one of the best platforms for working with Ambisonic audio, I thought I'd write and suggest perhaps adding a dedicated Ambisonic section to the REAPER forum. There seems to be growing interest in this format now that YouTube have officially taken it onboard for their 360 video format and there's a lot of talk from people who work with Ambisonics and REAPER spread in obscure places on the web. There's a growing community of Ambisonic enthusiasts and developers on the REAPER forum itself now too.

Many film sound engineers are also using Ambisonics for location audio too. There's a good behind the scenes video about a new Australian film where much of the the location audio is being recorded in Ambisonic format using a Sound Devices 744T recorder and a Soundfield ST450 II mic here... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDeGA8PL0qE

It would be great to have a well known and easily accessible 'home' for the discussion of this format and I believe the REAPER forum would be an ideal place for it. I'd be happy to help with moderation of that section if that would be helpful and would be active in promoting this section via my website and social media network.

Keen to hear your thoughts on this.

Regards,
David.

www.ambisonicmusic.com
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:15 AM   #5
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I also sent Justin and John an email a week or two ago about Ambisonics and a possible dedicated section on the REAPER forum for it but not sure if they've seen the email.
I would rather propose a "Multichannel/Surround/Ambisonics audio" forum section.

Audio involving more than 2 (reproduction) channels is a pretty niche topic to begin with, so I think a forum section involving an even more niche topic (Ambisonics) might not fly so well...
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:54 AM   #6
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A dedicated forum for multichannel audio would be useful, and I agree with Xenakios that it makes sense to cater for morethan ambisonics if it is to happen. Thanks for the initiative, ReaDave!

Oh, and by the way: I just added one more screencast. This time I'm encoding stereo sound sources. It's up on the web site, and the resulting Reaper projects can be downloaded from the "ATK for Reaper - Tutorials" page.
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Old 09-13-2016, 06:53 AM   #7
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Awesome thanks for doing that!
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Old 09-13-2016, 06:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
I would rather propose a "Multichannel/Surround/Ambisonics audio" forum section.

Audio involving more than 2 (reproduction) channels is a pretty niche topic to begin with, so I think a forum section involving an even more niche topic (Ambisonics) might not fly so well...
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me too and would no doubt make that section a lot more active.
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Old 09-13-2016, 06:57 AM   #9
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Definitely looking forward to checking out those tutorials Trond. Right now though I really need to get some sleep. Your work on developing these tools for us is HUGELY appreciated.
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:34 AM   #10
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Read more and view the new tutorial here:

http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/rele...-1.0.0b10.html
Going to watch this now, thanks for posting it.

I don't suppose Vimeo supports multichannel audio, so is that the reason you use the binaural decoder?
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:11 PM   #11
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Going to watch this now, thanks for posting it.

I don't suppose Vimeo supports multichannel audio, so is that the reason you use the binaural decoder?
Yes, and I generally prefer advertisement-free hosting at Vimeo rather than having the videos bloated with advertisements at YouTube.
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:21 PM   #12
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Yes, and I generally prefer advertisement-free hosting at Vimeo rather than having the videos bloated with advertisements at YouTube.
Well, Youtube doesn't support multichannel audio either... :-/ Vimeo could become a pioneer in this regard, maybe they should be hinted about this?
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Old 09-14-2016, 03:01 AM   #13
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Is the parameter automation broken in this release...? At least the RotateTiltTumble plugin doesn't seem to react to automation envelopes or parameter modulation here...(OS-X 10.11.6 64 bit, Reaper 5.25pre6.)
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Old 09-14-2016, 03:22 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
I would rather propose a "Multichannel/Surround/Ambisonics audio" forum section.

Audio involving more than 2 (reproduction) channels is a pretty niche topic to begin with, so I think a forum section involving an even more niche topic (Ambisonics) might not fly so well...
Absolutely agree!
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Old 09-14-2016, 03:44 AM   #15
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Is the parameter automation broken in this release...? At least the RotateTiltTumble plugin doesn't seem to react to automation envelopes or parameter modulation here...(OS-X 10.11.6 64 bit, Reaper 5.25pre6.)
Hi, there indeed seem to be two, maybe three issues:

- Parameter modulation is broken. This seems to be an issue in all plugins that have parameters describing azimuths. This probably happened in beta 9 when I swapped from describing azimuth as positive in clock-wise direction to rather have azimuh positive in counter-clockwise direction. This seems to be a bug introduced in Reaper 5 itself, rather than my plugins. I'll report this to the developers.
- Automation works for me when I record new automations. Still I notice a glitch during playback: If I automate a slow clockwise or counter-clockwise rotation so that it is moving from back left to back right or from back right to back left (so crossing the -180/180 degree switch at the back), this works smoothly while recording the automation. But on playback there is a glitch in the audio production that seems to indicate that some interpolation takes place that is not able to handle this switching well.
- Finally, if you are working on a project created pre beta 9, there might be issues with azimuth automations in the project, caused by how the azimuth was changed form beta 8 to beta 9. That change broke backwards compatibility.

Do this cover the issues that you see, or are there additional ones? I'll report the first two ones to the Reaper developers.
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Old 09-14-2016, 07:17 AM   #16
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Do this cover the issues that you see, or are there additional ones? I'll report the first two ones to the Reaper developers.
Yeah those are the issues.
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Old 09-23-2016, 05:22 AM   #17
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I had to revert back to beta 7 to do the stuff I needed for now. (beta 8 is missing from the website...?) Hopefully the issues in the later versions can be resolved eventually.
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Old 09-28-2016, 08:08 PM   #18
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*Solved* I had to delete everything and install clean, I've been using ATK for a long time and leftover files from a previous version were causing the problem I describe below.

I'm finding that FocusPushPressZoom has the controls reversed bilaterally. This means that pushing the control ball to the back or front of the grid causes the correct manipulation but all motions left and right are reversed. This means if I push the control ball left the soundfield is pressed, focused, etc. to the right. This does not match the behaviour in the tutorial video so I'm pretty sure it's not intended.

I'm on Windows 10 running the latest 1.0.0.b10 of ATK and the latest build of Reaper, 5.25.
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Old 09-29-2016, 12:46 AM   #19
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Thanks Plush2 for the update. On Mac I've added a script to the installer that deletes previous Effects/ATK folder to avoid conflicts. Sounds like I should add info advising users to do the same when installing for Windows.
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Old 10-06-2016, 04:54 AM   #20
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The bugs discussed with Xenakios earlier on are now properly reported here:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=182297

and

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=182298
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:41 PM   #21
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@lossius
Did you see the new joystick API for JSFX/ReaScript ? It can help you modifing parameters based on Joystick input,
Maybe your 3d panner can take advantage of this :P
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Old 12-05-2016, 05:59 PM   #22
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@TonE
As many as you want !
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Old 02-21-2018, 05:35 AM   #23
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Oh, I found this thread after I wrote into the b9 thread.

lossius, are there plans for HOA ATK? The ATK transformers are just too sexy not to have when using HOA.
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:50 PM   #24
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Oh, I found this thread after I wrote into the b9 thread.

lossius, are there plans for HOA ATK? The ATK transformers are just too sexy not to have when using HOA.
HOA, ambiX, sn3d for the ATK would be wonderful! Might be a significant amount of work but I'd be willing to donate to help make it happen.
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Old 02-22-2018, 03:33 AM   #25
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HOA, ambiX, sn3d for the ATK would be wonderful! Might be a significant amount of work but I'd be willing to donate to help make it happen.
Same here, donations wise. Tools like FB360 are amazing for positioning, but the diffuser+spreader+focusPushZoom tools are just better for "ambient" stuff. I have not yet found a way to "diffuse" sound like that with other tools. :-/
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:39 AM   #26
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Same here, donations wise. Tools like FB360 are amazing for positioning, but the diffuser+spreader+focusPushZoom tools are just better for "ambient" stuff. I have not yet found a way to "diffuse" sound like that with other tools. :-/
There are some fantastic tools for HOA in the Blue Ripple Sound suites. They are quite expensive but worth the money. I have their core suite (free) and their decoders and upmixers. The upmixers can do some impressive spreading of stereo and 5.1 into a third order mix. I use those on every project at the moment.

It would be wonderful to have such tools in the ATK though.

The IEM Ambisonic plugins are also well worth a look and are free. Their developer Daniel Rudrich is very responsive to emails too. I've had a couple of serious crashes with the visualization plugin and will report it to him but everything else seems very stable.
The shoebox room plugin is really nice. You can place an object in a room and animate it complete with doppler effect, 3D reflections and level changes.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:55 PM   #27
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There are some fantastic tools for HOA in the Blue Ripple Sound suites. They are quite expensive but worth the money. I have their core suite (free) and their decoders and upmixers. The upmixers can do some impressive spreading of stereo and 5.1 into a third order mix. I use those on every project at the moment.

It would be wonderful to have such tools in the ATK though.

The IEM Ambisonic plugins are also well worth a look and are free. Their developer Daniel Rudrich is very responsive to emails too. I've had a couple of serious crashes with the visualization plugin and will report it to him but everything else seems very stable.
The shoebox room plugin is really nice. You can place an object in a room and animate it complete with doppler effect, 3D reflections and level changes.
Thanks for the tips! I am already using IEM, actually just used the room encoder! (Also they released an update a few hours ago. I will take a look at the BlueRipple core suite. Are 3rd Order precise enough for you? I Feel like 7th order sounds the most precise, which is why I am using IEM at the time.

I am especially interested in "blurring" mono sources into "a general direction", which worked very well with the ATK diffuser/spreader.

Thanks!
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Old 02-22-2018, 03:46 PM   #28
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Since ambisonics is all about the direction , it seems counterintuitive to me for a desire to reduce the directivity more of the time. Apart from simply decreasing the radius, you can also upscale mono to stereo via LOSER psuedostereo & place that at the sides, or even L & R. Placing music L&R only is fine too.

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Old 02-22-2018, 03:51 PM   #29
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Since ambisonics is all about the direction , it seems counterintuitive to me for a desire to reduce the directivity more of the time. Apart from simply decreasing the radius, you can also upscale mono to stereo via LOSER psuedostereo & place that at the sides, or even L & R. Placing music L&R only is fine too.

Also ReaDave: Check your PMs
Thanks for the food for thought! Maybe multiple stereo encoders could do the trick.

Imagine being underneath a tree in VR, I would love to "layer" diffused sounds up there, instead of placing many, many, many individual sounds to create an illusion of a "sound cloud", which falls apart as soon as the listener is too close and can hear the individual sources spatially.

I know, extreme scenario and probably other ways to do it. It's just something that I put into my head to try out for HOAs.

The FB360 suite has a "spread" control for sounds and I'd love to have full manual control like we have with the awesome ATK.
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:27 PM   #30
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Imagine being underneath a tree in VR, I would love to "layer" diffused sounds up there, instead of placing many, many, many individual sounds to create an illusion of a "sound cloud", which falls apart as soon as the listener is too close and can hear the individual sources spatially.

I know, extreme scenario and probably other ways to do it. It's just something that I put into my head to try out for HOAs.

The FB360 suite has a "spread" control for sounds and I'd love to have full manual control like we have with the awesome ATK.
You want a 1oa Panner. 1oa is blurrier than 3oa. This is exactly what I do for my music projects. If I want to blur, i use a 1oa instead of 3.

Although I haven't used FB360 much, the spread control might lower the HOAs bringing 2.6oa down to 1oa. It should be a very simple job.

Just axe ch 5+ or make your track 4ch wide. If you need more blur, turn down XYZ too.

And even then, under a tree there might be some very directional birds above.

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Old 02-24-2018, 02:59 AM   #31
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Thanks for the tips! I am already using IEM, actually just used the room encoder! (Also they released an update a few hours ago. I will take a look at the BlueRipple core suite. Are 3rd Order precise enough for you? I Feel like 7th order sounds the most precise, which is why I am using IEM at the time.

I am especially interested in "blurring" mono sources into "a general direction", which worked very well with the ATK diffuser/spreader.

Thanks!
What are you using currently to monitor your Ambisonic mixes? I'm using a cube array of Auratone 5c cubes and four EV DL15W subwoofers. Using the Blue Ripple cube decoder, I find directional cues to be very good in third order. I haven't tried anything higher because I don't have any suitable cube decoders.

Thanks too for the tip on the update.

I must send Daniel from IEM an email. He set up a cube decoder configuration file for me but only first order. He mentioned that there are errors when using higher orders and decoding to a cube. I must ask him about those because the Blue Ripple one works really well in third order.
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Got it.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:50 PM   #32
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Thanks for pointing me to IEM ReaDave. They seem like a very good addition.

I use the BlueRipple TOA Harpex upsampler. It allows me to use the ATK tools and (fairly) effectively increase my resolution to TOA with the Harpex system. It's expensive, no question. At the same time it opens up all kinds of new possibilities.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:21 AM   #33
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Thanks for pointing me to IEM ReaDave. They seem like a very good addition.
Just passing on what was passed on to me.
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I use the BlueRipple TOA Harpex upsampler. It allows me to use the ATK tools and (fairly) effectively increase my resolution to TOA with the Harpex system. It's expensive, no question. At the same time it opens up all kinds of new possibilities.
That sounds like a good workflow. It also makes bussing simpler since 1st order is four channels rather than the 16 needed for 3rd order.

I was close to purchasing the Harpex stuff myself but decided to go with Blue Ripple upmixers and decoders instead.

Harpex is particularly good though when inserting 1st order live B format mic recordings into a HOA mix. I might still purchase it once I've got a good Ambisonic mic.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:32 PM   #34
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I was close to purchasing the Harpex stuff myself but decided to go with Blue Ripple upmixers and decoders instead.

Harpex is particularly good though when inserting 1st order live B format mic recordings into a HOA mix. I might still purchase it once I've got a good Ambisonic mic.
Funny, I probably would have gone with the upmixers and decoders if I didn't have a coresound tetramic setup already. I can possibly justify the expense if clients ever start asking for delivery in some of those higher channel count surround formats.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:34 AM   #35
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Funny, I probably would have gone with the upmixers and decoders if I didn't have a coresound tetramic setup already. I can possibly justify the expense if clients ever start asking for delivery in some of those higher channel count surround formats.
Now if we could combine our resources, we'd have all bases covered!

I've had the Tetramic on my shortlist for a while now. The only thing that has held me back is that I'm really looking for something with a native B format output to run directly into my Sound Devices 744T. The only serious option in that category that has four line outputs in B format is the Soundfield ST450 II which is around $10K here in Australia and way out of my budget at this point.

Now that Soundfield has been purchased by Freedman (Rode Microphones parent company), they are working on a Rode Soundfield Videomic with B format output for around 1/10th the price. I'm eagerly awaiting that release. Last time I spoke to them on the phone, they said they were aiming for early this year (2018).
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Old 02-26-2018, 04:22 PM   #36
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The only thing that has held me back is that I'm really looking for something with a native B format .... The only serious option in that category that has four line outputs in B format is the Soundfield ST450 II
See https://www.reddit.com/r/SpatialAudi...tools/dq40768/
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Old 02-26-2018, 06:53 PM   #37
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Now if we could combine our resources, we'd have all bases covered!

I've had the Tetramic on my shortlist for a while now. The only thing that has held me back is that I'm really looking for something with a native B format output to run directly into my Sound Devices 744T.
That Sound Devices 744T is a lovely bit of kit. If you were free to purchase the cheaper zoom f4 or f8 they both support real time monitor of A-format signals. I have my eye on an f4 so perhaps that Blue Ripple upmixers and decoders might have to wait.
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Old 02-27-2018, 12:31 AM   #38
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I got the email about the Waves Ambisonic stuff. It is great to see them putting their feet in the water but at present, they are only offering 1st order. I already have all those bases covered in 3rd order with the Blue Ripple purchases I've made.
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Old 02-27-2018, 12:36 AM   #39
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That Sound Devices 744T is a lovely bit of kit. If you were free to purchase the cheaper zoom f4 or f8 they both support real time monitor of A-format signals. I have my eye on an f4 so perhaps that Blue Ripple upmixers and decoders might have to wait.
That's very interesting that Zoom have A format decoding built in. I'm going to wait and see what comes of the Rode Soundfield mic though. Even if it is a mic level B format output and not line level, it is no big deal for me to design a high quality four channel mic preamp to go with it. The 744T has very nice preamps but only two of them. It has four line inputs though and it has B format decoding for headphone monitoring built in.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:40 PM   #40
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Just to say. I've got a guy in the UK who is making his first 2nd order mic (but he makes other custom mics for sale too so he knows his stuff!)

He should be done with calibration and decoding software etc on it in the next few weeks.

I'll let you guys know how it went (when I have it in my hands) and if he's up for making more then I'll pass on his details I can't say price yet as this was a bit cheaper than he might sell them for normally but will say that the zoom f8 and the mic was definitely worth getting over say the sennheiser mic!

Got a zoom f8 to go with it as the sound devices only had 4 ins and the zoom can Gang all 8 ins. It's also as quiet as the sound devices we have so win win!

Will do a review once I have it.

Side note.. Any advice on on decoding ambisonics without buying the official dolby decoder. Looking for a digital solution to go with my speakers.

The height speakers will also be nice for ambisonics too!
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