Old 12-26-2016, 03:54 AM   #1
Dimson
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Default Short notes when copying

When copying there are short fragments of notes. Though length of notes has been established precisely on a grid

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Old 12-26-2016, 05:50 AM   #2
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Some guys should really learn that MIDI events work at MIDI Ticks..
and AUDIO at samples..
The Time length of such an MIDI Tick depends at the PPQ (Item or project) and the tempo in BPM
The length of such an MIDI Tick in AUDIO samples depend at the above and the project sample rate.

Within any REAPER MIDI Editor, like the PIANO ROLL, it would be now easy possible to complete disable the snapping and the events would always snap at a minimum of 1 MIDI TICK
(Inside this item ).
Within the arrange view this would not happen.
So If you work with MIDI items, you should avoid to disable the snap within the arrange view. Moving items, create items etc. pp
Especially avoid to disable the snap within arrange "time"line, if you resize the left edge of MIDI items!
Because the left edge is the start reference point for tick 0.

Withing your example some events lengths ends were not at 2.2.(like you said:"precisely on a grid" They were longer...

I can´t confirm this.... If your "short"event would mean a length of 0?

Within my lice (same BPM like you 125, same position, same copying...
I can easy disable the snap within Piano Roll, draw some notes and after that I copy 2.2.-2.3 to 3.1.00 with time selection and at the End all it is as it should be... incl. notes which should end with a length of only 1 Tick..

Even if I would disable the snapping in the Arrange view completely and resize the left edge without snap, REAPER would not create zero events anymore
(As old(er) REAPER versions had done with so many ways & so many times before ) ..
Neither when copying nor after cutting/split.
Within the editor + time to project beats and at least one event, you would now be able to see very precisely (Editor beatline), that the actual item itself (left edge) starts no longer exactly on a MIDI tick position

SRY but here,
In relation to the one described by you, there is simply no bug.
I cant confirm.

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Old 12-26-2016, 06:07 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
Some guys should really learn that MIDI events work at MIDI Ticks..
and AUDIO at samples..
The Time length of such an MIDI Tick depends at the PPQ (Item or project) and the tempo in BPM
The length of such an MIDI Tick in AUDIO samples depend at the above and the project sample rate.

Within any REAPER MIDI Editor, like the PIANO ROLL, it would be now easy possible to complete disable the snapping and the events would always snap at a minimum of 1 MIDI TICK
(Inside this item ).
Within the arrange view this would not happen.
So If you work with MIDI items, you should avoid to disable the snap within the arrange view. Moving items, create items etc. pp
Especially avoid to disable the snap within arrange "time"line, if you resize the left edge of MIDI items!
Because the left edge is the start reference point for tick 0.

Withing your example some events lengths ends were not at 2.2.(like you said:"precisely on a grid" They were longer...

I can´t confirm this.... If your "short"event would mean a length of 0?

Within my lice (same BPM like you 125, same position, same copying...
I can easy disable the snap within Piano Roll, draw some notes and after that I copy 2.2.-2.3 to 3.1.00 with time selection and at the End all it is as it should be... incl. notes which should end with a length of only 1 Tick..

Even if I would disable the snapping in the Arrange view completely and resize the left edge without snap, REAPER would not create zero events anymore
(As old(er) REAPER versions had done with so many ways & so many times before ) ..
Neither when copying nor after cutting/split.
Within the editor + time to project beats and at least one event, you would now be able to see very precisely (Editor beatline), that the actual item itself (left edge) starts no longer exactly on a MIDI tick position

SRY but here,
In relation to the one described by you, there is simply no bug.
I cant confirm.

No, it is developers responsibility to make sure illogical issues like that don't happen.
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Old 12-26-2016, 06:21 AM   #4
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ELP, why I shall consider these nuances in work? There is a grid, I want that everything moved on a grid and was copied on a grid! Or make that it at least visually looked as if it moves on a grid. You try to convince me that two plus two not equally in four. I didn't notice such behavior in other editors. Doubtful know-how


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Old 12-26-2016, 07:58 AM   #5
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"MikComposer: No, it is developers responsibility to make sure illogical issues like that don't happen."

This would at the End mean nothing but restrictions
Why is it for example not possible with others to work with multi PPQs?
(Different MIDI resolutions per item)
Or the simple pretending of false facts .. as others often do.
What the user does not know does not make him hot!

Personally I do not want this..

You dont find another DAW at the market which is so flexible with MIDI events as REAPER.
And with the help of scripts and or especially with JSFX I can simply do everything I want,

and absolutely nothing is glossed!!!!

That is what I want and also expect from an No1 Environment, like REAPER is..
--------
@Dimson
Could you please attach exactly your example as one rpp, please?
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Old 12-26-2016, 08:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
"MikComposer: No, it is developers responsibility to make sure illogical issues like that don't happen."

This would at the End mean nothing but restrictions
Why is it for example not possible with others to work with multi PPQs?
(Different MIDI resolutions per item)
Or the simple pretending of false facts .. as others often do.
What the user does not know does not make him hot!

Personally I do not want this..

You dont find another DAW at the market which is so flexible with MIDI events as REAPER.
And with the help of scripts and or especially with JSFX I can simply do everything I want,

and absolutely nothing is glossed!!!!

That is what I want and also expect from an No1 Environment, like REAPER is..
--------
@Dimson
Could you please attach exactly your example as one rpp, please?
Your post indicate to me that you are a hobbyist. Are you? If you want to be really and I mean really precise, maybe you should start composing in ASCII? In real world scenario you got to meet your deadlines. And even if you don't, you want to have music finished fast, not get distracted. You want to stay focus on music. Any additional and unnecessary micromanagement gets in the way of actually completing the project, will make your inspiration go away too. And in reaper there is shit ton of those unnecessary ones.
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Old 12-26-2016, 08:06 AM   #7
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ELP, at the reaper there are a lot of advantages in comparison with other programs, nobody argues with it. But why to change what got used decades to? You didn't think why for example the compass reached our days in an invariable look? Yes because, people got used to it. And the grid it is also a compass. And now it looks as "Don't trust the eyes".
Attached Files
File Type: zip Test.zip (1.6 KB, 15 views)

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Old 12-26-2016, 10:10 AM   #8
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"MikComposer: that you are a hobbyist."

Short answer: I´m not.
but the complete answer would be: I am, at the end, both.

BTW. I am really wondering why a guy like you still stays here..
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Old 12-26-2016, 10:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
"MikComposer: that you are a hobbyist."

Short answer: I´m not.
but the complete answer would be: I am, at the end, both.

BTW. I am really wondering why a guy like you still stays here..
Because I can.
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:11 AM   #10
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Surprisingly, I don't think this has to do with ticks. (Dimson's item seems to be nicely aligned with ticks.)

It is actually a display bug: the note-off falls exactly on the edge of the visible part of the item, but instead of assigning the note-off to the invisible part of the item, together with the note-on, REAPER assigns the note-off to the visible part. So the note-off peeks out like a zero-length note.

Once the item's moved edges are glued, the note-off will disappear. Remember that, if the time-selection-part of an item is copied as in the OP, the entire item is actually copied non-destructively.

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Old 12-26-2016, 11:20 AM   #11
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Surprisingly, I don't think this has to do with ticks. (Dimson's item seems to be nicely aligned with ticks.)

It is actually a display bug: the note-off falls exactly on the edge of the visible part of the item, but instead of assigning the note-off to the invisible part of the item, together with the note-on, REAPER assigns the note-off to the visible part.

If the item's moved edges are glued, the note-off will disappear.
You're right. In the past it used to trigger sound, but I just checked and it doesn't. Everyone assumes that if they see a note on the grid, it will play. Regardless, it shouldn't be visible.

Also, got to say this, but we are still alpha testing and alpha evaluating reaper - we don't know if something is a bug, a feature, is it suppose to be helpful or not,is it design mistake or not. But i also feel there is too much trying to reinvent the wheel unnecessarily. Instead of thinking up big ideas and forefront design concepts, we are focusing on little pieces of poopoo, cause someone didn't tidy before we came in.
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:22 AM   #12
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yes Julian this has nothing to do with tick snap or copying, zero event neither would these artifact do something like trigger Notes... it is as Julian already wrote and that is the only bad news which I have to admit

it is an display error..

Occurs if the left item edge begin at NOTE OFF positions..

Display error confirmed, Dimson .

And thanks for the attached upload. Make it often easier


but really only display.
and yes, Should be fixed, please Devs



Perhaps for the first time occur since these last option added, that Velocities can also be displayed on inactive items. hmm
Something I would never ever use.
Nerves me already that if I disable Velocity displaying at events,
that all velocity labels for all notes within item pops up if i change only one note.
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:30 AM   #13
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ELP how do you turn on notes pitch n the notes?
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:41 AM   #14
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Editor
Menu
/View/Piano Roll Notes/ Show note names on notes

Action: Toggle Note names on Note.
Default Key:
ALT+0 (not the numpad 0 )
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:42 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by ELP View Post
Editor
Menu
/View/Piano Roll Notes/ Show note names on notes
How it is that Pitch display option is in actions list, but pitch is in what... preferences, or some other menu?

Edit@ Found it, selected it, can't see shit.

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Old 12-26-2016, 11:53 AM   #16
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what?

From within the Midi editor under the Menu VIEW....

and of course also within the action list

it is one per editor :track/project or item option..

--
You have to of course zoom in vertically ..a little bit
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
... Found it, selected it, can't see ...
You need a certain zoom level for that.
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ELP View Post
what?

From within the Midi editor under the Menu VIEW....

and of course also within the action list

it is one per editor :track/project or item option
I don't understand what you're saying now. You can see on the pic the option is on, but notes have no names displayed.
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:56 AM   #19
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You need a certain zoom level for that.
^^ ...
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:56 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by AugerJ View Post
You need a certain zoom level for that.
Oh. Velocity didn't need certain zoom level. Eh, whatever.
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Old 12-26-2016, 12:01 PM   #21
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How to stop REAPER from voluntarily inserting Note On messages?
You split the item, not the notes.
If there were no Note On messages at some particular spot in the original item, why does REAPER feel obliged to create them for you. Is REAPER composing now?
Chasing notes shouldn't lead to creating them.

Maybe that's a core problem...

Cubase and Logic don't create notes at the object split points. They may keep or cut them, but not create.
And it seems right.

Upd.
Turns out, the 3d option appeared — yep, 'split' ... Added, obviously, for folks that are used to REAPER )

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Old 12-26-2016, 12:03 PM   #22
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How to stop REAPER from voluntarily inserting Note On messages?
You split the item, not the notes.
If there were no Note On messages at some particular spot in the original item, why does REAPER feel obliged to create them for you. Is REAPER composing now?
Chasing notes shouldn't lead to creating them.

Maybe that's a core problem...

Cubase and Logic don't create notes at the object split points. They may keep or cut them, but not create.
And it seems right.
Cubase works fine. It doesn't cut notes, and it doesn't even shrink them. They are the length they were before cut, and they play as such, even thought they go beyond the midi item. Very practical and sensible.
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Old 12-26-2016, 12:08 PM   #23
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Oh. Velocity didn't need certain zoom level...
Actually, the same level...
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Old 12-26-2016, 12:18 PM   #24
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Actually, the same level...
Right.
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Old 12-26-2016, 12:19 PM   #25
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Cubase works fine. It doesn't cut notes, and it doesn't even shrink them. They are the length they were before cut, and they play as such, even thought they go beyond the midi item. Very practical and sensible.
In Logic it's a 'Keep' option. The other one is 'Shorten' (notes get cut where the object splits).
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Old 12-26-2016, 12:28 PM   #26
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In Logic it's a 'Keep' option. The other one is 'Shorten' (notes get cut where the object splits).
Didn't do split ( could do nor thought ) http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=21
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Old 12-26-2016, 12:41 PM   #27
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Didn't do split ( could do nor thought ) http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=21
This might draw your interest:
https://vk.com/doc268187830_43931962...54f4f2fdfb2c5d
https://github.com/me2beats/rea-me2/...t%29%201.1.lua
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Old 12-26-2016, 12:42 PM   #28
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Nope. I know this action and this is another work around that reuires way too much input from the user.


Here's splitting in cubase http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=23
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Old 12-26-2016, 05:22 PM   #29
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come on guys you could easy and exactly emulate such an behavior.

The dark notes after splitting are the muted once which would be normally -
before splitting- the Notes which are at e-Cursor in between ON to OFF events..
If someone now would say it is too complicated... it need at EDIT-Level
just one key-press or say two key presses- or whatever you would prefer instead of Keys^^

-at least If you know how things work with REAPER.


This is exactly the same behavior..


----
BTW.And if needed you can of course also easy un-muting and joining events together..
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Old 12-26-2016, 05:28 PM   #30
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come on guys you could easy and exactly emulate such an behavior.

The dark notes after splitting are the muted once which would be normally -
before splitting- the Notes which are at e-Cursor in between ON to OFF events..
If someone now would say it is too complicated... it need at EDIT-Level
just one key-press or say two key presses- or whatever you would prefer instead of Keys^^

-at least If you know how things work with REAPER.


This is exactly the same behavior..


----
BTW.And if needed you can of course also easy un-muting and joining events together..
I don't think we are on the same page or I dont have a clue what's happening on this picture or both. It's more about the fact that notes don't get split or that hidden notes also play. Als got to note that in reaper there are circumstances when item behind another wont play notes at all.
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Old 12-26-2016, 05:54 PM   #31
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do you now that there is an global or also possible per item option that items should always mix...?
You better should activate this together with MIDI items..
--
It is the same like cubase did... with the difference that cubase or Logic dont show you that actually the Notes would be virtually splittet.
Meaning at the split point one NOTE OFF event occur and at the right side,
the rest of this note-time, is simply muted
Otherwise it wont never work.
Or you like it that events Note On-to OFF plays til end; no matter if the item right side is lower or not? Which would nothing else as kept notes^^

However the above lice show you an exactly emulation of Steinis or logics possible splitting option. the muted split notes, the rest time, would never play

---------------

But we should not forget why this thread is created..
This actually displaying bug can of course easy occur if someone split items at position were NOTE Offs are
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Old 12-26-2016, 06:03 PM   #32
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do you now that there is an global or also possible per item option that items should always mix...?
You better should activate this together with MIDI items..
--
It is the same like cubase did... with the difference that cubase or Logic dont show you that actually the Notes would be virtually splittet.
Meaning at the split point one NOTE OFF event occur and at the right side,
the rest of this note-time, is simply muted
Otherwise it wont never work.
Or you like it that events Note On-to OFF plays til end; no matter if the item right side is lower or not? Which would nothing else as kept notes^^

However the above lice show you an exactly emulation of Steinis or logics possible splitting option. the muted split notes, the rest time, would never play

---------------

But we should not forget why this thread is created..
This actually displaying bug can of course easy occur if someone split items at position were NOTE Offs are
Sorry to tell you, but you seam bit drunk, and I can't get what you're trying to say.

Yes, thread is about note's butts sticking out unnecessarily confusing us. Brought up cubase split, because cubase default is not splitting notes, and actually not only keeps them, but allows to insert notes outside midi item zone and it will still play them, which is extremely useful. You say there is a global option for items mix, but try having two items same length, with different music, one on top of another and see it that works? Also, having them mix creates cc conflicts, were in cubase cc's of invisible part of midi items don't seam to interfere.
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Old 12-26-2016, 11:32 PM   #33
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Two things, Mik: OP is not a native english speaker, as you should well know, and your comment frankly annoyed the shit out of me. Gratuitously insulting.
We are all pretty used to your somewhat acerbic style, but do us all a favour and keep it polite.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:41 AM   #34
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... The dark notes after splitting are the muted once which would be normally -
before splitting- the Notes which are at e-Cursor in between ON to OFF events..

How exactly do you get notes' 'endings' muted?
Could you explain it in greater detail, step by step?

Item mixing options don't seem to have anything to do with this behavior.
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Old 12-27-2016, 06:02 AM   #35
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Two things, Mik: OP is not a native english speaker, as you should well know, and your comment frankly annoyed the shit out of me. Gratuitously insulting.
We are all pretty used to your somewhat acerbic style, but do us all a favour and keep it polite.
Just because compared someones writing to being drunk? Cmon man, what offensive about that? Not only it was Christmas so is expected people might get drunk, it was just a joke. I'd never get offended with comment like that, would laugh and try better, and I'd think so would others.
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Old 12-27-2016, 06:40 AM   #36
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Thank you Ivan but basically it does not matter if English is my language or not.
Even if English would the main,
it is as it always is:
Even simple things are usually already too high for M.C.

-
All what he believe, what Steini seems to make/ or not make,
can easily "doing/emulate" with REAPER.

Except one: should events trigger, they must be at least visible within the item(s).
(Meaning:The item size must be great enough)
BTW:
the reason why Steini trigger also OFF events which are not there anymore(item) has one complete other reason.. It is only one of steinis mechanism to avoid stucks at moving items during playback.. steini cached
NOTE ON-microticks-NOTE OFF-events (+port/track/timelineposition) as "one internal MIDI event" instead of two events
..
It is for USER simply not visible, like many other internal MIDI doings... also
__________________
I hope you can understand me? Without german beer my written english is always very bad, with beer it becomes unbearable!.
Less is more! To much limited the own creativity.

Last edited by ELP; 12-27-2016 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 12-27-2016, 09:19 AM   #37
AugerJ
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
...
All what he believe, what Steini seems to make/ or not make,
can easily "doing/emulate" with REAPER.
If it's so simple, as you say, why won't you provide a clear, easy to understand step-by-step instruction, how any user can do it in REAPER?

Last edited by AugerJ; 12-27-2016 at 09:49 AM.
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