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Old 03-09-2018, 09:29 AM   #881
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Hi Geoff

Thanks for posting the pre-alphas. First one is working ok- track names appear in upper part of display, banking and channel chugging are fine (if a little weird at first, as you can bank right off the display!).

I followed your instructions for pinning the master to the MCU's master fader and that works fine (with the caveat that you have to double click a project file to restore it) No crashes so far

Second alpha loses all the display (upper and lower rows) so have stayed with first.

Trying to get some action out of the C4. I created the folders shown in the pic:

C4.axt contains:
RotaryPushA1 SetShowFXWindows

Track/C4.axt contains:
TrackOnSelection MapTrackAndFXToWidgets

ReaEQ.fxt contains:
VST: ReaEQ (Cockos)
RotaryC1 Freq-Low Shelf
RotaryD1 Gain-Low Shelf
RotaryPushA2 Bypass

CSI.ini contains:
MidiInMonitor Off
MidiOutMonitor Off
VSTMonitor On

RealSurface MCU 9 1 6 6 MCU.rst
RealSurface C4 1 0 7 7 C4.rst

Layout DefLayout
Zone DefZone Yes
VirtualSurface MCU MCU C4
VirtualSurface C4 C4 C4

All I can get to work is show/hide the fx window (RotaryPushA1) and Bypass (RotaryPushA2). but this only bypasses it won't un-bypass. The ReaEQ LF Freq and LF Gain do nothing.

The MIDI monitor shows the correct messages coming from the C4 (and the fact that RotaryPush A1 works seems to suggest the connections are OK). Any ideas?

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the bankable check box in the edit window doesn't do anything, the only way I could de-select it (and have it stick) was to edit CSI.ini and change the 1 to a 0.

Last edited by MixMonkey; 08-06-2019 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 03-09-2018, 09:44 AM   #882
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I'm just starting to try this out, unfortunately i don't understand a lot of the processes under the surface.

I'm using a Qcon pro (would love to add a midifighter twister later for controlling plugins).

Whatever, this morning i installed the last version of CSI, and the second row of the display perfectly showed the volume levels. Now i installed the latest version and it doesn't use the second row anymore.

Other things i stumbled over with the first try:

-The jog- and zoom sections don't do anything.

-With Reaper's standard MCU protocol i could assign any available buttons that send out midi for Actions in the Action list. That doesn't work (although the midi-indicator on the Qcon shows midi out).

Can it be because of using the Logic mode of the Qcon? I can't just select a 'standard MCU mode' (if something like that exists or makes sense).

The pinning works as described and is saved with the project, including the Masterfader, I LOVE IT!!
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Old 03-09-2018, 09:51 AM   #883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
While we're on the subject,

What way would you suggest configuring the set up of Layout/Zone/Virtualsurface to allow all FX parameters to be controlled on the C4. On a channel by channel basis.
I would suggest the method we were discussing before where you dedicate certain rows to certain functions, I think we talked about putting the Gate on the last row.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
Further down the line is there a way to have it control all the ins and outs. So if I pressed Global View - Inputs Button (90 3F 00 7f) on the MCU it would show the inputs on the C4 and I could then change them with the corresponding knob?
That's exactly the kind of thing we'll be adding after we get this stable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
No values at all on display just name. but also on the good side no MASTER in lower half of strip1.
Did you make sure to use the new MCU .axt files ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
Also with MASTER Pinned to 9, if you singleR track 1 jumps from strip1 to strip 3. singleL moves it onto strip2, but after that first jump of 2 it moves singly as expected.
Only when Master is Pinned. As the master moved as expected to 9 before pinning.
Noted.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:01 AM   #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Hi Geoff

Thanks for posting the pre-alphas. First one is working ok- track names appear in upper part of display, banking and channel chugging are fine (if a little weird at first, as you can bank right off the display!).
You should only be able to bank to the edges, that is, there should always be a channel visible at one end or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
I followed your instructions for pinning the master to the MCU's master fader and that works fine (with the caveat that you have to double click a project file to restore it) No crashes so far
In the latest build you should be able to load via the menu as well and have it work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Second alpha loses all the display (upper and lower rows) so have stayed with first.
You need to use the new .axt files, just installing the dll/dylib is not enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Trying to get some action out of the C4. I created the folders shown in the pic:

C4.axt contains:
RotaryPushA1 SetShowFXWindows

Track/C4.axt contains:
TrackOnSelection MapTrackAndFXToWidgets

ReaEQ.fxt contains:
VST: ReaEQ (Cockos)
RotaryC1 Freq-Low Shelf
RotaryD1 Gain-Low Shelf
RotaryPushA2 Bypass

CSI.ini contains:
MidiInMonitor Off
MidiOutMonitor Off
VSTMonitor On

RealSurface MCU 9 1 6 6 MCU.rst
RealSurface C4 1 0 7 7 C4.rst

Layout DefLayout
Zone DefZone Yes
VirtualSurface MCU MCU C4
VirtualSurface C4 C4 C4

All I can get to work is show/hide the fx window (RotaryPushA1) and Bypass (RotaryPushA2). but this only bypasses it won't un-bypass. The ReaEQ LF Freq and LF Gain do nothing.

The MIDI monitor shows the correct messages coming from the C4 (and the fact that RotaryPush A1 works seems to suggest the connections are OK). Any ideas?
Hmmm.... at a quick glance this looks good, maybe post the .rst you are using.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the bankable check box in the edit window doesn't do anything, the only way I could de-select it (and have it stick) was to edit CSI.ini and change the 1 to a 0.
Noted.
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Last edited by Geoff Waddington; 03-09-2018 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:08 AM   #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou latch View Post
I'm just starting to try this out, unfortunately i don't understand a lot of the processes under the surface.

I'm using a Qcon pro (would love to add a midifighter twister later for controlling plugins).

Whatever, this morning i installed the last version of CSI, and the second row of the display perfectly showed the volume levels. Now i installed the latest version and it doesn't use the second row anymore.
You need to use the latest .axt files.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lou latch View Post
Other things i stumbled over with the first try:

-The jog- and zoom sections don't do anything.
Correct, to be implemented

Quote:
Originally Posted by lou latch View Post
-With Reaper's standard MCU protocol i could assign any available buttons that send out midi for Actions in the Action list. That doesn't work (although the midi-indicator on the Qcon shows midi out).
You use templates to do that in this system, have a look at MCU.axt towards the end for examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lou latch View Post
Can it be because of using the Logic mode of the Qcon? I can't just select a 'standard MCU mode' (if something like that exists or makes sense).

The pinning works as described and is saved with the project, including the Masterfader, I LOVE IT!!
Logic mode is probably fine for now, glad you like the Pin feature
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:18 AM   #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
You need to use the latest .axt files.
Thanks for your answers!

I'm definitely using the new .axt files, i replaced the complete CSI folder.

EDIT: I just reinstalled the older Version to doublecheck and actually the volume levels were shown in the upper row and not the lower row. That'd work for me, but sure it would be nice to have it in the second row
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:45 AM   #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I would suggest the method we were discussing before where you dedicate certain rows to certain functions, I think we talked about putting the Gate on the last row.
Sorry I meant I terms of the Config window and zones.
Rather than specifics of the .Fxt files.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:53 AM   #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
Sorry I meant I terms of the Config window and zones.
Rather than specifics of the .Fxt files.
Ahh gotcha, haven't even thought about that stuff, up to you and your workflow.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:56 AM   #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou latch View Post
Thanks for your answers!

I'm definitely using the new .axt files, i replaced the complete CSI folder.

EDIT: I just reinstalled the older Version to doublecheck and actually the volume levels were shown in the upper row and not the lower row. That'd work for me, but sure it would be nice to have it in the second row
Argh !! There was a code bug AND a template bug, new build is up that should correct things: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/33037/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:11 AM   #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
All I can get to work is show/hide the fx window (RotaryPushA1) and Bypass (RotaryPushA2). but this only bypasses it won't un-bypass. The ReaEQ LF Freq and LF Gain do nothing.

The MIDI monitor shows the correct messages coming from the C4 (and the fact that RotaryPush A1 works seems to suggest the connections are OK). Any ideas?
Uh-oh, I obviously recently broke something, the Console1 doesn't work anymore either, it has the same behaviour as your C4, so hang tight this is just a bug...

Will let you know when it's fixed.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:08 PM   #891
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New pre-alpha working Had to also replace MCU.rst with new version before anything appeared on the screen (as well as MCU.axt)

Track banking was in 20's for some reason (I guess you have 20 faders!) so changed back to 8 and reversed the button direction to better suit my setup.

Looks great with stuff on both rows of the display!!
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:20 PM   #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Argh !! There was a code bug AND a template bug, new build is up that should correct things: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/33037/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip
YES! That works.

Some details:

-By default the lower row now shows pan. When pushing the rotary encoder the display switches to show width. But only when opening a session freshly. When the button was pushed to change from pan to width once, it doesn't switch anymore when pushing. The good thing is that it does switch as soon as i turn the encoder.

-Physical channel 1 on my controller doesn't allow me to change the mode - nothing happens when pushing the encoder, no matter which reaper track is on channel 1 at the moment.

Also, if channel 1 is selected, it get deselected when the encoder is pushed.

Minor detail: Width value is sometimes 1 step below the value displayed in reaper. If width in reaper is 73 it might be 72 on my controller. Nothing that bothers me, but i thought i mention it.

All in all pretty awesome!
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:22 PM   #893
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Another detail (probably related to 'only changing panorama mode when pushed for the first time after a fresh session start'):

When touching (not moving) a fader in a freshly loaded session the lower row displays the fader value. Nice!
But this only works once with my system, whenever i touch a fader without moving it after the first time it won't show the value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
New pre-alpha working
Track banking was in 20's for some reason (I guess you have 20 faders!) so changed back to 8 and reversed the button direction to better suit my setup.
Ha, that's the 2 things i did a few times today, too!

:-)

Last edited by lou latch; 03-09-2018 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:48 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou latch View Post
YES! That works.

Some details:

-By default the lower row now shows pan. When pushing the rotary encoder the display switches to show width. But only when opening a session freshly. When the button was pushed to change from pan to width once, it doesn't switch anymore when pushing. The good thing is that it does switch as soon as i turn the encoder.

-Physical channel 1 on my controller doesn't allow me to change the mode - nothing happens when pushing the encoder, no matter which reaper track is on channel 1 at the moment.

Also, if channel 1 is selected, it get deselected when the encoder is pushed.

Minor detail: Width value is sometimes 1 step below the value displayed in reaper. If width in reaper is 73 it might be 72 on my controller. Nothing that bothers me, but i thought i mention it.

All in all pretty awesome!
I can confirm and elaborate on Lou's post about strip 1,
Without the MASTER Pinned to 9
when you have any track /Strip selected and push the pan, it selects track 8 which is on Strip 9

If I move the tracks so track 3 in on Strip 1, track 11 is selected when pan is pushed, again this is on the master strip.

With MASTER Pinned to 9
when you have any track /Strip selected and push the pan on strip 1, it selects the MASTER Strip.


Could it be something to do with strip 9 not having a disply?
Reason being, before you got the lower display row working,
When I moved the master to strip 9,(to pin)
The name MASTER would move acroos the top row, when I got to 9 (the actual master fader) it was displayed on the bottom row of Strip 1.

Last edited by Freex; 03-09-2018 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:21 PM   #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixMonkey View Post
Hi Geoff

Trying to get some action out of the C4. I created the folders shown in the pic:
I used

ChanStrip Reaper _S&M_TOGLFXCHAIN

in C4.axt

Also these work quite well,for changing selected channel, and moving slots in FX window.

TrackL Reaper _XENAKIOS_SELPREVTRACK

TrackR Reaper _XENAKIOS_SELNEXTTRACK


SlotUp Reaper _S&M_SELFXPREV
SlotDown Reaper _S&M_SELFXNEXT


But can't get anything to display or control via the knobs.


Geoff, would there need to be some strip display params in the C4.axt
Like the MCU it has 2 rows displays.

Last edited by Freex; 03-10-2018 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:29 PM   #896
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New build is up: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/33037/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip

FX should work now, try your C4 again.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:33 PM   #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
I can confirm and elaborate on Lou's post about strip 1,
Without the MASTER Pinned to 9
when you have any track /Strip selected and push the pan, it selects track 8 which is on Strip 9

If I move the tracks so track 3 in on Strip 1, track 11 is selected when pan is pushed, again this is on the master strip.

With MASTER Pinned to 9
when you have any track /Strip selected and push the pan on strip 1, it selects the MASTER Strip.


Could it be something to do with strip 9 not having a disply?
Reason being, before you got the lower display row working,
When I moved the master to strip 9,(to pin)
The name MASTER would move acroos the top row, when I got to 9 (the actual master fader) it was displayed on the bottom row of Strip 1.
Noted, will look into it.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:39 PM   #898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
I used

ChanStrip Reaper _S&M_TOGLFXCHAIN

in C4.axt

Also these work quite well,for changing selected channel, and moving slots in FX window.

TrackL Reaper _XENAKIOS_SELPREVTRACK

TrackR Reaper _XENAKIOS_SELNEXTTRACK


SlotUp Reaper _S&M_SELFXPREV
SlotDown Reaper _S&M_SELFXNEXT


But can get anything to display or control via the knobs.


Geoff, would there need to be some strip display params in the C4.axt
Like the MCU it has 2 rows displays.
Cool, like your slots actions.

Try the new build and see if it works.

As far as displays, not implemented yet.

Don't work too hard on C4 templates guys, whilst thinking about displays, it seems a channel approach might work better here, might redesign how it works, such is the nature of pre alpha...
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:18 AM   #899
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Worth Noting (for C4 users)

in the C4.rst should be

-----------------------Modifiers

Shift ButtonWithRelease 90 0D 00 7f
Option ButtonWithRelease 90 0E 00 7f
Control ButtonWithRelease 90 0F 00 7f
Alt ButtonWithRelease 90 10 00 7f
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Old 03-10-2018, 04:07 AM   #900
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If you're reading this post, lucky you !

You get to see inside the geeky, nerdy, way down in the weeds shit we programmers go through every day

First, I will be changing the name of Layout to Layer.

So you will now have Layer->Zone->VirtualSurface->Widgets.

Been thinking about the previous conversations in this thread on the C4 and other matrix type controllers.

There has always seemed to be an impedance mismatch, a friction with the design, when we've been discussing matrix based controllers like the C4.

I think it's because we haven't got the right model yet.

So.....

We need to represent a bunch of widgets gathered together.

Channel is good, but too specialized.

Let's call our new concept Cluster -- please feel free to step in with the "winning word" for this one.

A Channel is an example of a Cluster.

A Channel is also arranged in a Layout, linear horizontal, from left to right.

We need to separate these concepts.

So a Channel is one offspring of a Cluster.

On the C4 a Cluster example would be:

Cluster A1
DisplayUpper
DisplayLower
Rotary
Rotary Push
ClusterEnd

Clusters are then arranged in a Layout -- it is generally true (for useful configurations) that a Layout makes visual and logical sense, from a control/parameter viewpoint.

So we now have:

Layer->Zone->VirtualSurface->Layout->Cluster->Widgets.

For things like the buttons on the right of the MCU the Clusters could be things like:
Cluster FunctionKeys
F1
F2
F3
...
ClusterEnd

Cluster Automation
Trim
Read
...
ClusterEnd

Cluster Modifiers
Shift
Option
Control
Alt
ClusterEnd
...

For things like the Console1:

Cluster Compressor
Threshold
Attack
Release
Ratio
...
ClusterEnd

Cluster Input ...
Cluster Gate ...
Cluster EQ ...
Cluster Output ...



And of course the Channel Cluster:
DisplayUpper
DisplayLower
Rotary
Rotary Push
Fader
FaderTouch
RecArm
Solo
Mute
Select

Layout will allow us arbitrary logical layouts (including ones that span pages of the C4, MCU, etc.),

That's the goal anyway.

All comments, thoughts, suggestions, more than welcomed.
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Old 03-10-2018, 04:44 AM   #901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
If you're reading this post, lucky you !

You get to see inside the geeky, nerdy, way down in the weeds shit we programmers go through every day

First, I will be changing the name of Layout to Layer.

So you will now have Layer->Zone->VirtualSurface->Widgets.

Been thinking about the previous conversations in this thread on the C4 and other matrix type controllers.

There has always seemed to be an impedance mismatch, a friction with the design, when we've been discussing matrix based controllers like the C4.

I think it's because we haven't got the right model yet.

So.....

We need to represent a bunch of widgets gathered together.

Channel is good, but too specialized.

Let's call our new concept Cluster -- please feel free to step in with the "winning word" for this one.

A Channel is an example of a Cluster.

A Channel is also arranged in a Layout, linear horizontal, from left to right.

We need to separate these concepts.

So a Channel is one offspring of a Cluster.

On the C4 a Cluster example would be:

Cluster A1
DisplayUpper
DisplayLower
Rotary
Rotary Push
ClusterEnd

Clusters are then arranged in a Layout -- it is generally true (for useful configurations) that a Layout makes visual and logical sense, from a control/parameter viewpoint.

So we now have:

Layer->Zone->VirtualSurface->Layout->Cluster->Widgets.

For things like the buttons on the right of the MCU the Clusters could be things like:
Cluster FunctionKeys
F1
F2
F3
...
ClusterEnd

Cluster Automation
Trim
Read
...
ClusterEnd

Cluster Modifiers
Shift
Option
Control
Alt
ClusterEnd
...

For things like the Console1:

Cluster Compressor
Threshold
Attack
Release
Ratio
...
ClusterEnd

Cluster Input ...
Cluster Gate ...
Cluster EQ ...
Cluster Output ...



And of course the Channel Cluster:
DisplayUpper
DisplayLower
Rotary
Rotary Push
Fader
FaderTouch
RecArm
Solo
Mute
Select

Layout will allow us arbitrary logical layouts (including ones that span pages of the C4, MCU, etc.),

That's the goal anyway.

All comments, thoughts, suggestions, more than welcomed.

I like Cluster, it does what it say...good choice.

and my little bit of ocd finds the example "clusters" very satisfying.

Last edited by Freex; 03-10-2018 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 03-10-2018, 05:46 AM   #902
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At work at the mo' will try new build when I get home.

Like the idea of 'cluster' -sounds flexible enough to cater for all the different surface arrangements. Plus they were a very cool German electronic band in the early 70's (Berlin School)

Plus when we all make the inevitable syntax mistakes it'll be a cluster f***
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:43 AM   #903
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I tried the new build but couldn't get anything on the knobs of the C4.

But the again, chair ( ) keyboard, could be at play again.

With the show vst params enabled, when I add a plugin it prints twice, is that normal/expected?
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:01 AM   #904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
With the show vst params enabled, when I add a plugin it prints twice, is that normal/expected?
Yup, that's a low priority bug, I'll get to it... someday
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:41 AM   #905
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Yup, that's a low priority bug, I'll get to it... someday
No worries, wasn't sure if it had something to do with the C4 not work.
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:44 PM   #906
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Thanks to all for the good feedback, looks like there is some more design work to do.

So, good folks out there, feel free to play around, but don't invest too much time in building templates, things may change radically with the redesign.
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:32 AM   #907
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I'll post a list ASAP.
Here it is:

Code sent by Behringer XTouch Compct in MC Mode.

Notes:
Faders return to Zero when no data I received.
No LED indication when no data is received.

Some Rotaries send codes according to rotation speed, some only send "up" and "down" codes.

Some Rotaries' pushes are not sent.

Some Rotaries' turnings are not sent.

Only Fader touch release is dedicatedly sent, Fader touch seems to repeats the current fader position (hard to test, as the fader returns to Zero when released).

The "Layer" Buttons are sent.

I can't test wow the device reacts to data sent. I suppose it should move faders and set LEDs with the Rotaries and the buttons.

Code:
Label	Function	No	MCP	No	
						Faders return to Zero when no data I received
	Fader Slide 1	        Fader	1	E0 00 00 … E0 00 7E / E0 7F 7F
		2			2	E1 00 00 … E1 00 7E / E1 7F 7F
		3			3	E2 00 00 … E2 00 7E / E2 7F 7F
		4			4	E3 00 00 … E3 00 7E / E3 7F 7F
	        5			5	E4 00 00 … E4 00 7E / E4 7F 7F
		6			6	E5 00 00 … E5 00 7E / E5 7F 7F
		7			7	E6 00 00 … E6 00 7E / E6 7F 7F
		8			8	E7 00 00 … E7 00 7E / E7 7F 7F
		9			Master	E8 00 00 … E8 00 7E / E8 7F 7F
						
	Fader Touch 1	         Fader	1	Same as Fader move / 90 68 00
		2			2	Same as Fader move / 90 69 00
		3			3	Same as Fader move / 90 6A 00
		4			4	Same as Fader move / 90 6B 00
		5			5	Same as Fader move / 90 6C 00
		6			6	Same as Fader move / 90 6D 00
		7			7	Same as Fader move / 90 6E 00
		8			8	Same as Fader move / 90 6F 00
		9			Master	Same as Fader move / 90 70 00
						
						No LED indication when no data is received
1	Rotrary A 1	          VPOT	1	B0 10 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 10 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
2		2			2	B0 11 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 11 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
3		3			3	B0 12 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 12 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
4		4			4	B0 13 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 13 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
5		5			5	B0 14 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 14 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
6		6			6	B0 15 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 15 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
7		7			7	B0 16 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 16 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
8		8			8	B0 17 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 17 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
9		9		---		
10		10		---		
						
1	Rotary A Push 1	        VPOT	1	90 20 00 / 7F
2		2			2	90 21 00 / 7F
3		3			3	90 22 00 / 7F
4		4			4	90 23 00 / 7F
5		5			5	90 24 00 / 7F
6		6			6	90 25 00 / 7F
7		7			7	90 26 00 / 7F
8		8			8	90 27 00 / 7F
9		9		Track		90 28 00 / 7F
10		10		Send		90 29 00 / 7F
						
11	Rotrary B 1	        ---		
12		2		---		
						
11	Rotary B Push 1	        PAN		90 2A 00 / 7F
12		2		PLUG-IN		90 2B 00 / 7F
						
13	Rotrary C 1	        ---		
14		2		---		
						
13	Rotary C Push 1	        EQ		90 2C 00 / 7F
14		2		INSTR		90 2D 00 / 7F
						
15	Rotrary D 1	        BANK		90 2E 00 (down) 90 2F 00 (up) (not speed sensitive)
16		2		CHNL		90 30 00 (down) 90 31 00 (up) (not speed sensitive)
						
15	Rotary D Push 1	        ---		
16		2		---		
						
						No LED indication when no data is received
	Button A 1	        SOLO	1	90 08 00 / 7F
		2			2	90 09 00 / 7F
		3			3	90 0A 00 / 7F
		4			4	90 0B 00 / 7F
		5			5	90 0C 00 / 7F
		6			6	90 0D 00 / 7F
		7			7	90 0E 00 / 7F
		8			8	90 0F 00 / 7F
						
	Button B 1	         MUTE	1	90 10 00 / 7F
		2			2	90 11 00 / 7F
		3			3	90 12 00 / 7F
		4			4	90 13 00 / 7F
		5			5	90 14 00 / 7F
		6			6	90 15 00 / 7F
		7			7	90 16 00 / 7F
		8			8	90 17 00 / 7F
						
	Button C 1	         SELECT	1	90 18 00 / 7F
		2			2	90 19 00 / 7F
		3			3	90 1A 00 / 7F
		4			4	90 1B 00 / 7F
		5			5	90 1C 00 / 7F
		6			6	90 1D 00 / 7F
		7			7	90 1E 00 / 7F
		8			8	90 1F 00 / 7F
						
◄◄	Button D 1	         ◄◄		90 5B 00 / 7F
►►		2		 ►►		90 5C 00 / 7F
						
Loop	Button E 1	         CYCLE		90 56 00 / 7F
●		2		 ●		90 FB 00 / 7F
						
■	Button F 1	         ■		90 5D 00 / 7F
►		2		 ►		90 5F 00 / 7F
						
1	Button G 1	         REC	1	90 00 00 / 7F
2		2			2	90 01 00 / 7F
3		3			3	90 02 00 / 7F
4		4			4	90 03 00 / 7F
5		5			5	90 04 00 / 7F
6		6			6	90 05 00 / 7F
7		7			7	90 06 00 / 7F
8		8			8	90 07 00 / 7F
[]		9		FLIP		90 32 00 / 7F
Layer A		10		MARKER		90 54 00 / 7F
Layer B		11		NUDGE		90 55 00 / 7F
-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-11-2018 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:25 AM   #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Here it is:

Code sent by Behringer XTouch Compct in MC Mode.

Notes:
Faders return to Zero when no data I received.
No LED indication when no data is received.

Some Rotaries send codes according to rotation speed, some only send "up" and "down" codes.

Some Rotaries' pushes are not sent.

Some Rotaries' turnings are not sent.

Only Fader touch release is dedicatedly sent, Fader touch seems to repeats the current fader position (hard to test, as the fader returns to Zero when released).

The "Layer" Buttons are sent.

I can't test wow the device reacts to data sent. I suppose it should move faders and set LEDs with the Rotaries and the buttons.

Code:
Label	Function	No	MCP	No	
						Faders return to Zero when no data I received
	Fader Slide 1	        Fader	1	E0 00 00 … E0 00 7E / E0 7F 7F
		2			2	E1 00 00 … E1 00 7E / E1 7F 7F
		3			3	E2 00 00 … E2 00 7E / E2 7F 7F
		4			4	E3 00 00 … E3 00 7E / E3 7F 7F
	        5			5	E4 00 00 … E4 00 7E / E4 7F 7F
		6			6	E5 00 00 … E5 00 7E / E5 7F 7F
		7			7	E6 00 00 … E6 00 7E / E6 7F 7F
		8			8	E7 00 00 … E7 00 7E / E7 7F 7F
		9			Master	E8 00 00 … E8 00 7E / E8 7F 7F
						
	Fader Touch 1	         Fader	1	Same as Fader move / 90 68 00
		2			2	Same as Fader move / 90 69 00
		3			3	Same as Fader move / 90 6A 00
		4			4	Same as Fader move / 90 6B 00
		5			5	Same as Fader move / 90 6C 00
		6			6	Same as Fader move / 90 6D 00
		7			7	Same as Fader move / 90 6E 00
		8			8	Same as Fader move / 90 6F 00
		9			Master	Same as Fader move / 90 70 00
						
						No LED indication when no data is received
1	Rotrary A 1	          VPOT	1	B0 10 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 10 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
2		2			2	B0 11 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 11 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
3		3			3	B0 12 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 12 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
4		4			4	B0 13 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 13 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
5		5			5	B0 14 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 14 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
6		6			6	B0 15 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 15 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
7		7			7	B0 16 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 16 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
8		8			8	B0 17 41 (42, 43,  … down) / B0 17 01 (02, 03, … up) according to turning speed
9		9		---		
10		10		---		
						
1	Rotary A Push 1	        VPOT	1	90 20 00 / 7F
2		2			2	90 21 00 / 7F
3		3			3	90 22 00 / 7F
4		4			4	90 23 00 / 7F
5		5			5	90 24 00 / 7F
6		6			6	90 25 00 / 7F
7		7			7	90 26 00 / 7F
8		8			8	90 27 00 / 7F
9		9		Track		90 28 00 / 7F
10		10		Send		90 29 00 / 7F
						
11	Rotrary B 1	        ---		
12		2		---		
						
11	Rotary B Push 1	        PAN		90 2A 00 / 7F
12		2		PLUG-IN		90 2B 00 / 7F
						
13	Rotrary C 1	        ---		
14		2		---		
						
13	Rotary C Push 1	        EQ		90 2C 00 / 7F
14		2		INSTR		90 2D 00 / 7F
						
15	Rotrary D 1	        BANK		90 2E 00 (down) 90 2F 00 (up) (not speed sensitive)
16		2		CHNL		90 30 00 (down) 90 31 00 (up) (not speed sensitive)
						
15	Rotary D Push 1	        ---		
16		2		---		
						
						No LED indication when no data is received
	Button A 1	        SOLO	1	90 08 00 / 7F
		2			2	90 09 00 / 7F
		3			3	90 0A 00 / 7F
		4			4	90 0B 00 / 7F
		5			5	90 0C 00 / 7F
		6			6	90 0D 00 / 7F
		7			7	90 0E 00 / 7F
		8			8	90 0F 00 / 7F
						
	Button B 1	         MUTE	1	90 10 00 / 7F
		2			2	90 11 00 / 7F
		3			3	90 12 00 / 7F
		4			4	90 13 00 / 7F
		5			5	90 14 00 / 7F
		6			6	90 15 00 / 7F
		7			7	90 16 00 / 7F
		8			8	90 17 00 / 7F
						
	Button C 1	         SELECT	1	90 18 00 / 7F
		2			2	90 19 00 / 7F
		3			3	90 1A 00 / 7F
		4			4	90 1B 00 / 7F
		5			5	90 1C 00 / 7F
		6			6	90 1D 00 / 7F
		7			7	90 1E 00 / 7F
		8			8	90 1F 00 / 7F
						
◄◄	Button D 1	         ◄◄		90 5B 00 / 7F
►►		2		 ►►		90 5C 00 / 7F
						
Loop	Button E 1	         CYCLE		90 56 00 / 7F
●		2		 ●		90 FB 00 / 7F
						
■	Button F 1	         ■		90 5D 00 / 7F
►		2		 ►		90 5F 00 / 7F
						
1	Button G 1	         REC	1	90 00 00 / 7F
2		2			2	90 01 00 / 7F
3		3			3	90 02 00 / 7F
4		4			4	90 03 00 / 7F
5		5			5	90 04 00 / 7F
6		6			6	90 05 00 / 7F
7		7			7	90 06 00 / 7F
8		8			8	90 07 00 / 7F
[]		9		FLIP		90 32 00 / 7F
Layer A		10		MARKER		90 54 00 / 7F
Layer B		11		NUDGE		90 55 00 / 7F
-Michael
Had a quick glance, looks like there are a couple of errors in the doc, Record should be 5F not FB (no such thing as FB in a midi data byte) and Play should be 5e not 5F, if it is Mackie style, so I would say just:
Go into config
Add Real Surface -- name it, e.g. Mixer
Select MCU for the template
9 Faders
Make sure Bankable is checked
Midi I/O as appropriate

Remove all of the Virtual Surfaces
Add Virtual Surface -- select the one you named and select MCU for Action/FX templates.

Looks like you should get everything working except the upper right section of encoders.

When you have that, check back in and we'll add some Upper Right customization for the XTouch.
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:41 AM   #909
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Aha, think I get the problem, but not the solution... yet

The issue is that a widget is in several contexts simultaneously.

Simple container hierarchies like:

Layer->Zone->VirtualSurface->Layout->Cluster->Widget

are somewhat arbitrary and don't really solve the problem.

Let's haul out the old set theory books for a sec.

Yeah, OK, so Widgets are simultaneously members of:
Zone set -- Banking, Modifiers like Shift, etc.
Layout set -- position on Virtual Surface map
Cluster set -- affinity to other widgets, e.g. Matrix Location B3

etc.

Hmmm.... methinks there is a Pattern for this IIRC...

Little Sunday morning reading...
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Old 03-11-2018, 05:53 AM   #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
(no such thing as FB in a midi data byte)
Obviously

... And Play is 5E !

I forgot to check the "Expression Pedal" and the "Foot switch":
Pedal: B0 2e 00..7F
FS: 90 66 00 / 7F


Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Looks like you should get everything working except the upper right section of encoders.
Great !

What exactly do you mean by "upper right section of encoders" ? I suppose this refers to an original Mackie device (which I never saw yet.) Can you give a type name so that I can look it up ?

Seemingly you suggest to stay in Mackie mode for the time being. OK. Let's do that. At a later time we can try to get the stuff working in "native" mode.
The software would need to react very different at certain points:
- The faders don't move back automatically
- The Rotaries don't send "speed" but position and automatically update their position in the LEDs. We could choose several modes of LED-Display (called "Single", "Pan", "Fan", "Spread" and "Trim" also the LED rings can blink.
- Does the Mackie feature button LEDs ? With the XControl they can be set to on, off, and blink, and they are automatically toggled when pressing a button.

We should try to talk Behringer in doing a software update that allows for having the layer buttons send some code. (In standard mode the code to be sent / received for any control is programmable.)

BTW. The XTouch can receive a message to switch MC mode on and off (CC 127 on a definable channel). So I suppose with your software we could automatically switch it to MC, and with my "Live" software I could automatically switch it to "Standard" mode.

BTW/2:

Is this funny behavior of the Fades values really correct : 0, 1, 2, ... 125, 126, 16383 ? What is that useful for.

(Due to sending incremental values) the rotaries can be higher Resolution then 127 in MC mode, but not in standard mode. But the Faders have only 128 steps in both modes.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-11-2018 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:59 AM   #911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
What exactly do you mean by "upper right section of encoders" ?
I mean the 4 rows of 2 encoders on your XTouch, they're the only things that won't work right away.

Have you tried to get it going ?
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Old 03-11-2018, 09:44 AM   #912
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What sort of messages do you get from the x-control when you're not in "Mackie Mode" (I'm using that term rather than MCP (Mackie Control Protocol) only because of the Mixer Control Panel is also MCP)

This is a picture of the Mackie XT, XT, MCU and C4

https://1mc51l3v9iyu3otpsg36nnvf-wpe...-MCU-Pro-5.jpg

G
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:13 PM   #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I mean the 4 rows of 2 encoders on your XTouch, they're the only things that won't work right away.

Have you tried to get it going ?
Their messages in MC mode are in the List I posted, called A8, A9, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2

In MC mode, six only send Push messages and two o,ly send turn messages. Don't you think these will work as their "MCP-Names suggest ?

I fear there might be useful control elements on the Mackie device that are not covered by the List, though.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-11-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:16 PM   #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
BTW/2:

Is this funny behavior of the Fades values really correct : 0, 1, 2, ... 125, 126, 16383 ? What is that useful for.
Obviously this is a 14 Bit value sent in "low 7 bits first" manner.

Does the Mackie device really send a higher resolution than 7 Bits ?

If so, what to do about this when using a worse controller such as the XControl ?

-Michael
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:30 PM   #915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freex View Post
What sort of messages do you get from the x-control when you're not in "Mackie Mode" (I'm using that term rather than MCP (Mackie Control Protocol) only because of the Mixer Control Panel is also MCP)
With the XControl it's called "MC Mode". There is an [MC] button to activate/deactivate it.

In Non-MC mode, I can use an editor software, and for any control element I can define the Midi message sent (type (e.g. CC, Pitch Bend, Program Change Note On/Off, with buttons pusches, touches even MCP messages.) Midi Channel, CC # (if appropriate). Toggls or momentary for Buttons, Touches, or pushes, Min and Max Value, ..., And for encoders the kind of the LED ring display.

And this independently for Layer A and B.

But it can't do incremental mode for rotaries, nor more than 7 Bits for sliders or rotaries, nor assign messages to the two "layer" buttons.


-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-11-2018 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 03-11-2018, 10:40 PM   #916
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Quote:
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I'd love to have a small text display to go along with the XTouch compact .

-Michael
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Old 03-12-2018, 01:51 AM   #917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Their messages in MC mode are in the List I posted, called A8, A9, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2

In MC mode, six only send Push messages and two o,ly send turn messages. Don't you think these will work as their "MCP-Names suggest ?

I fear there might be useful control elements on the Mackie device that are not covered by the List, though.

-Michael
Yeah, the MCU has a pretty full feature set and a lot of buttons -- over 50 not counting the channel ones.

You can map those rotaries any way you want, but i believe you're right, we really should switch to native mode and make a template.

If you can find/generate the template for the XTouch Compact in native mode that would be a great help.

Don't worry about getting the naming convention exact, it's the midi messages that are important.
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Old 03-12-2018, 01:53 AM   #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Obviously this is a 14 Bit value sent in "low 7 bits first" manner.

Does the Mackie device really send a higher resolution than 7 Bits ?

If so, what to do about this when using a worse controller such as the XControl ?

-Michael
Thanks for reminding me, I need to build a widget for that type.

Meanwhile, it will work just fine, even with that weird 14 bit value (16384) at the end of the range.
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Old 03-12-2018, 02:22 AM   #919
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Ok, it's starting to become a bit more clear.

I'll post my thoughts about the re-design process here, blog style, so that people can chime in with good ideas as we go.

The notion of Cluster is cool for things like Channel.

The notion of Bank or Shift is cool for things like Zone.

The notion of Layout is cool for things like Virtual Surface Channel order/placement.

The realization is that Widgets live in a "sea" of contexts, not a nice linear container style hierarchy.

When you ask a question about a Widget's Shift status, you want to ask its current Zone-ness.

When you want to a question about a Widget's Channel position, you want ask its current Layout-ness in the horizontal direction.

So, a Widget ends up with a list of Contexts, and corresponding lists of pertinent questions/operations for each Context.

As far as Virtual Surface Layout, we already have horizontal Layout (Channels), we just have to add vertical for matrix style controllers like the C4, etc.

Now we still have the 3rd dimension, depth.

If you think about it, a Layer and an FX template are really the same thing, they represent a certain mapping of Widgets to Actions/FX parameters.

So, switching Layers, switching FX, etc., is really just a switch in the depth dimension.

Each layer in the depth dimension comes with it's own set of contexts (Zone, Layout, etc.)

Still pondering...
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Last edited by Geoff Waddington; 03-12-2018 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:56 AM   #920
Freex
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From what I'm reading are we talking about Layers being like pages in a book,
and depth being like the page or page number?

Kinda like with the way they used to make cartoons, on acetates?

Where you could have layer upon layer building the picture?
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