|
|
|
08-17-2017, 05:26 AM
|
#1
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
Hey Guys - Question about fast midi keyboard playing
So I get these annoying pops\glitches while playing fast, but wait - I made some tests and it doesn't clear as you might think (latency).
Facts:
- I use a midi keyboard (Nektar Lx+ 61) to a computer built in sound card (Realtek HD) via USB. I have intel i7, blue lake motherboard, 16 Giga Ram.
- I only get those "pops" in fast licks playing. The funny thing is that I try to record the same lick and play it in -slow BPM- and it sounds ok, but when I'm increasing the playback tempo (after I already recorded) I hear the pops again.
- I get this pops on some vst's more than others. Especially the free ones. I'm suspecting it's maybe the quality of the VST.
- I'm using Asio4all as a driver, and I tried every configuration excited, it's really nothing to do with the driver or latency I believe (especially again as I record in slow tempo it's ok, and then increasing the playback tempo and it pops).
I tried other drivers, different midi keyboard and computer - only the Vst's, it still pop's in high tempo's.
How do eliminate the cause of this?
Is it really the quality of the vst's?
As anyone has a free Vst's he used with fast playing that sounded great for me to check?
I'm trying to make music from free stuff, but I agree to pay the price of expensive stuff if it solves the problem.
I also willing to buy an external sound card, it just that I find it hard to know the exact problem here.
Many thanks!
Ori
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 05:34 AM
|
#2
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
It might be that your processor is struggling to keep up with polyphony count. The faster you play, the more simultaneous notes have to be processed. You can get a rough idea of CPU use from the bottom left of the fx window.
And yes, some software instruments use more CPU than others, though price is not a factor in that. An audio interface will have zero effect on this.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 06:06 AM
|
#3
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
Hi Oridoron7,
I have not experienced what you describe even with Core 2 or i5 or i7 quad core CPUs with the vast majority of VSTs.
I have used a Creative X-Fi ASIO and also WASAPI with external soundcard with the i5 and i7 three CPUs.
What buffer latency settings for ASIO and in Reaper what "request block size"?
Options>Preferences>Audio>Device
Also
What i7?
What VST?
What software?
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 06:08 AM
|
#4
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,290
|
My guess is that a proper audio interface will fix all your problems.
__________________
"F" off.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 06:19 AM
|
#5
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,781
|
Built in sound cards are know to create a lot of trouble. They are especially not recommended for live playing.
-Michael
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 06:31 AM
|
#6
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Built in sound cards are know to create a lot of trouble. They are especially not recommended for live playing.
-Michael
|
How would the speed of playing affect audio buffering? If the problems lies in the sound card, how does the rate of midi input affect it?
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 06:37 AM
|
#7
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,290
|
Not sure about the exact problem here.
Only the most common solution.
I, myself, have never had a problem with fast midi playing but then I have always had a proper audio interface and never relied upon a stock computer interface.
ALL of my VST's and VSTi's, whether free or paid for, work perfectly, as far as midi and sound are concerned.
__________________
"F" off.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 06:43 AM
|
#8
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
Relevant article:
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...udio-interface
"Setting the correct buffer size is crucial to achieving optimum performance from your audio interface: if it's too small you'll suffer audio clicks and pops, while if it's too large you'll encounter audible delays when performing in real time"
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 07:04 AM
|
#9
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
......
Thanks you all guys!!! It feels great to get so many feedbacks in short time! Salute!
Now to the problem.
I 'll et home and give the specific secs of my computer (as I remember it 64 bit win on I7, with 16 RAM, using the the built in sound card).
Some of you mentioned the buffer size (which I tried to put even to maximum), but I want to make it clear again again that:
I tried to recorded in slow tempo and it sounded ok.
Than I took the what I recorded and increased it's speed, and than I got again the "pops". So the buffer size of asio shouldn't have nothing to do with it, isn't?
"Judders" - You said the processor might find it hard keep with polyphony count. I'll check the cpu.
But will I do if the CPU's gets high? I have I7 processor I'll thought it would be ok for fast licks on piano :-/ I also have enough RAM don't I? Why will I need to do if this is the case?
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 07:18 AM
|
#10
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridoron7
Thanks you all guys!!! It feels great to get so many feedbacks in short time! Salute!
Now to the problem.
I 'll et home and give the specific secs of my computer (as I remember it 64 bit win on I7, with 16 RAM, using the the built in sound card).
Some of you mentioned the buffer size (which I tried to put even to maximum), but I want to make it clear again again that:
I tried to recorded in slow tempo and it sounded ok.
Than I took the what I recorded and increased it's speed, and than I got again the "pops". So the buffer size of asio shouldn't have nothing to do with it, isn't?
"Judders" - You said the processor might find it hard keep with polyphony count. I'll check the cpu.
But will I do if the CPU's gets high? I have I7 processor I'll thought it would be ok for fast licks on piano :-/ I also have enough RAM don't I? Why will I need to do if this is the case?
|
i7 should cope without problems, and you've got plenty of RAM.
I have a Mac as my DAW machine, so there's stuff about Windows audio drivers that I don't get.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 09:00 AM
|
#11
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
i7 should cope without problems, and you've got plenty of RAM.
I have a Mac as my DAW machine, so there's stuff about Windows audio drivers that I don't get.
|
Unbelivable!!!
I just connected the keyboard to my dying IPAD MINI 1, and it works great...!
Ok I'm going to put my pc full specs here, and the CPU'S tests result and hope to find an answer...
Thank's guys!!!
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 09:26 AM
|
#12
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Arcachon, France
Posts: 435
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
It might be that your processor is struggling to keep up with polyphony count. The faster you play, the more simultaneous notes have to be processed. You can get a rough idea of CPU use from the bottom left of the fx window.
And yes, some software instruments use more CPU than others, though price is not a factor in that. An audio interface will have zero effect on this.
|
Now that it works on a different platform, a software issue is the most likely source of the problem.
It doesn't work with certain VSTi's but it works with the app in your iPad. I would start there. Check polyphony count. Check how Note On and Note Off events are handled. Things like that.
While I don't believe your current audio interface is the problem, a dedicated sound card with good quality in-house developed ASIO drivers would be one of the best inexpensive upgrades you could make to your DAW.
__________________
Intel i9, 32 GB RAM, 7 TB SSD; Win 11 Pro; PreSonus Studio 1810c
Studio One 6 Pro; MuseScore 4; Melodyne 5 Studio; Acoustica Pro 7; Reaper 7
Gig Performer 4; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro, DT 770 Pro
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 09:34 AM
|
#13
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Arcachon, France
Posts: 435
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridoron7
Unbelivable!!!
I just connected the keyboard to my dying IPAD MINI 1, and it works great...!
Ok I'm going to put my pc full specs here, and the CPU'S tests result and hope to find an answer...
Thank's guys!!!
|
You can put your specs (hardware and main software) in your signature, so you'll never have to type it in again when you ask a question.
Click on "User CP" in the menu bar above and then on "Edit Signature" in the "Settings & Options" submenu.
__________________
Intel i9, 32 GB RAM, 7 TB SSD; Win 11 Pro; PreSonus Studio 1810c
Studio One 6 Pro; MuseScore 4; Melodyne 5 Studio; Acoustica Pro 7; Reaper 7
Gig Performer 4; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro, DT 770 Pro
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 10:06 AM
|
#14
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
....
Ok, I'M WRITING THIS REPLY FOR AN HOUR, GATHERING ALL THE INFORMATION I CAN FIND!
Specs:
System Manufacturer: Intel
Model: DH67CL__
Processor: Intel® Core ™ i7-2600k CPU @ 3.40GHz (8CPUs) - Sandy Bridge
1 Processor, 4 cores, 8 threads. South Bridge: Intel H67 B3
Ram: 8192 MB (I thought more, tell me if an upgrade will make a difference)
Page file: 4279MB used, 12057MB available
DirectX Version: DirectX 11
Nvidia GeForce GT 430, 4065 Mb
Speakers: Realtek High Definition Audio
Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit (6.1, build 7601). Service Pack 1
Speakes: MicroLab 2.1 connected to the computer through the green headphone jack output.
I have SPDIF output as well but the "MicroLab" system doesn't have any kind of input.
In Reaper, the "Request Block Size" was unchecked. I checked it now - it's on 256, still "pops".
I tried to put even 700, still "pops".
The Cpu's in the Fx stand's on 1.0% during the 1.5 sec of the fast lick.
I've attached a photo of my Asio4all driver setting
( )
I've used the piano of "DSK Acoustick Keyz" you can find it here:
http://www.dskmusic.com/dsk-akoustik-keyz/
(you'll find it on YouTube, sounds great)
And also u using free Vst's of "bigcat" he has a lot:
http://www.vst4free.com/index.php?de...at_Instruments
Hey there "TheMaartin", thanks for your comment!
You said:
" Now that it works on a different platform, a software issue is the most likely source of the problem.
It doesn't work with certain VSTi's but it works with the app in your iPad. I would start there. Check polyphony count. Check how Note On and Note Off events are handled. Things like that.
While I don't believe your current audio interface is the problem, a dedicated sound card with good quality in-house developed ASIO drivers would be one of the best inexpensive upgrades you could make to your DAW."
Couldn't it be still a hardware thing? I mean the Ipad Mini 1 still uses different components, isn't it?
I know I would buy a sound card if I want better results in any case (and I do).
I just really would like to solve this issue as I feel it develops my perception, and it drives me crazy not to find the real problem here.
BTW I've put my specs in my signature.
Thanks for your help again.
And thanks to everyone here tries to help me.
__________________
Intel i7-2600k CPU 3.40GHz (8CPUs) Sandy Bridge 1 Processor, 4 cores, 8 threads; South Bridge: Intel H67 B3 Ram: 8192 MB; Nvidia GeForce; Realtek High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit; Nektar Impact LX 61+. Drums: Roland Td 11kv
Last edited by oridoron7; 08-17-2017 at 10:39 AM.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 11:00 AM
|
#15
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
That CPU should cope with every single VSTi yet made (provided we aren't talking numerous instances of the most power hungry ones) It's not the CPU, that's still a respectable chip.
I suggest you get a good PCI express card or USB external sound device.
Alesis Core 1 is dirt cheap and works well on WASAPI.
Alternatively look for a SoundBlaster X-Fi titanium or similar X-Fi (not the rebranded Audigy - bottom of the range X-Fi isn't an X-Fi!!!).
That's an old card but a cheap option for a used buy.
Otherwise look at more professional soundcards or other USB device:
https://flubit.com/shop/p/FL5YEK3YW?...fc&fo_s=binggb
Lots to choose from.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 12:40 PM
|
#16
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
Thanks for the help "SoftSynth"
I didn't understand 1 thing though.
You recommended the Alesis core 1 USB right?
Well, isn't meant for instruments like guitars, bass or vocals?
It transfer analog signal via xlr/trs input, while I'm using a midi keyboard for my recordings.
Thanks
__________________
Intel i7-2600k CPU 3.40GHz (8CPUs) Sandy Bridge 1 Processor, 4 cores, 8 threads; South Bridge: Intel H67 B3 Ram: 8192 MB; Nvidia GeForce; Realtek High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit; Nektar Impact LX 61+. Drums: Roland Td 11kv
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 12:52 PM
|
#17
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridoron7
Thanks for the help "SoftSynth"
I didn't understand 1 thing though.
You recommended the Alesis core 1 USB right?
Well, isn't meant for instruments like guitars, bass or vocals?
It transfer analog signal via xlr/trs input, while I'm using a midi keyboard for my recordings.
Thanks
|
The Alesis Core 1 is a USB soundcard with inputs, it is cheap and effective (it comes with a basic version of Cubase too, so you can have a play with that). I output audio over my soundcard. Another option is to listen via headphones.
Like any other typical external sound devices on the market it has inputs for line inputs or microphones. However it also handles internal audio too, including sounds from VSTs.
If you do not want any external connectivity an internal PCI-E card will possibly suit you better.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 01:01 PM
|
#18
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth
The Alesis Core 1 is a USB soundcard with inputs, it is cheap and effective (it comes with a basic version of Cubase too, so you can have a play with that). I output audio over my soundcard. Another option is to listen via headphones.
Like any other typical external sound devices on the market it has inputs for line inputs or microphones. However it also handles internal audio too, including sounds from VSTs.
If you do not want any external connectivity an internal PCI-E card will possibly suit you better.
|
Bit of a gamble to buy it in the hopes that it will sort out the problem in the OP though, isn't it?
What's the technical reason behind this interface solving oridoron7's problem?
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 01:02 PM
|
#19
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
Sorry for being dummy here, but let me get this straight.
I connect my midi keyboard through USB to my computer USB hub, the computer translate the midi values I played, to the VST samples.
While that, the Alesis USB sound card is connected to the computer and gets the sound of the samples through the computer output (which output btw? Regular stereo headphone jack?), and of course the Alesis USB sound is the final station where I plug my headphones to?
I'm a bit confuse..
__________________
Intel i7-2600k CPU 3.40GHz (8CPUs) Sandy Bridge 1 Processor, 4 cores, 8 threads; South Bridge: Intel H67 B3 Ram: 8192 MB; Nvidia GeForce; Realtek High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit; Nektar Impact LX 61+. Drums: Roland Td 11kv
Last edited by oridoron7; 08-17-2017 at 01:09 PM.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 01:10 PM
|
#20
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
Bit of a gamble to buy it in the hopes that it will sort out the problem in the OP though, isn't it?
What's the technical reason behind this interface solving oridoron7's problem?
|
Dying to know the technical reason before any purchase too.
__________________
Intel i7-2600k CPU 3.40GHz (8CPUs) Sandy Bridge 1 Processor, 4 cores, 8 threads; South Bridge: Intel H67 B3 Ram: 8192 MB; Nvidia GeForce; Realtek High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit; Nektar Impact LX 61+. Drums: Roland Td 11kv
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 01:36 PM
|
#21
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridoron7
Dying to know the technical reason before any purchase too.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
Bit of a gamble to buy it in the hopes that it will sort out the problem in the OP though, isn't it?
What's the technical reason behind this interface solving oridoron7's problem?
|
I have supplied a useful SOS article that explains setup on a PC. It's old but still relevant.
If the problems with the PC persist after all the software/operating system issues have been exhausted (background processes running simultaneously and so on) and no luck then it looking at alternative soundcard hardware is the next step.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridoron7
Sorry for being dummy here, but let me get this straight.
I connect my midi keyboard through USB to my computer USB hub, the computer translate the midi values I played, to the VST samples.
While that, the Alesis USB sound card is connected to the computer and gets the sound of the samples through the computer output (which output btw? Regular stereo headphone jack?), and of course the Alesis USB sound is the final station where I plug my headphones to?
I'm a bit confuse..
|
In Reaper you choose the input and output device. Which can be the same device or a different device.
Reaper>Options>Preferences>Audio>Device.
Also here you can choose the type of driver. For the Alesis I swap to WASAPI.
For my X-Fi I use Creative ASIO.
You currently use the universal ASIO4all driver. It's known to have more issues than others. However I suggest you read the SOS and NI article below before spending anything. It could still be an optimization issue.
Native Instruments has a good page on PC audio optimization: https://support.native-instruments.c...dio-Processing
Others offer useful advice:
For you:
https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-...o-on-Windows-7
For others:
https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-...-on-Windows-10
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 01:41 PM
|
#22
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth
I have supplied a useful SOS article that explains setup on a PC. It's old but still relevant.
If the problems with the PC persist after all the software/operating system issues have been exhausted (background processes running simultaneously and so on) and no luck then it looking at alternative soundcard hardware is the next step.
In Reaper you choose the input and output device. Which can be the same device or a different device.
Reaper>Options>Preferences>Audio>Device.
Also here you can choose the type of driver. For the Alesis I swap to WASAPI.
For my X-Fi I use Creative ASIO.
You currently use the universal ASIO4all driver. It's known to have more issues than others. However I suggest you read the SOS and NI article below before spending anything. It could still be an optimization issue.
Native Instruments has a good page on PC audio optimization: https://support.native-instruments.c...dio-Processing
Others offer useful advice:
For you:
https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-...o-on-Windows-7
For others:
https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-...-on-Windows-10
|
But that doesn't address the OP's observation that it only happens when playing midi quickly, but does not happen when playing slowly.
This doesn't sound like an audio buffer problem, if the observation is correct.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 01:49 PM
|
#23
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
But that doesn't address the OP's observation that it only happens when playing midi quickly, but does not happen when playing slowly.
This doesn't sound like an audio buffer problem, if the observation is correct.
|
Judders I think you are being uncharacteristically unhelpful here. It cannot hurt for the OP to try the free Win7 optimizations suggested by NI, SOS and Focusrite!
After exhausting software/op sys solutions then consider the hardware.
it seems to me to be possibly a latency issue of some kind, if I am reading it correctly. The bit about sounding correct when slowed down sounds odd, however it is hard to diagnose anything, especially without optimization in the first place.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 01:57 PM
|
#24
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth
Judders I think you are being uncharacteristically unhelpful here. It cannot hurt for the OP to try the free Win7 optimizations suggested by NI, SOS and Focusrite!
After exhausting software/op sys solutions then consider the hardware.
it seems to me to be possibly a latency issue of some kind, if I am reading it correctly. The bit about sounding correct when slowed down sounds odd, however it is hard to diagnose anything, especially without optimization in the first place.
|
I'm not trying to be!
Of course the optimisation stuff is useful. It just seems like a couple of people are saying that a new audio interface will solve the OP's problem, when that doesn't appear to fit the symptoms.
I'm also wanting to know for my own knowledge, how this could be anything other than a CPU problem. I know it shouldn't be, given the OP's processor, but that's the only bottleneck I can think of, if the OP's observations are correct.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 02:26 PM
|
#25
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lucas, TX, USA (via Luleå, Sweden)
Posts: 2,009
|
I'm not an expert, but I agree with Judders.
As I understand it, the flow is:
MIDI Keyboard USB --> PC --> Reaper MIDI --> VST --> Reaper Audio --> Soundcard
I would think that the audio coming out of the VST is just a waveform. Whether it is one long note, or many sequential fast notes, or polyphony notes, it's just a wave. A reasonable soundcard shouldn't correctly play a waveform made up of slow notes but choke on a waveform made up of lots of polyphony/fast notes -- that just sounds unlikely to me.
I would like to hear a better description of the "pops/glitches". Maybe they're not soundcard problems, but are caused by MIDI getting mangled as it enters the PC (or possibly the VST, but the CPU specs seem to rule that out).
What if you put a MIDI JSFX logger on the input? Does it show that the MIDI is coming in as expected? Or are certain note on/off events aren't getting through correctly?
If you're not recording the MIDI, try doing that, and see if it looks correct in the MIDI editor. If it does, does it still give the glitches/pops when you play it into the VST?
What about trying a different VST? Do they all have this problem? Or just this particular one?
__________________
Best Regards, Ernie "lunker" Lundqvist
BDSM (Bad Dog Studio Musicians)
Windows 10 running on Z390 + i7-8700
Last edited by lunker; 08-17-2017 at 02:39 PM.
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 02:50 PM
|
#26
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
I offered up an optimization article first.
I have offered more optimization articles. Usually these offer tips on how to set up Windows for processor optimization. This is free advice from the manufacturers!
I suggest a hardware solution only after exhausting potential software issues.
If the PC is running fine with other tasks we can assume it is an audio optimization issue. Whether that is in the DAW, the Op Sys set up or conflicting processes and so on.
What else is left to try at this stage?
UPDATE:
This should be good news for the OP if he doesn't know how good piano VSTs can be.
I just tried the DSK Piano VST. It is the single worst sounding piano VST I have ever heard. It is peerlessly awful in my experience. Also the reverb section can create odd sounding FX. That is one truly awful and pointless VST, given far superior sound can be had for nothing.
If you don't want to spend any money get the free version of Sample Tank 3 and download the free sample pianos, night and day better than this!
Also download the demo version of Pianoteq. This is not a free product but it will show you what is possible.
Last edited by Softsynth; 08-17-2017 at 03:10 PM.
Reason: ADD note regarding VST
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 07:04 AM
|
#27
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
Ok, guys, I did what you asked me, it takes a time to do all that, so I couldn't respond fast.
1. I made all the optimisation "SoftSynth" links - thank's man. really appreciate that.
2. "Judders" I understand your view, me also want to find out where does it comes from. I think "SoftSynth" knows that onboard sound cards are usually unreliable, and to upgrade my system in the meanwhile would be great anyhow.
3. "lunker" - I did what you asked. The midi turns fine. I checked in the midi editor and in the logger.
4. "Softsynth" - I've downloaded sample tank 3 - sounds awesome.
I can't really tell if I'm hearing those "pops" anymore, as I try to play record fast as I can with stack notes in purpose, so It sometimes sounds ugly.
I really want to upgrade myself from the on board sound card, and I, of course, won't turn this into a recommendation post (I'm going to read anything the net has to offer me), but I just really don't understand how to use the USB sound card option as suggested (I prefer on an internal one).
I have a midi keyboard with USB out only (Nektar impact 61 LX+).
What do I connecting to what?
To my imagination, to make this all this process I a need a "USB in" and "USB out" in this device right?
One to connect the midi keyboard to, and one to deliver to the computer USB input?
__________________
Intel i7-2600k CPU 3.40GHz (8CPUs) Sandy Bridge 1 Processor, 4 cores, 8 threads; South Bridge: Intel H67 B3 Ram: 8192 MB; Nvidia GeForce; Realtek High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit; Nektar Impact LX 61+. Drums: Roland Td 11kv
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 07:13 AM
|
#28
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridoron7
I have a midi keyboard with USB out only (Nektar impact 61 LX+).
What do I connecting to what?
To my imagination, to make this all this process I a need a "USB in" and "USB out" in this device right?
One to connect the midi keyboard to, and one to deliver to the computer USB input?
|
No, you don't connect your USB midi device to the audio interface, that still plugs into your computer.
Remember that midi is not sound, it is purely information. The midi input goes into Reaper, then the software instrument outputs audio to your audio interface.
Some audio interfaces have midi connections, but as you're using a USB midi device we don't have to worry about that.
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 09:01 AM
|
#29
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dalriada
Posts: 13,367
|
I'm no expert, but here's my 2c anyway :
Just in case it isn't clear - soundcards/audio interfaces have buffers on both input (Analogue to Digital) and output (Digital to Analogue).
● I have it on good authortiy (from a thread I posted asking about MIDI to Audio timings/buffers) that the incoming MIDI has to align with the audio input buffer (as when a plugin is processing the contents of a buffer it can't accept new MIDI signals).
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=182499
So, from what I can tell, although MIDI doesn't actually pass through the audio input buffer, it is aligned and so audio input and output buffers are both important, as is the ability of your soundcard.
● Therefore athough there are many other factors (optimising your PC for audio etc) there could indeed be a problem with the soundcard/audio buffers under ASIO4all. That wouldn't be unusual.
(afaik Apple uses "Core Audio" which seemingly prioritises all things audio and MIDI in a way that Windows doesn't yet do [despite an outburst of optimism when Windows10 came out. Again ... afaik).
_
● So here's what I'd try before buying a proper audio interface (and incidentally you can run your MIDI through many audio interfaces providing of course that they have the MIDI ins/outs ... just that you're going through MIDI cables instead of USB) :
● Try a different USB port on your PC, and then try a different USB cable. It might well be one or the other and 'twould be silly not to try them.
● Make sure you got all the PC Optimisations done (or at least switch off your wifi and stop your antivirus).
● Try any of the suggestions from previous posters (including the Reaper MIDI events logger thing ... see thread I linked to).
● Scream
● Try an even bigger buffer than you did - mibby in the thousands rather than the hundreds.
● Try using one of Windows' native sound options (WASAPI or whatever)
● Try a different VSTi.
● Read this Sound On Sound article - it's well laid out and explains most of this stuff.
● See if you can get a decent-ish cheap interface on a "returns" basis ... and return it if you get no joy.
_
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 09:12 AM
|
#30
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
Seeing as Sample Tank seems to be working okay, it could just be a poorly optimised freebie software instrument that was causing the problem.
But Viscofisy raises a good point that midi jitter is dependent on the audio buffer size. That is a separate issue to software instruments causing pops and clicks on fast passages though.
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 01:42 PM
|
#31
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
"Judders" - Thank you for your explanation.
So I'm basically looking for an -External Sound Card- that has USB A-B input,
and headphones jack that I output the sound to the speakers(should for 1 with zero monitoring) right?
"viscofisy" - thank you, friend. I'm running all over your things to make sure I haven't forgotten to check something.
"Softsynth" - You were right, SampleTank does sound better.
Did you get low latency with your USB sound card + WASAPI driver?
Most of the recommendations on the web are talking nothing but USB sound card with native support in the Asio driver. Did you mean by saying Asio known for its issue regarding Asio4all (mothers board sound driver) or to external sound cards comes with Asio support?
Thank you all guys, you are great!!!
__________________
Intel i7-2600k CPU 3.40GHz (8CPUs) Sandy Bridge 1 Processor, 4 cores, 8 threads; South Bridge: Intel H67 B3 Ram: 8192 MB; Nvidia GeForce; Realtek High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit; Nektar Impact LX 61+. Drums: Roland Td 11kv
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 01:54 PM
|
#32
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 761
|
I use some DSK plugins as well. And I get the same sounds the OP is talking about. But I can them on a single note played.
I don't have a lot of midi stuff ( I am old and new to it). But the DSK is the only ones I ever have this problem with. They sound so good I just deal with it.
Windows 10
i7 4,4ghz
32gb 2400mhz ram
Nvidia 1060 6gb
Focusrite 18i20
Any paid midi vsti I have does not do this. And I think any of the free ones I have don't either. Just some DSK from time to time.
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 06:00 PM
|
#33
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridoron7
"Judders" - Thank you for your explanation.
So I'm basically looking for an -External Sound Card- that has USB A-B input,
and headphones jack that I output the sound to the speakers(should for 1 with zero monitoring) right?
"viscofisy" - thank you, friend. I'm running all over your things to make sure I haven't forgotten to check something.
"Softsynth" - You were right, SampleTank does sound better.
Did you get low latency with your USB sound card + WASAPI driver?
Most of the recommendations on the web are talking nothing but USB sound card with native support in the Asio driver. Did you mean by saying Asio known for its issue regarding Asio4all (mothers board sound driver) or to external sound cards comes with Asio support?
Thank you all guys, you are great!!!
|
Often an ASIO driver is the best option. It is typically the go to option. WASAPI performance has improved of late and works really well in the cheap 'n' cheerful Core 1, under Win10.
The external soundcard just has USB to connect to the computer. The USB MIDI keyboard still connects to your computer directly, not attached to the external soundcard. The inputs on the soundcard are line/Mic level.
I haven't had latency issues with either the SoundBlaster X-Fi or the Alesis Core however I can reduce the buffer settings to even smaller settings with the Core under win10. It's academic after a point. It is nice and responsive with either ASIO or WASAPI (using Core).
ASIO4all tends to only be a solution people use if their card manufacturer did not supply their own decent optimized drivers. It may be perfectly fine for lots of people's systems (complainers tend to be the most vocal users, not happy customers). I expect a lot of people use it with acceptable performance. A bit hit and miss going by forum comments (more hit than miss I imagine).
Going by an earlier post it sounds like you are trying to make it go wrong now!
If you don't have problems playing normally with ASIO4all with decent plugins don't sweat it. For instance if you press down sustain pedal and rush up and down the keyboard as fast as possible to max out polyphony that's not a real world way of playing, even if you are Jordan Rudess!
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 06:45 PM
|
#34
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 225
|
Hi oridoron7
There are a lot of options for setting up your DAW on Windows that
are better addressed regardless of whether you buy a new audio interface.
Here is a link to a document that outlines what kinds of problems occur
and how to resolve or prevent them.
Scroll down and use the first link on the left to download the pdf, its free.
https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree/
As regards your sound card, the standard supplied sound card in
most computers is only good enough for play back of audio that
is already formatted for the most part, even if it is connected
to a fast bus, it may still have its own limitations as regards
to processing what information it is fed.
An external interface is a really good alternative.
They come with midi in and midi out ports,
so you can connect a midi device to the interface,
and then connect the usb from the interface to the computer,
this will bring the midi into your DAW.
Only use one interface, as timing will drift, which could be
already the problem with your computers internal card set up and the DAW.
But check out your computer is not the problem by going through
the guide I linked, there should be no other programs trying to
access the processor when your DAW is running, as such programs
have to interrupt the processor and in doing so the processor has to
stop processing, deal with the interrupt and start again, this causes
pops and other glitches.
Last edited by Greenerpastures; 08-18-2017 at 06:50 PM.
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 08:17 PM
|
#35
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,052
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridoron7
"Judders" - Thank you for your explanation.
So I'm basically looking for an -External Sound Card- that has USB A-B input,
and headphones jack that I output the sound to the speakers(should for 1 with zero monitoring) right?
|
If you mean zero latency monitoring, then no. You can't use software instruments with zero latency monitoring, that only works if you are recording an analogue input, like a microphone or synth with audio outputs.
If you are playing software instruments with a midi controller then you will always have some latency, but there are ways to minimise that, many of which have already been posted in this thread.
|
|
|
08-19-2017, 12:53 AM
|
#36
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,781
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
You can't use software instruments with zero latency monitoring,
|
But it depends on the (USB) A/D-D/A interface (and especially it's (ASIO) driver, how low latency is possible.
I happily use an NI Audio7, that is especially offered for such usage. (There might be lots of others that work as good as this one.)
-Michael
|
|
|
08-19-2017, 10:28 PM
|
#37
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 10
|
I really appreciate you friends!
Thank you Jimmy, it's a real comfort to know it happens to you.
SoftSynth - You right, I'm trying to sabotage this too much, maybe too much.
Thank you for all your explanations and recommendations!
Greenerpastaures - was, amazing pdf you gave.
Lot's of tweaks didn't know excited.
Your pdf + the links was given to me earlier are essential so much, thank you!
Thanks Judders! I finally understand the logic behind all this process thanks to you!
Thanks to anyone comment on this post!
Ori
__________________
Intel i7-2600k CPU 3.40GHz (8CPUs) Sandy Bridge 1 Processor, 4 cores, 8 threads; South Bridge: Intel H67 B3 Ram: 8192 MB; Nvidia GeForce; Realtek High Definition Audio. Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit; Nektar Impact LX 61+. Drums: Roland Td 11kv
|
|
|
08-20-2017, 12:00 AM
|
#38
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 192
|
I agree with Judders if I understand your problem fully; I apologize but I haven't spent the required time with this thread, but wanted to chime in anyway. I've had a similar situation when trying to send MIDI from one piece of software to another. Leap Motion and its recommended MIDI utility, has caused it, and I've also experienced it when attempting to use FL Studio and certain MIDI vst programs (FL Studio has a weird approach to vst's) So the quality of the software, and optimization for the O/S and DAW environments, has been my source of similar problems with MIDI routing. You would not think that the quantity and rate of processing flows would be an issue, but obviously it was for me. In the case of Cthulhu (the vst I was having trouble with in FL Studio) to record its output into FL Studio I was forced to route the MIDI out of and back into FL Studio, using a couple of 3rd party MIDI virtual I/O programs, at which point the horribly poor data resolution and processing rate were apparent.
I don't blame the developers, I blame the O/S maker for making it difficult. Given USB and the capabilities of FL Studio there should be no problem, but I gather that the types of bottlenecks in "merging" the data result from trying to guess at the solution with respect to the O/S.
|
|
|
08-20-2017, 02:55 AM
|
#39
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,704
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
If you mean zero latency monitoring, then no. You can't use software instruments with zero latency monitoring, that only works if you are recording an analogue input, like a microphone or synth with audio outputs.
If you are playing software instruments with a midi controller then you will always have some latency, but there are ways to minimise that, many of which have already been posted in this thread.
|
It is worth pointing out that it can be brought down to such a point that it is there (from a technical standpoint) but imperceptible, even when swapping directly from analogue synths on line inputs to MIDI via USB.
There is no need to have a system so slow that you perceive input lag when you hit the keys - nothing you should need to learn to adjust to tolerate.
I'm sure someone will argue with this but that would be someone who could moan about the difference between say the refresh rate of one very fast gaming monitor over another even faster refresh monitor. Basically that level of miniscule difference, not something a human being would have to make adjustments for in terms of playing style.
|
|
|
08-20-2017, 03:19 AM
|
#40
|
Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,781
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth
it can be brought down to such a point that it is there (from a technical standpoint) but imperceptible,
|
You can multiply the latency introduced by the software by the velocity of sound in air to see the equivalent distance between the loudspeaker and your ear that would create the same perception.
-Michael
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:29 PM.
|