Old 09-24-2006, 11:43 PM   #1
alpoman
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Default REAPERS BIGGEST PROBLEM

Hi, let me first say I think REAPER is brilliant! It is becoming my favorite software for audio. The problem I see for REAPER is that Cockos seems to be a very small company. Two people? Three? Anyway from what I understand Justin is the main coder - and he's great, no doubt on that one. But..... what if he quits, or gets a job for NASA building smart rockets to mars? or whatever? REAPER development stops, the wonderful updates stop, and the company dissapears and the lucky few of us will use this software for years to come But, it really could hurt the company develop a broader customer base if there is fear of the goodies going bye bye. The head coder at a bigger DAW company could quit, and I know the updates and new version and support will be there. Will people want to spend more than $40 dollars on software that won't be supported by their operating system next year, or audio drivers? I would not buy a car from a guy who builds,sells, and fixes his own brand of cars - even if they are the best. What if he quits or moves and the car needs updates or repairs? I'm not trying to be a negative nancy here, I'm just stating what I see to be something that the guys have to overcome. I love the hard work, and integrity of the developers - it's really unbelieveable what they have done so far - but the world is full of a-holes like me who want a bigger sense of security before they switch to new software. If this is just gonna stay shareware or "cheaper" software, then that's cool - but I see something much bigger here, and maybe the next step is from a marketing angle. All companies start somewhere and grow from there - it just kills me that REAPER is already great, and many people might not ever find out. I don't like pointing out problems without solution suggestions, but I don't know what Cockos really wants this to become. If it were me, I would seriously consider hiring a marketing firm to work on the company's image. I mean, look at your competition and then beat them- REAPER already has in many respects. I know advertising/marketing costs big bucks - but it could pay off and help the company to grow - find investors, get small business loans, do whatever it takes to get this thing to the next level

Andy
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Old 09-25-2006, 12:14 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpoman
But..... what if he quits, or gets a job for NASA building smart rockets to mars? or whatever? Andy
That's why we all need to start sending him cakes and pies.

But I imagine that if Justin built a smart rocket to Mars, it would be the size of an AMC Pacer and get there in about three hours.

cheers,
timmeh
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Old 09-25-2006, 01:11 AM   #3
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..find investors, get small business loans, do whatever it takes to get this thing to the next level...
this development isn't always a good thing. Tracktion for example. Before the "Mackie takeover", developer(s) and user(s) were very close, just like in this forum.
Now Tracktion "feels completely different" - it's become mainstream ...and somehow (for me) the "soul of Tracktion" is gone.

I think, right now one of the strongest arguments for Reaper is the "closeness" between developer and user(s). It's a kind of symbiosis that just works.

As soon as Reaper gets a big marketing offensive, bigger team, "fat" GUI design and all those things, it will be hard to maintain this "special community between developers and users".

Personally, I think it's just good as it is right now.
Reaper spreads - but it spreads because of its quality.

As soon as big companies and a lot of money are on the boat, "quality becomes secondarily" and benefit becomes the primary target.

You can almost compare it to a major music deal. As soon as you sign such a deal, you have to worry about making benefit and your ideas about music and quality become negligible.


The frequent updates...well....this is normal for such a software project - and I think it's good(!). Why? Look at Steinberg for example...they're releasing 1-3 updates per year....and what do their users write? They complain about instability.... bugs, that don't get fixed.....features they've been waiting for for years, etc.....
Many Cubase-users feel like "beta testers", because the first 2-3 Cubase releases are always quite buggy....

So what's better? The "Reaper way" or the "big sequencer company way"?

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Old 09-25-2006, 01:57 AM   #4
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Quote:
find investors, get small business loans, do whatever it takes to get this thing to the next level
That's the word idea I've ever heard.

Next thing you'd know, REAPER, now with dongle...

now let's all be realistic here. plenty of big companies end up discontinuing products or going bankrupt. stability and size aren't too linked.

I've been working on REAPER for nearly a year now, and I get more and more excited about it every day.

If someday that changes (which would be a LONG way off), I would never just pull the plug on REAPER. I would always do things to
ensure it lived on one way or another.


FWIW, discussions about financing marketing/etc for REAPER are fine to have. This is my main point though:

You can spend money on things like marketing, but the money has to come from somewhere. Sure, people could loan the company money to do that, but then they'll be expecting a return.

Where do you want your dollars that you pay Cockos spent? On marketing? Or on engineering and development?

-Justin

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Old 09-25-2006, 02:45 AM   #5
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I get more and more excited about it every day.
Hey - that makes two of us!

What's that old song about "Don't worry, be happy"? If, heaven forbid, Justin was mown down by a bus tomorrow we'd still have a hell of a good program to remember him by.

I imagine the release of version 1.00 and the move from free to paid-for-please would have been the point at which Justin might have decided that the game wasn't worth the candle (is that phrase understood worldwide?!), if there was no commercial interest in evidence. The fact that he's not only still going but in no way slowing up indicates that he's still motivated, hopefully not only for the love of the program but also because it's bringing in at least enough to keep him in catfood and beer.
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Old 09-25-2006, 02:46 AM   #6
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i'm real glad to see your position J stated clearly.

with respect i consider myself rather knowledgeable about big companies//marketing. and i think the old paradigms JUST DONT WORK...ie..what they teach at harvard mba 101 for kids.
its REAL EASY to be successfull these days....
1. BUILD THE >>>RIGHT<<< QUALITY PRODUCT.
2. ENSURE FAIR PRICING.
3. TREAT PEOPLE WITH RESPECT.

look at GM as a case study in how to screw up a company.
their problem if i may be so bold is they have forgotten a basic rule. GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT. at cheap prices.

for example everyone i know and his uncle wants a 58/9 candy apple red chev.
if they brought it out at 13k.....ie....stripped etc they would get billions in sales. (useing modern cheap mechanicals.)
but do they do it ?? .....nope.
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Old 09-25-2006, 03:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
That's the word idea I've ever heard.

Next thing you'd know, REAPER, now with dongle...
Noooooo


Quote:
Where do you want your dollars that you pay Cockos spent? On marketing? Or on engineering and development?
Is that a voting thing? I vote "B" but I think it should be obvious.
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:12 AM   #8
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My point is:
Winamp never had marketing/etc (at least none that I know of, so I assume it either didn't exist or was very very bad = useless). Winamp was still a success. Then Justin left Nullsoft, but the good thing is Winamp is still around, you see?
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:24 AM   #9
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REAPER development isnt going anywhere.

I dont mean to tout Justin's business, but anyone looking him up knows he has alREADY made a decent chunk of money (google it).

He's not some starving dev following a dream ---

he's a well fed, fun (read:llama) loving, pizza eating, musician developer, following a dream.

He has the cash to back him up and will REAP more from the sales of his product
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:33 AM   #10
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After reading Justin's response I no longer wonder why one feels at home a bit here at Cockos.



REAPER should and will have an exciting, long and fruitful life - not simply as a 'product' but more & more as a genuine piece (and part) of creative work...

so yes, better keep marketing and management guys away from it.
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex zonder
After reading Justin's response I no longer wonder why one feels at home a bit here at Cockos.



REAPER should and will have an exciting, long and fruitful life - not simply as a 'product' but more & more as a genuine piece (and part) of creative work...

so yes, better keep marketing and management guys away from it.
indeed, alex. indeed.
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:53 AM   #12
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I am new to reaper but not new to music... i have been playing, composing and recording music for easily 25 years.... i have used every software studio since the days of me using my 286 computer running Voyetra sequencer...and my 4 track. damm i was cool.... I have watched using computers to actually record audio in its infancy.... I happened upon reaper when reading about it in a recording forum and I tell you I really enjoy the community aspect of it... and to have the ear of the developer is un-heard of and quite exciting. Like the rest of you I hope it stays around for a long long time.....

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Old 09-25-2006, 05:04 AM   #13
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Like I've said before regarding the Justin Frankel legends -

(a) not everything you read on the net is true

(b) not everything you read on the net is still true even if once it was.

(c) we don't actually need to know the truth about everything on the net.

Only Justin's accountants - or his mattress - knows the present truth of these matters. For all we know, there's a refuge for abused llamas somewhere that's not short of funds.
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Old 09-25-2006, 05:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
Like I've said before regarding the Justin Frankel legends -

(a) not everything you read on the net is true

(b) not everything you read on the net is still true even if once it was.

(c) we don't actually need to know the truth about everything on the net.

Only Justin's accountants - or his mattress - knows the present truth of these matters. For all we know, there's a refuge for abused llamas somewhere that's not short of funds.

Yes, and I'd wish people would simply stop bringing anyone's bank account up as an issue in this forum. There's no relevance - only if some guys in LOVE with REAPER simply cannot pay for it since they (like most of world population) do not have a bank account at all.
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Old 09-25-2006, 05:48 AM   #15
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Till today i had absolutely no idea of Justin's history other than reading about his apparent links with winamp in this forum... always felt there was something extra ordinary going on here & what's taking place on different levels.

Take a step back to look at the bigger picture ? ... my opinion is that this is "Just.." the begining

one word for you J

- Respect
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Old 09-25-2006, 07:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex zonder
Yes, and I'd wish people would simply stop bringing anyone's bank account up as an issue in this forum. There's no relevance - only if some guys in LOVE with REAPER simply cannot pay for it since they (like most of world population) do not have a bank account at all.
no one ever brought up his bank account, what are you talking about?
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Old 09-25-2006, 07:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
no one ever brought up his bank account, what are you talking about?
Ummmm, you are the one who brought up his financial status in this statement of yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
REAPER development isnt going anywhere.

I dont mean to tout Justin's business, but anyone looking him up knows he has alREADY made a decent chunk of money (google it).

He's not some starving dev following a dream ---

he's a well fed, fun (read:llama) loving, pizza eating, musician developer, following a dream.

He has the cash to back him up and will REAP more from the sales of his product
Please check yourself and don't throw the first stone...

Rock on.

-mr moon
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Old 09-25-2006, 07:49 AM   #18
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I really love this software, this forum and this process of development - it's really interesting. I feel more reassured that this is only getting better - for a small company, I've never seen more involvement in helping to develop this based on what experienced DAW users want and need. And then there's all the innovative advances and neat little tricks in REAPERS hat! Getting bigger as a company does not ensure it's success, it just gives customers a sense of security. Maybe it's not needed for REAPER to succeeed though - maybe REAPER is just gonna be David Vs. Goliath in the end -

Andy
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Old 09-25-2006, 08:10 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. moon
Ummmm, you are the one who brought up his financial status in this statement of yours:



Please check yourself and don't throw the first stone...

Rock on.

-mr moon
I didnt say anything about his bank account though. How he spends his personal money is none of my business. no stone thrown!

But its just stating a fact. if there is something wrong with that then you can "cast the first stone"

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Old 09-25-2006, 08:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
I didnt say anything about his bank account though. How he spends his personal money is none of my business. no stone thrown!

But its just stating a fact. if there is something wrong with that then you can "cast the first stone"

What?! Hello?!!

You say that you didn't say anyhing about his bank account, but you post a message regarding the state of his financial assets?

????

Semantics?

-mr moon

Last edited by mr. moon; 09-25-2006 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 09-25-2006, 08:50 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. moon
What?! Hello?!!

You say that you didn't say anyhing about his bank account, but you post a message regarding the state of his financial assets?

????

Semantics?

-mr moon
I just mentioned that its a well known fact that he got a bunch of cash from the whole winamp thing. I have no idea what he did with it, or what his personal business is. Semantics? perhaps. but i think it makes a big difference.

I didnt post a message regarding the state of his financial assets.
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Old 09-25-2006, 08:53 AM   #22
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I've seen this discussed in other forums in the past. I say look at Justins track record. He has never totally abandoned anything.....even when forced to by a corporate heavy hand.

I alway find this article inspiring to share with others to give a good warm fuzzy feeling for those who are concerned with the "one day the sky is going to fall" concern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Frankel

If you read that article, you'll see Justin is the genious behind Gnutella. Thus, Justin didn't invent Napster, he's the guy that made the better Napster without all the pitfalls of the original Napster. Just like now, he didn't develope the first DAW, he's developing the better DAW without all the pitfalls of the othetr DAWs. Where did Gnutella go once it left Justin's hands? Well let me quote from the above article.

Quote:
the source code was also released under the GPL, Gnutella continued to be developed without Frankel's assistance, and became one of the most popular peer-to-peer file sharing networks of its time; Gnutella clients that were developed included BearShare, Morpheus, Gnucleus and LimeWire.
So Gnutella became a bigger monster and sprouted wings. Whatever the case may be, I'll just look at Justin's track record and so far I don't see any dead end tunnels, I only see light at the end of those tunnels. If I had to pick a choice of a team of developers controled like puppets by a corporate entity vs. a single Justin Frankel.....it's really a no brainer decision. In fact if you look at the case of Win-amp, it's probably doing worse off in the hands of a big corporation like Time/Warner. Additionally, I think everyone on this forum will agree that all of the Sony media software is not as good as when it was in the hands of a smaller company like Sonic Foundry.

FYI....this my personal favorite favorite piece of Justin's work.
http://www.turnofftheinternet.com/

Last edited by Rednroll; 09-25-2006 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:26 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmeh_fz3
But I imagine that if Justin built a smart rocket to Mars, it would be the size of an AMC Pacer and get there in about three hours.
Yeah but would it be skinnable?
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
REAPER development isnt going anywhere.

I dont mean to tout Justin's business, but anyone looking him up knows he has alREADY made a decent chunk of money (google it).

He's not some starving dev following a dream ---

he's a well fed, fun (read:llama) loving, pizza eating, musician developer, following a dream.

He has the cash to back him up and will REAP more from the sales of his product
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
I didnt post a message regarding the state of his financial assets.
????????????!!!

--
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:49 AM   #25
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"Additionally, I think everyone on this forum will agree that all of the Sony media software is not as good as when it was in the hands of a smaller company like Sonic Foundry."

Amen.

To paraphrase an old joke, you can take an innovative company and turn it into a big stock-price-driven corporation just like you can disect a frog. The only problem is that the subject generally dies in the process.

(Okay, it works better when it's "explain a joke"... but you get the point.)
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:56 AM   #26
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i would love to see a skilled designer in the team.
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:06 AM   #27
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I've proposed more than once that Justin and Cristophe never be allowed in the same place at the same time, just in case something unfortunate happes

There is also stashbox's creator cryptomail who might be able to pick up
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:14 AM   #28
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Live for today, for tomorrow we die.....Eat, drink and be merry....really!...no point in worrying about what might, or might not be.

Life is too serious to take seriously W.S

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Old 09-25-2006, 10:21 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RokkD
Live for today, for tomorrow we die.....Eat, drink and be merry....really!...no point in worrying about what might, or might not be.

Life is too serious to take seriously W.S

--
I agree fully. I guess some could be worried if they dedicate large amounts of time an energy using one way of recording it would make you nervous if someday it went Bye Bye.... but that could be said about any software we use... and as with all things in life we should have a backup and alternate means of performing what we do. I guess you should never have all your Eggs in one basket as they say.... But as RokkD said why fully worry lets just enjoy what we have and hopes that we get hit by a bus before Justin LOL...that way we will never have to worry about it...
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:23 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RokkD
????????????!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason BM
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
REAPER development isnt going anywhere.

I dont mean to tout Justin's business, but anyone looking him up knows he has alREADY made a decent chunk of money (google it).

He's not some starving dev following a dream ---

he's a well fed, fun (read:llama) loving, pizza eating, musician developer, following a dream.

He has the cash to back him up and will REAP more from the sales of his product

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
I didnt post a message regarding the state of his financial assets.

--
Yeah, I think someone must belong to the "Bill Clinton College of Semantics and Doublespeak"!!



(*referring to the Clinton/Lewinsky "non-sexual" affair, as it were, and his complete denial that "oral sex" was considered "sexual relations")

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...lintonsaid.htm



-mr moon
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:35 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. moon
Yeah, I think someone must belong to the "Bill Clinton College of Semantics and Doublespeak"!!



(*referring to the Clinton/Lewinsky "non-sexual" affair, as it were, and his complete denial that "oral sex" was considered "sexual relations")

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...lintonsaid.htm



-mr moon
ok, whatever. i think we are just talking about 2 different things.
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:35 AM   #32
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Well, SAW has had its loyal cadre of users for more than 10 years. And mostly developed and supported by one guy. It has happened before.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:30 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. moon
"Bill Clinton"
I think this has more to do with the DSM IV than Justin, Reaper or Jason....
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:35 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald
I think this has more to do with the DSM IV than Justin, Reaper or Jason....



-mr moon
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:48 AM   #35
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As a musician one's dream (at least mine) is to be able to get to a point where one can not only get by doing music, but even "prosper" with it.

For a certain type of programer mentality, one could substitute "programing" in the above statement.

I am more afraid of the "direction" of Reaper careening off into a direction I don't like ("hey, let's just have an all-keyboard shortcut interface!!!!) <g>, than development going away.

If technology keeps improving, at some point about 4-6 years from now it's going to be diminishing returns in the DAW field. It's going to just be a matter of which UI one prefers, and they're all going to be very mature at that stage. At that point, the one that has the most logical and well thought out UI is the one that will probably see the otherside of the 22nd century. It won't matter if it came from a big corporate monolith or somewhere else.

Justin has a better chance in the long run than maybe anybody save Digi. He's not over extended, and doesn't need for Reaper to really do anything at all. On the otherhand, companies like Steinberg IMO face a day of reckoning when there won't be a reason to pick something like Cubase (or Sonar, or whatever)because effectively the performance and capability of the playing field will be flat (it almost is now)... and at that point Steinberg/whoever has more mouths to feed than Justin.

If Justin stays lean, a few years from now I think Reaper will be viewed differently. Moore's law is going to kill the DAW companies one day fairly soon, and at that point I think you'll either have Justin still around to tweak things perhaps, or maybe Reaper will be open source and you'll be able to do it yourself. I don't see that happening with Digi, Cakewalk or Steinberg.

PT people will suddenly find themselves with a stagnant platform; the question will be if whatever is happening by then demands more after that point.
Video is definitely going to have a revolution in about 4 years, but it's going to be hardware driven and that's going to leave the big profit margin behind; scaling up video integration will be just a matter of API tweaks, and the big houses either won't be able to finance keeping up or they'll throw in the towel I think.


... all this presuming he's of the programer ilk that has fun programing and enjoys the mental stimulation of
it - which seems to be the case.
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Old 09-25-2006, 12:30 PM   #36
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Personally, I think Reaper's biggest "problem" is the close-minded recording industry and consumer market that Reaper is trying to break into, both of which are quick to judge and critique Reaper unrelentingly.

...However, this is a double-edged sword, as the close-minded/critical opinions may act as a catalyst for the Reaper developer(s) to work that much harder to rise to the challenge of producing the new standard in audio recording applications. Only time will tell!

...And yes, there are still technical glitches here and there and some features that I believe should be included which are not at this time, but this is common in all software, not just Reaper.

-mr moon
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Old 09-25-2006, 12:35 PM   #37
alex zonder
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REAPER is above all a great solution.

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Old 09-25-2006, 01:03 PM   #38
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I also forgot my favorite midi sequencing software thus far. Opcode's Studio Vision was ahead of it's time as far as a user interface and functionality. I laugh today when I still see people arguing over having the cabability to have input quantization capabilities in Sonar in the Cakewalk forums. Gee, Opcode's studio Vision had this feature on their v1.0 release along with many basic outboard gear midi sequencers and here's Calkwalk's flagship product at v15.0 without it.

So back to Opcode. They got purchased by Gibson Guitars, where all us Opcode Studio Vision users saw our beloved midi sequencer get turned into sh*t by Gibson and die a quick painful death by a larger corporation.

So larger corporations offering some kind of security blanket? I think not from my experience. Two of my favorite software developers (Opcode & Sonic Foundry) where eaten by bigger fish. Opcode died a quick painful death from the ilks of Gibson, and the Sonic Foundry suite seems to have changed direction and looks to be dying a slow painful death in the pro audio community by Sony, in the favor of Sony consumer product support features. Which is a shame, since the original company was called "Sonic" Foundry. Steinberg was purchased by Pinacle, where this went south fast and now have been purchased by Yamaha. The jury is still out on that one and waiting for the final judgement.
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Old 09-25-2006, 01:14 PM   #39
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Should we mention Logic bought by the nice Apple people and removed from the PC world.
Yeah those nice large companies really are the ones to trust.
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Old 09-25-2006, 01:59 PM   #40
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Whenever big money becomes involved, the products inevitably stagnate, because innovation is no longer a priority. The bottom line is the only priority that matters and that overshadows development. Look at Windows Vista. Microsoft had the oppurtunity to do some serious innovation with a big OS release and they are totally playing it safe. When your company gets as big and dominant as MS, they become paralyzed by the fear that a significant change will end up costing them money and as a result they are to afraid to make changes. Instead they candy up the gui and call it innovation.

On the other hand, with REAPER we have a developer who interacts directly with his customers and we see updates and fixes and innovations very quickly. I love it. I wish all the software I use had developers who listen and communicate.
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