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08-02-2017, 02:01 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Mullet
Posts: 829
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can you hear a difference...
...between these two tones/files ?
if so, what is the difference ?
Edit: also, how did you listen to the file ? (Headphones, monitors, iPad, whatever).
file A
file B
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Last edited by bezusheist; 08-02-2017 at 02:33 AM.
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08-02-2017, 02:17 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 68
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I tried to listen to it before searching the difference between the two. I did heard that the A was more "subby" than the B.
Now that I found the difference, I don't know why it's happening. But I still hear a difference even by doing a blind test.
Do you have an explanation ?
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08-02-2017, 02:32 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Mullet
Posts: 829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePixaliz
Do you have an explanation ?
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Not just yet....I'm still reading up on the subject.
I think it might have something to do with alien life forms...
But seriously, this is just a "casual" effort at (maybe) gathering some sort of data on the subject, for fun/learning.
Did you listen on headphones or monitors ?
(...maybe I should include that question in the OP)
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08-02-2017, 05:47 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 749
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No difference.What are you looking for? That a polarity reversed soundfile sounds different, when soloed?
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08-02-2017, 07:55 AM
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#5
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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Quote:
if so, what is the difference ?
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Ello- lol,again,this is indeed a bit of a curious phenom-- I see and hear how your playing with waveform symmetry,,offsetting and invertion.=)
Same sound-different 'tone'- I suppose it has all todo with reflections and how cones are driven.
When you think and respond to natural waveforms-these normally have no 'crossover point'- longtitude,transversed,surfaced generations and reflections.
This daw crossover is a distortion initself.
Seems like which sounds better 'is the time of choosing'!.
My opinion is above the imaginary line your pushing--below the line your pulling..not sure if that is the case in total.
The effect almost gives an 'odd/even' feeling. =)
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08-02-2017, 08:03 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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Ha ha...I cheated. I am on my laptop right now and saw the word "subby"...and decided to play it safe and not blow up my tiny laptop speakers....So I turned OFF my speakers and LOOKED at the effects of each file. They both output identical readings on the meter, but when one is phase reversed and they play together, looking at Span shows TONS of low end information being left over.
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The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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08-02-2017, 08:05 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rhode Island, New England
Posts: 1,665
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Listened on Sennheiser HD650's. Only difference I could detect is that A is a few cents (maybe a semitone) lower than B
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08-02-2017, 08:13 AM
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#8
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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Quote:
looking at Span shows TONS of low end information being left over.
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Noise there? because of the offset?
It's basically the doppling effect-pitch changes as the phase shifts over time and distance.
Same sound -different velocities and positions in time. =)
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08-02-2017, 08:19 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NA - North Augusta South Carolina
Posts: 4,294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevlyns
Listened on Sennheiser HD650's. Only difference I could detect is that A is a few cents (maybe a semitone) lower than B
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B is lower than A.....
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08-02-2017, 08:21 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NA - North Augusta South Carolina
Posts: 4,294
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Tannoy Reveals.
B is lower than A.
A has a slight overtone, seems to have IM distortion/more churn.
This is just a polarity flipped or sample offset file? Very interesting if that's the case...
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08-02-2017, 08:25 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NA - North Augusta South Carolina
Posts: 4,294
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If this is just a polarity flipped signal, it would have to be the asymmetry in the fact that a speaker cone has to be stiffer moving outward than inward.
Hmm. Hadn't thought about that before, but at physical limits that would have to alter distortion characteristics based on phase of low frequency signals. Makes me want to look into flat design cones...
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08-02-2017, 08:38 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,969
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economy headphones (really economical). Old ears. No diff.
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08-02-2017, 08:48 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 8
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No difference, just inverted polarity.
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08-02-2017, 09:28 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NA - North Augusta South Carolina
Posts: 4,294
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Interesting, what I'm hearing is confirmed by my tuner; when you start either file on the volume swell, it's flat. So if you switch from the middle of one the other will seem flat to the other.
Seems dependent on when I restart the file, which is curious.
Perhaps a phenomenon of a ramp up relative to the offset of the sample rate, depending on the start of the zero crossing. Samples are demanding the DA to increase voltage, but the math of the 440/sf * level increase skews it?
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08-02-2017, 10:03 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 369
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listend on a 800W sinus subwoofer .. B is tiny bit louder on that sub but this just shows that hardware doesn´t produce exact digital sound and has some quirks/borgs in it self and every speaker on the planet has its own chracteristics and shortcomings
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08-02-2017, 02:20 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Mullet
Posts: 829
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Yes...this is the same file duplicated & polarity inverted on one...they null down to dither.
I made the tone by adding the 2nd harmonic to a sine wave, which creates a pretty significant asymmetry in the waveform.
I find it fascinating...the two files null, but some can hear a difference between them.
I would suspect it has to do with speaker design, which I know nothing about, so any insight from smart people greatly welcome
Thanks everyone for chiming in and keep commenting because there is no right or wrong answer and it's interesting to hear the similar/different interpretations of how the sound changes. I have more comments and questions but I have a steak to eat right now so be back later...
Edit: I will add I found the difference most noticeable on my old Sony mdr7506 headphones.
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08-03-2017, 05:41 AM
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#17
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
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Quote:
I would suspect it has to do with speaker design, which I know nothing about,
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I think it's just purely perceptual-the doppler effect.Funniest thing is now every time I click ~invert~ multiple times on an item-am hearing changes!!! lolz =weird.
Some time ago I noticed a related phenom while recalibrating a speaker system.
It was being tested with a single low hz tone--and as I moved around the room I was getting really obvious 'phase shift'.
It got quite strange when I found the zones where waves were sitting fairly 'still'. I could almost make a tune,by simply moving head positions.. >1 for the "funny moments" video collection. =)
The tone seemed to sit in horizontal banded layers across the room space.
There's a rack extension called "ammo 1200br" -that does crazy dc offsetting like this.
There is a change in db's when played with. =)
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08-06-2017, 01:43 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Mullet
Posts: 829
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here's another one for fun...
i hear a difference in pitch between these two files...do you?
they are the same file only the polarity is inverted on one. (ie...they null)
fart_synth_positive.wav
fart_synth_negative.wav
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08-06-2017, 11:39 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 369
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pitch the same for me, but fart A makes my leg hairs stand up fart B doesn´t lol
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