Old 07-13-2016, 02:24 AM   #1
airon
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Default Integrate Klinke MCU CSurf in to Reaper


Integrate Klinke MCU CSurf in to Reaper

Why
  1. MCU is the gold standard for control surfaces in the low to medium price range, in other words it's the most affordable and useful control surface option that supports the most complexity with the least amount of user effort necessary.
  2. Reaper MCU plugin is less than the minimum of support necessary. No send mode, plugin control, etc.
  3. Thus nobody recommends using Reapers MCU plugin
  4. Everybody recommends using Klinkes MCU plugin
  5. Klinkes MCU plugin is not available for OSX/macOS
  6. Klinkes MCU plugin has shortcomings that are a result of Reapers Csurf development, such as the Send mode only controlling the Read/Trim volume level, but not the automatable level.
  7. Klinke does not have the time to fix and improve it(for free?)
  8. Yet his plugin is still the better option

How

Some possible solutions.
  • Contribute to the open source project to add OSX/macOS support and fix some bugs
  • Buy the source off Klinke to integrate in to Reaper
  • Hire Klinke to improve, rewrite and support OSX/macOS
  • Hire a different developer to improve, rewrite and support OSX/macOS
  • Create a new MCU CSurf plugin.

The Mackie Control Universal control surface protocol is still the best we have for hardware controllers in that price range. EuCon starts at $1200 for similar functionality, MCU starts at less than $100.

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Old 07-14-2016, 03:27 AM   #2
Geoff Waddington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post

Integrate Klinke MCU CSurf in to Reaper

Why
  1. MCU is the gold standard for control surfaces in the low to medium price range, in other words it's the most affordable and useful control surface option that supports the most complexity with the least amount of user effort necessary.
  2. Reaper MCU plugin is less than the minimum of support necessary. No send mode, plugin control, etc.
  3. Thus nobody recommends using Reapers MCU plugin
  4. Everybody recommends using Klinkes MCU plugin
  5. Klinkes MCU plugin is not available for OSX/macOS
  6. Klinkes MCU plugin has shortcomings that are a result of Reapers Csurf development, such as the Send mode only controlling the Read/Trim volume level, but not the automatable level.
  7. Klinke does not have the time to fix and improve it(for free?)
  8. Yet his plugin is still the better option

How

Some possible solutions.
  • Contribute to the open source project to add OSX/macOS support and fix some bugs
  • Buy the source off Klinke to integrate in to Reaper
  • Hire Klinke to improve, rewrite and support OSX/macOS
  • Hire a different developer to improve, rewrite and support OSX/macOS
  • Create a new MCU CSurf plugin.

The Mackie Control Universal control surface protocol is still the best we have for hardware controllers in that price range. EuCon starts at $1200 for similar functionality, MCU starts at less than $100.

I MIGHT be willing to take this on, but we would have to build a small pile of money up first

I was amazed how little interest we got on the Econ project, and I want to make sure we do an excellent job on this one, so a small funding is appropriate in this case.

What do you think folks ?
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Old 07-14-2016, 07:45 AM   #3
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I would be delighted to contribute!

would this work for the behringer xtouch as well I wonder?

Either way this would be awesome
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Old 07-14-2016, 07:49 AM   #4
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Yes, would be nice.
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Old 07-14-2016, 03:03 PM   #5
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Here are some comments about this issue from my side:

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
  • Klinkes MCU plugin has shortcomings that are a result of Reapers Csurf development, such as the Send mode only controlling the Read/Trim volume level, but not the automatable level.
I expect that those shortcomings are solved in the current Reaper API, my extension is using the API as it was in Reaper 3.6.
Quote:
[*]Klinke does not have the time to fix and improve it(for free?)
I will fix important issues (e.g. if a change in Reaper will cause problems), but yes, I do not plan to work on improvements and work on issues that are currently still open in the issue tracker.


Quote:
Some possible solutions.
  • Buy the source off Klinke to integrate in to Reaper
  • Hire Klinke to improve, rewrite and support OSX/macOS
  • Hire a different developer to improve, rewrite and support OSX/macOS
If the extension should be part of the Reaper installer, this cases would need that Cockos buy a JUCE licence. Which of course is a solvable problem. But even then the GUI of the extension will have a foreign look and feel. So I don't see this as a possible solution for Cockos.

Last edited by Klinke; 10-19-2016 at 09:14 AM. Reason: grammar fixes
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Old 07-15-2016, 12:56 AM   #6
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The MCU protocol is supported by more devices and is more affordable to most users.

EuCon is fan-fucking-tastic for professional users. I say professional users because they get the most out of this, and only a business(or a rich person) would spend $1200 or $40000 on an Artist Mix or a Euphonix S6 setup.

The MCU protocol is supported by a $70 X-Touch Mini. Plug and fuckin' play.

For $600-$700 you get an X-Touch or a Icon Qcon Pro, an that Pro X unit is just around the corner. The MCU from Mackie itself costs $1400 or so, though second hand units are much cheaper.

Klinkes plugin blows away the built-in MCU csurf plugin on features. It's not just a little better, it doesn't offer one or two more buttons of control or has a little more configurability.

It's more along having EuCon style stuff on an MCU-type unit. The full feature set is available at a little over half the price of the cheapest EuCon controller of a similar nature.

MCU support in Reaper = ok

MCU Klinke in Reaper = the Reaper of control surface plugins

It's only natural for those two to come together. I don't give rats tit if you have rewrite it, Cockos. All owners of MCU-capable units would profit from this. The poor OSX users haven't even had the privilege of trying Klinkes plugin yet.

What say you Cockos ?
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Old 07-15-2016, 01:00 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I MIGHT be willing to take this on, but we would have to build a small pile of money up first

I was amazed how little interest we got on the Econ project, and I want to make sure we do an excellent job on this one, so a small funding is appropriate in this case.
Interest of people with S5/S6 units is likely to increase as mixing features are now much improved with the introduction of actively-writing actions and Latch Preview.

Quote:
What do you think folks ?
Bring it on. I'll contribute if it comes to it. IMHO Cockos should hire a person to implement the best ideas of Klinkes plugin, possibly Klinke himself as well if he even has time for it.


@Klinke, what cross-platform GUI frame work would you recommend if not Juce, to reimplement the configuration application ?
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Old 07-15-2016, 08:56 AM   #8
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As a long term user of Klinke's mod. I'd be up for this as it would solve a few issues that are outstanding (well mainly the one with 2 units at once).

As long as Klinke was happy with the end resolve etc. I'd be happy to throw a bit of money at it, whoever ended up doing it (Cockos/Geoff/Klinke etc)
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:46 AM   #9
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OT but,
I would pay for deeper integration of eucon, it's not perfect now but I love my artist mix with reaper.
I got it after the project was closed (awsome work by Geoff Waddington) and despite the small drawbacks it has improved my mixing experience a lot.

Even more so after the added automation preview that has been added recently as Arion mentioned, so much that I consider adding the artist control to my setup.
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:04 AM   #10
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Just use an iPad with the Pro Control app.

It's a EuCon app that now has HUGE command button pages. Works fine in Reaper.
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Just use an iPad with the Pro Control app.

It's a EuCon app that now has HUGE command button pages. Works fine in Reaper.
I tried it briefly when it came out but did't get it to work properly (probably user error and lack of time).
I will try it out again cause that sounds really promising.
Thanks
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Old 07-22-2016, 01:41 AM   #12
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Restart your machine after installing the EuCon stuff from Avid.

That made it work just fine for me.
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:53 AM   #13
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Long time Klinke-user here,
for Nanokontrol2, Faderport and TouchDAW.
(That is: Faderport running all the time, Nanokontol not in use, TouchDAW not working)

I don't have a personal need for fixes now,
but any improvement/development is appreciated.

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Old 07-25-2016, 12:10 AM   #14
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In my opinion it would be best if Cockos themselves looked after proper MCU-implementation, to ensure constant support with further Reaper versions.

I can only imagine how greatly workflow could be improved.
I can not imagine how one can mix without a control surface.

Anyway, in the meantime i'd still happily donate for someone porting Klinke's work for use with macs.

I sold my Artist Control since it made Reaper really sluggish and unstable for me. Pretty happy now with a white Qcon Pro (and the new black one looks really promising, optically and technically).
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Old 10-19-2016, 08:51 AM   #15
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bump!

anyone want to set a bounty up?
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Old 10-20-2016, 06:46 AM   #16
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I'd be happy to donate if someone sets one up!
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Old 10-21-2016, 02:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
I'd be happy to donate if someone sets one up!
OK, fall is here, I need a winter project, think I'll give this a shot.

I want to avoid JUCE issues, so I'll be digging into the Reaper internals for the window/dialog stuff. It will be very slow going at the start.
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Old 10-22-2016, 06:34 AM   #18
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One thing we should all do together is decide what exactly we are going to build, for instance, what features from Klinkes excellent work, what features from EuCon, what features from any other implementations, etc.
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Old 10-22-2016, 01:59 PM   #19
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hooray. godspeed Geoff...
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Old 10-24-2016, 01:58 AM   #20
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Just realized I should clarify.

An earlier post indicates I would want to be paid for this work.

I am doing this for the betterment of Reaper, no money necessary

C'mon folks let's get going, what are your thoughts on a perfect MCU type plugin ?
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Old 10-24-2016, 02:12 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
C'mon folks let's get going, what are your thoughts on a perfect MCU type plugin ?
I don't have an MCU type surface, but I just might get it if a perfectly working csurf support for it happens
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Old 10-24-2016, 02:52 AM   #22
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Klinkes plugin has great config options and custom plugin mapping, but it's based on an old version of Juice. That might need updating, especially for porting the CSURF to Macos.

I want to ride the gain of sends. Send 1 for track 1,2,3,4,... on the faders. Klinkes plugin only lets you target the Read/Trim volume of sends. Sends have two volume controls just like tracks do. So the automatable volume of sends would need to be targeted and dispalyed if the send volume is activated and armed and anything but Read/Trim mode is active on the track.

Perhaps there is a better crossplatform GUI framework than Juice ?

How's that for starters ?
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Old 10-24-2016, 04:40 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Just realized I should clarify.

An earlier post indicates I would want to be paid for this work.

I am doing this for the betterment of Reaper, no money necessary

C'mon folks let's get going, what are your thoughts on a perfect MCU type plugin ?
Whoohoo, for me as regular user of Klinke's plugin this is exciting news, thanks.

To to give some input, I'm mostly very happy with the state of Klinke's plugin as is now, only things I can think of currently:

- automateable sends (as airon said)
https://bitbucket.org/Klinkenstecker...tion-for-sends

- a 'follow plugin' mode
https://bitbucket.org/Klinkenstecker...ollows-touched

- a 'native' (built in the .dll) MCU display emu (for those using an MCU emu without built in display, like me with the BCR2000)
Not a high priority as the Mountain utilities BC manager contains an MCU display emu that's working nicely (for me anyways). A built in display emu would eliminate the necessity for virtual MIDI connections though.

Nice might also be if the tracks currently controlled by the MCU could automatically change to some custom color.

- Some reporting performance decrease with higher track counts
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=39

(haven't experienced personally though, as my track count usually isn't that high)

Needless to say, I'm happy to (beta) test when the time comes...

Last edited by nofish; 10-24-2016 at 05:14 AM.
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Old 10-25-2016, 04:35 AM   #24
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Cool guys, keep those ideas coming !
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Old 10-25-2016, 05:41 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Cool guys, keep those ideas coming !
I'll do when they come.
But I'm thinking maybe better to open a dedicated thread for it ?
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Old 10-25-2016, 04:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
I'll do when they come.
But I'm thinking maybe better to open a dedicated thread for it ?
Cool, I'd like to see a new thread, should it be in General Discussion to hopefully get more eyes on it and therefore more input?

The moderators can move it if so desired.

What do you think?

If you agree I'll go ahead and start one.

I'm thinking this is potentially a lot bigger than just a port/upgrade of Klinkes excellent work.

I could see incorporating OSC, pads and tablets etc., into the workflow.
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Old 10-25-2016, 05:12 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Cool, I'd like to see a new thread, should it be in General Discussion to hopefully get more eyes on it and therefore more input?

The moderators can move it if so desired.

What do you think?

If you agree I'll go ahead and start one.
Sounds good to me.
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Old 10-27-2016, 02:44 PM   #28
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Thread continues here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=183143
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Old 03-13-2018, 02:00 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I MIGHT be willing to take this on, but we would have to build a small pile of money up first

I was amazed how little interest we got on the Econ project, and I want to make sure we do an excellent job on this one, so a small funding is appropriate in this case.

What do you think folks ?
Well... projects like these are either dead because not enough money is given by donations, or they're made OPEN SOURCE...

There's no future for a project that's behind one single person, is closed source and doesn't have huge attraction from large amount of people.
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