Moving to Reaper

[NoTan2]

Hi,
Paul from Australia and my first post.

I've been a (casual) Cubase Elements user for some years now and finally decided to put in some hours and learn the product. I decided that, if Steinberg had the usual summer upgrade sale, I'd upgrade to Artist 9.5.

However, in the process, I discovered Reaper and took a closer look. I've now watched all of Kenny's excellent "Reaper Explained" videos and some of the MIDI specific ones, downloaded the trial and decided that I really like the product, support and the customer-focussed approach.

My only reservation is the lack of included VSTi sounds. I've spent the last week reading every thread, review, article I could find on 3rd party VSTi plugins, checked out the sites mentioned here and elsewhere (bedroomproducers... etc) and have found plenty of synths and effects but very few "real" instruments such as brass, woodwinds, strings and so on. I've found a couple of free pianos and installed Ample Guitar and Bass, TAL Noisemaker, Dexed, Kontakt 5 Player and Guitar Rig 5 (free) but I'm still way short of the included sounds in Elements, let alone Artist.

If Steinberg throws a sale, it will cost me around AUD$230 to upgrade to Artist which comes with a pretty good synth, Pad Shop, Groove Agent and almost 3000 sounds (and yes, many or most of them I might never use). Even buying a decent synth for Reaper is going to cost around $150 plus the Reaper licence and I'm already up to the same cost as an Artist upgrade. I've been drooling over Komplete 11 Ultimate but $$$.

I'm going to buy a licence for Reaper whatever happens. I've been a programmer for over 40 years and the temptation to get my fingers dirty "improving" the DAW is irresistible and I appreciate that it contains functionality missing from Artist.

I just wish I knew where to find even a minimal set of good sounds. I'd even be happy to pay around $200 and forget about Artist.

Gear by the way is a Maton EM325C acoustic/electric, 1965 Hofner 500/1 violin bass, Roland A-30 MIDI keyboard, UR22, Schiit Magni 3 and BD DT770 Pro 250 ohm.

[xpoes]

Hi Paul,
Welcome to the forum..

For me SynthMaster Player (http://www.kv331audio.com/synthmasterplayer.aspx) was a great starting point.
It's on sale now, $14 (US), so less than $19 in our currency.
It comes with 1700 presets, enough to keep you going for some time.
Another one could be Vacuum Pro, $1 (US) at the moment, at https://www.pluginboutique.com/.

And go for the freebies, there's a lot of quality stuff out there!

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by xpoes

Hi Paul,
Welcome to the forum..

Thanks Xpoes. I'll have a look at SynthMaster - I haven't encountered that yet.
I keep looking at Vacuum Pro. The price is right.

I just discovered DSK HQ Instruments for $25. Available (among others) in sfz so I'll need to install a player. To be honest, I don't really mind if the quality of the sounds isn't great. I just want a selection to experiment with and decide which ones work for me and then pay for something decent. It looks like it might solve my immediate problem.

[Tiggerdyret]

Get Komplete I know it's a lot of money, but some day you are gonna need something that it has to offer and in the long run it is way better, than buying plugins one at a time. It's on sale right now, but you can just start with the standard bundle and update later on at an upgrade sale and probably save some more money.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by Tiggerdyret

Get Komplete I know it's a lot of money, but some day you are gonna need something that it has to offer and in the long run it is way better, than buying plugins one at a time. It's on sale right now, but you can just start with the standard bundle and update later on at an upgrade sale and probably save some more money.

I've been to the NI site so many times in the last week and keep wondering where I'm going to find the money. It does seem to be an incredible bargain.

[ivansc]

Seriously, look through the monster thread in here on doing it for free (well almost)
There are so many excellent free instruments out there! For a solid basic drum set there is MTPowerDrums which used to be commercial and is now free & still being developed.

Although I have quite a few commercial plugins, I tend to use about 50/50 free and paid depending on what I want to do. Rather than buying Komplete, you might want to try buying the basic Kontakt 5. IF you get the playter version(free) you can not only learn how it works but you can also get Sennheiser`s FREE Drummic`a drum kit which also qualifies you to buy the full Kontant at a discounted price. Add that to N.I.`s usual summer salesd and you have a very affordable set of good instruments, access to all the third party instruments that are developed for Kontakt but only work in demo mode unless you have the full Kontakt.
And of course if you decide you cant live without Komplete there are always upgrade paths included in the N.I. sales. MORE money saved.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Seriously, look through the monster thread in here on doing it for free (well almost)

Hi ivansc,
Thanks! I discovered that thread early in my journey.

Originally Posted by ivansc

For a solid basic drum set there is MTPowerDrums which used to be commercial and is now free & still being developed.

I just looked and I've downloaded MTPowerDrums already but haven't installed it yet.

Originally Posted by ivansc

but you can also get Sennheiser`s FREE Drummic`a drum kit which also qualifies you to buy the full Kontant at a discounted price.

That's very useful information. I'll follow it up.

I really don't know enough about NI's products yet. Plenty of research to be done.

[hopi]

just a thought...

you could just get reaper and all the good free vsti stuff you can use... there IS a lot...

there is a free sfz player and a ton of decent stuff for that... you can find links on this forum for the 'playing orchestra' for it....

there are also some fine free synths and also others that are low cost...

then later... if and when you win the lottery you can splurge on whatever your ears desire...

just getting started and getting to know your way around will keep you busy for awhile....

[moliere]

I've always had stability problems with DSK stuff. YMMV.

[Bri1]

I just wish I knew where to find even a minimal set of good sounds. I'd even be happy to pay around $200 and forget about Artist.

eyg'day sport--for that kinda dough u could afford vsp avenger> https://www.vengeance-sound.com/plugins.php

^check da specs---it's a really nice generator + fx + modulation unit.
most stuff is sync locked as well =great m8 =not much else is needed tbh..
pc specs+necktop are the bottlenecks as i see it so far.glhf.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by hopi

just a thought...

you could just get reaper and all the good free vsti stuff you can use... there IS a lot...

Yep, I came to that decision earlier this morning. I've been working with Reaper along with Kenny's videos and I really like the way it works.

My biggest concern is that I might let myself get distracted with programming instead of making music. I've already got JUCE running and I'll be having a look at wdl-ol a bit later. And then there's scripting...

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by moliere

I've always had stability problems with DSK stuff. YMMV.

That's a concern. I was just about to buy it. I've installed szforzando and was going to get the sfz format. Do you think the problems might be format related?

It's about the cost of half a tank of fuel for my car so it might be worth the risk anyway.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by Bri1

eyg'day sport--for that kinda dough u could afford vsp avenger> https://www.vengeance-sound.com/plugins.php

That's pretty impressive!
Unfortunately, it's more like $300 aussie, though.

I've bookmarked the page. I'll have a closer look when I get the chance. Thanks.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by hopi

you can find links on this forum for the 'playing orchestra' for it....

I've just been looking at this. I've installed szforzando so I'll download it and see what it's like. Thanks.

[hopi]

Originally Posted by NoTan2

I've just been looking at this. I've installed szforzando so I'll download it and see what it's like. Thanks.

good start and there are a lot of free sfz files around...

not saying they are all great but they do make noise...

[jeranx]

Originally Posted by NoTan2

but very few "real" instruments such as brass, woodwinds, strings and so on.

Hi Paul and welcome. Here are a few links where you can find some freebies. Maybe some restrictions with the Kontakt player.

http://alpineproject.wixsite.com/main

http://vis.versilstudios.net/vsco-community.html

https://performancesamples.com/

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/the...by-xtant-audio

https://sonuscore.com/free-orchestra-chords/

Bye

not saying they are all great but they do make noise...

Hi Hopi

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by jeranx

Hi Paul and welcome. Here are a few links where you can find some freebies. Maybe some restrictions with the Kontakt player.

Thank you jeranx. I'll check them out.

I'm very grateful for all the good advice I've received. I now have more sounds in Reaper than I do in Elements.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by jeranx

Maybe some restrictions with the Kontakt player.

When looking for free stuff you are out of luck with Kontakt based instrument libraries, as the supplier needs to pay a license fee to Native Instruments to have their libraries run with the free "Player".

Hence buying the Full Kontakt version provides not only the many instruments that come bundled with same, but also a great bunch of "free" 3rd party libraries available for download.

Of course there are a lot sample libraries that can be played with other (e.g. free "SoundFont") players, but Kontakt provides a lot of unique features to create super realistic sounding instruments (e.g. I use the Kontakt based "Trumpet" by "Sample Modeling" for live playing - of course not a "free" offer at all.)

-Michael

[fetidus]

I second pretty much all the plugins/resources mentioned in this thread. There are an infinite number of great plugins out there, paid and free.

For the paid ones, definitely follow the sales/specials going on in several resources mentioned in this forum... my favorite places to watch for deals are KVR, audiodeluxe, and JRRshop.

KVR also has a "for sale" forum where people sell their plugins for a big discount sometimes. Most of the folks there are totally legit and there is a feedback thread so you can see who is honest. I've gotten some great deals for totally legal license transfers there.

Good luck!

[Tyrannocaster]

Also, don't forget http://vst4free.com/ - there is a lot of stuff there. Granted, it's not all great, but I have found some items that I really like. The problem is the old one - do I have enough time to try all these out to find the ones I like?

[fetidus]

And BTW, if you are going to save up and buy just ONE softsynth plugin to rule them all, no matter what DAW you use, then IMO the best candidates on the market right now for broad scope, outstanding features, and/or tremendous available high quality sounds, are the following four plugins:

1) UVI Falcon
2) Spectrasonics Omnisphere
3) Steinberg HALion 6
4) Native Instruments Kontakt

It all depends on your genres and specific needs of course, but IMO, each one of those above, plus some genre-specific libraries, could be the ONLY softsynth you need for a long time. My current personal favorite is UVI Falcon (just bought it and love it), but I own the rest, plus many, many more, and you can easily build massive productions of many genres just with one of the above four.

There are of course many others out there that are individually better for a specific purpose, but each one of those above, especially the first three, are capable of incredible range with very deep features. I list Kontakt only because of the immense number of libraries available of every genre. The first three are more powerful.

Good luck!

EDIT: And I guess for "best bang for the buck" award, then I would add 5) KV331 Audio's SynthMaster, which if you catch it on sale, is really amazing for the money. Even if you don't consider the cost, it's a very impressive softsynth that's much more popular in Europe for some reason than the US. It doesn't get nearly the respect that it deserves. It is extremely deep and you can do some amazing things with it if you want to. Not going to replace the other four above IMO, but if you are just starting out with limited funds and don't want to save up for one of the softsynths above... then SynthMaster might be the one to start out with. I've heard some outstanding productions done mostly or completely with SynthMaster, so the limitation is your creativity.

[jamester]

The full version of SampleTank 3 is on sale for $99, just picked it up recently myself. This is an unbeatable value IMO, highly recommended and works great in Reaper...

[EricTbone]

Originally Posted by NoTan2

My only reservation is the lack of included VSTi sounds. "real" instruments such as brass, woodwinds, strings and so on [..] Artist which comes with a pretty good synth, Pad Shop, Groove Agent and almost 3000 sounds

The "almost 3000 sounds" claim is fairly meaningless. One soft synth with 3000 presets would cover that claim.

I just ditched Cubase Pro for Reaper. I wouldn't worry too much about Retrologue or Pad Shop. They are good synths, but there are hundreds of free synths available that cover that ground. I also wouldn't sweat Groove Agent or LoopMash, unless you're more interested in being a DJ than writing/recording music.

The real gap for you is probably the sample library represented by Halion, which this posts covers:

Originally Posted by jamester

The full version of SampleTank 3 is on sale for $99, just picked it up recently myself. This is an unbeatable value IMO, highly recommended and works great in Reaper...

That will give you tons of sounds to play with, including some great sounding sampled synths and pads.

It also includes some drum kits, but if you want something even better, Sennheiser has released a free multi-gigabyte, high quality drum library called DrumMic'a. I haven't downloaded it myself because I own Addictive Drums 2, but the demos I've heard sound fantastic. It exists to show off their microphones, so the drums are exceptionally well and thoroughly recorded, using 15 microphones to capture 25 velocity layers with 6 round robin instances per layer, totalling 23K samples. It sounds extremely natural.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by mschnell

When looking for free stuff you are out of luck with Kontakt based instrument libraries, as the supplier needs to pay a license fee to Native Instruments to have their libraries run with the free "Player".

I installed the free Kontakt player earlier and I like a few of the included sounds but as you say, most require the full version.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by fetidus

For the paid ones, definitely follow the sales/specials going on in several resources mentioned in this forum... my favorite places to watch for deals are KVR, audiodeluxe, and JRRshop.

KVR also has a "for sale" forum where people sell their plugins for a big discount sometimes. Most of the folks there are totally legit and there is a feedback thread so you can see who is honest. I've gotten some great deals for totally legal license transfers there.

Good luck!

Thanks for that. I've been looking at KVR and pluginboutique but I didn't know about the others.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by Tyrannocaster

Also, don't forget http://vst4free.com/ - there is a lot of stuff there. Granted, it's not all great, but I have found some items that I really like.

I've bookmarked a sax on vstfree that I liked the sound of but haven't downloaded it yet.

Originally Posted by Tyrannocaster

The problem is the old one - do I have enough time to try all these out to find the ones I like?

I hear you. I have so much to learn in some many areas.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by jamester

The full version of SampleTank 3 is on sale for $99, just picked it up recently myself. This is an unbeatable value IMO, highly recommended and works great in Reaper...

I haven't come across that yet. Thanks! I'll give it a look.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by EricTbone

The "almost 3000 sounds" claim is fairly meaningless. One soft synth with 3000 presets would cover that claim.

I've been doing some fairly intense research/fact-finding over the last week and that is now becoming much clearer - good marketing. Since it was cheap enough, I bought DSK HQ and for the intended purpose - ie some sounds to play with as I learn the product - it seems adequate.

Originally Posted by EricTbone

I just ditched Cubase Pro for Reaper.

That's encouraging - as I've been working through Kenny's videos, it's become clear that Reaper has plenty of functionality that's missing from Artist and I suspected that it compares favourably to Pro. It's good to hear that endorsement. It looks like Cubase has an upgrade sale running but I decided that my money would be better spent elsewhere.

Originally Posted by EricTbone

I wouldn't worry too much about Retrologue or Pad Shop. They are good synths, but there are hundreds of free synths available that cover that ground. I also wouldn't sweat Groove Agent or LoopMash, unless you're more interested in being a DJ than writing/recording music.

That's also become clear.

Originally Posted by EricTbone

Sennheiser has released a free multi-gigabyte, high quality drum library called DrumMic'a.

I started to download that but was called away. I've been using MTPowerDrums which was recommended above and I'm liking it.

[EricTbone]

Originally Posted by NoTan2

it's become clear that Reaper has plenty of functionality that's missing from Artist

That goes both ways. Cubase is a world class DAW with a lot of functionality that Reaper lacks (e.g. VariAudio, track versions, channel strips, automatic tempo mapping, OMF import/export, plugin blacklisting, remote recording, chord pads, preset searching, plugin A/B, etc.; though I'm not sure not all apply to Artist). But I vastly working in Reaper.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by fetidus

1) UVI Falcon
2) Spectrasonics Omnisphere
3) Steinberg HALion 6
4) Native Instruments Kontakt

It all depends on your genres and specific needs of course, but IMO, each one of those above, plus some genre-specific libraries, could be the ONLY softsynth you need for a long time. My current personal favorite is UVI Falcon (just bought it and love it), but I own the rest, plus many, many more, and you can easily build massive productions of many genres just with one of the above four.

Bri1 mentioned VPS Avenger so I've downloaded the demo and have been stumbling around trying to make sense of it. I notice that you didn't mention it or Serum and I guess that they don't "really" compete with Falcon and Omnisphere since they're significantly cheaper.

In general there doesn't seem to be much love for Avenger out there and I'm trying to discover why as (at least to my limited outlook) it appears to be a very capable synth.

I've also read that it is more geared towards EDM, House etc and this is something else I need to research. Is it just because the available presets tend towards those genres or something more fundamental?

Neither Falcon nor Omni seem to offer demos and, since this is a hobby for me and they are quite expensive in aussie dollars, I can't take the risk as I might if it were a business decision. (But just looking through what is available for Falcon is fascinating.)

Originally Posted by fetidus

And I guess for "best bang for the buck" award, then I would add 5) KV331 Audio's SynthMaster... I've heard some outstanding productions done mostly or completely with SynthMaster, so the limitation is your creativity.

This harks back to my previous question. Is there any reason that Avenger could not do the same? As I mentioned, I'm a programmer and a button-twirler and I'm keen to get into making sounds rather than just using presets and the synth seems to have some depth.

I'll take a closer look at Synthmaster as well.

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by NoTan2

In general there doesn't seem to be much love for Avenger out there and I'm trying to discover why as (at least to my limited outlook) it appears to be a very capable synth.

Ignore opinions like that if you like the sound of the synth. It'd be nice if people were more objective in their criticisms (if there's a potential problem or limitation to the synth, it'd be nice to know), but that's not how people review things most of the time. I guess you can assume if no one is saying "it crashes all the time" or "its filters are limited" etc. then it's simply a matter of taste.

For that matter I notice a lot of people gushing about some synths I don't really care for, saying they're "the best". If it fits a person, it's "the best". If it doesn't, it's "terrible". lol. Humans.

Anyway there's another drum plugin you might like, called DrumGizmo. It's free.

https://drumgizmo.org/wiki/doku.php

There are kits you can download on that site. Currently they all have a lot of bleed in the various audio channels, but the new version of DrumGizmo coming soon will have a global bleed control to tame that.

The plugin looks pretty "barebones", relying on sending to (up to) 16 output channels/tracks, which you'd want to organize in a sensible way and mix like it's a drum buss. See the info about loading a multi-channel VSTi in this video as an example (different VSTi but the same idea):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CzL_7NPysk

Or you can instead load the plugin using:

Track->Insert virtual instrument on new track...

The 16 output channels will handle the sound from DrumGizmo. Which track is for which kit piece is explained in the info for the kit (on the DrumGizmo site for the kits, and also in a file included in each download).

I'm also making some based on these samples (demo clips at the bottom):

http://www.tchackpoum.fr/

I've nearly finished them. (Once they're complete they'll be hosted on that site.)

So far all the DrumGizmo kits (including the ones I'm working on) are quite "unproduced", more "raw" sounding, so they'll take some work with EQ/compression/etc. if that's what you're after. Something like MT Powerdrumkit 2 is good for a narrow range of sound, and quite good considering how tiny of a download it is, but the DrumGizmo kits have a lot more possibilities if you're willing to mix them yourself.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by JamesPeters

Ignore opinions like that if you like the sound of the synth. It'd be nice if people were more objective in their criticisms

The problem is that I still don't know enough to decide whether I like it or not. But there's no hurry. The demo is good enough for me to get my head around the concepts and then I can start to make a more informed comparison.

I've struggled with G.A.S. for years in photography and I can see it happening in this world as well - or is it called Plugin Acquisition Syndrome here? I'll have to look it up.

Originally Posted by JamesPeters

Anyway there's another drum plugin you might like, called DrumGizmo. It's free.

I'm also making some based on these samples (demo clips at the bottom):

http://www.tchackpoum.fr/


https://drumgizmo.org/wiki/doku.php

Thanks for that.
I can't believe how far ahead I am compared to last week. So much good advice here.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by jamester

The full version of SampleTank 3 is on sale for $99, just picked it up recently myself. This is an unbeatable value IMO, highly recommended and works great in Reaper...

Originally Posted by EricTbone

The real gap for you is probably the sample library represented by Halion, which this posts covers:

I just watched a 30 minute demo/review of SampleTank 3 and I think this is too good to resist while it's on sale. I have until the 4th of August to decide.

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by NoTan2

I've struggled with G.A.S. for years in photography and I can see it happening in this world as well - or is it called Plugin Acquisition Syndrome here? I'll have to look it up.

Oh I've been there and back with plugin overload/saturation/whatever, going back to the days when dinosaurs walked the Earth (aka 1997). I'm trying to not let myself get into that mentality with photography, actually.

Originally Posted by NoTan2

Thanks for that.
I can't believe how far ahead I am compared to last week. So much good advice here.

Glad to help! It's amazing how many free or inexpensive plugins are this good, especially when recalling what things used to be like 20 years ago. The idea of getting a DAW that's "all in one" (instruments, effects, etc.) hasn't interested me in a long time.

[allstar]

I think the AIR instruments represent amazing value and cover practically everything. Buy Vacuum Pro for a dollar and then upgrade from that to the AIR Instrument Expansion Pack Complete Upgrade through Plug-in Boutique for £59.99. Not sure what that is in Australian dollars. I think of it as the poor mans Komplete.

[NoTan2]

Originally Posted by allstar

I think the AIR instruments represent amazing value and cover practically everything. Buy Vacuum Pro for a dollar and then upgrade from that to the AIR Instrument Expansion Pack Complete Upgrade through Plug-in Boutique for £59.99. Not sure what that is in Australian dollars. I think of it as the poor mans Komplete.

You've convinced me. I just bought Vacuum Pro. Been looking at it for a while.
The Expansion Pack Crossgrade is AUD$101. That's a fair bit cheaper than SamplePack3 but are they comparable products? I've got a week or so to investigate. Or I could just get both for what I was going to pay for an Artist upgrade.
Many Thanks, allstar.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by EricTbone

I just ditched Cubase Pro for Reaper.

so did (at least one) a friend of mine after I showed Reaper to them.

He then bought the full Kontakt version to replace the full Halion that came with Cubase Pro during an NI half prise offer.

OTOH you can install and register DrumMica, and with that Upgrading to full Kontact is reduced prise at any time on NI.

-Michael

[Bri1]

I've got a week or so to investigate.

^heh-bruv,you will be well appy with the air expansion pack--it is fairly complete for most users...
the better advantages to certain plugs,or more importantly samplers-is the ability to create your own sample or grained waveform sample banks.
only specific creators like orchestra folks really go for really expensive specialized libraries-- 1 instrument can be gigyabitz. lol.
all decent and worth the dough imo. it's a proper bummer though none of this is native to your favourite daw though: eh: big wink.
some plugs will sit nicely docked up top to the left in reaper i find--some are defo better floated,or shoved over to another monitor-- some plugs will expand sizing now,some plugs are still kinda small by design.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by NoTan2

I just watched a 30 minute demo/review of SampleTank 3 and I think this is too good to resist while it's on sale. I have until the 4th of August to decide.

Remember that the Upgrade from DrumMica to full Kontact is 249 ... (and to me on the first glance the sounds are more attractive, but this is a matter of taste).

-Michael

[fetidus]

Originally Posted by NoTan2

Bri1 mentioned VPS Avenger so I've downloaded the demo and have been stumbling around trying to make sense of it. I notice that you didn't mention it or Serum and I guess that they don't "really" compete with Falcon and Omnisphere since they're significantly cheaper.

In general there doesn't seem to be much love for Avenger out there and I'm trying to discover why as (at least to my limited outlook) it appears to be a very capable synth.

I've also read that it is more geared towards EDM, House etc and this is something else I need to research. Is it just because the available presets tend towards those genres or something more fundamental?

Neither Falcon nor Omni seem to offer demos and, since this is a hobby for me and they are quite expensive in aussie dollars, I can't take the risk as I might if it were a business decision. (But just looking through what is available for Falcon is fascinating.)

This harks back to my previous question. Is there any reason that Avenger could not do the same? As I mentioned, I'm a programmer and a button-twirler and I'm keen to get into making sounds rather than just using presets and the synth seems to have some depth.

I'll take a closer look at Synthmaster as well.

VPS Avenger is immensely powerful, but there are several reasons why I didn't list it in my list of four (or actually 5) to consider for "the best candidates on the market right now for broad scope, outstanding features, and/or tremendous available high quality sounds." (It might show up in my top 15 though.)

UVI Falcon, Spectrasonics Omnisphere, Steinberg HALion, Native Instruments Kontakt are the four that meet that requirement the best IMO. With KV331 Synthmaster as an amazing "value." But that may not be the best fit for you if that's not what you're looking for. You might want EDM only, then there would be other top plugins. (Although, TBH, those five can hold their own in that area too). I had said, "it all depends on your genres and specific needs of course, but IMO, each one of those above, plus some genre-specific libraries, could be the ONLY softsynth you need for a long time."

But VPS Avenger is definitely a top-notch softsynth, at least on paper. It's not as powerful as the first three I mentioned, and it is indeed geared more to EDM. The other issues I have with it is that I think the expansions are way overpriced (reminds me of a greedy money-grab) and if you judge the KVR forum's reports of bugs, VPS Avenger does NOT have a great track record, unfortunately. I have personally passed on it for those reasons. However, I know of some folks who love it and do some amazing work with it. But IMO you can do better with the other ones listed above, at least until more variety of expansions come out and they solve their seemingly endless bug complaints.

As for Serum, it is also outstanding, but it's a wavetable synth (and one of the best wavetable synths to be sure) but it inherently has certain limitations -- the first three synths I mentioned are far more powerful overall and again, I was talking about "broad scope, outstanding features, and/or tremendous available high quality sounds." Serum doesn't fit in the same category, but for what it does, it does indeed sounds fantastic.

So if you like the sounds of Avenger or Serum, go for them, they are great for sure. But if you need more variety of sounds, and in some cases much more power, then you'll need something else. Again, it boils down to genre and your personal needs and taste.

My main point was that if you're going to save up for ONE instrument, then the ones I listed are IMO the most powerful on the market. Nothing against Avenger, Serum, etc.

Frankly, a killer combination would be even better -- something like one of the four I mentioned PLUS Serum, or PLUS your favorite plugin from U-he.

So a really killer combination for someone starting out to save up for would be:

UVI Falcon + U-he Diva
Kontakt + Serum

etc...

Those kinds of combinations will cover so much ground, and do it so well, it will keep you busy for a long time.

And again, for starters on a tight budget, you can't go wrong with Synthmaster, which is such a powerful synth for the money, that gets much more respect in Europe for some strange reason. The features are right up there with the big leagues.

Lastly, I personally don't recommend you go with middle-of-the-road plugins like SampleTank though. No offense. My hard drives have been cluttered withe plugins like that over the years because I got something at a "good deal." And I don't use them now at all. Yes, it's a good value at $99 for sure, and if you're happy with those sounds, then go for it. Again, no offense to people who use those libraries. However, there's absolutely *nothing* special about it or its libraries or its feature set. It's shooting for the middle ground unfortunately, years behind in tech, and it's extremely "average." Don't get me wrong -- "average" in 2018 is still a heck of a lot better than in 2008. But I've learned that tons of "average" sounds are not as good as fewer "exceptional" sounds. And you generally get what you pay for -- not always -- but generally. So save up for the good stuff. There are exceptions like SynthMaster in terms of exceptional value. But consistently steep discounts on specific products like that (and years of tiresome experience with that company) reflects its real market position more often than not. And SampleTank is definitely not best of class, so you'll see more and more special deals on it. Also, larger size does NOT = BETTER. Again, if you're happy with it, nothing wrong with it. But Kontakt + some specific libraries that are exceptional to YOU will be far better IMO. Shoot for Kontakt + Serum, or Falcon + Diva as your target. And if on a super-low budget, go for some free plugins + SynthMaster. Then save up for the other ones.

My two bits only -- YMMV.