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05-04-2011, 09:38 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,793
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Render Stems (selected tracks) through master FX? (DONE)
Is there a way when rendering stems to have the master fx included?
After rendering the main mix I export the stems to use with Ableton, but the master fx don't seem to be included and it's a bit of a pain to solo and render everything individually...
Am I missing something?
Also does anyone know if stem rendering takes into account all routing and sidechaining going on in the whole mix? I would assume it does, but just wanted to be sure.
(thanks in advance)
__________________
FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 Pro 64-bit, Reaper 6(x64), AMD 3950x, Aorus X570 Master, 64GB DDR4 3600, PowerColor Red Devil 5700XT, EVO 970 2TB, 10TB HD, Define R6
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05-05-2011, 03:35 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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It does take into routing and side chains etc but not all plugins respond well to off-line bounce so online may be only safe bet there.
As for bouncing through the master fx. You would have to use master mix as output and solo one track at a time. You might be able to queue them up though so you can leave it for automatic bouncing.
Curious why you would want to though (unless for mastering individual tracks or perhaps game effects you wouldn't normally put each track of a full mix through the master as it will not give the same results as just the whole mix, for compression etc anyway.)
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05-06-2011, 01:48 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,793
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The reason I want the stems to go through the master is so it sounds most like the actual project. Often I'll have a suble EQ on the master, but more commonly I leave plenty of headroom in the project and use a limiter on the master to get each song to a consistent level.
By not being able to render through the master, although I may have 4 full 2-track mixdowns at ~-13 RMS, when I bring the stems into Ableton the levels vary widely per song.
Other people may have totally different reasons for wanting stems go through the master, like having limiter to keep the stems from clipping without having to have an instance on each stem track etc...
The problem with soloing and doing queued renders is that for some reason Reaper insists on closing/re-opening the project for EVERY stem of the same project, and when using GIGantic multisampled instruments, they don't always have time to fully load.
I guess maybe I'll make a FR and hope for 4.x...
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FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 Pro 64-bit, Reaper 6(x64), AMD 3950x, Aorus X570 Master, 64GB DDR4 3600, PowerColor Red Devil 5700XT, EVO 970 2TB, 10TB HD, Define R6
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05-06-2011, 01:52 PM
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#4
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 8,676
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But bear in mind that those stems won't sound the same in Ableton. Actually your song won't sound the same if you're using a limiter, not even close...
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Pressure is what turns coal into diamonds - Michael a.k.a. Runaway
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07-18-2011, 05:41 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,793
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Thought I'd give this a bump as it would save me sooooo much hassle right now. It's not so bad doing it once, but when I have to do it each time I update and re-export my stems it's a huge pain.
*PLEASE*
Option in the render dialog to have stems go through the master FX chain
__________________
FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 Pro 64-bit, Reaper 6(x64), AMD 3950x, Aorus X570 Master, 64GB DDR4 3600, PowerColor Red Devil 5700XT, EVO 970 2TB, 10TB HD, Define R6
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11-08-2011, 06:07 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3
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For sampling too...
Bump.
Bulk processing samples is another use case for this feature...
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11-08-2011, 08:06 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Use a bussing track and render that. The master only exists once, so you'd lose all the "render all selected stems at the same time" ability. In fact, Reaper would have to instantiate all the master effects for every stem.
This is a problem users are already able to solve themselves by placing the effects themselves. If that has problems, then let's talk about that.
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11-08-2011, 08:58 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap
The reason I want the stems to go through the master is so it sounds most like the actual project. Often I'll have a suble EQ on the master, but more commonly I leave plenty of headroom in the project and use a limiter on the master to get each song to a consistent level.
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Keep in mind, a limiter setup on the master for the whole mix will have a total different affect on the individual tracks.
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11-07-2014, 03:28 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 258
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I too would love to see this feature. Rendering STEMs without their linked effects is completely useless in a post-audio scenario.
So, to answer the (many) queries about "why the hell would you do that??" - when you do film and television, you are often asked to output STEMs (Stereo Mixes) for the dubbing (post-audio / sound mix) studio. The idea is to output each of several instrumental sub-groups (example: Orchestra, Synths, Guitars, etc) that when brought to Unity gain, will be representative of your full stereo mix.
So, if I have a Telecaster Trem track inside the GUITARS stem, and I have a Send going to an FX bus that is OUTSIDE the STEM's buss, I'm out of luck. Really annoying. The only work-around I have found is to have a different set of FX for each STEM. Yeah, it's alot of juice, I know.
Definite feature request!
T
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03-29-2015, 12:43 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
Use a bussing track and render that. The master only exists once, so you'd lose all the "render all selected stems at the same time" ability. In fact, Reaper would have to instantiate all the master effects for every stem.
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Yes it would have to do that! Which means it would be slower to render indeed. HOWEVER, requiring me to manually solo each single track and export it is again infinitely slower than that, so what is your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
This is a problem users are already able to solve themselves by placing the effects themselves. If that has problems, then let's talk about that.
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I don't get why I should waste the time to now move my master fx copied into each of my 33 tracks when REAPER could just render it out how I wanted it to. And there are good reasons to have some effects on the master, e.g. the reason that it simply saves quite some processing power during realtime playback if you have a lot of tracks. Sure, you'd usually reverb per-track, but some final EQ and touch of reverb is also well-placed on the master - and then changing this in a large project just for export is a huge pain.
Therefore, bump! Can we have this? I want it too
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03-29-2015, 02:09 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 210
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Seriously though, I just tried this manually by putting all the master effects on a new track, duplicating it as often as I have existing tracks and then attempting to move them in. 100% CPU, system barely responsive. I gave up before I was done. If this was a paid project, I wouldn't know what to do.
The problem in this specific attempt appears to be the "dedicated process" VSTs I have on the master, which now spawn a really insane amount of processes due to my duplication when I tried to have them per track in this large project.
This was the only other solution than manual solo'ing of each track which I could think of. And you can't suggest manual solo'ing as a serious solution really (because of the insane manual clicking work involved, not because the export duration).
So this makes it a good reason why this would be really very useful to have in REAPER ("Export selected tracks with full master FX" option), even if it renders slowly because REAPER internally would do the same as solo'ing each track and render one after the other or something - because at least I can let it run over night and do something useful in the meantime.
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05-24-2015, 01:34 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rideout
I too would love to see this feature. Rendering STEMs without their linked effects is completely useless in a post-audio scenario.
So, to answer the (many) queries about "why the hell would you do that??" - when you do film and television, you are often asked to output STEMs (Stereo Mixes) for the dubbing (post-audio / sound mix) studio. The idea is to output each of several instrumental sub-groups (example: Orchestra, Synths, Guitars, etc) that when brought to Unity gain, will be representative of your full stereo mix.
So, if I have a Telecaster Trem track inside the GUITARS stem, and I have a Send going to an FX bus that is OUTSIDE the STEM's buss, I'm out of luck. Really annoying. The only work-around I have found is to have a different set of FX for each STEM. Yeah, it's alot of juice, I know.
Definite feature request!
T
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Hi all,
I am glad to see I am not alone!
For this reason, I totally stopped using "bus" or "sends", and all my effects are directly on each track... but on some occasions, this is not the good choice, and having sends would be a better solution.
But I am asked (as a beatmaker) to produce stems, for each of my instruments, and soloing them was a PITA...
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05-24-2015, 03:12 PM
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#13
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: United States of Europe, Germany, Mönchengladbach
Posts: 2,047
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why dont you put up a bus called "master", use that as the master and leave the real master alone??? I do that sometimes. no fx on the real master that could be bypassed.
comes in extremely handy when doing masterings in Reaper.
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05-24-2015, 03:21 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe
why dont you put up a bus called "master", use that as the master and leave the real master alone??? I do that sometimes. no fx on the real master that could be bypassed.
comes in extremely handy when doing masterings in Reaper.
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Doesn't help for the feature asked here.
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06-16-2015, 01:28 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Austria/Europe
Posts: 216
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So it seems there's no elegant solution unless i've missed something?!?
I have to render 100 audio tracks through an fx chain and save them in a different folder with the same filename as the source file (or better: source-filename + 'processed')
I don't care how long the rendering process takes, as long as it's working autonomous.
Neither "stem render" nor "consolidate tracks" include master or bus fx.
The fx chain is much too cpu heavy to be copied over all 100 tracks.
Reaper just crashes when I duplicate the chain over more than 8 channels.
I've tried setting up a render queue but gave up as it's too time consuming in this scenario.
any tips? help? =)
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06-16-2015, 07:28 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evosilica
So it seems there's no elegant solution unless i've missed something?!?
I have to render 100 audio tracks through an fx chain and save them in a different folder with the same filename as the source file (or better: source-filename + 'processed')
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Reaper's Batch file converter can batch render audiofiles through an FX chain.
Maybe this helps ?
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06-16-2015, 07:46 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 241
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Err, this is weird. Or a joke? Shouldn't this topic be moved to newbieland forum?
If you render *steams* through the master fx track (which contains kinda eq, compression and a limiter) it would sound VERY DIFFERENT when you put those stems in Live into a project.
Just to clarify:
If you're using a compressor on the master, it would behave differently if you route ONE or TWO tracks onto it.
*** What YOU want is this: ***
Make the master FX chain "done", use ONLY vst effects, no reaper-only ("native") ones.
Now save the setting of each plugin in your master chain.
Render all steams like before (no "through master" setting, just the stems)
Import the stems in Live
Load the vst effects on the Live master track and load each setting as saved in Reaper
NOW it should sound 100% like in Reaper!
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06-16-2015, 08:12 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Err, did you read this thread ?
There are various reasons given why people wanna do this (e.g. post #9), and certainly not by 'newbies'.
Last edited by nofish; 06-16-2015 at 08:22 AM.
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06-16-2015, 08:37 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish
There are various reasons given why people wanna do this (e.g. post #9), and certainly not by 'newbies'.
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And you read #3 and see, that the intention of the poster is totally wrong.
For #9 you have to work it out different, true. But if you know that you need each track separatly in such a way, you should simply set your track up differently to achieve that.
I guess such a FR is not possible, because there is no difference between groups, tracks, sends etc (which is pretty good in general, but for this scenario pretty bad).
So how should Reaper know to render each track seperately, but with special send tracks, sidechains etc automatically... that could be very inacurate and could lead to kinda whacky results.
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06-16-2015, 08:51 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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I don't think it's difficult to implement what's asked here.
Manually way to do it is described in post #2:
Quote:
As for bouncing through the master fx. You would have to use master mix as output and solo one track at a time
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All is wanted / needed is an automatic way to do this if I've understood correctly.
As for 'result is different regarding sum of stems vs. master render' as you mention, true if using threshold dependent FX of course, but not for linear time-invariant FX (like EQ, (unmodulated) Reverb) as some use cases mentioned here.
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06-16-2015, 08:56 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 241
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Simply solo'ing each track will NOT work when you're using send tracks. That's the point, that's why it won't probably work correctly.
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06-16-2015, 09:07 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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This may be possible via script. (just tested the concept: success)
It will solo exclusive selected track (one per one), add them to render queue, and then make a final render based on current export settings.
The only thing to be sure that files are not erases is to add a wildcard in the output file name
Interested ?
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06-16-2015, 09:10 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Austria/Europe
Posts: 216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez
Err, this is weird. Or a joke? Shouldn't this topic be moved to newbieland forum?
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Chill out, bro. OP posted 2011 and is probably not gonna read your stuff.
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06-16-2015, 09:25 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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@nofish
In such workflow, do you need the sends to be render with the parent track or in another file ?
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06-16-2015, 09:26 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez
Simply solo'ing each track will NOT work when you're using send tracks. That's the point, that's why it won't probably work correctly.
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I did try it with send tracks sending to a reverb and I got the stems (soloing each and render) to completely null with the master mixdown. That's to be expected imo as when soloing a track which has a send to a reverb, the reverb track is also fed (unless you do 'solo (ignore routing)').
So why / what do you think doesn't work ?
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06-16-2015, 09:32 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Raym
@nofish
In such workflow, do you need the sends to be render with the parent track or in another file ?
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Thanks for offering help X-Raym.
I don't need this right now to be honest, it was rather a reply to Lopez. I'm just saying I see it as a valid request which I think is not impossible to implement.
So better ask the guys who requested it what they need specifically.
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06-16-2015, 10:26 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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@nofish
Sure, it wouldn't be very difficult.
In fact, the two options (with or without send) can be put in one single scripts with a user input.
I agree with lopez with the fact that this should be reserved for very particular circulstances and for the majority of workflows, it is non desired.
I never face such desire, but I can't exclude that this would never be useful :P
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06-17-2015, 08:26 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 258
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Hi Pitch,
Let me address a few issues you mention, and a few misnomers about STEM rendering, as I understand it:
- if your routing in REAPER of your STEM goes to the Master Track (ie, the Parent-Child option is check in the stem/folder track's IO section), then the STEM will be processed thru the Master Buss as well. If you don't want this, then simply uncheck the Parent Folder box and route your STEM wherever you want - Reaper's routing is phenomenal, so it's easy to do this
- i disagree with the statement about online bouncing being the way to go. It's a blanket statement akin to "disable all anti-virus and make sure your BIOS is updated..." If you have buggy plugins, they will be buggy on or offline. I have never once had a problem bouncing/rendering offline. Regardless, the statement is anecdotal and would need A-B proof to validate.
- there is only one way to have your STEMs output sound exactly like the master: you need STEM bus effects on *each* STEM output buss. This is what I do when rendering my STEMs for output. If you have 3 or 4 plugs on each STEM, times 5 or 6 STEMs and a good machine, it may or may not be an issue
- Reaper saves the render project in the queue, then, yes, loads the project - if your plugins don't have enough time to load, there is an option to WAIT (x seconds) before starting the render - use this! It's a great feature
- for EVOSILICA - the *OTHER* perhaps more sensible way of doing this (for your 100+ STEMs) would be a two-step process:
- render your STEMs *without mix buss / master buss effects; call these your Mix STEMS
- re-import these STEMs into a mastering project where you could apply effects on a Master Bus, across all stems, if you can; or set up a few different mastering chains. This is often how it is done in the CD/record industry
Please keep in mind that the intention behind this is to often automate/batch render multiple tracks and multiple regions (as myself and Evosilica have identified). It's not a question of "why don't you just do it this way" - if you have to render 40+ different regions and multiple tracks, it needs to be automated. In my opinion, the dry output of STEMS and re-mastering in a new project would be the way to go - otherwise, you will have to use Mix Buss effects - which, in some peoples' workflow opinions, is a N00b move any way You should always do you Mastering in a separate process/project IMHO. But I digress...
T
Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap
Is there a way when rendering stems to have the master fx included?
After rendering the main mix I export the stems to use with Ableton, but the master fx don't seem to be included and it's a bit of a pain to solo and render everything individually...
Am I missing something?
Also does anyone know if stem rendering takes into account all routing and sidechaining going on in the whole mix? I would assume it does, but just wanted to be sure.
(thanks in advance)
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06-19-2015, 04:26 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Austria/Europe
Posts: 216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rideout
- for EVOSILICA - the *OTHER* perhaps more sensible way of doing this (for your 100+ STEMs) would be a two-step process:
- render your STEMs *without mix buss / master buss effects;
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That's what I did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Rideout
- re-import these STEMs into a mastering project where you could apply effects on a Master Bus, across all stems, if you can; or set up a few different mastering chains. This is often how it is done in the CD/record industry
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Didn't work, as the FX-chain in question was way to CPU heavy (~15 plugins / ~ 6% CPU usage) to be copied over 100s of tracks.
Btw my PC is quite powerful (i7 3930K 6-core OCd @ 4.0Ghz)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish
Reaper's Batch file converter can batch render audiofiles through an FX chain.
Maybe this helps ?
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This did the trick nicely! Many Thanks!!
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03-13-2016, 04:56 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 210
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Sadly, it seems I can't select tracks in REAPER's batch file converter, only separate media items...
X-Raym did anything come of your script? That would be possibly very helpful to me. If it can do that already, could you set it up in a way that it only renders the selected tracks with each one solo'ed after the other? (that is roughly what your script does, right?)
Also I don't get why REAPER can't simply add "Export all tracks with full FX" and possibly an alternate "Export selected tracks only with full FX" option to the export dialog. It's not that hard, and there's obviously a demand.
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03-13-2016, 05:03 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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@MrJones
You can actually export selected tracks by using the Render to file -> Source -> Stems (selected tracks option).
I didn't make this script but I think someone else does it... or maybe it was with sends. I'll make a quick research.
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03-13-2016, 06:51 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Raym
@MrJones
You can actually export selected tracks by using the Render to file -> Source -> Stems (selected tracks option).
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Well, obviously, that is utterly useless to me since I need them with full FX. (also see thread title) That is why I asked for the script. :-)
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03-13-2016, 08:28 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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Ok so it defintely seems that it needs a script,
Do you want it to have a "render with sends" mod ?
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03-13-2016, 09:01 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 210
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Preferably I would like to have it the same effect as described here, which is simply the same as if I SOLO'd each track after the other and rendered it manually. --> with all sends, all parent FX, .. (as long as they would be audible with the track on SOLO)
Since I need to omit certain folder-only parent tracks, it would help if it had the option to only export the selected tracks in the project. However, it would be doable for me to manually delete the unneeded tracks later if such an option is not easily possible
Thanks very much for looking into this!!
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03-13-2016, 11:02 AM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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Ok, after a bit of research and programming,
going through master doesn't allow the $track wildcard
In fact, the best way to render selected tracks through master is to use Region Manager (no script needed).
Just create a region that has the length of the desired render, and select track within the region manager it should work like expected
No script needed !
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03-13-2016, 03:56 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 210
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Ok I tried what you suggested. Sadly it doesn't work at all, REAPER still doesn't seem to be considering any parent track folder FX in the render... (which I need and which is what a solo would do)
I basically get the same or a very similar result to a stem render, and not the entire FX pipeline of each track through all parents up to Master FX.
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03-13-2016, 04:21 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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@MrJones
hmmm I didn't test it I was quite sure it will work.
Well if you don't need the $track wildcard then I can still share the script I made. But at this time, I don't see any way to output file with first selected track name or $tracknumber.
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03-13-2016, 04:54 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 210
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The script api seems to have an export function for the entire song to a given file (RenderFileSelection), and there's a way to solo tracks. At this point I might just read myself a bit deeper into ReaScript... anyway, couldn't you just solo all the selected tracks one after another and then render "regularly" with RenderFileSelection? PS: I have barely a clue about the ReaScript api so maybe this idea is silly
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03-13-2016, 05:10 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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@MrJones
as you can see from the function parameter
Code:
reaper.RenderFileSection(string source_filename, string target_filename, number start_percent, number end_percent, number playrate)
it works by providing a file as source, not projects tracks.
If you want to learn more about ReaScript and how to read the API doc, you can go to my Learn ReaScript Tutorials series (link in my signature).
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03-13-2016, 05:18 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,876
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Script uploaded on my free script pack under Various/X-Raym_Render selected tracks individually through master.lua
Don't forget to add incrementation or other ways to avoid file name collision.
Cheers !
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