Old 07-25-2016, 10:52 AM   #1
Steve T
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Default Multiple Takes With Punch-Ins

Hi folks,

Sorry that the subject title isn't very descriptive of my issue but I had problems wording it. Here's the problem I'm trying to solve.

Let's say I record a guitar solo track, which off and on is being played throughout the whole song. I have a few clams, so I perform some splits to cut them out. In one section, I have a 4 measure phrase that I don't like, so I cut it out entirely. I also perform some punch-ins in a few places. I'm close, but just decide to try a whole new take. This time, I'm happy with the whole performance and want to use the 2nd take. The thing is, the 2nd take was done in one pass but has all the splits from the previous punch-ins and that cut from the 4 measure phrase. I can consolidate the new track, but I think that only affects it visually. To be safe, what I do is to delete all the items that appear on the screen except the very first one, and grab and drag it out to the end of the song. Now, it looks like the contiguous file I just recorded and it's all there.

What I'm hoping to do is avoid any manual intervention with this in the first place. Can I set Reaper up so my new track, recorded once from start to finish, does not have any of the punch-ins or cuts from the previous take? I don't really want to use a new track for every take to avoid this.

The new take may be completely different than the first take so some of these split points might impact the new take. It becomes a real mess if I have 8 tracks of drums, 5 takes, with multiple punch-ins per take.

Hope this makes sense. Thanks in advance for any guidance.

-Steve
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:24 AM   #2
Jack Ruston
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Steve, this is perhaps the most contentious issue in Reapers generally very sound approach to recording audio. There are a whole load of people who think that the takes system is totally bonkers, and find it very difficult, if not impossible to use for multitrack work. Then there are a load of people who really like it, and argue that others don't really understand how to use it properly (they sometimes have a point) or that people should work differently (not so much)...the long and the short of it is that the takes system as it stands thinks in terms of items, not in terms of tracks. If you try to force it into behaving like your typical tracks-based takes system, it's going to get confusing.

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Old 07-25-2016, 12:24 PM   #3
Steve T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Ruston View Post
Steve, this is perhaps the most contentious issue in Reapers generally very sound approach to recording audio. There are a whole load of people who think that the takes system is totally bonkers, and find it very difficult, if not impossible to use for multitrack work. Then there are a load of people who really like it, and argue that others don't really understand how to use it properly (they sometimes have a point) or that people should work differently (not so much)...the long and the short of it is that the takes system as it stands thinks in terms of items, not in terms of tracks. If you try to force it into behaving like your typical tracks-based takes system, it's going to get confusing.

J
Thanks for your reply, Jack. I am assuming I'm in the camp that likely doesn't understand how to use it (takes) properly. That's why I thought I'd come here and ask.

I don't understand how the item of one take takes on characteristics of previous takes. Meaning any splits due to punch-ins or editing of a previous take (items) are reflected in the next take. Perhaps I could consolidate in between Take1 and Take2, etc., but if I'm recording a number of drum tracks that becomes a time waster between takes.

I haven't given up hope yet that I'm just doing something wrong. Surely this is a nuisance for others and someone has a more elegant solution than my manual one (delete all items except the first one, then drag out the first one to the end of the timeline).

Thanks!
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:47 PM   #4
Gerry P
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Check out one of Kenny Gioia's great videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilX2...rsPbhI1rL4xWEv
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:56 PM   #5
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To be safe, what I do is to delete all the items that appear on the screen except the very first one, and grab and drag it out to the end of the song. Now, it looks like the contiguous file I just recorded and it's all there.
First off, don't cut out or delete take sections yet. For where you want to replace a clam, just set the selection to cover that section and auto punch in. When you are done 'select' the takes you want to keep and choose Take > Crop Take - done. However, it's less destructive to just select the takes you like then CTRL+L to hide all the other currently unused takes. It just looks like a track with your edits at that point and you can crop to take (which removes the unused takes) later when/if ready.

Reaper takes confuse some, especially when dealing with say multiple entire band takes (although for whatever reason they don't bother me). But for what you are explaining, it should be easy peasy. As Gerry stated, watch Kenny's video, that's a great start. Btw, dragging the splits around is damn handy FYI.

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The thing is, the 2nd take was done in one pass but has all the splits from the previous punch-ins and that cut from the 4 measure phrase.
This throws many people, 99% of the time its a visual trip up and has nothing to do with obstructing what you need to get done. If those splits weren't there you couldn't make choices about which parts of take one you wish to keep (assuming take one is multiple passes and take two isn't).
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:12 PM   #6
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I'm not explaining myself very well. Sorry. I know how to comp multiple takes. I have no problem with that and it's not what I'm talking about.

This is only coming up now because of the group I'm currently working with. The way they want to work is that they want to record drum tracks to some existing guide tracks. Then, they want to try some punch-ins to that first take to get it as good as possible. Keep in mind, they don't already have something concrete to play so there's some experimentation. So, we're now done with whatever punch-ins they want to try and I've comp'd the best parts for them. They hear it, think they can do better and nail it in one pass and track a whole new pass from beginning to end. It's a totally different performance. We decide to keep the new take as-is. I don't want to comp anything from the previous first take or any of the previous punch-ins. I only need the last take with no edits, no comps, as-is. Visually, the last take I'm going to use looks a mess. I can crop to active take and get rid of the other take and punch-ins, that's not what I'm talking about. The new take, which should be 1 contiguous item is actually a number of items carried over from the punch-ins and edits from the 1st take and all of the punch-ins.

I can understand this behavior if all I'm doing is working with the original take with multiple punch-ins. I simply audition, comp the parts I want to keep, crop to active take. I'm not so worried with the auto cross fades and the punch-in/out points because I planned around that already with what's been played. I'll chose spots where I'm not going to step on anything.

But I don't want any of those punch-in/out splices with cross fades on my next take. The performance is completely different. We're starting over. If things go well, I won't need access to any of the previous take or punch-ins. However, if things don't go well, the drummer wants the option to fallback to the 1st take with all the punch-ins, so I don't want to delete those items before tracking the 2nd take.

Now, in reality it was a bit worse than this because we actually did 5 takes. The first four all had some punch-ins. The last take was perfect with no punch-ins. Instead of it having the appearance of a single item, the last take consisted of 40 or so items. One or more of those punch-in/out points with a cross fade might step on the last performance (the 5th take).

I've already described how I can manually fix this. I'm just wanting to work more efficiently. I'm looking for an option that when I record a new take, from start to finish, produces a single item just like the very first take did. I do not want the new take to carry over punch-in\out markers/auto cross fades from the previous take.

I do realize that if I don't touch the first take and just record 3 takes in a row, it's easy to comp from there. That's typically how I've been using the program. I get that. These guys are different. They want to play around which each take before going to a full new one from scratch.

I've worked years without needing this so I can understand it might be kind of a niche thing. It might be kind of hard to relate to unless you've found yourself in a similar situation. Kenny makes wonderful videos but I haven't seen this particular thing covered.
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:24 PM   #7
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A picture is worth 1,000 words, but a video is worth...
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:37 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Steve T View Post
The new take, which should be 1 contiguous item is actually a number of items carried over from the punch-ins and edits from the 1st take and all of the punch-ins.
I'm with ya, it's just those splits on the contiguous take don't bother me; since my takes are autocolored my brain sort of ignores the splits and uses the color to designate continuity but that's just what I'm used to. You could play with this FWIW...

Options > New Recording that overlaps existing media items:

~ Split existing item and create new takes
~ Trims existing items behind new recording
~ Creates new media items in separate lanes (layers)

The first one is what you are using now, you could potentially use the third or flip between the two as you go depending which would give you some items that contain multiple takes which inherit all splits and others under those that are single contiguous items but still different takes. You could also use the second one for some punch ins if you know they are clams and you don't want them anyway which is a tape mode type behavior.
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:10 PM   #9
Steve T
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I'm with ya, it's just those splits on the contiguous take don't bother me; since my takes are autocolored my brain sort of ignores the splits and uses the color to designate continuity but that's just what I'm used to. You could play with this FWIW...

Options > New Recording that overlaps existing media items:

~ Split existing item and create new takes
~ Trims existing items behind new recording
~ Creates new media items in separate lanes (layers)

The first one is what you are using now, you could potentially use the third or flip between the two as you go depending which would give you some items that contain multiple takes which inherit all splits and others under those that are single contiguous items but still different takes. You could also use the second one for some punch ins if you know they are clams and you don't want them anyway which is a tape mode type behavior.
Ok, now were touching on the possible solution. I need to play with those different options to see how they work. I don't necessarily want to lose that first default option as it does work well when just recording full takes and comp'ing later. It is handy. The reason I need to play a bit is that I'm not going to know ahead of time what may come up. Maybe some typical multi takes with comp'ing plus a separate run thru that's the keeper track.

I'm interested in your comment about ignoring the splits. See, I'm not all that anal about the visual aspect. I can easily ignore the splits myself. Let me ask you about this scenario. In one performance, let's say I perform a punch-in just before a measure's downbeat. It's a clean punch as there are no cymbals ringing or anything else going on. So, there's a split with a quick cross fade and nothing audible during that split. Now, later, I perform a whole new take that's a keeper. In that same spot, this time there's a cymbal crash that carries over thru that downbeat. So now, I have a split with a cross fade in the middle of that cymbal ringing out. Wouldn't that be audible if I don't do something about it? It's more than just a visible thing, right? If it's only visible, then all this is over nothing. I don't care about the visible aspect of it all that much. I could have sworn I heard a cymbal ring cut in and out on a performance that was one take, start to finish. That's the actual concern.

I appreciate the feedback. Thanks!
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:29 PM   #10
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I would check and see to be sure but I don't remember it being a problem. It's always possible there could be some situation but I just checked a cymbal fade from a random track of overheads and I had and couldn't hear it for the life of me but that could be me. I measured and its only a 192 ms fade for both in and out.

Here is the test, let me know if you hear where the split is and/or if you cannot get to this link.

http://wallsonic.com/Split.mp3

You can also disable those, they are called tiny fades IIRC. I like it on if possible because it is such a great replacement for splitting at zero crossings in most cases if that makes any sense.
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Old 07-25-2016, 11:31 PM   #11
Steve T
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I would check and see to be sure but I don't remember it being a problem. It's always possible there could be some situation but I just checked a cymbal fade from a random track of overheads and I had and couldn't hear it for the life of me but that could be me. I measured and its only a 192 ms fade for both in and out.

Here is the test, let me know if you hear where the split is and/or if you cannot get to this link.

http://wallsonic.com/Split.mp3

You can also disable those, they are called tiny fades IIRC. I like it on if possible because it is such a great replacement for splitting at zero crossings in most cases if that makes any sense.
I hear something that sounds like a splice. Just after that last cymbal crash. Anyway, even if I'm right, point taken. I'd unlikely hear in it a full mix. I appreciate the dialog. Thanks!
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:46 AM   #12
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I hear something that sounds like a splice. Just after that last cymbal crash. Anyway, even if I'm right, point taken. I'd unlikely hear in it a full mix.
There are about 10 splits starting a couple seconds after the crash as the one cymbal rings out and slowly fades if that helps; I chose those since that would be the most vulnerable scenario for hearing if hearable.




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I appreciate the dialog. Thanks!
Same here.
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