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Old 08-12-2008, 08:44 PM   #121
Magoostus
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Default magoostus is lemons?

Next time you provide proof and and insight and.. *PROOF* and reasoning, i will retract my statements and follow the straight and narrow path of righteousness which hopefully zee follows.

What we don't want is the blind leading the blind

So c'mon. More numbers, less philosophy
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:44 PM   #122
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After posting like 20 times in this thread, 1) you've yet to produce one single shred of evidence; 2) you've yet to back up your ideas with anything even resembling logic; 3) you've resorted to rhetoric and name-calling; 4) you've put up so many straw-men we could start a nasty fire in here.

Here's some simple integer summing:
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = troll.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:52 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngarjuna View Post
Here's some simple integer summing:
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = troll.

lol. pwnd!
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:54 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Proof ?
Here's your proof :

I am not alone.
No shit, man, you have squirrels in your attic.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:00 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Zee View Post
I know how hard it is to believe....

But anyone of you guys was to experiment and hear what I heard , your arms would fall off, and after your confusion had disolved, you would definetly be on our side.....
Why do you require *armless* converts to your imaginary yet mildly entertaining crusade exactly?

But, again, I defer to those enlightened beings kickin' it at the disco.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:04 PM   #126
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Default Actually...

My amd cpu has a better sound than my intel cpu. lol
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:06 PM   #127
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Default Zee is...

Zee is General Control unit, right ?

Our "Pro" theme guy, right ?


Ann Onymous
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:08 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magoostus View Post
My amd cpu has a better sound than my intel cpu. lol
No, no, the latest intel quad processors totally nail that vintage tape vibe. Totally.
Trust me or your arms will fly off in confusion of our sides.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:09 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Dali View Post
Zee is General Control unit, right ?

Our "Pro" theme guy, right ?


Ann Onymous
I doubt it. More likely the Steinberg Summer Intern Program finally getting into full swing.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:10 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
I think we have to pick words carefully, me the first, I admit.

Reaper sounds good.....

Some daws sound better tho
And some sound incredibly better in everyways....But they all have way less editing and mixing features... Wich explains why I am here despite the fact that I won't make any compromise on the sound...Wich translates by: I would definetly make reaper my main and only daw was it to sound good enough for it.
So what other DAWs sound is good enough for you?
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:20 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magoostus View Post
My amd cpu has a better sound than my intel cpu. lol
Well chances are if you got one of those intel fpus your statement might actually be true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:47 PM   #132
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Well chances are if you got one of those intel fpus your statement might actually be true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug
They'll be collectors items one day
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:06 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
Well chances are if you got one of those intel fpus your statement might actually be true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug

"No matter what I do, I cant get that sweet warm punchy tube-like sound of the pentium FDIV bug. no other processor can re-create that most coveted and authentic signature sound." LOL

I sound like those guys using old vintage tape machines for big $$$
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:31 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Proof ?
Here's your proof :
I am not alone.
(If I was to submit you with waves to null, I bet you'd be stupid enough to null them inside a single daw...) lol

Just curious, did you yourself do the null test?
If not, why not?
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:15 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Wavelab and Nuendo are both Steinberg's software and yet they don't sound the same playing a single mono track
Really?

Can you tell me what kind of acoustics environment you did this "hearing test" in?

Was it an anechoic chamber, and did you clamp your head in a vise to keep your ears from changing their absolute position?

If you did not do your hearing tests in such an environment, your test is entirely flawed, because if you move your head even a few millimeters, your ears will hear the sound differently . . . ESPECIALLY if it is not a completely anechoic chamber, because in any other environment you would be experiencing a great deal of comb filtering off any room boundaries and/or nearby surfaces (such as a desk, etc.).

Such comb filtering, even at its subtlest, would introduce FAR more noticeable colouration than you are likely to hear from any possible minor differences in summing maths. And, with the proper anechoic environment and a firmly mounted microphone, you could most certainly test and prove that effect.

That said, if you still insist that your golden ears are so much better than the rest of ours, and that you can hear the difference between two files that null . . . I should mention that I've got some AMAZING mains power cable I'll be more than happy to sell you for the bargain price of $895.50 a foot. I guarantee you'll hear more "bloom" in the sound of your system. I also have a very small quantity left of my specially designed, limited edition power amp volume knobs made from an endangered hardwood I pilfered from the Brazilian rain forest (off the Anavilhanas Archipelago in the Rio Negro). You won't believe the incredible improvement in the transient response of your amps . . . must be heard to be believed! For you, I'll sell these at a special one time only discount -- only $1149.99 each! Please let me know if you are interested in any of these items, as I could really stand to clean out some inventory.
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:55 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by scottdru View Post
Really?

Was it an anechoic chamber, and did you clamp your head in a vise to keep your ears from changing their absolute position?
if ever you need to clamp head position using something stable to bite on is good - an old trick from brain imaging
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:08 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottdru View Post
Really?
Was it an anechoic chamber, and did you clamp your head in a vise to keep your ears from changing their absolute position?
Arrrgg!!! what about inherent vibrations of the clamping system. You have to make sure that its natural vibrations will be far out both from the hearing range and from potential cranium exciter frequencies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scottdru View Post
Such comb filtering, even at its subtlest, would introduce FAR more noticeable colouration than you are likely to hear from any possible minor differences in summing maths.
OK, I totally agree with your post. However (or else this would not be fun) I guess there are other parameters involved.

A test I did rewire Propellerheads Reason through Abelton Live gave a totally f***d up sound, dynamics were really .. absent, like if they had been heavily compressed o_O. Discussed the subject with a few other persons who either encountered the issue or heard about it. Enough to say that algorithms other than summing (which you should only start to hear/measure in conditions maximizing the algorithm errors, mixing lots of high amplitude tracks together, with a high-end D/A converter etc...), in my case ReWire, and probably a few (hidden?) others as well, are probably in use.

Found this funny as I know a bit about scientific codes, and there should not be significant differences in summing under standard conditions, the only plausible solution I found Is that some DAW have the software equivalent of "bass boost" function to make it sound "betta n' louda!"

BTW this is how I came to Reason, trying several DAWs until I found one with clean audio engine and an interface I felt comfortable with.

Zee: If you really did find a better software, give us the name for us to test and stop trolling.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:23 AM   #138
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Guys and Girls,

The audio is treated and get changed from all things that take part in the process, also take notice that after you're done with the "pure" sound you created your masterpiece will go to a factory and get replicated, so how exactly do you know if the machine that does the replication is a M2 or a Singulus, both great companies but with different output, usually in jitter and reflectivity, both factors affecting the final playback quality of your work.

In the purists I have to say that, you have to look further into the creating process of music and sound, cause this is art, and I'm not surely convinced that Picasso's paintbrush didn't lose any hair in the process. Better find your selfs good artists to record and the music will flow.

In the other end, the digital revolution got many people believing that they are producers just because they have a bunch of plugins in their hard drive and some people tell them so. To those I say, read more, try more, try to learn about the science behind the fiction.

Now to the guy that started the thread, I suggest you provide some real proof of what you are claiming, or with different words, put your science where your mouth is, cause in every other case you are keeping the info you gained over the years for your self, and that's not progress. I also did many tests and searched with many friends of mine in different studios for the problems in various exportings from software sequencers. But if you like to talk seriously here provide some evidence and the experimental conditions so we can recreate the process. And don;t forget, even Ainstain didn't kept the info for himself, try to be a little more open minded, or else what do you expect from a forum.

Best wishes to all.

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Old 08-13-2008, 05:17 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dali View Post
Zee is General Control unit, right ?

Our "Pro" theme guy, right ?


Ann Onymous
I was thinking the same thing...
more along the lines of his DAW ships with "Pro" UI too. Which of course makes it sound better.
Friggin Great.
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:37 AM   #140
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Beethoven wouldn't have tolerated this nonsense...

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Old 08-13-2008, 05:58 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Stone View Post
Beethoven wouldn't have tolerated this nonsense...

GREAT POINT!!!!!

could you image Beethoven, Mozart, Tchykovski (?) sitting in a (chat) room arguing over who's sound is more pure because "their" piano's screw pins hold the strings at just the right tension so that A is ALWAYS 440. This, of course, figured because of the geometry of the construction with piano size, wood type, string material, diameter and overall length and the number of winds on the screw pin, the angle that the hammer strikes the string, and the material on the head of the hammer, all taken into account.
Cheers,
MoodSwinger

EDIT: There have been and always will be these arguments, in the days of analog, It was mics, cables, tape brand, recorder brand, person sweeping the floor, whatever. It may sound blasphemous but I hope I NEVER listen to any recording that close (but thanks to those of you who do), and if for some reason I do, I'm obviously not enjoying what I'm hearing.
As has been pointed out MANY times...
Great records have been made on crappy equipment, crappy records have been made on great equipment.
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And once upon a time, so pure and crystalline,
the sounds would change by what the MOOD defined.
....
if there's a sound you play, that doesn't fit today,
why not just play the bastard anyway.

Be Schitzophonic.

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Old 08-13-2008, 08:47 AM   #142
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scottdru.
re volume knobs.
i blew tea all over my monitor.
what a hero with that post.
thanks for the giggle.

just remember chaps to get the right bluesy gritty vintage vocal, you must remember to smoke the proper gitanes,
and drink canadian red rose tea..preferably the version they used to make in eastern canada.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:10 AM   #143
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Zee is not GeneralControlUnit.
GCU is always articulate, rational, logical and scientific. Even if he didn't provide specific details he would always give a rational reason to do so. No matter how obtuse his social skills are is evident that he is an intelligent person (or machine. I'm still not convinced he's entirely human).

On the other hand...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Proof ?
Here's your proof :

I am not alone.

(If I was to submit you with waves to null, I bet you'd be stupid enough to null them inside a single daw...) lol
Someone please kill this thread.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:22 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerMetzgermeister View Post
Zee is not GeneralControlUnit.
GCU is always articulate, rational, logical and scientific. Even if he didn't provide specific details he would always give a rational reason to do so. No matter how obtuse his social skills are is evident that he is an intelligent person.
I can agree with that.

Tho' it did, admittedly, right off make me think of the "pro" theme thread from last month.
Boy what will it be next month. Ahhh..."MIDI improvements"

Find out if Justin can really improve the sound engine...zap...
If Schwa finally gives MIDI some much needed love....POW....
Where Christophe's been hiding (c'mon show us that avatar)...BANG!!!..
If Cockos finally sells out to big business...OOOOOuch...
See you then.....
"Same Bat Time, same Bat Channel"
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And once upon a time, so pure and crystalline,
the sounds would change by what the MOOD defined.
....
if there's a sound you play, that doesn't fit today,
why not just play the bastard anyway.

Be Schitzophonic.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:06 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottdru View Post
I've got some AMAZING mains power cable I'll be more than happy to sell you for the bargain price of $895.50 a foot. I guarantee you'll hear more "bloom" in the sound of your system. I also have a very small quantity left of my specially designed, limited edition power amp volume knobs made from an endangered hardwood I pilfered from the Brazilian rain forest (off the Anavilhanas Archipelago in the Rio Negro). You won't believe the incredible improvement in the transient response of your amps . . . must be heard to be believed! For you, I'll sell these at a special one time only discount -- only $1149.99 each! Please let me know if you are interested in any of these items, as I could really stand to clean out some inventory.
I got Scott's Platinum Plated Super Acoutstical Superbity DAW Mega Knob, made partially from the sarcophagus of King Tut, and the banisters in the Grand Ball Room of the Titanic for my DAW, and my system sounds so much more professional than before. And, for only $10,019.99 USD, it was TOTALLY worth it.

Here's a picture of my new, totally pro knob setup. I can really hear the difference with this puppy!

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Old 08-13-2008, 11:29 AM   #146
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So Zee, with your superior sound, what chart topping hits have you mixed that the general Reaperites haven't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
If I record a track in a daw and then feel like eq'ing and adding compression and then some reverb then some high-end exciter and high shelf eq...

I'll tell myself that the second daw sounds better.... Even if I wouldn't know why...
wait, your DAW automatically compresses, EQ's, reverbs, and excites to a perfect sound on input?!?!?!? No wonder it sounds better! I gotta get me some of that!
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:46 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
If I record a track in a daw and then feel like eq'ing and adding compression and then some reverb then some high-end exciter and high shelf eq...

If then, I use the same setup to record the same riff in an other daw and then feel like ''wow, it already sounds good''...
you guys read this, right? this dude is RE-recording the stuff in the other daw.

i think i might open up a third side of this 'discussion'. my point: you are all retarded!

zee is retarded for not knowing what a DAW really does (and comparing what again???).
and the rest of you are retarded for arguing with him.

fine, you guys are not retarded, but simply used to having this discussion over and over.
seriously - have you read his posts? he is RE-RECORDING the stuff for crying out loud! THAT'S HIS TEST!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
Of course if you make to daws sound the same they will null !!!

The question is : Do they require the same process to sound the same ?
this dude is basically saying: if he uses another daw, his results are better. that can be caused by anything from 'inspiring colors in the GUI' to 'other built-in effects'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee View Post
I suppose that most of you guys also think that all reverb plugins are equal ?
he's forming an analogy between DAWs and REVERBS! seriously, have you guys read his posts???

awesome thread, continue!
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:58 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_P_Critter View Post
I got Scott's [B]Platinum Plated Super Acoutstical Superbity DAW Mega Knob... for my DAW, and my system sounds so much more professional than before. And, for only $10,019.99 USD, it was TOTALLY worth it.

Here's a picture of my new, totally pro knob setup. I can really hear the difference with this puppy!

LMAO! .
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:12 PM   #149
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I think the problem is, that every one of you think, and believe, that every DAW make a simple summing, ultiplying operations only. It's logical that this kind of operations should give us the most neutral characteristics. But be honest, nobody's ear's really like this kind of pristines. Whole industry is going two ways. One guys makes opamps and preamps optimizations for better parameters, second ones optimizes them by hearing what's better. Those two makes fairly differend sounding devices. Most of people like un-neutral sound. That's why we use compressors for example. That's why analogue summing busses are so likely used still in those days. THER ARENT made for the best parameters. Imagine that You paint a picture with dots. If you want it to be more natural from close distance, you shoud to make those dot's smaller. If you gow far away from that picture, even then smaller dot's whould look nicer. But you can trust me, even with very small dots, the best effect would be when you just blur the picture and make the collors more vivid. That's our senses nature.

So what I'm trying to say. I Think that many programmers that are aware of those non-linearities that we like and linearities that we want, but couldn't find in analogue equipment implement them into their DAW's summing engine. It's not allways that you can hear it straight, sometimes it's just the way that you work with it.

Example. Try to mix drums into group channel and put to this group compressor, the best would be R-comp made by WAVES. IT HAS TO BE AN OPTO TYPE COMPRESSOR!!! Otherwise it won't work. Set it with those parameters:
characteristics: OPTO, SMOOTH
RATIO: 2:1
Attack: 2ms
Release: 300ms
Treshold: make it as deep so the gain reduction doesn't get more than 4dB in peaks. Even 2dB.

The difference: Hear by yourself, but I guarantee you that it would be very small diference, but very helpfull in whole mix and now the faders of drum tracks will work different, so your mixing procedure will be differend. If you like it, it's nothing weird, it's the comression that SSL 4000 has normally in their summing busses. It's they working nature. But remember, it's just an emmulation, it's not exactly the same like in SSL.

Regards to All of you and have a nice fun.

P.S. REMEMBER IT IS THE BEST TO USE R-COMP no othrt, it has the wright character.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:23 PM   #150
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I'm not sure i should take this seriously or not but here goes.

Its possible your video card places interference/junk in your analog audio signals.

Its possible that different colours being generated by the video card, results in different sounding noise/junk being placed in your analog audio signals.

If you have ever tested multiple dither types, you will be aware that different types of noise in the lower levels have an impact on the overall sound and fidelity.

Have you tried switching themes and listening for a change?

Have you tried whacking up your monitors and listening for interference from parts of your computer?

Have you tried comparing DAW's with di boxes between the sound card and monitors?

Be aware that reaper is 64 bit, others are 32 bit, sending either signal bit depth to say a 24 bit converter, results in truncation. I'm not very sure but i would imagine that 64 bit truncated to 24, would sounds subtlety different to 32 bit truncated to 24 bit.

Sorry but thats the best i can do for now!
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:04 PM   #151
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Sorry, but this is all that comes to my mind reading this thread.
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