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Old 10-09-2019, 08:21 AM   #1
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Default I'm pretty much compression free now

When I see the dozens of compressors I have installed and the hundreds that are available on the internet I'm shaking my head and wondering why as I'm using them less and less.

As a huge fan of Bruce swedien and the Michael Jackson albums I have come around to his way of thinking that compression is for kids. I totally use so much more volume Automation and riding the faders but I am now a firm believer with Bruce that compression just kills transients and offers not enough in return.

I do sometimes use the free tri-leveler plugin if I want to limit the volume on a track and don't want to bother automating it, but for all of the compressors out there, I have less and less use for them.

Also for me the albums off the wall and Thriller are still the most dynamic and interesting albums to me sonically along with of course my mutt Lange favorites by Shania Twain and the Corrs (In blue).

Think different!

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/q-a-...sion-kids.html
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:34 AM   #2
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Well I'm personally loving the U-he Presswerk compressor I just bought in the last 30 days. It has controls where I can squash the dynamics, but then do things like tweak variable non-linear curve and soft knee controls to fine tune it. Plus it's variable parallel compression controls include a HP filter for the dry side so you can bring back the airy edge to vocal tracks when dialing uncompressed signal back in, except it will have less impact on volume since lower frequency content has been removed.

Presswerk is one of the best higher dollar purchases I've made in a good minute with plugins. I used it extensively on my most recent project and love the results I got using it.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:54 AM   #3
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Well I'm personally loving the U-he Presswerk compressor I just bought in the last 30 days. It has controls where I can squash the dynamics, but then do things like tweak variable non-linear curve and soft knee controls to fine tune it. Plus it's variable parallel compression controls include a HP filter for the dry side so you can bring back the airy edge to vocal tracks when dialing uncompressed signal back in, except it will have less impact on volume since lower frequency content has been removed.

Presswerk is one of the best higher dollar purchases I've made in a good minute with plugins. I used it extensively on my most recent project and love the results I got using it.
If you really need to control Dynamics why not just ride the faders and automate the volume and still keep all of your Dynamics and not change the sound quality at all
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:28 AM   #4
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why not just ride the faders and automate the volume and still keep all of your Dynamics and not change the sound quality at all
What do you think a compressor is doing that your volume automation isn't?

Aggressive automation will kill dynamics and transients just as easily as an aggressive compressor because a compressor is just an automatic fader-rider. Compressors don't kill transients unless you set them that way.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:33 AM   #5
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Well I'm an addict...

But yea I think if the compressor is killing transients and that's not desired it's either the wrong compressor for the job or wrongly used.

I'm most frequently using them on parallel busses though, so the original transients remain untouched.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:46 AM   #6
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Well I'm an addict...

But yea I think if the compressor is killing transients and that's not desired it's either the wrong compressor for the job or wrongly used.

I'm most frequently using them on parallel busses though, so the original transients remain untouched.
I am totally loving the implementation of U-he's parallel compression on Presswerk. The dry signal can be processed through a HP filter which lets you add back uncompressed signal that won't significantly increase the weight of the volume, and adds sheen/air back. It also has a button to add expansion on the dry signal as well which can be very cool on parallel compression.
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:43 AM   #7
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Well I'm an addict...
Did you try DMG TrackComp beta version with new modeled compressors?
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:13 AM   #8
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What do you think a compressor is doing that your volume automation isn't?

Aggressive automation will kill dynamics and transients just as easily as an aggressive compressor because a compressor is just an automatic fader-rider. Compressors don't kill transients unless you set them that way.
Shouldn't volume automation act exactly the same as a volume control? if I turn the volume control down on something that should not decrease transients it should only decrease the volume
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:22 AM   #9
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Shouldn't volume automation act exactly the same as a volume control? if I turn the volume control down on something that should not decrease transients it should only decrease the volume
Lowering the volume of a part whether done by a compressor or volume fader will make the part have more apparent dullness because it competes more and more with other things in the mix that occupy the same frequency spectrum.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:24 AM   #10
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Yeah, how tight and tricky are those automation envelopes you're drawing around transients?!

I'm a parallel processing addict too.

Just being able to grab bits of audio on the screen at will and adjust the level 'film clip' style to frame everything in initially is pretty quick and eliminates a good amount of need for compression as a safety valve.

If you set your monitor system for the -16 to -13 LUFS range everything makes more sense. The volume war masters you run across just sound stupid and trashy and make you jump for the volume. Make those the outliers to you, not the other way around, and everything gets easier.

The streaming services are hitting around -12 LUFS nowadays. Their source material is still often the volume war and treble blasted CD edition - which is a problem. But with the -12 LUFS normalization going on, those examples are really sounding like ass next to proper masters. Even after the lossy streaming treatment.

I digress, but the point was supposed to be that if you aren't trying to mix in just the very top 3db of your dynamic range with your monitor volume way down (from listening to those volume war CDs), you won't be reaching for a compressor as much.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:35 AM   #11
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What do you think a compressor is doing that your volume automation isn't?
It's flattening the waveform.


Also worth mentioning, in popular music there are hardly any dynamics. It's ALL LIKE THIS BAM BAM BAM. When music is played with proper feel and dynamics and arranged with the perfect mix of instrumentation and music arrangement, there is very little need for extreme dynamics control unless you want it as a special effect.

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Old 10-10-2019, 05:40 AM   #12
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It's flattering the waveform.
So is level automation. The only difference is the speed at which it is working.

Plus, as me and some others have said here, you can exaggerate the dynamic range as well as reduce the dynamic range with compression. It's all about the attack and release times.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:43 AM   #13
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Also worth mentioning, in popular music there are hardly any dynamics. It's ALL LIKE THIS BAM BAM BAM. When music is played with proper feel and dynamics and arranged with the perfect mix of instrumentation and music arrangement, there is very little need for extreme dynamics control.
I use compressors much more often to shape transient attack than I do for controlling dynamics in a levelling sense.

Compressors don't have to kill dynamics if you don't want them to.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:43 AM   #14
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It's flattening the waveform.
A compressor isn't doing anything that you couldn't do with a fader (limits of human speed aside).

If the transients are being flattened and you don't want them to be, then the compressor is set too fast or too aggressively. This isn't a problem with compression as a tool, it's a problem with either setting the knobs badly or using the wrong compressor.

Take a super-fast compressor and pull the ratio way down, to like 1.2 or something. Run a signal through and render the output. Have a look at the waveform. Is it flat? Probably not.

Take a really slow compressor and crank the ratio up to infinity. Is the transient flat? No.

Compressors are a tool, just like fader automation is a tool. I'd much rather let a compressor take care of the broad levelling so I don't have to and then automate some of the spikier bits myself as needed.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:13 PM   #15
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What do you think a compressor is doing that your volume automation isn't? ... because a compressor is just an automatic fader-rider. Compressors don't kill transients unless you set them that way.
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It's flattening the waveform.
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So is level automation. The only difference is the speed at which it is working.
Not to be pedantic (lol), but Retro Audio Enthusiast is generally correct here. Calling a compressor an "automatic fader rider" is a little dangerous, and saying that a fader is doing the same thing isn't quite accurate, most of the time. The reason being that a fader will adjust the entire period of a waveform as a unit, symmetrically altering its overall gain. The "problem" with a compressor is that it can ignore part of the waveform (the pre-threshold ascent) and only act on the portion that exceeds said threshold, resulting in distortion (the "flattening" to which Retro Audio Enthusiast is referring). You can turn a sine into a pseudo-square much more easily than you think, even with relatively gentle settings. In fact, the speed (pitch) of the waveform is often the main liability - low "E" on a bass guitar is 41Hz, or a period of 24ms - the average attack time on the LA2A is 10ms (!), ensuring that the first several frets will always incur collateral damage. (The waveform on an electric bass is more complex than a sine, so you aren't likely to notice it, but this post is about theory).

The maximum attack time on the 1176 is 800 MICROseconds - it's probably going to induce distortion no matter how "gentle" you are with the ratio.

Again, not bringing this up to be a jerk (lol), I just feel it's important to realize that compressors and "macro" automation aren't the same thing spectrally, and it's generally impossible to distort / flatten a single-cycle waveform with a channel fader - unless you start working with ultra-speed sample-level automation curves.

"Hey well thanks for listening" lol.

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Old 10-11-2019, 09:33 PM   #16
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ompressors don't kill transients...people do!
sorry Loka... I couldn't stop myelf... I'll try to do better next time
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:39 AM   #17
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If you really need to control Dynamics why not just ride the faders and automate the volume and still keep all of your Dynamics and not change the sound quality at all
You might as well stop using EQ too and just use geat mics and perfect placement to achieve the tone. You can absolutely do that but at what cost time wise?

Time is an extremely important aspect of making music for me. Knocking out lots music is the goal for me. Not the purity of how I created it. Plus, Presswerk has a whole section devoted to saturation from three different perspectives, which I use for altering the original sound, so it is even more impure, yet I still like it quite a bit aurally.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:14 AM   #18
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You might as well stop using EQ too and just use geat mics and perfect placement to achieve the tone. You can absolutely do that but at what cost time wise?

Time is an extremely important aspect of making music for me. Knocking out lots music is the goal for me. Not the purity of how I created it. Plus, Presswerk has a whole section devoted to saturation from three different perspectives, which I use for altering the original sound, so it is even more impure, yet I still like it quite a bit aurally.
I agree with you that time is important and I'm definitely learning from this group everyday. I definitely don't pretend to know it all but I am really getting closer to that Bruce swedien sound by using his techniques that I have been able to otherwise
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:15 AM   #19
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By the way my link in the Op is the original discussion of Bruce swedien talking about why he doesn't like compression in case anybody wants to read it
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:17 PM   #20
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You might as well stop using EQ too and just use geat mics and perfect placement to achieve the tone. You can absolutely do that but at what cost time wise?

Time is an extremely important aspect of making music for me. Knocking out lots music is the goal for me. Not the purity of how I created it.
You could save TONS of time by using high quality loops
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:33 PM   #21
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You could save TONS of time by using high quality loops
Are they compressed?
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:04 PM   #22
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compression is for kids
What a strange thing to say...
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:23 PM   #23
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compression is for kids
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What a strange thing to say...
And real guitars are for old people!

https://southpark.cc.com/clips/pa80cd/guitar-hero

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Old 10-10-2019, 05:58 AM   #24
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And real guitars are for old people!

https://southpark.cc.com/clips/pa80cd/guitar-hero

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Love that episode!

"He can play Guitar Hero acoustically *click click click click*"
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:31 AM   #25
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Love that episode!

"He can play Guitar Hero acoustically *click click click click*"
Freaking hilarious and a really sad commentary. Now I feel old.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:41 AM   #26
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Freaking hilarious and a really sad commentary. Now I feel old.
Did you note that they were in fact not using any compressors, but instead using plastic guitars with flip paddles and colored buttons!
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:07 AM   #27
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Freaking hilarious and a really sad commentary. Now I feel old.
The one that was even more of a profound commentary on society and the one that really made me feel old is when Kyle's brother's generation doesn't want to play a computer game - they want to watch someone else on Youtube play it.

Kids actually do want that now, it just blows my mind.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:09 PM   #28
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What a strange thing to say...
It's a quote from one of the worlds most successful mixers. Read the article in the op.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:18 PM   #29
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If you can't hear them, could you just let transients clip?
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:31 PM   #30
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So just to be clear, are we really supposed to believe that Thriller features no compression anywhere in the entire recording/mixing process?

That's a hard pill to swallow, but certainly an eye-opener if true.
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:21 AM   #31
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So just to be clear, are we really supposed to believe that Thriller features no compression anywhere in the entire recording/mixing process?

That's a hard pill to swallow, but certainly an eye-opener if true.
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=23

It's not true. We also don't know what dynamic processing was done to it during mastering.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:52 PM   #32
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Bruce Swedien is a fantastic mixer, and has a fantastic client roster including Quincy Jones, Herbie Hancock, and of course, Michael Jackson. Also of note, David Hasselhoff, as well.... ;-)

And yes, he hates compression. When you command the kind of $$ he did, you can certainly take the time to automate everything, and probably hire an assistant to get the rough done, allowing him to breeze in and put the final touches on the automation moves.

On the other side of the coin, we have somebody that LOVES compression. Chris Lord-Alge. HIS client roster is a virtual who's-who in the rock, pop and modern country genres, and he's well known for compressing everything in sight, and quite heavily at that, yet his mixes still move, breathe and pop.

Philosophically, compression is simply a tool, and in the end "if it sounds good, then it is good," no matter how you got there.

Practically, compression CAN be used for overall leveling (after all a leveling amp, like a Summit TLA-100, is really a compressor), it can ALSO be used to manipulate the envelope of a given instrument. Want more attack on a kick, but don't want to just peg the HF EQ? A comp with a medium-slow attack will do the trick. It won't (necessarily) increase the level of the kick, but it will allow the initial transient to poke out, and smack down the sustained body of the kick sound. Also, please note that Bruce worked primarily in the jazz genre, with Thriller being one of the few "rock records" in his discography. CLA, on the other hand, works in genres that lend themselves to the use of compression as an effect. He's not trying to maintain the purity of sound of an upright bass, he's got a 22-year old rock star in the booth banging away at a P-bass using a quarter for a pick...

As a purist, it's cool to say that "I don't use compression, I do automation instead!" That's all to the good, and I personally would salute anybody with that amount of patience (or an assistant engineer) who can sit down and automate the envelopes on a kick track of a 4-minute pop song. Personally, I'll just grab a comp and do essentially the same thing, only 200 times faster. From a pedagogical standpoint, I would advocate working on both, and see the benefits and drawbacks of each approach, to let you make an informed decision.

Then, we can get into the esoteric discussion of compressors as effects, rather than "engineering assistants." There is a "mojo" that comes from an LA-2A, and it's impossible to replicate any other way. Refusing to use it because it's a compressor and "I don't use compressors" simply takes a tool out of your box, and that's never a good thing. It may not be something you reach for often, or by default, but refusing to use it on principle is foolish.

Now, if you compress for effect, either for coloration or envelope control/modification, and then get down to phrase- and syllable-level automation as well, you might just have the best of both worlds.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:05 PM   #33
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Refusing to use it because it's a compressor and "I don't use compressors" simply takes a tool out of your box, and that's never a good thing. It may not be something you reach for often, or by default, but refusing to use it on principle is foolish.
Hear hear. Let's not forget that half our job as sound engineers is to convince everyone in the room that we know what we're doing, even if we don't. After all, each move we make is pretty minuscule on its own. So to adopt any axiom of 'always do this or that' just seems...well yea, "foolish;" don't care who posits it.
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Old 10-14-2019, 10:16 AM   #34
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Bruce Swedien is a fantastic mixer, and has a fantastic client roster including Quincy Jones, Herbie Hancock, and of course, Michael Jackson. Also of note, David Hasselhoff, as well.... ;-)

And yes, he hates compression. When you command the kind of $$ he did, you can certainly take the time to automate everything, and probably hire an assistant to get the rough done, allowing him to breeze in and put the final touches on the automation moves.

On the other side of the coin, we have somebody that LOVES compression. Chris Lord-Alge. HIS client roster is a virtual who's-who in the rock, pop and modern country genres, and he's well known for compressing everything in sight, and quite heavily at that, yet his mixes still move, breathe and pop.

Philosophically, compression is simply a tool, and in the end "if it sounds good, then it is good," no matter how you got there.

Practically, compression CAN be used for overall leveling (after all a leveling amp, like a Summit TLA-100, is really a compressor), it can ALSO be used to manipulate the envelope of a given instrument. Want more attack on a kick, but don't want to just peg the HF EQ? A comp with a medium-slow attack will do the trick. It won't (necessarily) increase the level of the kick, but it will allow the initial transient to poke out, and smack down the sustained body of the kick sound. Also, please note that Bruce worked primarily in the jazz genre, with Thriller being one of the few "rock records" in his discography. CLA, on the other hand, works in genres that lend themselves to the use of compression as an effect. He's not trying to maintain the purity of sound of an upright bass, he's got a 22-year old rock star in the booth banging away at a P-bass using a quarter for a pick...

As a purist, it's cool to say that "I don't use compression, I do automation instead!" That's all to the good, and I personally would salute anybody with that amount of patience (or an assistant engineer) who can sit down and automate the envelopes on a kick track of a 4-minute pop song. Personally, I'll just grab a comp and do essentially the same thing, only 200 times faster. From a pedagogical standpoint, I would advocate working on both, and see the benefits and drawbacks of each approach, to let you make an informed decision.

Then, we can get into the esoteric discussion of compressors as effects, rather than "engineering assistants." There is a "mojo" that comes from an LA-2A, and it's impossible to replicate any other way. Refusing to use it because it's a compressor and "I don't use compressors" simply takes a tool out of your box, and that's never a good thing. It may not be something you reach for often, or by default, but refusing to use it on principle is foolish.

Now, if you compress for effect, either for coloration or envelope control/modification, and then get down to phrase- and syllable-level automation as well, you might just have the best of both worlds.
Thanks for saving me from writing "essentially" the same thing. You're my compressor.

I fall more into the TLA camp. I was lucky enough to have him mix some stuff I did and he's such a generous guy that he told me all the settings he used. I played around with them but still went back to what I typically use.

Point is, we're all aiming at different targets. None of this stuff should get tribal or competitive. It's art. Create. Stop comparing tools as if a hammer is "better" than a screw-driver. Find what YOU like and do that for YOU.

Last edited by Kenny Gioia; 10-14-2019 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:57 AM   #35
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It's a quote from one of the worlds most successful mixers. Read the article in the op.
I read it many years ago.

He's been involved in a few good sounding albums. Had nothing at all to do with 99.9999% of the world's great music though so wouldn't exactly live my life by anything he says.

I fear you've taken a soundbite to heart.

As has been pointed out, it's not even true of his own mixes.

Unless you're recording classical or jazz then the idea of keeping the natural dynamics of instruments is completely arbitrary. I wonder if you think using a compressor will "reduce" something that is objectively good to have more of. In reality, a compressor won't even necessarily reduce the dynamic range, it can just change it or even increase it. Not that reducing it is objectively the wrong decision.

Alan Parsons used to be quoted a lot for saying he doesn't compress and people would take it the wrong way. His situation is very different because he sends his material to a mastering engineer who will compress it. People at home doing a one-man operation generally aren't.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:28 AM   #36
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I read it many years ago.

He's been involved in a few good sounding albums. Had nothing at all to do with 99.9999% of the world's great music though so wouldn't exactly live my life by anything he says.

I fear you've taken a soundbite to heart.
I have not taken a soundbite to heart. I have simply listened to music everyday for over 45 years and to my ears, "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" are two of the best sounding albums ever. I also put up the Mutt Lang produced Shania Twain albums, The Corrs (In Blue) and AC/DC.

The sound on the Bruce Swedien / Michael Jackson albums has bass, highs and dynamics unmatched on other albums to my ears. So it's not the interview that has me so interested but the end result albums. They sound better than anything else I have ever heard.

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Old 10-10-2019, 07:06 AM   #37
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I have not taken a soundbite to heart. I have simply listened to music everyday for over 45 years and to my ears, "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" are two of the best sounding albums ever. I also put up the Mutt Lang produced Shania Twain albums, The Corrs (In Blue) and AC/DC.

The sound on the Bruce Swedien / Michael Jackson albums has bass, highs and dynamics unmatched on other albums to my ears. So it's not the interview that has me so interested but the end result albums. They sound better than anything else I have ever heard.
I suppose if you really do prefer the sound of his albums to all others then it would make sense to go for his methods.

What about the fact that it's been pointed out he does indeed compress though?

For me some things sounds as bad with no compression as they do with too much compression. Modern mainstream pop vocals are too compressed for my taste but a voice without compression rarely sounds good either to me.

Bass is definitely one that sounds much better compressed though, on the Jacko stuff, I think it's synth bass so would already have the dynamic response of a bass guitar put through a compressor.

I do agree that Thriller is amazing btw, just not necessarily better than other albums that also sound great.

I'm glad that the battle has been won against those who compressed the whole mix just for loudness - that was when it was terrible; they knew it made it sound worse but took bullet in order to be loud.

I think a 2-bus/master compressor can sound great and a record can even sound good with none but I don't think removing compressing entirely, even from individual instruments, is a valid next goal.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:07 AM   #38
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They sound better than anything else I have ever heard.
Truth.

I also love the reply to Bruce's post where some bedroom producer with an SM58 and a Focusrite thinks he knows better.
The internet is full of amateurs with opinions that think they know better than world-class pros.

Glad this sort of thing doesn't go on here.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:00 AM   #39
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I have not taken a soundbite to heart. I have simply listened to music everyday for over 45 years and to my ears, "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" are two of the best sounding albums ever. I also put up the Mutt Lang produced Shania Twain albums, The Corrs (In Blue) and AC/DC.

The sound on the Bruce Swedien / Michael Jackson albums has bass, highs and dynamics unmatched on other albums to my ears. So it's not the interview that has me so interested but the end result albums. They sound better than anything else I have ever heard.

I'm just going to point out that some of the credit you are giving to Bruce Swedien absolutely should go to Bernie Grundman.

While he has had plenty of good things to say about Swedien's work, you are kidding yourself if you think that Grundman's know-how wasn't a big part of how that record(well, records) wound up sounding.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:40 AM   #40
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I'm pretty much compression free now
My deepest condolences.
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