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Old 10-10-2019, 01:43 AM   #41
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Well I'm an addict...
Did you try DMG TrackComp beta version with new modeled compressors?
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:40 AM   #42
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I'm pretty much compression free now
My deepest condolences.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:28 AM   #43
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I agree fully with principle of "fix it at the source". In best case a track has no corrective effects at all.

Realistically though, sometimes compromise of "fixing in post" is required for sake of practicality and efficiency. Usually it's because the sound source is unpredictable and uncontrollable, hopefully in artistically positive way...

And of course, as already mentioned by others - using compression as creative effect is an art in itself. In that case, only rule indeed is "if it sounds good, it's good".


Regarding the multitude of compression plugins on the market, I've mostly ever needed about 5 different compressor plugins besides the basic ones in DAWs. Each for some specific property, like adjustable compression shape, multiband modularity or sonic character unique to that plugin's implementation.

For general utility, each DAW's internal compressors and limiters have been sufficient.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:30 AM   #44
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We are all results oriented and using whatever works is a good axiom. I'll have to experiment more with compressors because I have not to date had results that pleased me.

For example, I tried them on a variety of uneven sources like bass guitar and lead vocals to try to level them without losing the tone and I could never do it. I do like tri-leveler very much for levelling though.

I also never got success with gluing on the master. That gullfoss eq gives way more glue than any glue comp I ever used.

Thanks for keeping it real guys. I learn a lot here and that makes Reaper awesome! My adventure continues.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:03 AM   #45
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We are all results oriented and using whatever works is a good axiom. I'll have to experiment more with compressors because I have not to date had results that pleased me.

For example, I tried them on a variety of uneven sources like bass guitar and lead vocals to try to level them without losing the tone and I could never do it. I do like tri-leveler very much for levelling though.

I also never got success with gluing on the master. That gullfoss eq gives way more glue than any glue comp I ever used.

Thanks for keeping it real guys. I learn a lot here and that makes Reaper awesome! My adventure continues.
For levelling uneven bass guitar or vocals, automation is usually best - or at least do the broad strokes before adding a slow compressor, preferably with proportional ratio like an LA-2A or vari-mu style compressor/leveller.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:54 AM   #46
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I know W***s can be a dirty word around here, but the bass and vocal riders are pretty darn good.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:59 AM   #47
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I know W***s can be a dirty word around here, but the bass and vocal riders are pretty darn good.
I've never got on with Bass Rider, but Vocal Rider can be really handy.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:35 AM   #48
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What do you think a compressor is doing that your volume automation isn't?
It's flattening the waveform.


Also worth mentioning, in popular music there are hardly any dynamics. It's ALL LIKE THIS BAM BAM BAM. When music is played with proper feel and dynamics and arranged with the perfect mix of instrumentation and music arrangement, there is very little need for extreme dynamics control unless you want it as a special effect.

Last edited by Retro Audio Enthusiast; 10-10-2019 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:40 AM   #49
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It's flattering the waveform.
So is level automation. The only difference is the speed at which it is working.

Plus, as me and some others have said here, you can exaggerate the dynamic range as well as reduce the dynamic range with compression. It's all about the attack and release times.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:43 AM   #50
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Also worth mentioning, in popular music there are hardly any dynamics. It's ALL LIKE THIS BAM BAM BAM. When music is played with proper feel and dynamics and arranged with the perfect mix of instrumentation and music arrangement, there is very little need for extreme dynamics control.
I use compressors much more often to shape transient attack than I do for controlling dynamics in a levelling sense.

Compressors don't have to kill dynamics if you don't want them to.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:45 AM   #51
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Yeah, at some basic level compression and fader riding are roughly the same concept, but to claim that they are interchangeable and that the sound you get with either technique is equivalent sounds a bit nuts to me.

I'd love to hear someone recreate some classic compressed sounds with fader automation only.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:46 AM   #52
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So is level automation. The only difference is the speed at which it is working.
That's absolutely incorrect. Turning levels of volume down or up on a source with no compression involved will never flatten peaks. It will lower the peaks but not alter the natural transient shape. Not unless you are using extreme modification on a surgical level (microseconds editing) but we are talking about retaining the natural sound aren't we, specifically how we used to ride faders on a mixing desk.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:49 AM   #53
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I'd love to hear someone recreate some classic compressed sounds with fader automation only.
So do I.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:50 AM   #54
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Yeah, at some basic level compression and fader riding are roughly the same concept, but to claim that they are interchangeable and that the sound you get with either technique is equivalent sounds a bit nuts to me.

I'd love to hear someone recreate some classic compressed sounds with fader automation only.
I agree, but was explaining Lokasenna's reasoning.

At a technical level, both are riding gain. Compressors only attenuate, and they do it a lot faster, but the point still stands... technically. They were first used in broadcast to help out the guy riding faders.

I've yet to see someone that fast at riding faders to recreate an 1176 though.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:53 AM   #55
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That's absolutely incorrect. Turning levels of volume down or up on a source with no compression involved will never flatten peaks. It will lower the peaks but not alter the natural transient shape. Not unless you are using extreme modification on a surgical level (microseconds editing) but we are talking about retaining the natural sound aren't we, specifically how we used to ride faders on a mixing desk.
Sure, you won't be doing 3 millisecond fader rides.

However, you might bring down the fader before a big floor tom hit or sustained bass guitar note and ride up the fader as it decays. It's all still reshaping the waveform. Everything reshapes the waveform, or you wouldn't hear a difference.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:57 AM   #56
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It's a quote from one of the worlds most successful mixers. Read the article in the op.
I read it many years ago.

He's been involved in a few good sounding albums. Had nothing at all to do with 99.9999% of the world's great music though so wouldn't exactly live my life by anything he says.

I fear you've taken a soundbite to heart.

As has been pointed out, it's not even true of his own mixes.

Unless you're recording classical or jazz then the idea of keeping the natural dynamics of instruments is completely arbitrary. I wonder if you think using a compressor will "reduce" something that is objectively good to have more of. In reality, a compressor won't even necessarily reduce the dynamic range, it can just change it or even increase it. Not that reducing it is objectively the wrong decision.

Alan Parsons used to be quoted a lot for saying he doesn't compress and people would take it the wrong way. His situation is very different because he sends his material to a mastering engineer who will compress it. People at home doing a one-man operation generally aren't.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:58 AM   #57
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I've yet to see someone that fast at riding faders to recreate an 1176 though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumphil View Post

I'd love to hear someone recreate some classic compressed sounds with fader automation only.
I agree, but that's when compressors are used as a special effect for the distinctive sound and colouring, not purely as level control. Artificial level control has a sound all of its own.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:58 AM   #58
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And real guitars are for old people!

https://southpark.cc.com/clips/pa80cd/guitar-hero

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Love that episode!

"He can play Guitar Hero acoustically *click click click click*"
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:28 AM   #59
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I read it many years ago.

He's been involved in a few good sounding albums. Had nothing at all to do with 99.9999% of the world's great music though so wouldn't exactly live my life by anything he says.

I fear you've taken a soundbite to heart.
I have not taken a soundbite to heart. I have simply listened to music everyday for over 45 years and to my ears, "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" are two of the best sounding albums ever. I also put up the Mutt Lang produced Shania Twain albums, The Corrs (In Blue) and AC/DC.

The sound on the Bruce Swedien / Michael Jackson albums has bass, highs and dynamics unmatched on other albums to my ears. So it's not the interview that has me so interested but the end result albums. They sound better than anything else I have ever heard.

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Old 10-10-2019, 06:31 AM   #60
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Love that episode!

"He can play Guitar Hero acoustically *click click click click*"
Freaking hilarious and a really sad commentary. Now I feel old.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:41 AM   #61
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Freaking hilarious and a really sad commentary. Now I feel old.
Did you note that they were in fact not using any compressors, but instead using plastic guitars with flip paddles and colored buttons!
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:06 AM   #62
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I have not taken a soundbite to heart. I have simply listened to music everyday for over 45 years and to my ears, "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" are two of the best sounding albums ever. I also put up the Mutt Lang produced Shania Twain albums, The Corrs (In Blue) and AC/DC.

The sound on the Bruce Swedien / Michael Jackson albums has bass, highs and dynamics unmatched on other albums to my ears. So it's not the interview that has me so interested but the end result albums. They sound better than anything else I have ever heard.
I suppose if you really do prefer the sound of his albums to all others then it would make sense to go for his methods.

What about the fact that it's been pointed out he does indeed compress though?

For me some things sounds as bad with no compression as they do with too much compression. Modern mainstream pop vocals are too compressed for my taste but a voice without compression rarely sounds good either to me.

Bass is definitely one that sounds much better compressed though, on the Jacko stuff, I think it's synth bass so would already have the dynamic response of a bass guitar put through a compressor.

I do agree that Thriller is amazing btw, just not necessarily better than other albums that also sound great.

I'm glad that the battle has been won against those who compressed the whole mix just for loudness - that was when it was terrible; they knew it made it sound worse but took bullet in order to be loud.

I think a 2-bus/master compressor can sound great and a record can even sound good with none but I don't think removing compressing entirely, even from individual instruments, is a valid next goal.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:07 AM   #63
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They sound better than anything else I have ever heard.
Truth.

I also love the reply to Bruce's post where some bedroom producer with an SM58 and a Focusrite thinks he knows better.
The internet is full of amateurs with opinions that think they know better than world-class pros.

Glad this sort of thing doesn't go on here.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:07 AM   #64
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Freaking hilarious and a really sad commentary. Now I feel old.
The one that was even more of a profound commentary on society and the one that really made me feel old is when Kyle's brother's generation doesn't want to play a computer game - they want to watch someone else on Youtube play it.

Kids actually do want that now, it just blows my mind.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:08 AM   #65
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FWIW, I did a quick unscientific measurement of a few thriller tunes and they had that same 12-14 dB or so of DR that everything else in that era had. The other thing is that what bruce mixed vs what chris mixed (Chris' earliest mixes go back to early 1980s too) can't really be judged until you hear both of them mixing the same tracks.

Personally, I think Bruce was being a little facetious and commenting on overuse since many think we just put compression on anything and everything - notice the date of the article which is right in line with people overdoing it in digital. I'll also point out that before many of us got into digital, we had maybe 1 or 2 or no compressors because they were hardware and cost lots of money and only got used where absolutely needed. I also remember needing compression became more obvious when I switched to digital because tape had some compression of it's own.

Lastly, being able to hear everything is another type of "sounds good". Meaning once the DR gets larger than 14 or 15 dB (guessing) then the listening experience in many less-than-perfect environments will be reduced so we can't only use how good something sounds compressed vs not compressed as our guide... context and where/how it will be digested matters too - everything is always a tradeoff.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:11 AM   #66
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The one that was even more of a profound commentary on society and the one that really made me feel old is when Kyle's brother's generation doesn't want to play a computer game - they want to watch someone else on Youtube play it.

Kids actually do want that now, it just blows my mind.
My kid comes over and plays those videos of someone else playing a video game, but then he'll turn around and dial up some complex jazz or progressive rock thing on youtube, grab one of my basses, and then play right along with it, so all hope is not lost.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:30 AM   #67
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FWIW, I did a quick unscientific measurement of a few thriller tunes and they had that same 12-14 dB or so of DR that everything else in that era had. The other thing is that what bruce mixed vs what chris mixed (Chris' earliest mixes go back to early 1980s too) can't really be judged until you hear both of them mixing the same tracks.
What was your source for these measurements? I’m sure there’s a big difference between the original CD edition and subsequent remasters. Even then, the original CD could have been made from an LP cutting master (a tape copy that was EQed and compressed for vinyl production).

I realize that it was an unscientific measurement. Just wanted to point out that it’s difficult to judge based on outside factors.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:35 AM   #68
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I suppose if you really do prefer the sound of his albums to all others then it would make sense to go for his methods.

What about the fact that it's been pointed out he does indeed compress though?
The only compression I have heard about is maybe some on a bass during tracking. I haven't heard of him using it on any tracks or master bus and most of the many interviews I have heard him on are pretty adamant that he very rarely uses them.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:38 AM   #69
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My kid comes over and plays those videos of someone else playing a video game, but then he'll turn around and dial up some complex jazz or progressive rock thing on youtube, grab one of my basses, and then play right along with it, so all hope is not lost.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:40 AM   #70
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It's also odd to me that so many compressors are really being used for saturation. When did those two decide that they made sense in the same plugin ?
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:03 AM   #71
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Did you try DMG TrackComp beta version with new modeled compressors?
No, I've got more than enough already. And maybe it makes me superficial or spoiled or whatever, but with the generally high quality and the sheer number of options available today the, the deciding factor for me is the UI design...I'm really not a fan of this dark, minimalist programmer-art style that's so trendy these days.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:21 AM   #72
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The only compression I have heard about is maybe some on a bass during tracking. I haven't heard of him using it on any tracks or master bus and most of the many interviews I have heard him on are pretty adamant that he very rarely uses them.
...apart from that article I posted where he said he used LA-2A's and 1176's on vocals.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:23 AM   #73
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No, I've got more than enough already. And maybe it makes me superficial or spoiled or whatever, but with the generally high quality and the sheer number of options available today the, the deciding factor for me is the UI design...I'm really not a fan of this dark, minimalist programmer-art style that's so trendy these days.
Ahhh...OK than ...
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:43 AM   #74
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It's flattening the waveform.
A compressor isn't doing anything that you couldn't do with a fader (limits of human speed aside).

If the transients are being flattened and you don't want them to be, then the compressor is set too fast or too aggressively. This isn't a problem with compression as a tool, it's a problem with either setting the knobs badly or using the wrong compressor.

Take a super-fast compressor and pull the ratio way down, to like 1.2 or something. Run a signal through and render the output. Have a look at the waveform. Is it flat? Probably not.

Take a really slow compressor and crank the ratio up to infinity. Is the transient flat? No.

Compressors are a tool, just like fader automation is a tool. I'd much rather let a compressor take care of the broad levelling so I don't have to and then automate some of the spikier bits myself as needed.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:56 AM   #75
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What was your source for these measurements? I’m sure there’s a big difference between the original CD edition and subsequent remasters. Even then, the original CD could have been made from an LP cutting master (a tape copy that was EQed and compressed for vinyl production).

I realize that it was an unscientific measurement. Just wanted to point out that it’s difficult to judge based on outside factors.
YouTube using Orban loudness meter, then the below to confirm the original CD

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/li...album=thriller

Pop music isn't listenable in the conditions most pop music is listened in if the DR gets bigger than that which was my main point. Much of compression is about squeezing it into translating in imperfect environments.

Sure, plenty of other music has more DR but it ain't usually pop or classic rock etc.

** Just so we are all clear YT compression isn't dynamic compression. No one has said that, just leaving it here just in case.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:01 AM   #76
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It's also odd to me that so many compressors are really being used for saturation. When did those two decide that they made sense in the same plugin ?
Tape is also saturation, and transformers and about every other thing in analog chains to some extent. Once you get a perfectly non saturated mix, it's probably going to suck.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:03 AM   #77
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Tape is also saturation, and transformers and about every other thing in analog chains to some extent. Once you get a perfectly non saturated mix, it's probably going to suck.
I get that. It's just odd to me that the original compressors didn't have a saturation knob and it became so much a part of them.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:05 AM   #78
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A compressor isn't doing anything that you couldn't do with a fader (limits of human speed aside).
Once it flattens, I'd call it a limiter. I'll make the same point I made in some other thread months back...

How come words like compression and limiting seem to mean "every second of the audio" to everyone discussing, though when used properly, they often only act once in awhile and a very small amount? I could create a mix with compression and limiting all over it and you'd not know it, because all those tools have KNOBS.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:08 AM   #79
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I get that. It's just odd to me that the original compressors didn't have a saturation knob and it became so much a part of them.
My point was saturation was already everywhere then so there would likely be little need... There is far more need in digital since there is none there and our ears like softer edges... then again I accept your bet and raise you 1 Distressor.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:14 AM   #80
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Once it flattens, I'd call it a limiter. I'll make the same point I made in some other thread months back...

How come words like compression and limiting seem to mean "every second of the audio" to everyone discussing, though when used properly, they often only act once in awhile and a very small amount? I could create a mix with compression and limiting all over it and you'd not know it, because all those tools have KNOBS.
Spot on. For limiting, especially on drums I like to put a drum track up until I'm getting a peak light every now and then from the loudest bits. Then I'll slap a brickwall limiter on it just to tame those few peaks.

As for compression, I use it more to accentuate transients using slow attack times than to squash things, although there have been instances where I've done stuff like triple or quadruple compress a part or vocal with the idea that each iteration is only dusting off the very loudest peaks, and by using multiple instances, there is no pumping or loss of clarity.

Just last year I sold my last hardware compressor which was an FMR Audio RNC (Really Nice Compressor), which could act like a single stage compressor, or when you pressed it's "Super Nice" button, employed triple stage compression like I was referring to.
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