Concept sketch for the Reaper mixer

[zendar]

WhiteTie - yet again, truly beautiful work. I too am interested to know how long this took!

I think the most important aspect is HOW you have presented this to the forum - you have clearly stated from the outset that this is an OPTIONAL look, based on how the skinning function could be redesigned. This seems to have been missed by some people.

Whoever mentioned Winamp was spot on - the skin 'brain' was part of the app, but you DOWNLOADED THE SKINS SEPARATELY. If Reaper followed that I can't see why there would be 'bloat' objection.

As for feedback on this specific mixer design, I think it looks excellent and could see myself happily using it. I'm sure it isn't everyones exact taste but then again what app GUI fits that description 100%? If there was a skins section of the forum (there may well be already I havent looked!) then we could post feedback there and depending on your inclination you could refine it, that is, of course, if Justin thinks any or all of this is what he wants to do!

Justin?

[Art Evans]

you know a big reason for winamps success was, that it was skinable.

Winamp is a player for leisure use, not a mission-critical recording application for professional use.

If you want a comparison, consider the biggest name in audio recording software - Pro Tools. In my perhaps limited experience, the program that has the nearest general look & feel to the PT general style is - Reaper. So I personally don't see the need to switch from a highly successful appearance in the pro field to one which looks more like the downmarket competition.

Like I said, if it's an option and something functionally driven is provided as well (provided, not left to end users to have to spend time on sorting out for themselves), fine - and so long as it detracts not one iota from performance.

[scottdru]

Originally Posted by White Tie

The main point I want to make is 'this is what we could do if Reaper was this skinnable' rather than pushing this particular design.

+1 from me, and I'm quoting this to bring some focus back the point that this was WT's MAIN point was about what could be accomplished by making REAPER skinnable to that degree. I'm all for that, and I would like to see skins as separate downloads, because I like the idea that the core functionality of REAPER can be contained in a very small package, and run on 'outdated' computers.

While I'm a huge fan of WT's graphics and his sense of composition, and the above mixer graphic certainly does have a certain "sex appeal", I don't think I'd use that interface either. It isn't as intuitive (to me) as even the bog standard REAPER interfaces, it doesn't have numbers on the meters, etc., many of the buttons don't clearly tell you what they are for, and it's a busy looking interface, IMHO.

If it were the UI for a piece of hardware, reviewers would pan it because of the lack of clarity. When you are busily working trying to engineer a recording, you don't want to have to guess at things (like metering) or to have to take that extra few miliseconds to remember what that green button with no label does.

That said, I can also understand that in certain cases the numbers would probably get in the way of the composition of some of these designs. But, for me, those things are important. Probably even more so for me, because, on most of the stuff I do in my studio, I am not only the engineer, but also the drummer, and I have a LOT of things to juggle all at once -- so, the more straightforward the GUI is, the better it is for me.

IMHO, FWIW, my 2 cents, YMMV, etc. . . . all comments are intended only in the most constructive manner, and not as an attack or dismissal of WT's design, or the tastes of some who would prefer this particular GUI over some others for various reasons.

Using transparent .png files over Reaper's gradients, with the option of the Hue in their HSB values being an offset rather than absolute. I'd also propose an end to the use of .ico files, since we don't need the multiple resolutions and they're ...well... annoying! Here's how it could work - orange is the button bitmaps, which sit over the backgroung bitmap (yellow) which modify Reaper's gradients

Sounds like a great idea, WT!

I also want to say again that I appreciate your efforts with the graphics things, WT. I think it's good for the community to think about and discuss/debate stuff like this, especially having some people around who have strong professional graphics backgrounds.

Some cool stuff coming out of this, I think.

I'm all for REAPER having sexy, stylish look, as long as it doesn't sacrifice the things that are important to me, and so long as there remain options to customise the look, tailoring it to the needs of individual users.

[vocalnick]

First of all, kudos to WT on the hard work. Not many people would go to this much trouble "on spec", and it is truly beautiful work.

Regarding the "shiny melty plastic" aesthetic, I'm 110% in agreement with Art & Jason. That won't help me get my work done more efficiently, and while it does look very pretty at first glance, it certainly doesn't gel with my idea of an efficient UI (I'm talking efficiency in terms of aesthetics, rather than computing resources).That said, if it's skinnable, and something resembling the original look (or with the same degree of "no fuss readability") is provided, then I'm not going to humbug the whole deal. The Winamp comparison is apt, but by that token, I don't remember coming across many winamp skins that actually enhanced my experience with that program, beyond the initial "OMG IT LOOKS JUST LI3K iTUN3S!11!LOL" wow factor.

On the other hand...

The mixer enhancement mockups are a different story. I've always thought mappable controllers in the mixer would be a very useful addition, and I like the panning implementation here too (very Cubase). If mixer enhancements actually provide some visual feedback as to what's going on, then I'm all for them. The IO sends, MIDI controllers etc. are all excellent ideas that I'd love to see happen.

Just my $0.02 obviously, and I'm not trying to hold anyone else to my ideal... I can totally see why people would want the UI prettied up, but I'm not 100% convinced it's actually a decision based on getting work done in REAPER. At the end of the day it's a tool, and I believe it should be functional above all else.

If I want to look at something pretty, I'll switch off the PC and spend some time with my girlfriend

[gregh]

Thanks white tie - i think the point is well made - it would be great if reaper was this skinnable.

My preference is for a different, flatter more utilitarian look - el lissitzky done with potato prints

- however if reaper was as skinnable as white tie suggests then I'm sure some talented people (certainly not me!) would come up with skins that would suit pretty much everybody

freely skinnable would make a great differentiator for Version 2

[vocalnick]

A serious question:

Would a fully skinnable engine add any performance overhead versus REAPER's current approach?

No speculation please... actual knowledge requested :P

[Lawrence]

I find this thread really humorous and ironic.

That skin alone would probably quadruple Reaper's user base in a matter of days.

Hmmm... an extended mixer... well... why in the hell would anyone ever want one of those? Useless I say!

Damn pie hole...

White Tie: Fantastic work. Too bad it'll never get implemented. Too much change, bad...

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

White Tie: Fantastic work. Too bad it'll never get implemented. Too much change, bad...

I have now made my desicion. You are being completely and utterly ignorant and impatient.

do you even REALIZE how much reaper has changed?

stop trolling man, you seem like a really nice guy

[malcolmj]

Originally Posted by White Tie

Here I've incorporated a bunch of stuff that I've noticed in the FR forum for advances to the mixer, using my own judgement. The features aren't the point, its just about the pretty pictures...

Great work again White Tie. While the look you've come up with doesn't work for me (I don't like the sunken, dark bits) it does show really well what could be possible if the program was opened up for skinning.

Pretty pictures aside, your images do show a feature that would be a massive improvement in functionality for me - Send Level information in the Mixer.

I have recently been doing a fair bit of mixing in another app that displays Send Level information clearly in the Mixer, and it is a huge timesaver when compared to the current Reaper routing window. I look forward to the day this makes it into the Reaper Mixer.

Cheers,

Malcolm.

[pipelineaudio]

before anyone beats up on Art too much, I agree with him in many ways

so you can beat us BOTH up

However I have ZERO objection to make this skin system an OPTION

(mainly because everything I would want reaper to do, it already does, so I wont covet the coding time )

And White Tie's skin, like ALL his work looks awesome

[vocalnick]

White Tie: Fantastic work. Too bad it'll never get implemented. Too much change, bad...

That's an incredibly over-simplified (and incendiary) way to put it. There have been numerous genuine & well thought out responses here, all of which go well beyond "change = bad".

Those of us who have switched / are switching from more established DAW platforms have already clearly demonstrated we are comfortable with change by that very action. To dismiss people's constructive & articulate feedback as mere ludditism is frankly insulting.

Honestly, I can't see how your post is going to do anything other than incite arguments.

...and I here I go, taking the bait. Sigh...

[Jae.Thomas]

that seems to be his perogative lately. too bad, cause he's an intelligent guy.

[Amberience]

I agree that if it were done, it should be an option. I also think:

* keep some sort of "classic" mode in there... so that the current visual aspects of Reaper can be retained.

* Have a good stock of skins, dev made and user made

* It really has to have next to no impact on the audio features of Reaper. If we suddenly found ourselves not being able to playback old projects or go as far as we would normally in terms of CPU use, because of graphics, then we've got a problem.

[Tallisman]

Originally Posted by Henry-S

If total clarity is needed, then use the plain skin? Nobody is saying you couldn't have a plain skin?

[...]He has basically said that although the way the skinning works now, using icons, he feels that a different approach would make it easier for skinners and actually enable them to do some very nice design work.

The problem is that in Reaper, just like Winamp, some people want their Reaper Dark with Pink buttons and others want theirs to be White and Grey, nothing else. The fact is White Tie is suggesting a different approach to skinning the mixer and maybe actually giving Reaper a little more style.

Style and functionality go hand in hand. Your saying you want clean, then sure, imagine how good an interface could be created with White Ties graphics and a minamilists approach to buttons?

Are you seriously saying that if the mixer was done like White Tie did it, but he did it just in say White/Grey and buttons in say a nice blue with shine to them, you would not prefer that to just the standard mixer?

I personally think that if you adopted a "minamalist" approach to the skinning White Tie they would be incredible. I think that people are just put off because of the various different buttons being different colours. But then again, I don't like using any Reaper themes which have a Black background, just can't handle it for tracking/mixing.

The reason sometimes why reaper may not get taken as seriously as other DAWS is because, it doesn't look like them. What White Tie has produced is actually nicer looking than all of them and with careful tweaking, could see this being incredible!

here here!

*clapping

t.

[Art Evans]

I'm not totally averse to a more graphic look, together with added features - the Audition mixer (from Adobe, who should know about design) seems a good compromise, in general, between form and function.



And hey, beat up on me all you like! I realise I am being pretty blunt myself about my preferences.

[The dman]

Looks great

[trock]

it should not if done correctly

SAW is fuly skinnable and there were alot of them made, no impact at all on performance. they were all Bitmaps though so not sure how it would work with Reaper if it is different

just saying EVERY part of SAW was skinnable with no hit at all

none

[Amberience]

Originally Posted by trock

it should not if done correctly

SAW is fuly skinnable and there were alot of them made, no impact at all on performance. they were all Bitmaps though so not sure how it would work with Reaper if it is different

just saying EVERY part of SAW was skinnable with no hit at all

none

Cool, nice to know that.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

I have now made my desicion. You are completely and utterly ignorant and impatient.

do you even REALIZE how much reaper has changed?

stop trolling man, you seem like a really nice guy

Now I can't make a joke? Or show disappointment that such a great UI is not what Reaper really is?

Jason... what makes you think that I would ever allow you to call me IGNORANT in a public setting? What fucking planet do you live on? Your little smiley means squat in respect to that.

You probably still live with your parents ... how old are you 20? 25? What? Yeah, you know it all already right? Jesus.

I try to be nice to everyone here even in the middle of a debate about this or that. I've never called anyone here "ignorant". I'm not a troll... I've tried to contribute to this forum in many ways... some unsucessful. And you suddenly think you know me well enough to call me ignorant?

You don't know shit about me, only what I LET you know through my posts you little piss-ant fuck. I've never allowed anyone to talk to me that way in 48 years and I'm sure not gonna start now. Impatient is one thing, ignorant is another.

Go ask your parents for another $40 and go buy a clue you little wanna-be-engineer-grown-up probably sheltered suburban ass wipe.

You have no idea who I am or what I'm capable of. Yet you suddenly feel it's ok to call me "Ignorant" in a public setting? And the smiley is supposed to make it ok? What? You're Don Imus now?

FUCK OFF - You're way out of your league attacking me in that way. Trust me, you are. If you won't give me basic respect (even though we disagree) then I'll respond in kind.

Grow the fuck up.

FWIW: To all... I said it "won't ever be implemented" (the extended mixer) because MANY users have already said they don't want or need an extended mixer and they like the UI the way it is.

[jaydottcomm]

Damn Art! I feel your pain but you could had pointed out some good before you immediatly went into the bad....You gonna make White Tie not wanna do anymore graphics. You sound very unapreciative. White Tie might like the "Star Wars-like" GUI. You may prefer a minimal approach. Im pretty sure WT could creat a beautiful non-destracting GUI you would just love. Cool down buddy;I can read your Pissed off-ness.

[vocalnick]

Originally Posted by Amberience

I agree that if it were done, it should be an option. I also think:
It really has to have next to no impact on the audio features of Reaper. If we suddenly found ourselves not being able to playback old projects or go as far as we would normally in terms of CPU use, because of graphics, then we've got a problem.

Yep, hence my question before regarding the resource hit. I'm not up with that side of things, and if someone with the knowledge can say unequivocally that the resource overheads won't increase, then my reservations disappear.

I realise this isn't the issue it used to be, systems are fast, and dual/quad/octa-core yadda yadda, but this is exactly the premise that all the other developers seem to be running, and precisely why REAPER is so attractive to me.

If someone offered to chrome-plate your mixing desk in exchange for removing 8 channel strips you'd say no....



.... er, right?

[Art Evans]

I feel your pain but you could had pointed out some good before you immediatly went into the bad....You gonna make White Tie not wanna do anymore graphics. You sound very unapreciative.

I don't think I was unappreciative at all -

It's a fantastic piece of work and very well done, and a very handy reference point for ongoing discussion - but, imho, done completely wrong! Sorry.

Just disagreed with the design result, not the execution nor the usefulness of the trigger for this debate.

[vocalnick]

Holy moly, Lawrence, chill out. This was a perfectly reasonably pros vs cons conversation until you arrived in the thread and started throwing your weight around.

By the way, I'm 30, I live with my girlfriend (who I support financially while she's at law school), and I've made my living in media production for the last 12 years. And from your last tirade, I think you're acting like an ass. How old do I need to be before that's ok... did I make the cutoff point?

[trock]

i understand what you are saying art. i wold think to make it an option, IF it was no hit on perfomrance would and could enhance the experience for everyone. plain and simple for thos who like that

crazy and deep for those who are inspired that way

personally i like this graphic, and you like the PT look, reaper already covers so many bases for s many this could just be one more area i think

as LONG as there were NO perfromance hit on the program.

[Amberience]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

FWIW: To all... I said it "won't ever be implemented" (the extended mixer) because MANY users have already said they don't want or need an extended mixer and they like the UI the way it is.

Well in that case many users are bloody idiots. An extended mixer would be the bomb dot com!

[Tallisman]

Originally Posted by Art Evans

Winamp is a player for leisure use, not a mission-critical recording application for professional use.

If you want a comparison, consider the biggest name in audio recording software - Pro Tools. In my perhaps limited experience, the program that has the nearest general look & feel to the PT general style is - Reaper. So I personally don't see the need to switch from a highly successful appearance in the pro field to one which looks more like the downmarket competition.

Like I said, if it's an option and something functionally driven is provided as well (provided, not left to end users to have to spend time on sorting out for themselves), fine - and so long as it detracts not one iota from performance.

Pro Tools looks like ass. And, looking like ass has nothing to do with its success.

Looking beautiful has had an impact on the downmarket competition gaining in popularity -- that and a way better/deeper feature set.


t.

[jaydottcomm]

Lawrence is really Mike Tyson...shhhh dont tell nobody. Merril you better watch out buddy lol.

[Lawrence]

No, I'm a guy who doesn't allow people to attack me that way. Where I come from calling someone "ignorant" is a serious matter. There are many words in the language to use, that one I don't take from anyone. "Uniformed" maybe?

I obviously don't fit in here as I've never had these kind of serious issues in a "pro audio" forum. I apologize for "being an ass" as the previous poster said ... this forum is clearly not for me.

Try to hold beginning the celebration for at least 5 minutes after I exit the building. Nice talking to most of you. I wish you all the best of luck.

Even you Jason.

[Xenakios]

White Tie's concept looks great, don't know how practical it would be in the end...Mostly I'm drooling now for those fx-inserts and send controls on the mock-ups...

-X

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Now I can't make a joke? Or show disappointment that such a great UI is not what Reaper really is?

Jason... what makes you think that I would ever allow you to call me IGNORANT in a public setting? What fucking planet do you live on? Your little smiley means squat in respect to that.

You probably still live with your parents ... how old are you 20? 25? What? Yeah, you know it all already right? Jesus.

I try to be nice to everyone here even in the middle of a debate about this or that. I've never called anyone here "ignorant". I'm not a troll... I've tried to contribute to this forum in many ways... some unsucessful. And you suddenly think you know me well enough to call me ignorant?

You don't know shit about me, only what I LET you know through my posts you little piss-ant fuck. I've never allowed anyone to talk to me that way in 48 years and I'm sure not gonna start now. Impatient is one thing, ignorant is another.

Go ask your parents for another $40 and go buy a clue you little wanna-be-engineer-grown-up probably sheltered suburban ass wipe.

You have no idea who I am or what I'm capable of. Yet you suddenly feel it's ok to call me "Ignorant" in a public setting? And the smiley is supposed to make it ok? What? You're Don Imus now?

FUCK OFF - You're way out of your league attacking me in that way. Trust me, you are. If you won't give me basic respect (even though we disagree) then I'll respond in kind.

Grow the fuck up.

FWIW: To all... I said it "won't ever be implemented" (the extended mixer) because MANY users have already said they don't want or need an extended mixer and they like the UI the way it is.

hehe.

ok.

a little background on me.

Im 26, ive lived on my own since i was 16, and you are still quite ignorant.

I have lived in queens, which i assure you is not suburb, pennsylania, which is rural, and now northern new york, which is a wasteland.

you are ignorant for assuming ANYTHING "wont" get implemented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance

certainly, you are "ignorant" of the immense changes that have gone in on reaper, some of which i have had the privelege and opportunity to be one of the voices of change. And certainly you are "impatient", wanting to see everything implemented on your timetable.

i followed that up by saying you are a smart guy, and its a pity you have to resort to such obvious trolling to try and get your way.

People see through your bull all the time.

get over it

like i tried to say in a balanced way, you seem like a smart guy.

Stop trolling around. Your response to my last post furthers my point.

thank you and good night

The sky is the limit for reaper, as it always has been.









and btw, saying "it wont get implemented" is simply ignorant because

1. you arent the developer (perhaps you forgot this)

2. you dont see how far REAPER has come from v.666 or whenever it was first released as a free beta (about a year ago!!!)

3. I dont remember ANYONE saying they DIDNT want an extended mixer, at least in comparison to the hordes who said they did!

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by Amberience

Well in that case many users are bloody idiots. An extended mixer would be the bomb dot com!

dang straight mah brutha!

samplitudes mixer is a great example

[Jim Roseberry]

White Tie (funny - I had a friend in HighSchool with that nickname),

That's simply beautiful!
To those that don't want/need a console view, no biggie... just don't open/use it.
But for those that do want/use a console view (I do part of the time), this looks stunning. Better than any commecial console view I've seen. And... uh... I've seen them all. ;-)
Seriously, if Justin doesn't get you involved in graphics for Reaper; Cakewalk/Steinberg/etc should snatch you up.

I would never choose flash over function.
But who's to say that flash/function are mutually exclusive.
Why not have an app that's clear/concise... *and* striking in appearance!?!?


Jim Roseberry
www.studiocat.com
jim@studiocat.com

[keyman_sam]

Originally Posted by jaydottcomm

Lawrence is really Mike Tyson...shhhh dont tell nobody. Merril you better watch out buddy lol.

JBM has probably quietly unregistered from this forum, and currently signing up under a new name, lest he get caught by this guy....umm..i mean...sir. Sir, thats what I meant, sir. *hides in a corner*

[keyman_sam]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

dang straight mah brutha!

samplitudes mixer is a great example

Damn bro! You still here? And you type mighty fast too.

[Bevosss]

Wow, you don't see that too often here!

Anyway,

FWIW: To all... I said it "won't ever be implemented" (the extended mixer) because MANY users have already said they don't want or need an extended mixer and they like the UI the way it is.

Justin has already said we're getting fx and send/returns optionally on the mixer in V2 IIRC, I don't think anything's written in stone yet how far the options will go.

[ieso]

it'd be a damn shame if reaper didn't have at least the option to look that nice.

excellent work.

[Andywanders]

Cup of tea anyone..?

[Art Evans]

The spout on the teapot isn't long enough and I don't like the shape of the cup handle.

Note that the Audition mixer does 'expose' sends and FX and the EQ is built in - you click on the EQ button to get the graphic version, otherwise drag on the "hot text" to set without using the graphic.

I wonder whether they've patented the "hot text" thing?

Send and FX areas of the mixer are scrollable (so for instance you can see the 16 sends max you are allowed!)

[Jim Roseberry]

Originally Posted by Art Evans

I'm not totally averse to a more graphic look, together with added features - the Audition mixer (from Adobe, who should know about design) seems a good compromise, in general, between form and function.



And hey, beat up on me all you like! I realise I am being pretty blunt myself about my preferences.

Hi Art,
This is an aesthetic issue... so there is no right/wrong.
And I'm not here to, "beat up on you." ;-)
But... FWIW, to my eyes, the Audition console isn't very clear/concise. I'd actually descibe it as cluttered. At a quick glance, it's hard to discern much. Lots of gray with small controls/readings... with little contrast.
I much prefer Samp's mixer to Audition's...
However, I think WhiteTie's example tops them both.


Jim Roseberry
www.studiocat.com
jim@studiocat.com

[Fason Frian Ferrill]

"is the bad man gone yet? Im scurrred"