Old 06-10-2008, 04:06 PM   #1
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Default Easy I/O Window cleanup

Right now we have this:


There is quite a bit of noise and confusion here. It is difficult to locate elements here quickly. Therefore I propose to do this to the I/O window :



The lines(bevels) around the section titles Sends, Audio Hardware Outputs, MIDI Hardware Output and Receives are removed. The send names carry only the actual track numbers and names now, and they use the font of the TCP and MCP track labels. In this case Tahoma 12 Bold, which is my personal preference.

Quite a difference, and I hope it's easy to implement as well. What do you guys think ?
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:29 PM   #2
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darkening the background panes around each different section might also help
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:34 PM   #3
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.. but its much clearer,

and i love it.

+1
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:18 PM   #4
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I don't see much difference there honestly. I still think going vertical is the key. Just a (simple?) matter of rearranging and resizing the existing controls.



Lots of wasted space here aside from the other issues.



With scroll bars this kind of routing window wouldn't have to grow at all. Have it show 3 of each as a maximum and scroll anything beyond that maybe, in sets of 3.



It just seems that the "horizontal fader" design for the routing window was just ultimately not a very good idea. Rotate some stuff 90 degrees and it's a whole 'nother ball game.
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:53 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
With scroll bars this kind of routing window wouldn't have to grow at all. Have it show 3 of each as a maximum and scroll anything beyond that maybe, in sets of 3.

+1. Great idea Lawrence.

Cheers,

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Old 06-11-2008, 04:58 AM   #6
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Lawrence, you get my vote too. Excellent idea. Even with the fact i'm adding a lot more than 1 or 2 sends and receives. (Make the window resizable?)

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Old 06-11-2008, 05:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
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... with the fact i'm adding a lot more than 1 or 2 sends and receives. (Make the window resizable?)

Alex.

Yeah, the idea would be to have it behave much like the undocked mixer does now as a floating window, when it floats. The span of channels in the scrollable areas was just a guess, it could be 5-6-8-10 or more per section and the actual window itself could be much wider.

But it would never get any taller and it would have the ability to be docked and still be practical. Given the complexity of Reaper's routing and the sheer number of physical controls required, I'd also intentionally make those faders and some other things on it a little bit smaller in scale than they are in the MCP, especially the fader width and height.

That smaller scale would allow more adequate spacing to retain clarity while still presenting lots of controls on screen.

For example, that the "Add New" buttons in the mock are only that wide to fill up the available space there. There is room there for, say, a 'Show / Hide' button to hide the Send or Receive groups and only see one or the other or both. Another way to add clarity since you don't always use or need to see both.

3 Stage cycle/toggle? Hide Receives / Hide Sends / Show Both? Also the Audio/Midi lists on the left don't have to be anywhere near that wide if the labeling text is more concise. More room for a couple more channels in the mixer.

Bringing the channel's meter and basic controls to the routing screen as mocked up can also be useful.

Bottom line: Those routing windows are - in reality - mixers... and to have them going sideways is just plain unnatural, especially when they get really big. This is at the root (imho) of most people's ergonomic problems with them even if expressed in other ways.

Early on, the excitement over what you can do with them blocks that out. Later on it starts to bug you.

P.S. There really only needs to be *one routing mixer* that follows the current channel selection. When docked, selecting the TCP channel shows you the routing for that channel in the docker across the bottom width of the screen.

If it's docked, or had been docked at last view before being closed, selecting the I/O on a TCP channel brings that docker window forward, or loads it into the docker and brings it forward.
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:57 AM   #8
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When you said earlier in the thread make it vertical, I was thinking "I don't see how that would necessarily help."

After seeing the mockup, I see how it would help. +1, looks great.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:04 AM   #9
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Certainly at a glance that vertical display looks good.

I recall a great deal of discussion on this subject some time back, and I think some changes (to what we have now) were then made, but indeed it's not the most satisfactory element of the program none the less.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:16 AM   #10
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Certainly the better idea. Fine job.

+1

Here's a slight cleanup in a similar manner as the old idea of mine. Please never use JPEGs again for GUI mockups .



Anything that has no function should not have bevel boxes.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:02 AM   #11
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Great idea.

+1
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:20 AM   #12
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As much as I'd like to take the credit for some great idea in regards to this... and as much as I appreciate the kind responses to the mockup ... I really can't take credit for this one since ... well... uh ...

... all daw mixers kinda look that way don't they? It's not really a coincidence that they do.

It is, after all, at the end of the day, when the rubber meets the r... (well, you get the idea... ) ... just another mixer.

So I'll just say "thanks" before anyone realizes that I didn't really come up with any new idea here.

Uh... thanks?
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I don't see much difference there honestly. I still think going vertical is the key. Just a (simple?) matter of rearranging and resizing the existing controls.



Lots of wasted space here aside from the other issues.



With scroll bars this kind of routing window wouldn't have to grow at all. Have it show 3 of each as a maximum and scroll anything beyond that maybe, in sets of 3.



It just seems that the "horizontal fader" design for the routing window was just ultimately not a very good idea. Rotate some stuff 90 degrees and it's a whole 'nother ball game.
Fantastic!
Much cleaner.
++1
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Here's a slight cleanup in a similar manner as the old idea of mine. Please never use JPEGs again for GUI mockups .



Anything that has no function should not have bevel boxes.
Nice. That does make a difference in visible clarity on the left side.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:39 AM   #15
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++1 for this...it's a much better approach.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:17 PM   #16
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Very Good!

Except I want the Recieve Left of the Sends

Also I don't think the Hardware Sends Need a special button. If the Send Names, at the top, was actually a Drop Down List, the Hardware Outs could just be part of the Menu for destination.

The list could be

None
------
Track1
Track2
------
ASIO Out 1/2
ASIO Out 3/4
ASIO Out 1
ASIO Out 2
etc.


And I want the the Track Channel Text to be a button to popup an In Track routing Matrix
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Old 06-11-2008, 02:34 PM   #17
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+1 and ten characters
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:52 PM   #18
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Some additional ideas for cosmetics and the inevitable Trim automation modes. These trim mode switches can only be on for the Write, Latch and Touch modes. They'd have the same effect for the Write and Latch mode.



The Pre-FX/Post-FX/Post button could use some work. Also, the channel routing will inevitably someday be able to do more than two channels for 5.1 mixing, so that'll need perhaps a little more space at a later time.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Some additional ideas for cosmetics and the inevitable Trim automation modes. These trim mode switches can only be on for the Write, Latch and Touch modes. They'd have the same effect for the Write and Latch mode.



The Pre-FX/Post-FX/Post button could use some work. Also, the channel routing will inevitably someday be able to do more than two channels for 5.1 mixing, so that'll need perhaps a little more space at a later time.
Hehe... very nice Mr. A.

One thing I do in VB a lot is use labels that trigger popup menus, with the menu sub-routine performing the function (or pointing to it) and the label just changing it's text to reflect what you selected in from the menu... status.

I works very well in situations like these since there would be no arrow there - just "1/2" or "9/10" for audio and "All" or 1-16 for midi.

To change the choice you just click the word to get the menulist, which is another benefit for workflow since it's a bigger target for the mouse than the tiny selection arrow in some cases.

So imagine in your graphic above just "1/2" there and nothing else except maybe a light divider line between the groups. Popup menus can be *very* nice design wise.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:48 PM   #20
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(Just edited it again slightly. Trim buttons are gone for tracks that have an automation mode set to a mode that can't use it)

Yeah, the arrow seems unnecessary. I mainly modelled it from the buttons on the left, but this could work better if left out.

One arrow could sit in between the Input and Output routing to show the signal direction. I'll put it in right away.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:09 PM   #21
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Space efficiency?

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Old 06-11-2008, 07:13 PM   #22
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This iteration has your idea for the routing buttons implemented, plus using an arrow to indicate signal direction.

Also, peak indicators, level indicators and slighty expansion of the height of the send control have been done to accomodate the additional level indicator of the send.

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Old 06-11-2008, 07:19 PM   #23
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Lawrence, you mean like this perhaps :



=edit=
Some additional cleanups for text and colour were done. The routing text is smaller and has a slightly lighter colour in the upper half.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:46 PM   #24
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That's all good stuff. Thanks. I wonder how Justin feels about this in general?

P.S. I'm not sure about the additional meters though with these being only sends and all, that might be too much since every meter will always be active (fed from the same source)? And if it's post (ch) fader metering they all will be indentical. If it's post (send) fader maybe but ... I think still too much for a send bus.

Even then they will always go up and down in perfect sync (even at different levels) which would be kinda weird... 10 faders (sends) all metering the same.

Brining the channel meter over pretty much handled the metering.

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Old 06-12-2008, 07:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Therefore I propose to do this to the I/O window :




I like this!! Very goood, Airon! +1!
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:47 AM   #26
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I like Airon's implementation.

I agree that combining horizontal and vertical faders in different parts of Reaper can be a little confusing. It probably depends on whether a particular user has more of a preference for using the faders in the main window, or the mixer.

From my point of view, being a major mixer user, I particularly like the idea of this because if the option to keep the send/return window open is selected it fits in nicely with the main mixer, eg. scrolling left to right and appearing with the same orientation. In fact, it could look exactly like the main mixer, but with the additional drop-down menus for audio and MIDI routing in the empty space on the right of the fader.
This would keep the whole thing within the concept of skin-ability, using all existing elements in existing skins.


IMO each tracks automation button should also appear in the main mixer, but that's another issue.



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Old 06-12-2008, 08:54 AM   #27
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L-Dawg! Nice! I am diggin' on that something fierce!

My only request is this:


I believe that any tweaking of this window needs to incorporate a drop-down menu for all
configured sends and receives, such that we can quickly re-assign a send/receive without
losing the configuration settings.



.t
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:12 AM   #28
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Good lord


I'll have a pint of whatever you guys are having.


+1
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:14 AM   #29
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This is really looking to be a lot more logical!!!!
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:17 AM   #30
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Oops! Plus one Plus One Plus One

+++1
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:29 AM   #31
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Great mockup, I'd go with Lawrence's version (and the additional tweaks by airon and Tallisman)

++1
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:16 AM   #32
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And with my, by now infamous and usual position on these things,
if we could navigate round this with keystrokes as well as the wretched rodent, it would be appreciated. (should this excellent idea come to fruition.)


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Old 06-12-2008, 11:44 AM   #33
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And there should be an MCU option to automaticly switch the controller focus to the sliders and buttons on the I/O dialog.

And a Tack in the corner to toggle whether it auto closes.
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:17 PM   #34
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Quote:
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And there should be an MCU option to automaticly switch the controller focus to the sliders and buttons on the I/O dialog.
Hmmm... never thought of that. Passing the routing mixer's functions to a control surface channel by channel, it's sends and receives. Good one.

+1

Quote:
And a Tack in the corner to toggle whether it auto closes.
+1

= +2?
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
I believe that any tweaking of this window needs to incorporate a drop-down menu for all configured sends and receives, such that we can quickly re-assign a send/receive without losing the configuration settings.



.t
Damn, that's a good idea. I'd like to see that in the current window scheme.
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:48 PM   #36
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Nice idea Tallisman.

Now where is WhiteTie to give it a bit of polish and consistent design ?

Xackley, this context switching of control surfaces would be very cool, and hopefully it won't stop there. Custom mixer setups could indeed be great for large scale mixes. Mixer Sets, like the screen sets ?

I also agree with Inthepipeline about having the automation controls on the MCP. Perhaps all these elements will some day be optionable to be displayed on the mixer strips.

And now, what about cloning sends in this window ? You'd clone one then change the destination (or source on the receives). CTRL+click on the label seems like a the best choice, because ALT+click deletes sends in the mixer and therefore should do so here as well, and SHIFT+click mutes a send and should do so here as well.

The I/O window should behave like the mixer window, and could thus also have the option to create multiple rows of mixer strips.

In all what we have here is a master section on the left(or right) and the mixer strips for the sends and receives. Any control surface controls whatever mixer is selected, be it an I/O window of a track, the mixer window or a future custom mixer window, which the existing MCP is a specialized version of.

Tracks, sends, receives, audio hardware outputs, midi hardware outputs, and later VCA faders(probably only on the MCP/custom mixer) are the elements Reaper could use to build mixing views.
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:35 AM   #37
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Go dogs, go!

Several good ideas here. I'm +1 for ANYTHING that will get rid of the needless visual clutter. - And there's plenty to get rid of.

Another possibility:

Any send, slider, or other routing tidbit that is at zero, or otherwise not being used, should grey-out. It would lie dormant, and would become colored only when tweaked & set to a "used" condition.

(I'd still MUCH rather have separate tracks, but I guess that's a tired old tune around here.)

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Old 06-27-2008, 04:19 AM   #38
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Ok, here's an update to this idea. Some cleanup and moved buttons. See what you think:

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Old 06-27-2008, 10:03 AM   #39
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i'll repeat my request to use the existing interface of the MCP for sends, recieves and hardware outs. We all know how it looks and works. Just open another mixer, or use the existing one with a different wiev. Imho the best solution...
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:13 AM   #40
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Airon,
The latest incarnation gets my vote.

Superb idea.


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