Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-20-2018, 04:45 PM   #1
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default Recorded midi ccs not playing back in track

I thought I was smart and I created a track with a synth that doesn't have easily available vibrato controls - I used the Melda Vibrato plugin on the track and set the trim to modulate the depth with one mod wheel and the speed with another. It works great! I can play the synth fine, everything works. It records the mod wheel data too; I can see it in the midi editor. But it doesn't play back when I play the track back - all I get is the vanilla notes.

Anybody have a clue what I'm doing wrong here? Normally when I record mod wheel data it plays things back fine, but I've never worked with modulating a plugin before.
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 05:59 PM   #2
ReaperMadness
Human being with feelings
 
ReaperMadness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Great Lakes, N. A.
Posts: 1,872
Default

Is the Melda on the output of the track? I.e., not being recorded?

Alternatively, I believe it needs to be first in the order FX on that track - before the synth.

Just a couple things to think about.
__________________


New Music: = Mourning Marrs =

Last edited by ReaperMadness; 07-20-2018 at 06:04 PM.
ReaperMadness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 06:21 PM   #3
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperMadness View Post
Is the Melda on the output of the track? I.e., not being recorded?

Alternatively, I believe it needs to be first in the order FX on that track - before the synth.

Just a couple things to think about.
The track has only two items in the FX: the synth (Kontak/Strezov Oracle), and the Melda vibrato, in that order. I'm not sure what you mean by "not being recorded", as normally the fx plugin doesn't "record" anything. It does receive the CC signals from the live keyboard, and they get recorded on the midi track, but when I play the track back, although the synth itself plays fine, the Melda doesn't respond to the CCs like it does when you record or just monitor playing.

I did try reversing their order but it didn't help. I don't think that would work anyway, because the Melda has to be after the synth for its vibrato to affect the synth signal, at least the way I understand the routing, anyway.

It would be great to get this worked out, because this way you can add vibrato to *anything* and control it with a mod wheel.
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 06:27 PM   #4
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Yeah, I think you're using an audio FX and adjusting the audio envelopes for that FX. If you can hear the vibrato
working while your recording, then figure out how to record the depth and speed envelopes of the vibrato. I haven't
done that before but I'm sure it can be done.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 06:32 PM   #5
ReaperMadness
Human being with feelings
 
ReaperMadness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Great Lakes, N. A.
Posts: 1,872
Default

Record the output (audio) of the synth and vibrato, rather than the input (midi)?
__________________


New Music: = Mourning Marrs =

Last edited by ReaperMadness; 07-20-2018 at 06:41 PM.
ReaperMadness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 07:20 PM   #6
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Yeah, I think you're using an audio FX and adjusting the audio envelopes for that FX. If you can hear the vibrato
working while your recording, then figure out how to record the depth and speed envelopes of the vibrato. I haven't
done that before but I'm sure it can be done.
I guess that's what I'm trying to do. I'm baffled why it works live but not on playback!
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 07:21 PM   #7
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperMadness View Post
Record the output (audio) of the synth and vibrato, rather than the input (midi)?
I'm a crappy keyboard player; I want to edit it. :-)
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 07:34 AM   #8
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

I got a sort of kludgy workaround, though far from ideal. I used the trim and set it to Write, then played the mod wheel along with the prerecorded synth. That was recorded, but unlike the regular mod wheel signal, when I play it back in Read mode, it affects the synth, so I get vibrato that follows the mod wheel. But it's comparatively difficult to edit, unlike the data in the midi editor's mod wheel lane.

I KNOW Reaper can do this, and I just don't have it set right somewhere. If I could just get this to work with the plugin the way you'd expect that would mean you could add user-controlled vibrato to ANYTHING easily - a lot easier than the way I am doing it right now. But at least this works well enough to get me by.

Last edited by Tyrannocaster; 07-21-2018 at 08:31 AM.
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 08:13 AM   #9
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

When you say "to modulate the depth with one mod wheel and the speed with another" you have two mod-wheels? What messages do they send (look in the MIDI Editor)?

Anyway, from what you have said, the MIDI CC is being recorded in the MIDI clips but is not being processed by the MVibrato. Just to check - how have you mapped the Modwheel messages to the plug-in controls? Using Reaper's "MIDI Link" or Melda's "MIDI Settings / Controllers"?

THe default for plug-in is to replace any MIDI input by their own MIDI output; so Kontakt is probably not passing on any MIDI messages. You can change that here (select "MIDI Output disabled") and ALL the mIDi (notes and CCs) will be passed on to MVibrato.

__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 08:44 AM   #10
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
When you say "to modulate the depth with one mod wheel and the speed with another" you have two mod-wheels? What messages do they send (look in the MIDI Editor)?

Anyway, from what you have said, the MIDI CC is being recorded in the MIDI clips but is not being processed by the MVibrato. Just to check - how have you mapped the Modwheel messages to the plug-in controls? Using Reaper's "MIDI Link" or Melda's "MIDI Settings / Controllers"?

THe default for plug-in is to replace any MIDI input by their own MIDI output; so Kontakt is probably not passing on any MIDI messages. You can change that here (select "MIDI Output disabled") and ALL the mIDi (notes and CCs) will be passed on to MVibrato.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, my external keyboard has two mod wheels besides the pitch wheel; by default, they send messages on CC 1 and 5. I have 5 set to control the speed of the vibrato and 1 set to control the depth.

The midi info is being processed by the Melda plugin, but not on playback - that's what I can;t figure out. If I arm the track but don't actually record, the vibrato responds perfectly to the mod wheel. If I record, while I'm recording, the vibrato responds perfectly to the mod wheel. It's when I play it back that the trouble starts - I get no modulation then.

To get the mod wheel data to the plugin I used the trim popup, selected the plugin's SPEED and DEPTH boxes, then taught the midi CC numbers to them. I hope that makes sense. Since it worked right away I thought everything was fine at first.

I can't seem to figure out how to get to that menu in your picture; where in the FX window does it come from? It doesn't seem to be in any of the items on the upper right of the FX window where the Param and 2/8 out and UI etc. are.

Thanks!
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 09:33 AM   #11
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

I do not know what you mean by the "trim pop-up". Got a screenshot?

To get the menu, right-click the [ 2/8 Out] button.

But I am confused, if it works on live playing then it should work on playback of the recorded MIDI clip.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 09:45 AM   #12
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
I do not know what you mean by the "trim pop-up". Got a screenshot?

To get the menu, right-click the [ 2/8 Out] button.

But I am confused, if it works on live playing then it should work on playback of the recorded MIDI clip.
I certainly agree with that last sentence!

Trim popup - I wasn't sure what to call that. I believe it's actually called Track Envelopes/Automation. To get there, you click on the trim carat in the track's main display (sorry - I don't know what the nomenclature is for all these parts), right next to the indicator that shows you the READ/WRITE/WHATEVER status. A window will pop up showing the effects you have on the track and all their adjustable parameters, as well as the check items for track volume, pan, etc. Kontakt shows you 10,000 of these, so skipping past all of that you get to the only other plugin on the track, MVibrato. There, you have a lot of choices too, but the very first two are the ones I need - Depth and Rate.

Ah, RIGHT click - I didn't think of that - I was just left clicking on everything in sight, LOL. Anyway, I set it to MIDI Output disabled, then bypassed all the automation I had put in earlier today and played the track back with the mod wheel stuff I did yesterday: no vibrato.

I do find some good ones, don't I? :-)
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 10:19 AM   #13
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

OK, that sheds some light on things. I call that the Automation window. if in doubt, post a pic.

Anyway, what you have done in "MIDI Learned" the MIDI CC#1 and CC#5 messages to those two plug-in parameters.

On live playing those MIDI CC messages from your controller are sent to the Automation feature in Reaper where they change the parameters, as you have seen. So far, so good. They are also sent to the track and can be recorded into a MIDI clip, as you have also seen.

On playback, nothing is coming from your controller so the Automation feature is not invoked and the 2 parameters do not change. The MIDI CC events in the MIDI clip do not go to the Automation, they only go to the plug-ins. The plug-ins are not set up to do anything with them so they are ignored.

-------------------------------------------------
That explains what is happening. Now, what to do about it?

You said that you prefer to edit the MIDI CC in the MIDI Editor rather than edit the Automation envelopes. So:
(a) remove the MIDI Learn mappings for those 2 parameters, open the Automation window, click [Learn] for each parameter then [Remove] in the pop-up window.
(b) now we have the recorded MIDI CC in the MIDI clip, doing nothing,
(c) you can map the CC events to the parameters in two ways

(c1) using Reaper's MIDI Link:
-- twiddle the plug-in control, click the [Param] button and select the CC #

-- repeat for the other parameter

(c2) using MeldaProductions' MIDI Settings
-- click the [MIDI] button, bottom-right corner of the plug-in
-- select the Controllers tab and click [Enable]
-- enable the first Depth parameter on the left
-- it is already assigned to the ModWheel CC#01
-- now, for the second parameter
-- double-click the second (disabled) Depth line on the right, select "Rate" and click [OK]
-- click the value in the Controller field and select #005

With this method you have more control over the target range - click the [?] in the Values panel bar for more info. You could change the Rate to range between 1 and 4 Hz, for example (something Reaper cannot do).

Good luck!
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...

Last edited by DarkStar; 07-22-2018 at 10:05 AM.
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 12:32 PM   #14
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

This is great stuff! I can't wait to try it out later today. Thanks so much; if this works it's going to be incredibly useful. The Oracle synth, for example, has most patches without assignable vibrato for some reason. But beyond that, you couls use it on audio events and play the vibrato in real time. As a guitar player, I really value that.

Cheers, and if you're ever down Pompey way (Portsmouth), I'll have my friend Mark buy you a pint.
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2018, 01:31 PM   #15
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default SUCCESS!

HA! Take that, you vibeless synth! It works!

I really want to thank you for putting in the time to explain that in a way I could understand it. Everything is working and it's so easy to edit the mod wheels' data in the midi editor instead of trying to edit automation points. The Melda plugin seems very fiddly and counter-intuitive in that the settings do not seem to follow the min and max I put in, but rather seem to be more determined by how I set the overall speed (for instance) in the plugin itself. It doesn't matter - I can work with it with little effort.

Thank you, thank you.

Now, if you could just solve my stuck notes problem, LOL.

Oh, and let's make it two pints.

Last edited by Tyrannocaster; 07-21-2018 at 01:38 PM.
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 08:17 AM   #16
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

Good Oh!

Exactly what settings do you want for the parameters in the Melda plug-in - I could create a preset that you could Copy and Paste in.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 09:44 AM   #17
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Good Oh!

Exactly what settings do you want for the parameters in the Melda plug-in - I could create a preset that you could Copy and Paste in.
I have got it working well enough for my purposes, thanks. Basically, what I find with this is that the speed is very fiddly and I kind of need to just tweak it each new time I invoke it. The range that you can set up is not reflected in what I get at all, but since my plugin doesn't look quite like yours, I assume I have an older one - I got these six or seven years ago.

None of that matters, as it is doing what I need. I looked through my plugin collection and was a little surprised to see that this and a really old Sony plugin are the only vibrato plugins I have. The Sony is really primitive and it doesn't work for this application, so I'm glad I at least have this one.

Thanks for you help; I really appreciate it - this was driving me nuts. I see now that my mistake was to try to get smart and use the automation instead of just triggering the plugin directly, but you have to admit, it's really confusing when it plays back fine live but not on playback, and yet the data is there visually. I think it's all sorted now, though.
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 09:45 AM   #18
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
Default

This means that controller is enabled for both input and control. If you'd really rather work with CCs on tracks even most of the time, I'd suggest you disable the "for control" part just to be safe. That "control path" is basically global to Reaper, and depending on any number of things, any knob button or key might trigger some action that has nothing to do with what you thought you were doing. At one point I had things screwed up badly enough that trying to pan Track 2 would also scrub the playhead. Not fun.

Normal input only goes to the track you point at it, and is recorded directly to the track. You can send it around, add plugins to manipulate the data, and edit like any other MIDI.

If/when you actually want to write an envelope, switch control back on for a while or use that MIDI to ReaControlPath plugin.
ashcat_lt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 10:02 AM   #19
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

MeldaProduction offers free lifetime updates so you should get the latest version (v12.04 at the moment) - I use the Excitonium style (modified by me from Titanium).

If you use the MIDI Settings in the plug-in, you can set the Rate range to, say 0.50 to 2.00 Hz, then your CC messages will only change it within that range. That's a big advantage.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 01:37 PM   #20
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
MeldaProduction offers free lifetime updates so you should get the latest version (v12.04 at the moment) - I use the Excitonium style (modified by me from Titanium).

If you use the MIDI Settings in the plug-in, you can set the Rate range to, say 0.50 to 2.00 Hz, then your CC messages will only change it within that range. That's a big advantage.
I tried upgrading something of theirs a while back and it was nightmarish, and I finally reinstalled the old ones, losing my presets in the process. I decided to leave well enough alone. But in my MVibrato plugin on this tune (I created a preset for this) I have set the rate range to 4.98 hz (it wouldn't let me type in "5.0" and 7.21 hz, as those are both out of the normal range I would want. Yet, with the mod wheel I can easily exceed the maximum and minimum speeds, so obviously there is something else that has to be tweaked, or maybe it just doesn't work right. As you see, I have a lot of trouble with this stuff, so when I find something that works, I tend to stick with it.
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 03:04 PM   #21
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

Works here fine, with these settings (see Value and Max Value):

>>> (Animated gif) https://i.imgur.com/LQPRKH4.gif
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 03:52 PM   #22
Tyrannocaster
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Works here fine, with these settings (see Value and Max Value):

>>> (Animated gif) https://i.imgur.com/LQPRKH4.gif
What can I say - you're just special, and I am not. :-)

Seriously, I am used to this kind of thing. My stuff always works strangely. I'm a bit like Ron Weasley.
Tyrannocaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2018, 03:34 AM   #23
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
Default

You're welcome - and you've probably learned quite a lot from trying this out.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.