you've totally lost me...

[RHGraham]

Maybe I'm the only one but I'm totally baffled and frustrated with where this software has gone too. I got aboard early and loved it initially when the editing and menus were clear and simple, and intuitive. Maybe they still are for most and I'm just dumb... that wouldn't be a big stretch concerning myself and computers in any case.
But Reaper, for me, has become a bewildering array of menues and features that have to be looked at and tweaked in-depth to get it to work in a simple way, and many basic things have changed multiple times over the many versions and upgrades from the early 2.XX days.

I can't keep up, nor seem to get much simple recording and mixing done without being bogged down in menues, the manual, and trying to sort through commands and preferances. I just want to record live music with a mic and mix it, and do simple editing for noise and whatnot. I find it hard to use reaper that way anymore.

I learned a lot from folks here, thanks. But I need to move on to something simpler and get back to making music and not relearning the software with every other update.
Reaper is powerfull, fast, and extreme in it's capabilities, kudos to Justin and everyone involved. But I think you kinda forgot some of us on the journey. Maybe it just seems that way to me.

Anyway, peace out.

[nicholas]

Hey Randal,

I'd say if you're happy with version 2.xx then stick with it. No need to upgrade if you don't need the new features ...

[gwok]

make sure to post us when you return -

[RHGraham]

Originally Posted by nicholas

Hey Randal,

I'd say if you're happy with version 2.xx then stick with it. No need to upgrade if you don't need the new features ...

I tried to downgrade actually, to 2.0. Ever tried doing that with projects that have been brought along through to 3.5?
Created even more work with all the stuff that didn't work, wasn't recognized, and was generally messed up. I honestly don't have the time to deal with it, it was easier to pull out the raw original material and start all over in another DAW software.

I meant no offence, just want to make that clear, but I am dissapointed and just wanted to get it off my chest. Hindsight being what it is, I should have stayed around 2.00 and not upgraded furthur. But being human I wanted the next bestest thing. I really did believe the direction of Reaper ( based on the marketing of the time btw) was going to be specifically aimed at recording live audio and mixing and editing that. It's not a bad thing it's gone more towards hardcore looping and minute editing, and also hard-core midi, it's also not bad that folks with a lot of skill can super-customize it and create killer workflow with thier own shortcusts and custom commands.... that's all cool.
( Although, I must say a lot of requests over the last year or a bit more seem to start out as "make this work like it did in Protools...", and I frankly don't get that)

But I still think there are a number of folks like myself who are simply overwhelmed by the amount of tweaking it takes just to get simple edits to work in an intuitive simple way. I don't want to create a bunch of keyboard shorts just to get a little bit of simple noise editing done, but it's getting to that point. I LIKED just dragging over a section and hitting delete and having the noise gone, and everything else staying where it was.
maybe it can still do that but I'm worn out trying to figure out how to set it up like that.

Like I said, maybe I'm just too dumb, and I can live with that.
But this was all advertised early on, way back when, as being the fast and simple daw for recording audio, and it was. Just doesn't seem that way anymore.

Anyway, just wanted to relate my feelings about it before I checked out... I'm not a basher or detractor, just bummed It's gone over my head, and felt I should get it off my chest here instead of going off on other forums or whatever and being an ass. It's not like that. felt like I owed Justin the explanation I guess.

Later

[RHGraham]

Originally Posted by gwok

make sure to post us when you return -

I'm not sure I understand this comment, am I supposed to go away now?

[ThePriest]

Music production can't be too simple.... you don't want to read the manual? Maybe you type with 2 fingers.... don't use reaper.

Like I said, maybe I'm just too dumb, and I can live with that.

Exactly , dumb users can't use softwares , I don't understand why everyone has to use a computer, user friendly=useless.

[Tallisman]

I am sorry to see the types of responses your post has garnered.
I hope that you find what you are looking for in a DAW and that your creativity and music flow freely.

Should you decide to return, I'd be happy to help you with and troubles I can. Perhaps it is as simple as pruning your (recently) customizable menus.

I must admit it is hard to keep up with the quick pace of development here, but I am also addicted to it. But when life keeps me away for a spell, I do feel the weight of the learning curve upon my return. I can only imagine what that must be like for folks who don't spend a portion of everyday in the pre-release section!

any way I should echo Nicholas' thought... it would be just as easy to dump the raw audio into a fresh reaper 2.x project as any other daw... easier if you consider that you already know how to use the 2.x versions

best wishes
.t

[run, megalodon]

I, too, agree that Reaper could use some simplification and streamlining, perhaps just in the form of organization. I think that the popularity of Rea-menus is evidence enough that there are a lot of people who feel the same way. In order to avoid the standard dismissive replies I suppose I should mention that I don't have problems using it, I do love it, I don't think that any features are really superfluous, and I would be very weary about making any sacrifices in functionality to tip the balance more towards usability right now. But it is not as intuitive as it could be, and being as intuitive as possible is an important thing for a DAW or anything you use for creative purposes, and definitely right up there with feature set as something to shoot for. Anyway, I think we are in good hands with Cockos though, and we should see some streamlining in the future, so I'm happy for now to just sit back and wait for it to happen. Hopefully 4 will make some kind of difference. Maybe some fixes to the take system? Or some steps forward with custom tools?

[Mr. Data]

Really sorry that you're not happy anymore, Randal.

I must admit that I also can't cope up with all the features that Reaper has got since I heard of it. But then, I don't need them all. Who will ever? There are even functions I'm not really interested in, so I don't know about them.

With every new release I fear the moment, where things get changed that radically, that there is not much left of what it originally was and that I can't do anymore what or the way I'm doing it now.

There is also much criticism about all those menus. But now we can put all the things in we need and put the rest out. You could even make it more simple than the 2.xx versions if you don't need all the stuff that was already in there. Maybe it's only a matter of setting things up as simple as you need them and then don't care about all the bells and whistles anymore. Also it might be easier to set Reaper up like it was in earlier versions when you were happy with it, than to transfer your projects to another DAW.

Up to now I have the feeling, that, if I start a new version of Reaper, it's just the same as before, but with a few functions more, and I just throw out all the stuff I don't need. Also I don't install pre-releases, normally, unless they have a long awaited function that's important to me.

Anyway, hope you find the right DAW that suits your needs best. Everything else is useless.



-Data

[chrisharbin]

Originally Posted by Tallisman

I am sorry to see the types of responses your post has garnered.

+1

why so mean?

[pbk]

The most awesome thing about Reaper are its reconfiguration abilities. Perhaps you should spend some time learning how to adjust Reaper to your needs. It will be a time investment that will pay off very well when you settle to a workflow that you are comfortable with.

My $0.02.

[bullshark]

I'm probably using only 10% of all the features and function in reaper, if that, but I fail to see how that is a problem.

I mean, insert a track, arm it, choose input then click record... how simple does it need to be?

Sure, the menus did get a bit longer, making it so that we need to scroll a bit more before we get to the option we need, but is it really such a big deal?

[Tallisman]

Originally Posted by bullshark

but is it really such a big deal?

I think that for some folks, yes.
nice to see some kinder replies too. thanks fellas!

.t

[pbk]

Originally Posted by bullshark

I'm probably using only 10% of all the features and function in reaper, if that, but I fail to see how that is a problem.

I mean, insert a track, arm it, choose input then click record... how simple does it need to be?

Sure, the menus did get a bit longer, making it so that we need to scroll a bit more before we get to the option we need, but is it really such a big deal?

Exactly. If you customize menus, you can trim most of the unneeded fat off (no offense intended to your avatar ;-} )

[dub3000]

Originally Posted by Tallisman

I am sorry to see the types of responses your post has garnered.
I hope that you find what you are looking for in a DAW and that your creativity and music flow freely.

same, there's no need for people to be so aggressive on here.

reaper is a powerful tool but i can understand it being a bit much for some users, especially if you just want to use it like a tape machine.

[Simple Simon]

Originally Posted by ThePriest

user friendly=useless.

What an utterly senseless remark. As someone who has worked with computers for over 30 years, I would suggest that the opposite of your remark is true. Elegantly-designed computer applications (and other technology) are, ideally, so transparent as to be virtually invisible. Their purpose is to achieve, or help to achieve, a particular function in a way that might be slower, more difficult, or simply impossible without. Apple recognised this a long time ago and developed the original GUI as a result. It took years for Gates and co. to recognise the same thing but we finally ended up with various versions of the Windows OS as a result. I sure as hell don't miss command-line operations, and I am quite certain that productivity in all computer-based fields has improved hugely as a result of the more user-friendly graphical user interfaces.

I sympathise completely with the original post. As someone who uses Reaper (or any other DAW software) relatively infrequently these days, I want to be able to get the job done as quickly and simply as possible, and without spending more than half my time pawing through a manual (regardless, incidentally, of how well it is written). As much as love and appreciate Reaper and the ethos behind its development, I have found myself seriously considering going back to Nuendo, simply because I find it more intuitive and because there is always context-sensitive help available if I need to quickly look something up. Does this mean I'm "dumb"?

One thing I have wondered, and I might as well wonder it here, publicly, is how hard it would be for Nicolas to work with Justin and Co. to to his beautifully-written manual into something like an integrated HTML help facility. I am quite sure that this could make Reaper a great deal more accessible and effective for a lot of users besides myself.

Cheers

Simon

[Sumalc]

Originally Posted by Tallisman

I am sorry to see the types of responses your post has garnered.
I hope that you find what you are looking for in a DAW and that your creativity and music flow freely.
best wishes
.t

+1
please RHGraham give a try to : http://mikestopcontinues.com/the-rea...etter-menu-set
Much better organization for menus.

Regards

[EricM]

4+ reasons why Reaper is a drag for newcomers
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=45989

I'm all for changing a few things for new users,
so I suggest resurrecting that thread a bit with
reamenus and other suggestions.

e

[todd160]

I've been using reaper now for more than two years and i have to say that this is maybe the most powerful DAW i came across. I would consider myself a power user, using reaper at least once a day.
But i have to agree to the OP that there is a chance of reaper getting to cluttered with extra options. You really have to check the pre-release section at least weekly to stay informed. Not everyone has the time to do this.
I personally think that it would be time for a complete redesign of the menu structure in reaper to make things more unterstandable and also faster (for new and existing users). Just to make it work easier right out of the box.
Having a lot of preferences is really cool, but keep in mind : There are people that actually have to get work done fast. If there are tons of preferences which you could set wrong by accident your workflow gets interrupted quite easily. Also happens to me now and then , asking myself : Why is it doing this right now ? ...

Another thing to keep in mind : With all the coverage of reaper in tutorials and magazines (Sound on sound's monthly reaper section starting next month) this place will get alot more crowed the next months. which is actually cool, but on the other hand there will be tons of questions like " why this isn't working etc". i think right now would be a good time to at least make the menus more understandable and easier for new users.

just my 2 cents.. i continue to use reaper anyway

[vicenzajay]

Originally Posted by EricM

4+ reasons why Reaper is a drag for newcomers
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=45989

I'm all for changing a few things for new users,
so I suggest resurrecting that thread a bit with
reamenus and other suggestions.

e

But it's really not "new users" that are the point of this thread. Quite a few "old users" are becoming disenfranchized with the direction of development and the (often) bewildering sets of actions, etc. that, while useful to many, don't really cater to the "simple audio recorder/mixer" type of user. This was THE draw for many of us 3 or more years ago - a simple, powerful, small, and stable audio recording and mixing DAW with an accessible developer and responsive userbase. Given the original paradigm of Reaper, live audio recording was THE point of the program. It is, obviously, still an incredible audio recording/mixing program - but it is far from simple and uncluttered at this point...and it still seriously needs improvement (in my opinion - not trying to pick a fight) for take management and elegance of design now that it has taken on such a large body of tasks. If this is put in perspective, it is quite easy to understand the OP's sentiment and reasons for trying something else.

I completely sympathize with the OP. I have posted some of the same sentiments numerous times over the past two years - as it became apparent that Reaper was going to try to be everything for everyone. After watching the unbelievable pace of midi and video development lately, my decision to stay with Reaper to this point is (for me and me alone) really contingent on what happens over the next year or so with "audio" improvements (specifically, take management) and "elegant" GUI improvements (read response by Simple Simon above about computer program development).

Unfortunately, those that try to have a conversation along these lines often run into asinine replies like several of the ones at the beginning of the thread. I am very glad to see some very gracious individuals post as the first 2-3 responses were, simply, embarassing for this forum and this userbase.

Best wishes, RHGraham, on your DAW quest...and I hope you find the solution that enhances your own creativity. I hope I don't have to join you; however, it is a real possibility contingent on how things flow.

[nicholas]

Originally Posted by Tallisman

I am sorry to see the types of responses your post has garnered.

Well I hope it didn't appear otherwise, but my comment was quite serious and intended to be generally helpful, even though it turned out in the end not to be much help ...

[chrisharbin]

Originally Posted by nicholas

Well I hope it didn't appear otherwise, but my comment was quite serious and intended to be generally helpful, even though it turned out in the end not to be much help ...

I don't think your post was negative....and to add you've been way helpful for many many people!

[gwok]

Originally Posted by RHGraham

I'm not sure I understand this comment, am I supposed to go away now?

no, im just saying post us when your back - because you will be.................

[timlloyd]

Perhaps it would be useful for a lot of users who don't like/don't have time for all the customisations that are often needed if those of us who do like it could pitch in and make some "stripped down" menusets and macros?

Even though I enjoy tweaking and messing around with macros etc, I can completely understand why Reaper in it's state atm is getting off-putting for some.

Considering the great track-record of Cockos and how responsive they are to their users' needs, I think it's worth waiting to see what v4 brings before anyone moves on completely.

In the mean-time, I'm quite happy to try and help people out if there's any customisations that would be of use?

With that in mind, does anyone know if it's possible to save and load a "preference file" of some kind? The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of being able to load up a "live recording template" with stripped-down menus, macros and key-commands that are relevant and none that aren't etc.......then be able to load a different template with all my current macros for editing, mixing etc........so the two different mind-sets that are needed don't collide as much. Maybe make a FR to be able to do such a thing easily as part of the program; then there could be some of these template as part of stand. dist. so that features you don't need can essentially be removed.

[run, megalodon]

Originally Posted by timlloyd

With that in mind, does anyone know if it's possible to save and load a "preference file" of some kind? The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of being able to load up a "live recording template" with stripped-down menus, macros and key-commands that are relevant and none that aren't etc.......then be able to load a different template with all my current macros for editing, mixing etc........so the two different mind-sets that are needed don't collide as much. Maybe make a FR to be able to do such a thing easily as part of the program; then there could be some of these template as part of stand. dist. so that features you don't need can essentially be removed.

I really like this idea. It's come into my mind before since I record my friend's band and myself, and need to work in two completely different ways to do so.

[Geoff Waddington]

Ahhh yes....

The never ending quest for the perfect UI.

It's been my holy grail since I started programming in 1985 -- yup 25 years ago.

Although I can't articulate specifically how to get there for Reaper (wish I could), I can state some general principles, which all say basically the same things in subtley different ways.

1) When a user first encounters an app they should be gently led into this new world -- in other words don't overwhelm them.

2) Easy things should be easy and hard things should be hard -- sounds silly and trivial, but it is true in this way -- It should be easy to do something like record arming a track and it should be hard to reconfigure the CPU / thread affinity setting -- in other words there shouldn't be a shortcut key combo mapped to do some arcane operation that a noob trips by mistake and wonders what the hell happened.

3) It should be ultimately customizable but that shouldn't be a necessary first step.

4) It should be presented in such a way that users can work easily at a shallow depth or jump directly into the deep end.

To some it may appear that the above is just drivel and doesn't really say anything at all -- that is a real indication of how subtle all this stuff is.

It's been my experience that when an app gets to Reaper's current degree of flexibility and maturity it takes between 2 - 5 times as much resources to figure out how to present a new feature than it does to code and test it.

In other words, the devs would need about 6 - 15 GUI devs to keep up.
Other than the obvious increased monetary load, there are many other implications, like communication overhead, general increase in bureaucracy, etc. that are very undesirable.

We should all keep suggesting FR's for the app and the GUI, but we need to also be aware of the above constraints.

my .02c

[Simple Simon]

You make some good points, Geoff. That balance between depth/flexibility and introductory accessibility is the challenge of all technologies, and it does require resources above and beyond the merely technical to achieve.

In an environment such as this, I feel that suggestions such as this one of Tim's might help to bridge that gap:

Perhaps it would be useful for a lot of users who don't like/don't have time for all the customisations that are often needed if those of us who do like it could pitch in and make some 'stripped down' menusets and macros?

[Smurf]

Originally Posted by Simple Simon

You make some good points, Geoff. That balance between depth/flexibility and introductory accessibility is the challenge of all technologies, and it does require resources above and beyond the merely technical to achieve.

In an environment such as this, I feel that suggestions such as this one of Tim's might help to bridge that gap:

I agree with the above, but then I ask myself "What would you pattern it after?"

I really liked Cubase, I still like Kristal Audio Engine. Never felt comfortable with ProTools, Samplitude was strange but easy to figure out. Tracktion, Magix Music Studio, etc etc....I have used a lot, and they all did the same things a little differently (Right Click in this one, Shift-Right Click in that one...)

What would be the "basis" for the stripped down one? Because like it or not, it will be modeled after something that is already out there. Reaper might have the market in Flexibility, but it didn't invent the DAW.....

And no, not trying to start anything, just a serious question....

[Skamm Goodiez]

Not to diss the OP but sometimes I feel Reaper is not made for dumb ppl.

[habsi]

What I found overwhelming is the sheer amount of possibilities Reaper offers. It is not that you cannot do things easily, sometimes it is just hard to figure out where that option was you used in the last project.

Because Reaper is so easily adaptable there could be a few solutions to make it easier:

- of course a few cut down Menusets, maybe essentials for audio recording, midi, editing, with small demo projects and tutorials
- a search button for the help manual within reaper (I know, the wiki opens, but I like the manual better)
- use LICEcap for an html manual to explain more visually
...

Ok, there is much work to do, but I think it would be worth it. I do not think that there is so much missing, but it is hard to keep up with all the actions and features.

Threads like this one seem very valuable to me, because they always show up some good ideas. And why should'nt the best DAW get even better?

[matey]

maybe I dont really understand your complain, since reaper (so like many other software out there) does allow you to approach it in a very simple way, if just you want it.
that's why steinberg releases limited version of its sequencer for folks who dont need too much
just press rec to record and play to listen to your stuff, moving your faders up and down as you like it, applying some compression or reverb, without automations, just how you would do it with a tape machine.

what's the point to define reaper (or other software) too difficult or busy if you can easily get rid of any unuseful features simply ignoring them?

serious, I dont understand

[rohagymeg]

My 2 cents:
I agree with the op, but this is not a big problem. Yes, smaller, quality context menu should be instead of the one now. Like: copy -> selected items
Selected area of selected items
Loop of selected area of items

[Simple Simon]

Originally Posted by Smurf

I agree with the above, but then I ask myself "What would you pattern it after?"

That's a good question; I wish I had a ready answer.

Originally Posted by Skamm Goodiez

Not to diss the OP but sometimes I feel Reaper is not made for dumb ppl.

Ironic

Originally Posted by matey

what's the point to define reaper (or other software) too difficult or busy if you can easily get rid of any unuseful features simply ignoring them?

serious, I dont understand

Ask yourself this: how does someone get rid of unuseful features if they're not sure exactly what all those features are?

I'm not suggesting for a moment that Reaper should be "dumbed-down" in order to cater for a greater range of users; I just feel that it would help if there was greater structural consistency and a hierarchy of features and complexities that provided simplicity for more casual users as well as the depth already there for power-users. And hey, I KNOW this is a big ask; I already agreed with Geoff on this point, but I'd like to think that this is a direction the developers intend to pursue, if only because I would love to see Reaper used as widely as I believe it deserves.

Cheers

Simon

[timlloyd]

@ Matey, it's perfectly fine that you disagree with the OP, but it doesn't mean that other people should and/or will have the same opinion as you Removing access to unused features is simply one step better than having to ignore them.

@ Smurf, it doesn't need to be patterned like anything except itself, just a less complex self. If there are options/modes/features that someone will never use, then it makes sense to remove them from the menus; that doesn't have to involve attempting to base the menu structure on some existing software. For example, me and MIDI; I never use it so I've removed all the MIDI related stuff from the menus etc.......and as far as I'm concerned, for daily use it doesn't exist in my version of Reaper

We have the luxury to be working with an extremely efficient piece of software; it really makes no difference if an option/feature exists or not if you don't want to use it........if you remove access to it then it's gone.

I'm really new to the Reaper scene, but from what I've seen the dev team works excellently. We have loads of generous users who create custom themes that enhance our user experience, so lets just extend that concept to the rest of the UI and help out the people who struggle with the current clutter. This lets the devs concentrate on refining feature, efficiency, giving us so many of the features we request and all the other important stuff, while we can help the user-base ourselves by being a little more understanding and helpful with the UI side of the coin

[Unox]

My 2 cents:

I said this before in some earlier posts; I'm a silly composer. Well, sort off, anyway, I make my money with it and its the main reason for me to like or dislike a DAW.

a Musician, an artist, or whatevah you name a person like me, likes to have an engineer in the controlroom taking care of the nerdstuff while pounding out the next symphonic adventure. In other words, I hate beeing forced to do too much technical problemsolving while concentrating on composing. Its just a completely different concentration.

When I mix, no prob ofcourse, that's where Reaper shines. But I write in Cubase, it has all the features I need -freeze on a button, track delay in milliseconds on a fader, trackinspector with all plugins and sends, clear distinction between midi-, audio-, and auxtracks- and leaves me silly and braindead, the perfect state of mind for concentrating on creativity.

Reaper wakes me up from that mood just a tad too often, so I only use it for mastering bounced subs, since it can deal with cpu-heavy plugins like no other DAW.

I really would like to contribute to a 'musician-friendly' version of Reaper, without it beeing a totally dumbed-down version ofcourse.

I know that when I spend a week or two diving into Reaper I can mold it into my own likings, maybe I'll do that.

But this is IMHO the main reason Reaper hasn't become the musician's standard, and it should be, given its brilliant state of coding.

Simple tip: trackthemes. an Audiotrack should look different from a miditrack, a subtrack, or an FXtrack. Just a rightclickmenu that gives themingchoices (and hide/show some buttons, faders, meters etc) per track does this trick. In one eyecatch you can locate your Lexiconfader, your miditracks, your drumsubgroup, etc. (Coloring them totally red, green, lime and blue is also an option ofcourse, and a bit sore to look at.)

With the right themingergonomics and a hands-on grasp of all the basic functions Reaper can dominate like it should. Make it just as simple as the digital 'portastudios' that are still beeing sold, for the reasons mentioned above.

I worked for years in a musicstore, Roland and Yamaha sell those boxes because there's a real need. Not every band has a keyboardplayer to operate the computer.

[EvilDragon]

This post is one more reason to...


STREAMLINE REAPER'S MENUS AND INTERFACE FOR v4!!!


Make ReaMenus the default.
Make Reaper ABSOULTELY COMPLETELY skinnable (including envelope window, FX window, parameter modulation window, EVERYTHING!)
Consolidate keyboard modifier behavior.

In fact, make all elevated FRs come true :P

[timlloyd]

You can already theme a folder (aux return basically) track differently from normal tracks.

Just make a new image file (or modify the existing one) and then name it mcp_folderbg.#, mcp_folderbgsel.#, tcp_etc.........

To auto-colour a "midi" track you could set up a filter with SWS Auto-Color pretty easily.

These things are already possible for the most part, it's just that you have to do a bit of faffing to achieve them..........which is essentially the subject of the thread.

[timlloyd]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

This post is one more reason to...


STREAMLINE REAPER'S MENUS AND INTERFACE FOR v4!!!


Make ReaMenus the default.
Make Reaper ABSOULTELY COMPLETELY skinnable (including envelope window, FX window, parameter modulation window, EVERYTHING!)
Consolidate keyboard modifier behavior.

In fact, make all elevated FRs come true :P

I think this is fairly likely

[karl]

I'm reminded of all those Open Source fanboys (and this isn't an attack on Open Source - rather an attitude)...

"Hey, if the software you're using doesn't do what you want, just re-program it so it does! Simple!"

[musicbynumbers]

In reapers defence i came to reaper like many others here because of it's development model which is a fairly new (and in my eyes) much more constructive way of doing it.

That said I do think there should be some kind of presets that come with reaper that can change everything all at once to look and behave like certain other daws and a "tree based menus" option which is reamenus. It wouldn't take up much more space to do but will keep others happy. The only problem is keeping these menus and themes up to dave with new features which i guess is what makes it hard to put in. maybe just a option on first install to use simplified menus or original will do for now.