Old 02-28-2018, 12:36 AM   #1
mabian
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Default Tough - looking for collab

Hello, I would love to get some help and contributions to this new song of mine "Tough".

http://www.errepici.it/public/WIP/Tough/Tough_b2.mp3

EDIT: final version -> https://www.reverbnation.com/errepic...30346738-tough

What I am looking for mainly:

- Great vocals (I think I can do backing vocals, but my vocal soloist abilities are average to be kind)
- Suggestions on lyrics enhancements and correction
- Feedback, additional parts, whatever (please be constructive )
- Artwork for cover and video

The attached draft is in my opinion mostly done regarding instrumental stems, of course some work is due on vocals and harmonies, which are here primarily intended as melody and intention guides; tuning work was also left out waiting for decent performers.
While writing I was thinking of a voice print between Muse and RadioHead singers, which of course I'm currently unable to deliver by myself

Now for the lyrics:

It’s happening again
It bangs and hurts and every time is worse

Another turn of pain
Another instance of the same old curse

It’s tough and never ends soon enough
Comes out by revealing that bad bitter feeling

That leaves you hanging still
It’s rough it’s too much it’s overstuff

No matter how hard you set the safeguard

You’ll have to pay this bill...


Thank you in advance!

- Mario

Last edited by mabian; 12-30-2018 at 03:19 AM. Reason: Final version link
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Old 02-28-2018, 09:07 AM   #2
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It's got huge potential.

I think if done right your song can be right up there with songs from bands like Depeche Mode - which in this genre are simple awesome.

Kind of like this song:



I really do think you got a good framework there: I can hear something great in my inner ear's mind (if that makes sense?). lol

I'd be open to try singing, but only if you're not too much in a hurry - and more importantly open to changing some lyrics and vocal melodies.

Anyway, I'm sure others will offer to sing your song - if you're in a hurry.

Also, you can simply put up some stems and let people upload, do their things, and see what comes out: choose the version you like the most?
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Old 02-28-2018, 10:19 AM   #3
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Thank you.

I'm not in a terrible hurry, but I would much prefer not to keep it in the works for too long, just to avoid losing momentum and gettin into frustration for not releasing it.

I will surely post some stems, so that everybody interested can try doing something.
But I would like to know anyway about who's going to give it a spin.

No problem about discussing changes on lyrics and melody.

Do you have any idea on when you could/would try working on it (even just for those melody/lyrics enhancements)?

Thanks,
Mario
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Old 02-28-2018, 10:44 AM   #4
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Nice,

yes, agree, huge potential.

2nd verse: I see some vocal fx stuff here, making the vocal different, industrial.

Vocal: Yes, better vocals is better, but I see no voice-limitations for you to do this yourself. It's mostly about presence and daring to go there. You need be somewhat crazy to do this one right

I'm not a synth-guy so I can't guide you with that part.
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Old 02-28-2018, 12:43 PM   #5
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I'd give it a go as am recording myself atm and voice is reaching as good as it's going to get any time soon, this might be nice distraction from endless takes of the one or two am working on.

Do have some thoughts but no need for that to be in public realm really, but could lay something close to as written / performed and go from there.

link zapped

Is an Example where my voice is, plz ignore production & mix, is just one of my recent takes uploaded for me to evaluate.

performance is ok ( playing and singing and recording at same time which am a relative noob at)
some of the high parts are not so great but are improving as I go.
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Old 02-28-2018, 03:19 PM   #6
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G-Sun, thanks for the kind words, I will try to record some more takes with the intention indeed to "ride" the song, I think it will be useful to practice my singing even if I won't end up as the final "tough" performer.

BenK-msx, well I listened to your "demo" and ... where and when do we start?

Here is the instrumental - all vocals removed including backing ones, so you're free to "go" and explore at your leisure.

http://www.errepici.it/public/WIP/To...gh_b2_inst.zip

Your voice has a sound very similar to what I have in mind for this song.
I believe you could really bring it to a different level, I'm so curious to see what you'll come up with.

Let me know if you need something else and if (and how) you want to discuss and compare ideas.

- Mario
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Old 02-28-2018, 03:50 PM   #7
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Cool! Cheers.
tbf that took alot of takes and won't get much better but appreciate the approval,
Warming up studio now, taking while what with the weather and will take a look, but do want to get some other stuff done but definitely will investigate.

Where I do lack a bit is lyrics/quantity, am from the bluesy say one thing 3 times with variation school,
so will stick to what you have and any tweaks will be for flow or sound or 'pace' / rate of fire for example.

Will focus on vox, but as a born tweaker, will probably air thoughts on parts or anything that jumps out - totally ok to discount them naturally..

The track sounds v good, should be fun. Will notify.
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Old 02-28-2018, 03:57 PM   #8
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Perfect!

Enjoy

- Mario
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Old 02-28-2018, 04:01 PM   #9
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Ah, I forgot the chords...

It's mostly all around this sequence:

Em, B/Eb, C, Am, B4,B

- Mario
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Old 02-28-2018, 07:59 PM   #10
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link zapped

hm, you don't seem to have private msgs avail so I've slapped a link here.

initial run through, got into as I went along, tried a pace/rate increase later, could suit some extra lyrics - you'll prob also notice a little pad i tried as one section seemed bit too bare, (the vocals seemed to want a bit more around them - is another way to put it) though i know its an arrangement call so please forgive.

wanted to quick check first if initial trajectory was ok before went nuts with harmonies and experiments etc. also items and project all bit messy so I'd to need tidy before sharing.

tune sounds v good on my system by the way -
i do kind of expect some epic muse-like soaring electric guitars to kick off as it develops! - or is that too 'done'? anyway all good.
if you PM me can email rather than let everyone see behind the magic curtain!
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Old 02-28-2018, 10:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
Thank you.

I'm not in a terrible hurry, but I would much prefer not to keep it in the works for too long, just to avoid losing momentum and gettin into frustration for not releasing it.

I will surely post some stems, so that everybody interested can try doing something.
But I would like to know anyway about who's going to give it a spin.

No problem about discussing changes on lyrics and melody.

Do you have any idea on when you could/would try working on it (even just for those melody/lyrics enhancements)?

Thanks,
Mario
Best BenK-msx take care of this.

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Old 03-01-2018, 04:48 AM   #12
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Hi BenK-msx, will listen soon and report back.

I'm supposed to be able to receive PMs, doesn't it show by clicking on my profile name and then "contact info"?

(See attachment)

- Mario
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Old 03-04-2018, 02:18 AM   #13
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Updated lyrics - again any suggestion on errors, misuse etc. is welcome

It’s happening again
Emerging slowly every time is worse

Another turn of pain
Another instance of the same old curse

It’s tough and never ends soon enough
Comes out by unveiling that bad bitter feeling
That leaves you hanging still

It’s rough it’s simply become too much
While (And?) trying to escape your fingers just scrape
You’re stuck with this charming chill


- Mario
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
Updated lyrics - again any suggestion on errors, misuse etc. is welcome

It’s happening again
Emerging slowly every time is worse

Another turn of pain
Another instance of the same old curse

It’s tough and never ends soon enough
Comes out by unveiling that bad bitter feeling
That leaves you hanging still

It’s rough it’s simply become too much
While (And?) trying to escape your fingers just scrape
You’re stuck with this charming chill


- Mario

There's a curse that brings a pulsating/recurring pain that keeps growing bigger growing bigger - that you can't escape, but creates a 'charming chill'?


Ok. Sure. I get that people experience dark feelings and can even find it 'charming' (masochism or cathartic experience).

But what else?

I like to think of songs as storytelling. In that case your song has laid down the emotional setting - the context. Because it is rather dark and unnerving - we are expecting 'a crisis' and 'its resolve'. Or perhaps just the thesis/anti-thesis format.

In general storytelling falls in two category - a comedy or a tragedy. Currently your song appears to be a tragedy - but not a complete story.

I don't know man. There is nothing wrong with just paining an emotional state - without a story. I'm just saying - you have the opportunity to hook people in further by creating a crisis and resolving it (comedy) -or not (tragedy). The fun part in story writing is that you can make up anything you want. For example, in your song you can introduce the idea that the emotions being felt are due to some unfortunate event (death - society sucking - etc.) - and then you can invent a way the actor *that the listener ought to associate with* breaks free from the emotions to a better place - or goes in deep and kills him/herself (not a pretty ending -an extreme case).

I love song writing - you can make a short film in 3-5 minutes - and you get to make the music score to drive in the emotions !!!
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Old 03-04-2018, 02:37 PM   #15
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Well RDBOIS, I would say yours is a blunt comment, I appreciate it though maybe a bit too "aimed"

Anyway, I agree with many things you mentioned, but, in several songs of mine (and I'd say I'm not alone) I like to keep the end open and just paint some context.

I like to conceive the song as different things, on a per song basis: journey, a story, a picture, or even something else...

This song is specifically a kind of picture for me, where the concrete context of the story which is being told is actually left to the listener.

I understand it's not exactly what you would expect, but that's the way I like to write...

I would love to have some example of songs that are complete stories in your opinion, and I'm pretty sure I could reply with some other songs that aren't complete for me, even though are acknowledged universally as masterpieces.

A couple examples? Quickly out of my mind, "Woman in chains" by Tears for Fears, "True Colors" by Cindy Lauper. Would you tell they are resolved?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

- Mario
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Old 03-04-2018, 08:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
Well RDBOIS, I would say yours is a blunt comment, I appreciate it though maybe a bit too "aimed"

Anyway, I agree with many things you mentioned, but, in several songs of mine (and I'd say I'm not alone) I like to keep the end open and just paint some context.

I like to conceive the song as different things, on a per song basis: journey, a story, a picture, or even something else...

This song is specifically a kind of picture for me, where the concrete context of the story which is being told is actually left to the listener.

I understand it's not exactly what you would expect, but that's the way I like to write...

I would love to have some example of songs that are complete stories in your opinion, and I'm pretty sure I could reply with some other songs that aren't complete for me, even though are acknowledged universally as masterpieces.

A couple examples? Quickly out of my mind, "Woman in chains" by Tears for Fears, "True Colors" by Cindy Lauper. Would you tell they are resolved?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

- Mario
Perhaps I didn't clearly express myself: there is no right or wrong way to write a song. It's all good. Whatever floats your boat.

I was simply expression some ideas for the addition of lyrics. After all you said: "I would love to get some help and contributions to this new song of mine "Tough"" and also said "Suggestions on lyrics enhancements and correction".

Perhaps my suggestion was too "aimed"- if you say so - I was speaking from my perspective of things - only thing I can do at this point.

Woman in Chains engages us to relate to a plea to help right a wrong doing.

True Color is another plea - to find the best of ourselves - deep within - in times of darkness to rise above, shine and show our true colors.

So... In both cases there is an allusion to the Great Alchemical Act: transforming something from a lower state to a higher state of vibration - in these cases spiritual healing.

So... I was simply saying that in your song I see 'Act I', but feel a calling to see 'Act II': the alchemical transformation?

I don't know what kind of comment you were expecting? I was going to suggest your replace the "YouÂ’ll have to pay this bill", but you already did - and that was aesthetics only.

Anyway. Now you got me wondering why I even bothered to suggest something.
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:45 AM   #17
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I'm really sorry for that, but I'm afraid you're taking my reply a bit too seriously and personal - and maybe I did the same with your previous one.

I simply wasn't expecting such a high sight level suggestion (whole lyrics structure and form), indeed I was more into checking English mistakes, wrong expressions, better rhyming and so on.

But, as I already wrote, I truly appreciate your sharing, and I will surely consider your points for next songs; this one, unless there macro errors are found or there are some finer suggestion that better serve the song, is almost done lyric wise.

About the Alchemical transformation, I think that maybe this song follows much more closely the pattern?

https://www.reverbnation.com/errepic...ce=artistMusic

Thanks and please don't stop helping if you feel so!

- Mario
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Old 12-28-2018, 02:57 AM   #18
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Well, of course it took much longer than expected, but in the end... here "she" is

https://www.reverbnation.com/errepic...30346738-tough

Thank you again to Ben for contributing with his great vocals.

Now to what's next

- Mario
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Old 12-28-2018, 06:21 AM   #19
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That's a great, great song you've done there I reaaally dig the lyrics and the dark techno-ish music track

If you don't mind a constructive critic, I feel the vocals don't cut through the mix well enough at times.. Not the whole song, but at times...

I'd automate the vocals, and raise his voice when he sings too softly... And maybe tone back the reverb on his vox a tiny little bit, so he sounds a bit more dry and jumps out of the mix a bit more?

But then again, I'm a vocalist and totally biased, so take it with a grain of salt
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:41 AM   #20
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I really enjoyed reading all the comments in this thread - the creative 'back and forth' and I hope all participating will continue to be forthcoming with advice and opinions. I see no harm/foul but only differences in opinions - but I have no skin in the game

Also enjoyed the song

-W
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Old 12-28-2018, 10:54 AM   #21
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It's a great song. I like your voice. You can try to use the double tracking technique. I think it would help your voice a lot... you can use double tracking just for some parts.. For this kind of music I would recommend to play more with reverbs and delays.
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:26 AM   #22
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I like it! I love what you did with the reverb on the oohs. Agree with what was already said about maybe playing with the delay on some phrases or words. Cool tune!
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzirka View Post
It's a great song. I like your voice. You can try to use the double tracking technique. I think it would help your voice a lot... you can use double tracking just for some parts.. For this kind of music I would recommend to play more with reverbs and delays.
Double tracking can Rob a vocal of immediacy and intimacy so it's always a balance, I think how mabian uses harmonies and layers at just the right places is effective and not over the top.

One of the Hardest things to do is to NOT over use fx on a vocal.

Have yet to give a proper listen in studio as suddenly got stuffed up nose - so will write more later.

I enjoyed the process alot and was sort of refreshing to just deliver the lines as the artist wanted and not worry about 50 other variables for a change!
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Old 12-30-2018, 03:01 AM   #24
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Thank you all, I am sorry for the reaction I caused in RDBOIS, I just wanted to discuss openly but I guess the language barrier played a bad role...

Anyway, yes I could have played more with voice FX, but I was in risk of burn-out with the song, and I thought it reached a pretty good status already, more than I hoped for in the beginning, so I just let it out

I am a bit afraid to use FX because getting from "right" to "too much" is very easy and, as Ben said, I was looking for some intimate vibes.

For my sick perfectionism, I could have worked on it for months again, but it was pointless in my opinion.
This project ended out better than I hoped, and I thank again Ben for his help on it.

Now back in the studio for the next stuff

- Mario
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