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Old 03-20-2018, 03:02 PM   #81
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Lol Jason Lyon- i was into music from early childhood -like many here-- but what actually knocked me sideways was hiphop- seeing for the very 1st time >malcolm mclaren>> 'buffalo gals' - that absolutely blew my mind-total change in my whole structure musically.. used to sing before and play--but that hit me so hard i just had to go for it.
Music never saved my life-it gave me life! (+ many reasons to enjoy it) =)
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Old 03-20-2018, 03:02 PM   #82
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God, I'm old...
Ha ha, trust me Jason, if you weren't born in the 40s, your not old.

EDIT: I hope you don't think poking fun at you Jason, I'm not, I was just funnin' with you.

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Old 03-20-2018, 03:09 PM   #83
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Lol! @barrymk-bruv,did you not know lama is all the rage this year.. yak is sooo last decade..
I was leaning towards polar bear for the winter due to the high rate of thermal insulation afforded by its hollow follicular structure but summer will still be a problem.
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:55 AM   #84
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The song consists of nothing but one instance of Superior Drummer and one instance of Kontakt with 13 of the Factory Library sounds dialed up.

The song is titled "Nothing Real" because not one instrument on it is real.

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13706459
I just want to compliment you on a brilliant piece of fakery! It actually sounds real!

(And I have enjoyed this thread! Note to self - put that Boesendorfer Imperial, the Hammond, the Wurley, the MS20, the guitars and all the other stuff up for sale. MIDI from here on in! Not!)
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:47 AM   #85
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And the award for the silliest post goes to:

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Originally Posted by Time Waster View Post
The worst thing is fake fake instruments, like dexed.
Got something against free nostalgia?

In the 80s a DX7 would cost you hundreds of pounds. Now you can download a damn near perfect copy for nothing in seconds. Unlike analogue synths with physical filter controls a digital copy of an FM synth loses nothing in translation. It gains a great deal of functionality though.

Plenty of original synths around if you don't like copies of old hardware.
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:49 AM   #86
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And the award for the silliest post goes to:



Got something against free nostalgia?

In the 80s a DX7 would cost you hundreds of pounds. Now you can download a damn near perfect copy for nothing in seconds.

Plenty of original synths around if you don't like copies of old hardware.
I thought that was a joke?
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:52 AM   #87
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I thought that was a joke?
Maybe but I remember someone saying this quite seriously a while back. As if everything had to be new and designed to work with new 21st century controls. Efforts to recreate this old gear was holding back progress! (as if we all have to have the same goal).
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:55 AM   #88
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Maybe but I remember someone saying this quite seriously a while back. As if everything had to be new and designed to work with new 21st century controls. Efforts to recreate this old gear was holding back progress! (as if we all have to have the same goal).
Wow, that's silly.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:26 AM   #89
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I just want to compliment you on a brilliant piece of fakery! It actually sounds real!
Thanks. I specifically wanted to see how far I use the Factory Library that comes with Kontakt, so I thought writing a song using it almost exclusively would make more clear which sounds are the most believable so I could use them with real instruments on future projects.

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(And I have enjoyed this thread! Note to self - put that Boesendorfer Imperial, the Hammond, the Wurley, the MS20, the guitars and all the other stuff up for sale. MIDI from here on in! Not!)
My thoughts are that it is the person behind the creation of the music and not the tools they used that make the music. I would rather hear a brilliant composition done on cheezy sampled instruments than a tired and boring one all done with real instruments.

That said, I prefer to use real instruments unless I don't have access to them. I used sampled drums with Superior Drummer and a set of V-Drums for 15 or more years, but last year got a small Ludwig Breakbeats drum kit to play in my studio, and started using it for recording shortly after.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:27 AM   #90
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Wow, that's silly.
Yes indeed.

Anyone moaning about virtual instruments (ironically) isn't living in the real world.
Few can afford real instruments with the sound quality that they can enjoy in virtual examples. Less still can afford the sheer quantity of instruments that you can get comparatively for next to nothing.

Taking piano (as the first example in the thread) most of us that remember affordable upright pianos in the home know that they were nothing like as good as the models in Pianoteq or any top quality sample library (we haven't experienced top quality grands completely in tune in the home!). If we want a piano to have short bass strings, knackered hammers and have uneven tuning we can model that too. We can model putting them in a room with inappropriate inadequate acoustic properties too if they really want that.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:35 AM   #91
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Yes indeed.

Anyone moaning about virtual instruments (ironically) isn't living in the real world.
Few can afford real instruments with the sound quality that they can enjoy in virtual examples. Less still can afford the sheer quantity of instruments that you can get comparatively for next to nothing.

Taking piano (as the first example in the thread) most of us that remember affordable upright pianos in the home know that they were nothing like as good as the models in Pianoteq or any top quality sample library (we haven't experienced top quality grands completely in tune in the home!). If we want a piano to have short bass strings, knackered hammers and have uneven tuning we can model that too. We can model putting them in a room with inappropriate inadequate acoustic properties too if they really want that.
I have a pretty nice Acrosonic acoustic piano in my living room, and I have toyed with the idea of running XLR and stereo 1/4" through my attic from my studio so I could put mics on it, have a headphone feed for monitoring, and be able to record with it.

Running cable through the attic is a big enough project that I end up using sampled pianos, even though there is a real one only a few rooms away.

Also, I almost always end up using sampled upright piano in my songs, because they usually sit better in the mix and play nicer with the other instruments. Unless you are playing jazz trio or classical music, a full sounding grand piano likes to hog the sound stage IMO, so I like the hammers/strings/box sound for most music.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:39 AM   #92
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I have a pretty nice Acrosonic acoustic piano in my living room, and I have toyed with the idea of running XLR and stereo 1/4" through my attic from my studio so I could put mics on it, have a headphone feed for monitoring, and be able to record with it.

Running cable through the attic is a big enough project that I end up using sampled pianos, even though there is a real one only a few rooms away.
Yeah, convenience is a big part of it too.

At some stage maybe you'll be able to buy cheap wireless tech to do that without the hassle.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:42 AM   #93
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Taking piano (as the first example in the thread) most of us that remember affordable upright pianos in the home know that they were nothing like as good as the models in Pianoteq or any top quality sample library (we haven't experienced top quality grands completely in tune in the home!). If we want a piano to have short bass strings, knackered hammers and have uneven tuning we can model that too. We can model putting them in a room with inappropriate inadequate acoustic properties too if they really want that.
I dunno...

I'll always record a real piano if there's one around, and someone to play it. I love the character of cheap uprights actually, and often prefer the timbre over grands.

However, if I'm writing for piano then Pianoteq saves me all the hassle of setting up mic's... and learning to play the piano

There's something about recording real instruments that beats virtual ones. I guess part of that is just the satisfaction of doing it, but also the fact that no-one else can ever recreate the sound exactly. It's a unique slice of time recorded for posterity.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:47 AM   #94
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Yeah, convenience is a big part of it too.

At some stage maybe you'll be able to buy cheap wireless tech to do that without the hassle.
That would be cool. I could also just temporarily run cables on the floor to the other room, but setting that up, getting levels, and everything else required to get a great sound is still prohibitive for me.

My acoustic drum kit that I now use for recording is setup with mics already positioned, trimmed at the mixer, assigned to specific outputs, and ready to just turn stuff on and record. I would ultimately want some kind of permanent solution for the piano where I don't have to switch hats from composer to engineer, which for me blows the creativity element.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:49 AM   #95
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I would ultimately want some kind of permanent solution for the piano where I don't have to switch hats from composer to engineer, which for me blows the creativity element.
Hire an engineer!
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:51 AM   #96
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Hire an engineer!
Hehe, that would work, but they cost too much!
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:55 AM   #97
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Hehe, that would work, but they cost too much!
I hear they need the work these days...

The engineer/artiste headspace dichotomy is a perennial problem for DIY musicians.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:11 AM   #98
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I hear they need the work these days...

The engineer/artiste headspace dichotomy is a perennial problem for DIY musicians.
I guess if they would work for free, I might be persuaded to hire one.

One other issue though is that when I'm composing, any stop for any reason knocks me off the roll I was on, so I would still have a problem with the amount of time required to get levels, adjust EQ, and all the engineering stuff.

My current setup has an isolated guitar speaker cab with Sennheiser 421 ready to record in less than ten seconds. Same with bass guitar, only using modeling hardware for the amp, and now acoustic drums, mic'd up and ready to record in the blink of an eye. Immediacy from thought to recording is a huge item for me.

Back in my 1" reel-to-reel tape days, I can't count how many times I'd have a great idea, and by the time I was setup to record that idea, totally lost the groove of what I was originally planning on playing. I think of it as being akin to capturing lightning in a bottle.

You have to be able to do it while the lightning is present, coz if you have to go get a bottle, the lightning will be gone when you get back to capture it.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:14 AM   #99
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These are "alternate" instruments.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:11 AM   #100
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I dunno...

I'll always record a real piano if there's one around, and someone to play it. I love the character of cheap uprights actually, and often prefer the timbre over grands.

However, if I'm writing for piano then Pianoteq saves me all the hassle of setting up mic's... and learning to play the piano

There's something about recording real instruments that beats virtual ones. I guess part of that is just the satisfaction of doing it, but also the fact that no-one else can ever recreate the sound exactly. It's a unique slice of time recorded for posterity.
Sure, when you can.
The real instruments are preferable but that can only go so far on a budget and considering time constraints (reiterating the obvious).

For the guys creating orchestral mock ups that isn't even an option. Mock up tech is getting better and better but full orchestra is way behind virtual piano in terms of realism (which could fool plenty of listeners today).
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:15 AM   #101
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Sure, when you can.
The real instruments are preferable but that can only go so far on a budget and considering time constraints (reiterating the obvious).

For the guys creating orchestral mock ups that isn't even an option. Mock up tech is getting better and better but full orchestra is way behind virtual piano in terms of realism (which could fool plenty of listeners today).
Yeah, "mock up" being the operative word. Most of my music is fake, but it is all with the intention that one day it will be played by musicians (except for electronica stuff).
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:20 AM   #102
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in terms of realism (which could fool plenty of listeners today).
Maybe a little off topic from your intention... Unless something is way off, most listeners don't care or notice. I don't mean they don't care in an apathetic fashion but in a not for them to care or worry about to begin with fashion. It's just "us" who care which I support but at the same time I support it I also understand that's like 1% of the listening population and only that 1% will notice (though I don't leave them out if I can help it).

The project I just finished and posted in collab has a plethora of real and fake all over the place, and I'm 100% confident even the 1% ers won't know which is which 99% of the time. To be clear though, I care and I make the notes sound like I think they should but I go in knowing in vastly in the minority.

It's about the notes, from the beginning of time we've tried to find ways to "make notes" all this fake vs sounds like the original stuff can be a rabbit hole waste of time because it's about the notes.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:24 AM   #103
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Maybe a little off topic from your intention... Unless something is way off, most listeners don't care. I don't mean they don't care in an apathetic fashion but in a not for them to care or worry about to begin with fashion. It's just "us" who care which I support but at the same time I support it I also understand that's like 1% of the listening population and only that 1% will notice.

The project I just finished and posted in collab has a plethora of real and fake all over the place, and I'm 100% confident even the 1% ers won't know which is which 99% of the time. To be clear though, I care and I make the notes sound like I think they should but I go in knowing in vastly in the minority.
That's true, but I don't make music for anyone's benefit other than my own, so what I hear is the deciding factor.

If I was making music to a deadline and for profit, then I'd think about the audience.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:33 AM   #104
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That's true, but I don't make music for anyone's benefit other than my own, so what I hear is the deciding factor.

If I was making music to a deadline and for profit, then I'd think about the audience.
My point was I still try to serve the 1% which includes me regardless of the audience but... it's a little silly to have long-running discussion like this with the conflation that the audience is as passionate, they are not, they just want to hear something they like and the difference between pianoteq and a concert grand ain't it.

But I'll also say with confidence anyone who shares their music with others in any way, profit or otherwise has some desire to please them or we'd never even know they made music.

I just had this discussion with a long time musician friend and the point was, I put shit in (meticulously and painfully) that 99.9% of the people will never hear but I still put it there for the .1% who will because that was me coming up, the guy who took great interest in finding everything I could in what I was listening too.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:35 AM   #105
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My point was I still try to serve the 1% which includes me regardless of the audience but... it's a little silly to have long-running discussion like this with the conflation that the audience is as passionate, they are not, they just want to hear something they like and the difference between pianoteq and a concert grand ain't it.

But I'll also say with confidence anyone who shares their music with other has some desire to please them or we'd never even know they made music.

I just had this discussion with a long time musician friend and the point was, I put shit there 99.9% of the people will never hear but I still put it there for the .1% who will because that was me coming up, the guy who took great interest in finding everything I could in what I was listening too.
Yeah, I get it.

As for pleasing other people... a handful of people like what I do, but I find it almost as pleasing when people say it's too weird
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:43 AM   #106
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but I find it almost as pleasing when people say it's too weird
Yea, I'm a tiny bit twisted like that too. Someone told me the other day... "that intro makes me really uncomfortable and I don't like it."

Mission Accomplished. If you create something that pleases everyone you have just created the most boring music ever.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:54 AM   #107
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Yeah, I get it.

As for pleasing other people... a handful of people like what I do, but I find it almost as pleasing when people say it's too weird
I record my music to piss people off! <G>

Actually, I record it in hopes that other listeners will get the same vibes I had when creating it, much like how one tuning fork can set another in motion.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:03 AM   #108
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Yea, I'm a tiny bit twisted like that too. Someone told me the other day... "that intro makes me really uncomfortable and I don't like it."

Mission Accomplished. If you create something that pleases everyone you have just created the most boring music ever.
Yeah, any reaction is good. Indifference is what sucks.

I don't have the entertainer's impulse. Gigs don't do to me what most musicians say they do to them. One of my favourite gigs involved most people leaving the room but the handful of people who were left really loved it and felt they'd been party to something unique and special.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:04 AM   #109
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I record my music to piss people off! <G>

Actually, I record it in hopes that other listeners will get the same vibes I had when creating it, much like how one tuning fork can set another in motion.
Same here.

Capturing a vibe and passing it on is something special to me.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:12 AM   #110
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It's about the notes, from the beginning of time we've tried to find ways to "make notes" all this fake vs sounds like the original stuff can be a rabbit hole waste of time because it's about the notes.
Quite so. In that respect non of it is fake.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:20 AM   #111
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........

Mission Accomplished. If you create something that pleases everyone you have just created the most boring music ever.
For some reason I thought of this:
https://youtu.be/yZppa2Vq7UM?t=832
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:26 AM   #112
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I don't have the entertainer's impulse.
I don't think I have that either as I know people who do and that just isn't me. Albeit I do love gigs but I'm as happy with four people in the club as I would be 4000.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:28 AM   #113
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For some reason I thought of this:
https://youtu.be/yZppa2Vq7UM?t=832
LOL, there is little he says that I don't like.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:44 AM   #114
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I don't think I have that either as I know people who do and that just isn't me. Albeit I do love gigs but I'm as happy with four people in the club as I would be 4000.
Sometimes I like gigs, but it's more the shared experience through adversity with the band that I like, and not the audience reaction.

...though one gig I played at a pub full of middle-aged alcoholics and their kids was memorably fun. They all just danced like they didn't care (I guess because they didn't ).
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:01 PM   #115
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Ha ha, trust me Jason, if you weren't born in the 40s, your not old.

EDIT: I hope you don't think poking fun at you Jason, I'm not, I was just funnin' with you.
No offence taken, believe me.
I dunno, being in my 50s makes me feel like a dinosaur sometimes. I sometimes feel like the parental chaperone on a gig.
It's a completely different world to the one I grew up in... Glad I'm savvy enough to get modern tech though. What you can do on a modest laptop these days is staggering, and it's all too easy to take it for granted.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:03 PM   #116
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They all just danced like they didn't care (I guess because they didn't ).
Made a living doing that in my cover band days. I'm on a long hiatus from cover gigs, I seem to swap about every decade between original vs cover but it's really about what's going on at the time life wise.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:25 PM   #117
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Been watching this for a bit, and these two Spectrasonics videos came to mind.

Kinda interesting mix of great talent, fine 'real' musical instruments, and cool addition of 'midi'd piano to implement Trilian 'fake' bass library.

..... maybe catch at bit of each ... Duo #1 & #2

https://www.spectrasonics.net/video/...+Button=Search


Makes me fairly tolerant of real/fake transition over time ...

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Old 03-21-2018, 12:33 PM   #118
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Sure, when you can.
The real instruments are preferable but that can only go so far on a budget and considering time constraints (reiterating the obvious).

For the guys creating orchestral mock ups that isn't even an option. Mock up tech is getting better and better but full orchestra is way behind virtual piano in terms of realism (which could fool plenty of listeners today).
Speaking as someone who's written for orchestra and big band and mocked up for both, I'd say this is a very exciting time, tech wise.

I've played mocks for discerning musicians and of course they usually notice, but it's pretty damn good enough and doesn't get in the way of their enjoyment (or displeasure) at the music.

I'd say with orch work in general there are two related problems.

1) People tend to give instruments parts that they wouldn't idiomatically actually play. Or in some cases, physically couldn't actually play. Maybe that shouldn't make a difference sonically, but it does. Just doesn't smell right.

2) On a detail level, people don't understand the way the different instrumentalists naturally phrase and use dynamics. They craft away at the ccs like hell, but they lack the finessed understanding to make it sound right. Or at least rightish.

At the risk of sounding like a crusty old professor type, I'd say that modern sampling technology is good enough, but the first thing I'd suggest for someone wanting to make orch stuff sound more realistic is to immerse themselves in Rimsky, Berlioz, Adler, etc. Write some chorales, study sonata form, work on some counterpoint. So add Fux to the reading list. (Gradus ad Parnassum may seem like a farty old text, but it's surprisingly fun - a bit like being taught composition by Yoda.)

And study the sources. So many people are trying to produce stuff that's basically in the Wagner-Holst-Korngold-Williams-Zimmer-Newman vein. But they've never taken those scores apart to find out what really makes them tick.

Of course, if people just want to make music they like at whatever level they like, then fine. But fundamentally, the reason it won't sound quite right isn't so much a matter of the libraries they're using, or necessarily the expertise they apply to using them, as the material they're using them on.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:48 PM   #119
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At the risk of sounding like a crusty old professor type, I'd say that modern sampling technology is good enough, but the first thing I'd suggest for someone wanting to make orch stuff sound more realistic is to immerse themselves in Rimsky, Berlioz, Adler, etc. Write some chorales, study sonata form, work on some counterpoint. So add Fux to the reading list. (Gradus ad Parnassum may seem like a farty old text, but it's surprisingly fun - a bit like being taught composition by Yoda.)
Even more important to me is to speak to people who play the instrument you're writing for, watch them play and get a feel for how the instrument works.

Putting yourself in the shoes of the player is very important, too. Lots of people playing chords into their automatic divisi orchestral patches don't even realise that some poor sod in the orchestra is only playing three notes throughout the whole piece.

If you have people to write for it becomes even more fun, because you know their predilections, talents and limits you can push.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:07 PM   #120
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1) People tend to give instruments parts that they wouldn't idiomatically actually play. Or in some cases, physically couldn't actually play. Maybe that shouldn't make a difference sonically, but it does. Just doesn't smell right.
Reminds me of when someone programs 16ths on the hi-hat and they forget to remove it every time the snare is hit (because the drummer only has two arms).
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