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05-11-2011, 01:31 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 280
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REAPER MIDI Item tempo change
I am fairly new to midi in REAPER but I have one question. When I have a midi item that is e.g 4 bars and a quarter note for each bar and BPM is 120. If I then change the BPM to 80 the midi item will be disformed.. I would expect it to remain 4 bars but the playback to be slower. Assume there is a setting for this behaviour somwhere??
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05-11-2011, 04:36 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,717
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Right-click track and in the menu: 'Set track timebease' choose 'beats (position, length, rate).
This can also be set in project settings (alt-enter) as default for tracks.
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05-13-2011, 04:07 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 280
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Fantastic - many thanks for the advise. It would be great if you have a chance to very briefly explain the difference between the different timebases?? I searched through the user guide but there is no good explanation there.
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05-13-2011, 05:37 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keykeeper
Fantastic - many thanks for the advise. It would be great if you have a chance to very briefly explain the difference between the different timebases?? I searched through the user guide but there is no good explanation there.
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Time based will mean the item will not change position or length when you change tempo. (Needed for sound and dialogue in film, where later on you want to put music underneath of varying tempo)
Beat based will change jut the start of the item but keep the length the same (useful for musical sound effects or short audio samples like snares where you want them to stay locked to the tempo bit not stretch)
Beat with length based will tinestretch the item as you change tempo and keep start positioned locked to beats and bars (good for things like drum loops)
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05-13-2011, 06:26 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 19,677
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This, I hope, shows the differences.
-- I loaded the same 2-bar (4 second) loop onto 3 tracks
-- and set the timebase of each (Time, Beats (Position, Length, Rate) and Beats (Position only).
-- I inserted a Tempo Change to 150bpm, at bar 7, 12.000 seconds
-- and drag-copied the loops to that position.
Please have a look at the upper screenshot:
-- the first loop (Time) stays at the same duration (4 seconds) so it lasts for 2 and a half bars
-- the second loop (Beats (P, L, R) stays at 2 bars long and so its Rate has increased (time duration is less, at 3.6 seconds)
-- the third loop (Beats (Position only) stays at the same duration (4 seconds) so it lasts for 2 and a half bars
In the lower screenshot, I moved the tempo change to position 6.3.00 (11 seconds)
-- the first loop still starts at 12 seconds and plays for 4 seconds (that is 2 and a half bars)
-- the second loop now starts at 11.8 seconds (as that is now where bar 7 starts) and plays for 3.6 seconds (that is 2 bars)
-- the third loop also starts at 11.8 seconds (as that is now where bar 7 starts) and plays for 4 seconds (that is, two and a half bars).
[IMG]http://img801.**************/img801/9426/r376dstimebases01.th.png[/IMG]
Big pic: http://img801.**************/img801/9...imebases01.png
Uploaded with **************
HTH
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
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05-18-2011, 12:51 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 280
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Fantastic - Thank you so much for the very helpful reply! Sorry for the late feedback but I wanted to sit down and read the replies very thoroughly to really understand this. Thanks!!
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01-04-2013, 02:05 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 213
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I've got to say, I've had Reaper for a year now. I was so excited when I started using it and bought a license straight away. It has many things to it's credit, runs many different plug ins, quick to load up, rarely crashes,and it hasnt let me down in my live setup YET! But, much as I'm loathed to admit, for me, it ain't quite up to scratch as a recording/writing DAW, and I'm starting to wonder if it ever will be.
This example is one of them. The handling of MIDI is TOO fussy and fiddly too often.
I find myself working around issues all the time trying to keep in the 'flow' rather than find out whatever peculiar method I have to go through to get a simple thing to happen, like today, with the bloody tempo changes...argh come on it's BASIC! Why is it not default to snap to tempo, and THEN changeable?
I LOVE things configurable, but not like this. It's bonkers at times.
I don't recall ever having so much ARG moments with Cubase, Logic or Pro Tools, or any desk,setup I've used, and I've used a few as I'm getting on a bit in years.
Despite that, I'm sticking with it...as long as I can...cos I respect what it's about.... Rant over. Sorry...
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01-09-2014, 05:18 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 5
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Does this work for MIDI though?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
This, I hope, shows the differences.
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That explains things very nicely, but it didn't work for me MIDI item.
I notice that your items appear to be audio. Does the same hold for MIDI?
For the record, all three new MIDI copies get tempo-shifted to the new tempo.
Thanks,
John
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01-09-2014, 06:52 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bananenrepublik Deutschland
Posts: 307
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for midi it's a bit different
if you want it to stay at the same tempo while changing the bpm
you have to set each midi item to "ignore project tempo" under item properties
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01-09-2014, 09:28 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 5
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Solved my issue
Thanks. I managed to figure it out with the help of various threads in here and some head-scratching.
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01-09-2014, 03:01 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 7,239
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another thing... if you want MIDI items to not change with tempo changes and stay in a "Time" timebase, you would have to use the option inside the item source properties to "ignore tempo, use xxx BPM". Setting the track timebase to Time only is not enough. Why!?
I've never understood why is this... Why can't we just select the track where the midi items are and set the timebase to Time and that's all? Instead you have to go and set the ignore tempo thing for every item in the track.. there is a SWS action to do that for multiple items at the same time too and using the tempo at the start of the item but this is insane. Whay if there are already tempo changes and you want to convert a MIDI item to time base? How can you do it? I've never been able to do it. The only solution is to split the item in every tempo change and then set the items to ignore tempo and use the tempo at the split position and... nightmares...
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02-22-2014, 04:07 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda
another thing... if you want MIDI items to not change with tempo changes and stay in a "Time" timebase, you would have to use the option inside the item source properties to "ignore tempo, use xxx BPM". Setting the track timebase to Time only is not enough. Why!?
I've never understood why is this... Why can't we just select the track where the midi items are and set the timebase to Time and that's all? Instead you have to go and set the ignore tempo thing for every item in the track.. there is a SWS action to do that for multiple items at the same time too and using the tempo at the start of the item but this is insane. Whay if there are already tempo changes and you want to convert a MIDI item to time base? How can you do it? I've never been able to do it. The only solution is to split the item in every tempo change and then set the items to ignore tempo and use the tempo at the split position and... nightmares...
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I'm having the same headache right now... This is driving me crazy. I'm using MIDI files that were generated directly from reading the music sequences from old Nintendo game cartridges (Mega Man, in particular), and it has been a massive headache because the files have no logical tempo mapping built-in, which forces me to change them to Time-base and do it all by hand.
If anybody comes up with an easier way of doing this, I would be very interested in hearing some ideas!
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02-22-2014, 05:01 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 7,239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesleeve
If anybody comes up with an easier way of doing this, I would be very interested in hearing some ideas!
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The best way of doing tempo mapping in Reaper right now is using SWS!
http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.ph...pping_with_SWS
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02-22-2014, 05:54 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda
another thing... if you want MIDI items to not change with tempo changes and stay in a "Time" timebase, you would have to use the option inside the item source properties to "ignore tempo, use xxx BPM". Setting the track timebase to Time only is not enough. Why!?
I've never understood why is this... Why can't we just select the track where the midi items are and set the timebase to Time and that's all?
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I agree.
In my opinion the current implementation is wrong or misnamed at least (regarding MIDI items when timebase is "Time"), exactly because of the points you say.
open bug since 2011
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3412
Quote:
Whay if there are already tempo changes and you want to convert a MIDI item to time base? How can you do it? I've never been able to do it. The only solution is to split the item in every tempo change and then set the items to ignore tempo and use the tempo at the split position and... nightmares...
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I haven't tried it but maybe glueing first and then set the glued item to "ignore project tempo" would work ?
Last edited by nofish; 02-22-2014 at 06:06 PM.
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02-23-2014, 01:01 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 7,239
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Hi nofish.
I think the bug should be solved. And if it is not considered a bug and just a limitation, then there should be a warning or something to the user when you set a track to time and it detects midi items in that track. But I think it should fixed as it is an essential feature in my opinion. At least for those who work on midi and do tempo mapping after recording.
Breeder did a nice solution to paste items into an area without tempo changes and preserving time with a script http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=68 in the tempo mapping thread http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=118061
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02-12-2015, 12:06 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,451
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Bump!
This is something that, at least in the upcoming version 5, should be fixed!
It is a nightmare! Please Devs fix this!!..
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02-12-2015, 12:44 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 7,239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amagalma
Bump!
This is something that, at least in the upcoming version 5, should be fixed!
It is a nightmare! Please Devs fix this!!..
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Breeder did a great work and added the function to convert items to time preserving time position of MIDI. Check the latest SWS extension and look for the function "Enable ignore project tempo preserve time position of MIDI items" or something like that. I fin it even better than working per track. So you have more control over which items and when they preserve time. Very good.
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11-18-2016, 10:26 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adaragray
for midi it's a bit different
if you want it to stay at the same tempo while changing the bpm
you have to set each midi item to "ignore project tempo" under item properties
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You just made my life easier. Thanks!
This is a problem, I think. A very basic thing that is obscured behind menus and dialogues.
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11-18-2016, 10:54 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimbow
I've got to say, I've had Reaper for a year now. I was so excited when I started using it and bought a license straight away. It has many things to it's credit, runs many different plug ins, quick to load up, rarely crashes,and it hasnt let me down in my live setup YET! But, much as I'm loathed to admit, for me, it ain't quite up to scratch as a recording/writing DAW, and I'm starting to wonder if it ever will be.
This example is one of them. The handling of MIDI is TOO fussy and fiddly too often.
I find myself working around issues all the time trying to keep in the 'flow' rather than find out whatever peculiar method I have to go through to get a simple thing to happen, like today, with the bloody tempo changes...argh come on it's BASIC! Why is it not default to snap to tempo, and THEN changeable?
I LOVE things configurable, but not like this. It's bonkers at times.
I don't recall ever having so much ARG moments with Cubase, Logic or Pro Tools, or any desk,setup I've used, and I've used a few as I'm getting on a bit in years.
Despite that, I'm sticking with it...as long as I can...cos I respect what it's about.... Rant over. Sorry...
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Do what I did and still do from time to time.
Go back to the current version of whatever your "other" DAW was and see how you get on now you are used to many of the cool things in reaper. We tend to take for granted what we have gained and remember only the stuff we have "lost".
I was amazed by how much of what I now do without thinking in Reaper isn't possible in Sonar or Studio One. (my other two surviving DAWs.) when I recently went back to Sonar after about a year away from it.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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11-18-2016, 06:23 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordi
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaragray
for midi it's a bit different
if you want it to stay at the same tempo while changing the bpm
you have to set each midi item to "ignore project tempo" under item properties
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You just made my life easier. Thanks!
This is a problem, I think. A very basic thing that is obscured behind menus and dialogues.
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Much easier is to use the SWS action SWS/BR: Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items and preserve time position of events (use tempo at item's start). Unlike going to item properties to set Source properties -> Ignore project tempo, the SWS action works well on MIDI items that follow a variable tempo, and can be applied to multiple selected items simultaneously.
Warning:
* In older versions of REAPER, the SWS action often crashed when used on recorded MIDI, but the bug that caused the crashes was fixed in recent versions.
* Even so, the SWS action is very slow when applied to large projects - as are all scripts or extensions that make use of REAPER's own MIDI API. The higher the number of MIDI events, the slower they get.
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06-05-2017, 08:23 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 47
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Thanks helped out there post 21
I had a issue as posted in my thread that no one helped me with, that had to do with my midi notes not following the event when I "inserted empty space at time selection". I don't know why the advice from post 21 helped fix the issue though.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...40#post1852640
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05-10-2019, 02:24 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7,416
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Going crazy over this...
Resurrecting an old thread here, sorry, but this is driving me crazy...
I have a project with audio and MIDI items. The audio (multi-tracked drums, bass, guitar etc) was recorded not to a click. The MIDI items I programmed in Reaper to follow the audio (I put markers at each kick and snare hit, and put in the MIDI events in relation to that).
Now I want to change the BPM (currently at 120) of the project to get it closer to the actual BPM of the recorded audio (around 172). But whatever I try, something gets f***d up.
If I have the project time base set to Time, the audio behaves as expected, but the MIDI gets speeded up (by 172/120=1.4333) and moved to another position in the project And this happens whether I have set the source properties to "Ignore project tempo use 120 BPM 4/4", or not
If the project time base is set to Beat (position, length, rate) the audio as well as the MIDI gets speeded up. Not what I want.
If the project time base is set to Beat (position only), again the audio comes out fine, but the MIDI is speeded up.
is there really no way to do what I want? I basically just want the grid to change, and all the items, audio as well as MIDI, to remain in their original positions and play at the same speed.
And this is Reaper v5.977/x64 on W10.
Thanks.
__________________
// MVHMF
I never always did the right thing, but all I did wasn't wrong...
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05-10-2019, 02:32 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,714
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When timebases were first introduced, the devs reasoned that for the vast majority of cases, users would prefer MIDI to follow the tempo map and remain on the grid. Therefore,
* MIDI items do not follow the project default timebase. Instead they are automatically set to Beats, unless changed at item level. (To set their timebase, you must select the items, then right-click -> Item properties -> Set timebase to time; or run the action "Item properties: Set item timebase to time".)
* Even when a MIDI item's timebase is set to Time, it only affects the item start and item length. The MIDI notes and CCs *inside* the item will still follow the tempo map. To lock the MIDI notes and CCs to their time positions, the item Properties must be set to "Ignore project tempo", but if you simply change this setting, you will lose any existing tempo changes. To solve this problem SWS provides the actions "Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items and preserve time position of events (use tempo at item's start)". These actions can be applied to multiple items simultaneously.
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05-10-2019, 03:00 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7,416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader
When timebases were first introduced, the devs reasoned that for the vast majority of cases, users would prefer MIDI to follow the tempo map and remain on the grid. Therefore,
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Thanks for your reply. I'll experiment some more...
Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader
* MIDI items do not follow the project default timebase. Instead they are automatically set to Beats, unless changed at item level. (To set their timebase, you must select the items, then right-click -> Item properties -> Set timebase to time; or run the action "Item properties: Set item timebase to time".)
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It is strange then that in Item properties for the MIDI items it explicitly says "Track/project default time base". But OK, I'll set that to Time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader
* Even when a MIDI item's timebase is set to Time, it only affects the item start and item length. The MIDI notes and CCs *inside* the item will still follow the tempo map. To lock the MIDI notes and CCs to their time positions, the item Properties must be set to "Ignore project tempo", but if you simply change this setting, you will lose any existing tempo changes. To solve this problem SWS provides the actions "Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items and preserve time position of events (use tempo at item's start)". These actions can be applied to multiple items simultaneously.
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OK, so I did set the MIDI item properties to Time, and then ran the SWS/BR command "Enable 'Ignore project tempo' for selected MIDI items preserving time position (use tempo at item's start)". Then I changed the BPM to 172, and I got *almost* what I want. I expected the position of the MIDI items relative to the audio items to be preserved, but this did not happen. I can move the MIDI items manually, though. Not ideal, but better than anything else so far.
And of course, all the markers moved...
Thanks a lot.
__________________
// MVHMF
I never always did the right thing, but all I did wasn't wrong...
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05-10-2019, 03:35 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian
I expected the position of the MIDI items relative to the audio items to be preserved, but this did not happen.
...
And of course, all the markers moved...
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If all timebases were set to time, all items and markers should stay perfectly aligned. Since the markers moved, I suspect that Project Settings -> Timebase for items/envelopes/markers has not been set to time.
Since track timebase takes precedence over project timebase, track timebase can sometimes mess up item alignment if the items' timebase is set to "project/track default".
It may therefore be safer to just select all items, both audio and MIDI, and (temporarily) set all their item timebases to time.
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05-11-2019, 02:07 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7,416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader
If all timebases were set to time, all items and markers should stay perfectly aligned. Since the markers moved, I suspect that Project Settings -> Timebase for items/envelopes/markers has not been set to time.
Since track timebase takes precedence over project timebase, track timebase can sometimes mess up item alignment if the items' timebase is set to "project/track default".
It may therefore be safer to just select all items, both audio and MIDI, and (temporarily) set all their item timebases to time.
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Ah! Great! Thanks.
Fiddling with this back and forth I must have set something wrong. Now I set Project time base to Time, selected all items and set Item time base to Time, and selected all tracks and set Track timebase to Time. And of course Ignore tempo for all the MIDI items, and I also ran the SWS/BR action mentioned above.
Now! Finally... changing the BPM only changes the grid and does not (seem to) move or warp any media item. Thank you all.
__________________
// MVHMF
I never always did the right thing, but all I did wasn't wrong...
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09-15-2023, 12:42 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 25
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fix midi tempo in item
hi,
first thanx to all here for the knowledge shared. it helps so much!
i have a small problem with midi-tempo:
when i set a midi track in properties to "ignore project bpm", it remains at the desired speed. good so far, i change the tempo of the project " below the midi item.
but:
is it also possible to force a synth synced in this item (efx) to keep the fixed speed of this midi item?
for me the synth still is controlled by the system clock, even if i fix the midi item to its own speed.
thanx
stan
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09-15-2023, 12:51 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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you could try syncing your synth to a MIDI clock plugin rather than Reaper's bpm.
there are a few JS one's available or I think x42 or expert sleepers have them.
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