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Old 07-19-2011, 10:39 AM   #41
shoyoninja
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...

A joke would be putting a guy to do a soprano part in an opera. I wonder how the audience would react to a Lauretta with a beard... Surely in a circus it would come nice, with one of those midgets you mentioned doing some stuff too.


Voice classification has two purposes only: maintainning the character as the author meant it to be AND in technical trainning to define confortable ranges to work, specialy where the passaggio should happen. Aside from that, it is meanningless. I think that even you agree switching the gender of one of the characters would not be very faithfull to the original idea.

Also you seen to use the therm, "head voice", to define the same as falsetto. Which in the technical aspect is incorrect. Phonoaudiology defines two main registers, being them modal and falsetto. However, when you receive proper trainning there is a descriptor added to this, to serve as a reference of the sensations of resonance that leads to the correct placement of the modal register in order to avoid unnecessary tensions and maximize resonance, reducing the effort needed on the emission. This descriptor is the head voice.

There really isnt a head or chest voice, the voice resonates on the head all the time. The feeling we get on the chest bones WHEN the chest voice is correctly placed is just sympathetic.

That said, because we are used to the feeling of the modal voice on what would then be a lower register, being that just the part of the modal voice we speak into, and because normaly even that voice is far from being correctly used DURING singing, any attempt to go into higher pitchs results on more and more tensions.

The so called higher range thus is only accessible during moments of high emotional explosions, laughs, and other expontaneous acts from our body. And even this may be limited if the voice has any kind of disfuncion. You can not hope to guess all this info from a few lines of text over the internet. Not even a recording would be enough.

Any half decent professional would first know the student, notice how he usually speaks, hear him singing for a while, do some tests, maybe record something (I do this) and with time and patience figure what are the obstacles and slowly remove them. Working the basics of breathing and support on paralel.

The fact that you would come into a public forum and state that you are either born with this "natural" skill as you call it, and even compare the vocal folds to lips denotes how little and distorded information you have on the subject. And it is no wonder that you developed some disfunction as you stated.

Even more bizarre is this idea that people should discard their expectations and look for other kind of music or result. This is simply an excuse to mediocrity. Pop music has no limits whatsoever to tonal ranges, if you are doing your own music you can sing in whatever range you want. The main characteristc of the vocals of the styles mentioned on this thread is not the pitch, but the use of the range of the modal voice related to high emotional discharges. Be you a tenor, one of those rare baritones or even rarer bass, if you use it, you WILL get a similar result, and it will take the same large ammount of time and hard work to learn how to do it.

Everyone, and I MEAN everyone, that is in good health, can learn how to sing. Some can not become professional singers due to tonal quality or psicologic/personality charactersitcs. But they can learn. And this info can not be correctly determined before the singer has enough control to produce consistent results.

Furthermore, singing without proper trainning, be it on low, high, falsetto, whatsoever you call, registers can lead to serious problems, this is medical information and any Phonoaudiologist that has formal education and dont do his job in the "natural" or "inborn" way, will give you the same information. Many of those singers mentioned had problems and cant sing anything like they used to, for doing it in their "natural" way as you call it. However if you check trainned singers like Geoff Tate and Bruce Dickinson, their quality is still high, even on live shows and even having twice my age.

And I state again, trying to achieve this kind of level on your own is the road to disaster, EVEN if you can produce a similar sonic result, the chances that you do it without strainning yourself are remote at best.

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Old 07-19-2011, 01:27 PM   #42
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One day you will learn the history of male soprano in the opera.
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Old 07-19-2011, 05:56 PM   #43
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One day you will learn the history of male soprano in the opera.
Ouch! LOL! Already know it.

Was a first soprano as a kid in grade school chorus, LOL! Good thing I didn't want to stay a soprano!

Here's an interesting isolated vocal for discussion. Sounds corny at points, but there are spots where you can hear, he's got some technique going on.

E.g. around time 00:42 and beyond a bit.

Also sounds like there's some comb filtering on loader passages. As in perhaps done in a small vocal booth? Shouldn't be too hard to imitate the comb filtering with a really granualar delay, like, Voxengo Audio Delay that goes down to fractions of a ms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR7ed...eature=related

Not sure how I'd get the roughness this guy gets in those ranges without messing up my vocal chords.

I'm hoping there's some non damaging technique for this?
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:00 PM   #44
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...

Everyone, and I MEAN everyone, that is in good health, can learn how to sing. Some can not become professional singers due to tonal quality or psicologic/personality charactersitcs. But they can learn. And this info can not be correctly determined before the singer has enough control to produce consistent results.
I pretty much hope this is true. What may be less possible is to be a mimic. I.e. be able to switch among sounds heard on popular songs the way an impressionist like Rich Little does voices.

In my case, I'm pretty sure I don't have much of an "instrument", so's my work is cut out for me.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:16 PM   #45
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You are either born with that skill or you can forget it.
And it is just the same with multiinstrumentalists.
You can always try to learn to migrate from one instrument to the other, but you can never do it like for example James Morisson here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuJmMPggGA4
I'm not sure I agree with this. Instruments and music are largely about interval theory. If you understand that, then switching instruments is largely about physical skills, which can be learned. Geez, bazillion of people learn to touch type, so many folks should be able to learn instruments that have "buttons" and don't require things like a specific embrouchure (spelling?) etc.

Now, will they be great? Probably not. I can type a mile a minute, but commit mondo typos. If for other reason that a shooting range accident blew a hole in my index finger and I was in a brace for a long time.

Back in "the day" music and acting were trades, and people who practices them were considered somewhat dregs. It wasn't until mass media made it a way to get rich and famous that all this reverence for artists stuff started, right? I mean "The Green Room" refers to the color green, which back in Shakespear's day was the color of prostitution. Actors were often pimps and thier ladies waiting for them were working girls, hence "Green Room".

You know, if you daughter comes home and is hooked up with the local guitar wizz, you'd think, "Oh Christ, here we go." But it she came home hooked up with Paul McCartney, different gig, different reaction... The difference being commercial success.

Anyway, historically it was a trade, so it should be learnable by many. Granted the outcomes will be on a spectrum from awful to awesome. Same story with math. Almost all can add. Only a few are going to get more advanced topics. Everyone can improve with the $$$ to have the free time to pursue it.

Getting results quickly and effectively... is the real trick.

This strikes me as more of this "Magik Artist" thing that the industry has fostered for ages.

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As you can see not only can he switch instruments instantly with keeping the desired sound (which is impossible for 50% of otherwise gifted musicians) but he can as well play in a range which 99% of gifted musicians never can.
Brass players lips are nothing else but vocal chord for a singer. And my experience shows a very similar pattern with singers as well.
Let us think - for sure you know about people who just can't scream loud. Well in many cases they can't because they haven't got the material, not because they were not used to do so.
I agree here. You can only work with the chords you have. You can't, say engineer a guitar with frets closer together, change pickups, etc. Instruments are tools, and can be worked on to make them customized to the abilities and shortcomings of "individual x".

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Final remark: if you are not ok with your voice than others will probably also not be.
The only way is than to try another style of music - there are also styles where you can sing very quiet if your voice feels good in those dynamics etc.
Music is about finding new ways, not about copying - so there is no need to be frustrated if you haven't got IT. (like Danny DeVito couldn't be a basketball player but hence a good actor)
Well, with all the under aged kids that seem to be able to be taught to sing, as well as some hollywood stars that cross over, seems to me, that part of it which isn't irrevocably part of your physiology should be learnable.

But it takes instruction and information that's correct and digestible.

Consider how effective Ab Initio is in the Air Force. They take kids that have never flown, in the Air Force Academy, and in 1 year, have them combat capable in an F-16.

If you take a motivated person, take the day to day obstacles of life out of the way, dump the $$$ into the training... a lot can be accomplished in a short time.

Most of us don't have that luxury.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:20 PM   #46
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out of curiosity, mates:
Sometime I hear people, on tv, having a great imitation of different singing voices.
Most skilled teachers/listeners could easily say what's the actual voice range they belong to, despite they go to mimic, say, tenor, baritone or even soprano (being men...)
Is it up to a sort of natural skill you're born with or, just to help flmason, you can actually mimic the voice you are after without overdo and force it to death?
do you know some talented guys doing it naturally?
Yes, this question was on the back of my mind too.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:49 PM   #47
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I pretty much hope this is true. What may be less possible is to be a mimic. I.e. be able to switch among sounds heard on popular songs the way an impressionist like Rich Little does voices.

In my case, I'm pretty sure I don't have much of an "instrument", so's my work is cut out for me.
This kind of result is possible using classical approach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E6I3ru1cvM

He gives some details of what he did on the song. Everything under total control, no "natural" or "inborn" mystical secrets. Including choices of how the voice sounds.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:51 PM   #48
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I'm hoping there's some non damaging technique for this?
Nope, drive has its price. There are ways to reduce the damage to a minimum through resonance and breath support, but it will still happen.
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:16 AM   #49
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Flmason - you missed the point:
one thing is changing brass instruments, another changing instruments where you use your fingers solely. Everybody I know can do the latter.
Brass instruments are about breath technique and lip strain - so pretty much the same as singing.

And this explains everything. Also the things you are still curious about, although they were already being answered
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:46 AM   #50
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Yes, this question was on the back of my mind too.
The fundamental tonal quality of the voice cannot be changed at all. All you can do is try to use the same accents and choices as the original artist did. Too much and it becomes a comical act :P.
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:54 PM   #51
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Flmason - you missed the point:
one thing is changing brass instruments, another changing instruments where you use your fingers solely. Everybody I know can do the latter.
Brass instruments are about breath technique and lip strain - so pretty much the same as singing.

And this explains everything. Also the things you are still curious about, although they were already being answered
Yes, I understand the difference between say switching between piano and organ or even piano and guitar, vrs. wind instruments, even if I didn't express it well. There are some instruments that some people's physical characteristics help with. Perhaps all to some degree. Long fingers helps guitarists, right?

But if you understand the underpinnings of music, they all "look the same" from a composers viewpoint. (Even that's not entirely true... can't have a 4 minute flute note for example, practically speaking.)

My point is just that this stuff was a *trade* at one point in history. Something people learned and did, with schools of thought on how to pass the knowledge on. This is still evident in some genres.

However, pop and rock are noticibly lacking in this. For a number of reasons, no doubt. Everything from "Gotta protect my sound as it's my meal ticket" to "heck we're just making records to sell, no point in documenting all the details, let's get it to market" and so on.

But in the end, like touch typing, *playing* is a mechanical skill. Composing is more of an art with mathematical underpinnings. Singing, is playing, but you can't buy a different instrument, LOL!
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:15 PM   #52
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Yes, I understand the difference between say switching between piano and organ or even piano and guitar, vrs. wind instruments, even if I didn't express it well. There are some instruments that some people's physical characteristics help with. Perhaps all to some degree. Long fingers helps guitarists, right?

But if you understand the underpinnings of music, they all "look the same" from a composers viewpoint. (Even that's not entirely true... can't have a 4 minute flute note for example, practically speaking.)

My point is just that this stuff was a *trade* at one point in history. Something people learned and did, with schools of thought on how to pass the knowledge on. This is still evident in some genres.

However, pop and rock are noticibly lacking in this. For a number of reasons, no doubt. Everything from "Gotta protect my sound as it's my meal ticket" to "heck we're just making records to sell, no point in documenting all the details, let's get it to market" and so on.

But in the end, like touch typing, *playing* is a mechanical skill. Composing is more of an art with mathematical underpinnings. Singing, is playing, but you can't buy a different instrument, LOL!
1. you can easily play a 4 minute tone on a flute (circular breathing is a technique which all modern musicians are very familiar with)

2. ONCE AGAIN: playing brass instrument is very similar to singing - you can change the instrument, but your problems and tone remains the same within one sort of instrument. It is unlike wind instruments or others.

It is really not possible to tell you both guys something, cause you can't get it. You lack experience. Plus no philosophy will help you to find you way. There is just one cruel law in music business: "like" or "dislike"!
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:44 PM   #53
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I pretty much hope this is true. What may be less possible is to be a mimic. I.e. be able to switch among sounds heard on popular songs the way an impressionist like Rich Little does voices.

In my case, I'm pretty sure I don't have much of an "instrument", so's my work is cut out for me.
But you see, there are so many things that you can be doing improperly, and such a long road until all muscles are effectivelly active and coordinated that it is not possible for anyone to know beforehand what will be the final result that you can achieve.

A very experienced coach can tell with a certain degree of precision the overall tonal quality of your voice, if your spoken voice is somewhat correctly placed. Still, most males are tenors. And males go through a hard time when they are growing up and the voice starts to fall appart, as the larynx suddenly changes and your brain has to learn again how to use all the muscles, breathing included.

The problem is: in an attempt to stop the voice from going weird and slipping into falsetto, and in an attempt to sound "grown up", it is very common that an habit of darkening the voice through pressing down the larynx, or forcing the voice to the back the head is developed. This creates tons of uneeded tensions and completely masks the tone, giving a wrong impression that the voice is heavy. And since tenors are most likely to have a light spoken voice, the habit goes on through adulthood unless some intervention is done to correct it.

Breathing is also another point that most surely is not working properly. Without some kind of trainning the chances are that: when you take a breath, you are expanding the upper part of the rib cage only, which will lead to wrong postures and tensions on the neck area. Besides it will not allow you to properly use the lower abnominal muscles that support the diafragm to control the air flow, requiring more and more pressure on the larynx to make up to any problems and stabilize the tone.

Do a simple exercise and you will notice the difference immediately. Take a deep breath and notice where the air SEEMS to go. Odds are: upper torax. Do it again and observe how you can feel an ammount of pressure affecting even your neck muscles if you try to take in a larger ammount of air.

Now, instead of just breathing, pick something with a nice perfume, like a flower, some fruit, or anything you like, exale the air you have now in your lungs (keeping it confortable) and smell it. Try to identify all the fragrances you can. Do it again and observe now where the sensation is. Notice how little or no movement is required on the upper part of your torax.

Although SOME movement on the upper torax to further build air pressure for demmanding passages is welcome, the basics of breathing tech is this movement you just did to smell. Now the movement happens on your lower ribs and abdomen. Make no mistake, the air ISNT going into your belly, it is filling the lungs, just the same. Only now instead of depressing the chest internal pressure through lifting the upper part of your torax, you are relaxing the lower abdomen and giving room for the diafragm to depress. This also allows the lower ribs to move and also create negative pressure.

Now tell me: do you use something like this to breath when singing? Were you ever even concerned about breathing at all? Even more importantly: do you believe that it is possible for someone to perform well on stage or even when recording while concerning about smelling the mic at literally every breath?

The last question is the key spot: If you have to think about it, you have not yet learned how to do it and you cant use it properly. So you will have to first learn how to control this movement by just your will, then you will have to learn other movements in order to control air flow and pressure.

Finally you will have to do exercises to connect all this to your voice, only then your singing voice will benefit from it.

Not only that, but without proper guidance, there is no way for you to tell if you are doing it correctly or not. Not all people are affected the same way by the references, other references must therefore be used in complement. Even when you get it right, there will be a lot of room for improvement.


Anyways IF your voice is really deeper and heavier than most, you are a very lucky guy. Most of those classic/hairy rock songs are about delivering power and punch, and a heavier tone is most desirable to achieve this. A few examples: Jeff Scott Soto, David Coverdale and Zack Stevens (Circle II Circle/Savatage).

Still, the odds are that this is not the case.

Last edited by shoyoninja; 07-21-2011 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 07-21-2011, 05:06 PM   #54
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1. you can easily play a 4 minute tone on a flute (circular breathing is a technique which all modern musicians are very familiar with)

2. ONCE AGAIN: playing brass instrument is very similar to singing - you can change the instrument, but your problems and tone remains the same within one sort of instrument. It is unlike wind instruments or others.

It is really not possible to tell you both guys something, cause you can't get it. You lack experience. Plus no philosophy will help you to find you way. There is just one cruel law in music business: "like" or "dislike"!
No disrespect, but this is laughable, LOL!

"Can't get it?" Geezus, I've analyzed and corrected code making some companies millions a year... that I didn't write.

It comes down to having the motivation and money to have the free time to do the analysis and work with the issues at hand, LOL! This is true for *everything*.

Now as begets the music thing, sure I lack experience in spades. Have had to make a living most of my life, and was never good enough to do it with music, that's for sure.

What music seems to be full of is a lot of half truths and other un-fully studied issues. Just the plethora of "schools of singing" etc. says that it's still in the realm of, I dunno, "We tried this and it worked so we call it a school of thought" kind of thing, LOL! Alchemy type thinking or something.

Granted, many disciplines start out empirically and the underpinning reality has to be found at a later time.

If we really "knew" what worked we could make statements like:

"A 2 to 1 ratio of second harmonic to first is what makes rock vocals present in a mix in the fashion of Robert Plant". And so on.

I.e. objective descriptions of the phenomenon in certain terms with clear cut examples of the principle at work.

Followed up by clear cut methods for the practical application, e.g "For most people's physiology, lower the larnyx somewhat fosters the generation of a louder second harmonic"...

And so on.

As for the issues you raise...

"People who's embrouchures lack [characterist x] find it more difficult to make clear tones with a horn. And so forth.

OK, so a 4 minute flute example was a poor and hastilly chosen example, but I think you understand the concept. Some note durations, on some instruments are impossible.



This is why I find "Guitar Tone Mojo" speak so irritating. If we really knew, we could recreate any classic or even new sound with ease in the digital domain. E.g. "The Marshall sound comes from the following overtones series" and so on.

Anyway, all kibitzing aside, I appreciate your extensive and thought out responses.
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:12 AM   #55
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Well the discussion has a very narrow title High Register Male Vocal Technique?
With a question paraphrased "why can't I?".
I told you it is mostly dependent on your gift, whether shoyo told you that you can probably work it out.

It was about your falsetto voice and I would be most happy to hear you will work this out in one year or so - but you probably won't.
I told you some pro musician experience and shoyo told you some theory.
Let us forget the male soprano thing, because nobody in this thread obviously studied music history here (but me), plus it is off topic.

What you are now talking about is kinda off topic and has not much to do with your falsetto issue.

What I do as music teacher very good is that I tell to my students first what they can and what they probably can't do, after that we go on with the know how. And this helps them to decide better. Even more: my class was one of the best in the whole state, so trust me, I know what I am talking about.

One thing though is true: you should have recorded yourself and let us hear if your problem really is as reported by you. But I trust you as a grown up, that you did it objectively (otherwise you know better anyway).

And ouch - sometimes it is just no good to be an expert here - cause everybody knows better than you
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:54 AM   #56
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What music seems to be full of is a lot of half truths and other un-fully studied issues. Just the plethora of "schools of singing" etc. says that it's still in the realm of, I dunno, "We tried this and it worked so we call it a school of thought" kind of thing, LOL! Alchemy type thinking or something.

Granted, many disciplines start out empirically and the underpinning reality has to be found at a later time.

If we really "knew" what worked we could make statements like:

"A 2 to 1 ratio of second harmonic to first is what makes rock vocals present in a mix in the fashion of Robert Plant". And so on.

I.e. objective descriptions of the phenomenon in certain terms with clear cut examples of the principle at work.

Followed up by clear cut methods for the practical application, e.g "For most people's physiology, lower the larnyx somewhat fosters the generation of a louder second harmonic"...
Phonoaudiology describes what you want. And most professionals on that area recommend undergoing classical trainning to achieve it.

Presence on recordings is always subproduct of forward placement and covering, which results on a boost on the 3KHz range.

The method and research exist and there are quite good books on them avaiable. But it would be useless for you. It would be like trying to learn how to use jiu-jitsu style from writen papers without prior experience on martial arts..

Still, if you insist:

http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Sing...1338683&sr=8-5

One of the best books on the subject, with very precise descriptions. Still, the chances that it will do any good to you just by reading it are close to zero.
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:10 PM   #57
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Phonoaudiology describes what you want. And most professionals on that area recommend undergoing classical trainning to achieve it.

Presence on recordings is always subproduct of forward placement and covering, which results on a boost on the 3KHz range.

The method and research exist and there are quite good books on them avaiable. But it would be useless for you. It would be like trying to learn how to use jiu-jitsu style from writen papers without prior experience on martial arts..

Still, if you insist:

http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Sing...1338683&sr=8-5

One of the best books on the subject, with very precise descriptions. Still, the chances that it will do any good to you just by reading it are close to zero.
Not neccesarily true. I'll have to read it and see.

For example, some things I've read that seem to confirm what I'm finding by experimentation...

1) Relaxed larynx and facial muscles

2) Sometimes it is useful to keep the sound at the palate, or imagine the back of your throat is where the sound should come from

3) The fundamental vowel is "Ah" and all other vowels stem from it. (I suppose I could demonstrate this in person if I had to, and/or describe to someone how to use this idea to understand vowel evolution and control, especially where a vowel needs to sound like a dipthong.)

and so on.

It's basically takes someone who really knows...*and*... knows or remembers what it's like to *not know* and how to "make the light go on".

Having had to explain some seriously technical things over the years to make a living, it's a skill I've had to develop. Granted you rarely see me use it here, because I'm still learning this stuff.

But in my professional life, writing actionable explanations has earned my living for a good percentage of my adult life.

So's it can be done, but it takes someone as described... and who also has the motivation or want, to share the info.

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Old 07-22-2011, 11:40 PM   #58
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Not neccesarily true. I'll have to read it and see.

For example, some things I've read that seem to confirm what I'm finding by experimentation...

1) Relaxed larynx and facial muscles

2) Sometimes it is useful to keep the sound at the palate, or imagine the back of your throat is where the sound should come from

3) The fundamental vowel is "Ah" and all other vowels stem from it. (I suppose I could demonstrate this in person if I had to, and/or describe to someone how to use this idea to understand vowel evolution and control, especially where a vowel needs to sound like a dipthong.)

and so on.

It's basically takes someone who really knows...*and*... knows or remembers what it's like to *not know* and how to "make the light go on".

Having had to explain some seriously technical things over the years to make a living, it's a skill I've had to develop. Granted you rarely see me use it here, because I'm still learning this stuff.

But in my professional life, writing actionable explanations has earned my living for a good percentage of my adult life.

So's it can be done, but it takes someone as described... and who also has the motivation or want, to share the info.

Nope, wont work. Also you should know that using this Ah thing is most likely to just mess up with your voice and send you to a stage even more distant from what you want to achieve. Same thing applies to the soft-palate thing, which is simply a poor and naive description of covering.
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:26 PM   #59
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Nope, wont work. Also you should know that using this Ah thing is most likely to just mess up with your voice and send you to a stage even more distant from what you want to achieve. Same thing applies to the soft-palate thing, which is simply a poor and naive description of covering.
I'd say "covering" is a more obscure term, as read by a newbie. "Covering what?" Geez, it's as intractable as "laryngeal funnel" or whatever from the CVT school of thought.

If I knew what worked... I wouldn't be looking for answers and trying stuff, LOL!

Do you recognize that you appear as an elitist or is it possible english isn't your first language?
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:34 PM   #60
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I'd say "covering" is a more obscure term, as read by a newbie. "Covering what?" Geez, it's as intractable as "laryngeal funnel" or whatever from the CVT school of thought.

If I knew what worked... I wouldn't be looking for answers and trying stuff, LOL!

Do you recognize that you appear as an elitist or is it possible english isn't your first language?
Sorry, its really not my first language. But I think the word used in english is also "covering" or "cover".

Its a descriptor used to address what the singer should feel when the voice is close to the half of the tessitura and everything is being done correctly (on tenors, its around F/F#). One of the things that happens is that there is a lift of the soft-palate, which the singer will probably feel like a small pressure on that area. But there are many other things that happens also, as the vowels become less open, almost on the direction of a nasal vowel, and it becomes very easy to continue to sing on through the tessitura, as easy as it is on the lower notes.

The descriptor is needed because if you dont let how the voice FEELS change, you will make all sort of efforts to keep the same feeling going on, turning the voice into a scream as more and more pressure is done on the larynx.

But this is only usefull if the voice is already trainned up to the point that breathing, support, emission and focus are at least working. Also, although there is somewhat a pattern to it, what each singer feel can vary a lot. For example: I cant feel nothing happening on the soft palate, so that is uselles in my case, and some good months were spent on trial and error to find another reference that worked for me.

But then what happens? Some genius read a paper of phonoaudiology that states that when a classical singer does the passaggio (transition from chest to head voice) the most noticiable change is a lift on the soft palate.

Our genius then goes on to develop his own, new, non medieval and super fast method that gives you 10 extra octaves of range. In this method he states that all that the classical school says is crap: support and breathing are useless. All that you have to do is learn how to lift the soft palate up to the sky and send the voice back there, all that in 2 months.

And truth is: you surelly can learn how to just push the voice against the palate, all in one day, keep it there and sound like a disney cartoon (stitch probably). There will be a small increase in the range, but it will be hard to do, you will not be able to control dinamics and you will get tired very quickly.

Continuing to do so will make your voice more resilient to this kind of abuse, wich will lead to long term abuse and the assimilation of this posture of the soft palate. Eventually, as you get older and less flexible, the range will start to decrease, so you will push more and more against it, until the damage amounts so much that a nodule or another physical problem occurs. Which will then lead you to a doctor, then to a phonoaudiologist who will do a long treatment to fix the problem and will tell you to seek a proper teacher if you want to sing on those high ranges.

Finding that teacher you will be told that the voice should NEVER be pressed against the soft palate, and that rarely someone needs to directly control the palate (sometimes its usefull AS a reference). A long trainning will be done just to remove the old habit from your voice and then, back from the basics.


*The genius I referred here is not you, but the things like SLS, and other youtube "learn to sing in 15 days" freaks.

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Old 08-18-2011, 05:59 PM   #61
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Well it is inborn.
With falsetto you can not make a full sound normally.
+ it is dangerous to use it to much.

...And yes, with falsetto also the deeper voice can range up to C5, but usually with a cartoon-like voice (e.g. Noddy or similar).
Although I didn't take vocal training till later in my singing career, my teacher was a well known opera singer who taught me a few things. One was that we all have a range that is our sweet spot; going over or under that our voice will not be that effective.

As for your point: Prince is HUGE on using Falsetto and his voice is better today, 30 years later. Falsetto is not bad for your voice, just bad for your image as a rock singer.

Noddy Holder's voice is definitely NOT falsetto. That's natural voice. Just up there. You don't get resonance like that from falsetto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passaggio
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:49 PM   #62
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Although I didn't take vocal training till later in my singing career, my teacher was a well known opera singer who taught me a few things. One was that we all have a range that is our sweet spot; going over or under that our voice will not be that effective.

As for your point: Prince is HUGE on using Falsetto and his voice is better today, 30 years later. Falsetto is not bad for your voice, just bad for your image as a rock singer.

Noddy Holder's voice is definitely NOT falsetto. That's natural voice. Just up there. You don't get resonance like that from falsetto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passaggio
Indeed.

But about falsetto not having resonance... I suggest taking a look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRHJX...layer_embedded

Its very hard to notice if its falsetto or not, I find it simply amazing. (still when he uses full voice on lower notes, the difference becomes quite clear)
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:55 PM   #63
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I don't believe it's falsetto.

I wonder if he is a castrato, not in the traditional way but by some accident of nature, etc. I could be wrong, naturally.

It was suggested that Michael Jackson had issues that didn't allow him to fully develop a lower male voice. A childhood illness that affected his testosterone development. But I can't prove that unless we dig him up. Want to help me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:14 PM   #64
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Check this out: The first and last castrato recording.

http://www.archive.org/details/AlessandroMoreschi
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:40 PM   #65
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I don't believe it's falsetto.

I wonder if he is a castrato, not in the traditional way but by some accident of nature, etc. I could be wrong, naturally.

It was suggested that Michael Jackson had issues that didn't allow him to fully develop a lower male voice. A childhood illness that affected his testosterone development. But I can't prove that unless we dig him up. Want to help me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato
Nope. Not an accident of nature. His spoken voice is just a little lighter than mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jaHlfztF74

Probably just as light as most users of this forum. BUT, his technique is really impressive.

You can actually notice the difference when he sings lower notes, if you pay really close attention. Either he keeps in falsetto and the tone becomes almost airy OR he pass into modal voice and it looses the "girly" color.

Very subtle, does not compromise the performance at all, but it is there.
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:20 AM   #66
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I think an update here is due, since the thread started as a battle over what one can or can not do with his voice, I now have some pratical example as was requested:

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/VNBPjiqY/forever.html

I was recording as I was studying some songs and this came up. 2 Takes, one before and one after the solo.

Still a long way to what I want to achieve, but its "high register", or above the passaggio. The higher sections demand much more energy and physical engagement of muscles on the abdomen and back, but on the throat its as easy as singing low notes.

So, since I could not sing this 6 months ago even if my life depended on it, and now I can get it on a confortable way, this idea of being "inborn skill" is effectivelly discarded. And as I stated before, it only become possible after getting more efficiency and freedom on the lower register.
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Old 01-18-2012, 07:44 AM   #67
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Hey Shoyo. It's sounding good. The notes are pretty clean. There's a bit of faltering on some transitions to the higher register - or that's what it sounds like to me.

re; adding range: Years ago, David Lee Roth added some notes to his range - which he makes use of on the new Van Halen song, "Tattoo."

However, I still stand behind the notion of a "sweet spot" - that range where our voice seems most effective in richness and control. That is not to say that we can't go under or over it but that doing so requires, as you say, a lot more skill and control. And sometimes even then the notes may not be as good as those in the sweet spot.

However, if you're not feeling it in your throat, then you are doing it properly.
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:13 AM   #68
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Hey Shoyo. It's sounding good. The notes are pretty clean. There's a bit of faltering on some transitions to the higher register - or that's what it sounds like to me.

re; adding range: Years ago, David Lee Roth added some notes to his range - which he makes use of on the new Van Halen song, "Tattoo."

However, I still stand behind the notion of a "sweet spot" - that range where our voice seems most effective in richness and control. That is not to say that we can't go under or over it but that doing so requires, as you say, a lot more skill and control. And sometimes even then the notes may not be as good as those in the sweet spot.

However, if you're not feeling it in your throat, then you are doing it properly.
Oh yes, it will take a few more months of practice to get it better, maybe years. And I choose to not comp or edit the track to get things more real, this is study material, I wouldnt use this for a demo.

Im just pointing out that its there, head voice. Modal and not falsetto, and most surely I was not "born" knowing how to do this. If I can do it and make this song sound good, I assure you that ALL of you guys can.

Also this is not about simply adding range, most tenors believe that their voices are limited around E3-F3, just because they dont know how to use the rest of their tessitura (which is what you define as sweet spot). This is not enough for most pop material, which then results in screamming and strainning.

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