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Old 01-02-2009, 03:11 PM   #1
Bebop52
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400 killed in Gaza by Israel. Only 4 Israelis killed by Palestine. Home made rockets. Not on the Israeli side. All backed by USA, the most warmongering country in the world.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:29 PM   #2
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Surely you're not suggesting Hamas be provided with "professional" rockets.
Everyone wants to see a fair fight, but those Hamas guys are pretty hardcore.
Cease-fire sounds like a great idea, IMHO.
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Old 01-05-2009, 05:10 PM   #3
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To any Israeli or Palestinian citizens:

This is a music-related forum, so I'd love to hear some music from you - recorded in Reaper or otherwise. We're all musicians and engineers here, so speak to us in our language. This is an open call for opinions/feelings/inspirations from both sides of the conflict in a form we can all get down with.

Reaper FM or direct links.

Let's hear it.

Politics is touchy, but everyone speaks music.
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Old 01-05-2009, 05:58 PM   #4
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400 killed in Gaza by Israel. Only 4 Israelis killed by Palestine. Home made rockets. Not on the Israeli side. All backed by USA, the most warmongering country in the world.
You're right, Israel is being a bit excessive. But what would you like them to do when Hamas-supported militants keep tossing rockets over the border? Not to mention that part of Hamas' purpose for existence is the complete destruction of Israel. What should Israel's response be?
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:15 PM   #5
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Israel's response should be political negotiation, not miltary murder. Another 40 civilians killed by Israelis in schools. Jesus. And yes, let's make music, not war.
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:31 PM   #6
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all casualties are tragedies. Especially the innocent victims on both sides of the fence.

I would wager that the details of this conflict are a good deal more complicated than we can imagine from half a world away. And what Israel is doing now, is hardly different from what the US did in 2001 and since in Afghanistan and Iraq. Not much different than what the UK AUS and Canada and ________ joined in on.

I have a prayer for all people there. A prayer for peace. I won't pretend to understand why this shit is happening, so I will not be judgmental. I'll pray, and hopefully raise my kids to love all of humanity and choose conflict-free conflict resolution when they have to confront problems.

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Old 01-06-2009, 03:54 PM   #7
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... is hardly different from what the US did in 2001 and since in Afghanistan and Iraq. Not much different than what the UK AUS and Canada and ________ joined in on.
Not to open a can of worms, but it's probably worth noting that Iraq and Afghanistan are very different scenarios, (although people tend to confuse them and lump them together). Iraq was a unilateral invasion by a couple of countries. The war in Afghanistan is a UN-sanctioned action, and is happening at the request of the elected Afghan government and is an action with the support of the majority of the people of Afghanistan.

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I have a prayer for all people there. A prayer for peace.
I'll join you on that one, Tallisman. I spent the day yesterday at this funeral for a good, good man.
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:26 PM   #8
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An aspect of the current situation in Gaza, that fills me with dread (I jest not) is that many or most of the residents of Gaza are children.
The trauma experienced can have a brutalising affect on young minds. The seeds of tragedy are sewn for the next generation to repeat. Too sad for words...

Last edited by Guod3; 01-06-2009 at 04:40 PM. Reason: misspelled tragedy
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:30 PM   #9
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if 911 had not happened in New York
there would be no war in Afghanistan today
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:36 PM   #10
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if 911 had not happened, its very hard (read impossible) to speculate in a reasonable way, what would have.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:12 AM   #11
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Israel is in a no-win situation with Gaza.

If they do nothing, militants continue to pelt them with missiles. This results in dead civilians. There is additional concern that recent shipments of missiles smuggled in might have the range to attack nuclear facilities which could be more catastrophic than an occasional rocket attack. Allowing the missile attacks to continue is a losing proposition.

If they attack the militants in Gaza, the militants, well acquainted with the war of public opinion, will continue to mount their attacks from civilian positions, drawing fire towards innocent civilians they are more than willing to sacrifice for the sorts of photographs that can sway the war of public opinion. So the Israelis ultimately get drawn into firing on civilian positions. Attacking innocent Palestinians is also a losing proposition.

Cease fires have proven to be meaningless. You can't sign treaties with people who have stated their only goal is your destruction. So any kind of treaty or cease fire is also a losing proposition.

So if you're the president or prime minister, looking at a disaster whichever way you choose, do you choose for the disaster which leads to the death of your innocent civilians or the disaster which leads to the death of your enemy's innocent civilians?
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:20 AM   #12
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Lets boil it down to a personal level:

You're sitting at home alone locked in your house with pistols, a few shotguns and a high-powered deer rifle.

Me and my street gang come by every day and throw 50 or 60 rocks a day at your windows from across the street. Occasionally we randomly shoot into your windows with a .22, not a big rifle, just a popgun.... but lethal.

You call the cops but they only send a stern letter over to my clubhouse.

This goes on for weeks, months, years.

.....now what are you TRUTHFULLY going to do????
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:36 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
if 911 had not happened in New York
there would be no war in Afghanistan today
Please, this is a very tough simplification of the facts. People who have studied this subject very hard are convinced that basically 911 was not a message to the US or even the Western world but to the Muslim world which has left the path of the Islam and deals dirty business with the Western world. Syriana is a movie which gives some insight in the dynamics of this.

The Bush administration, in its desparation to DO SOMETHING after the shock and awe (sic!) of 911, decided to open a war in Afghanistan and later in Iraq. This was very convenient as several members of the Bush administration had (and some still have) close ties and financial interests in war business (e.g. Halliburton). So 911 is connected only remotely to these wars. I wouldn't be surprised if they already know where Bin Laden lives, but keep it quiet to continue the war.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:42 AM   #14
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Israel is in a no-win situation with Gaza.
I think you're right, but considering the fact that in the Israeli government there must (also) be intelligent people: what is the REAL REASON that they did this? Think about it beyond the headlines in the paper.

I haven't got the answer myself but I have learned that in situations like this one, only rarely things happen for reasons that are published. Think for instance about the internal problems among the Palestinians (Fatah vs. Hamas). Israel attacks Hamas. Fatah actually gains from what is happening now. You might even say: Israel is doing Fatah a favour. No Palestinian will say this out loud, but it is a fact. So, why is Israel doing this?
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:38 AM   #15
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Anything that casts Hamas in a bad light is, at this point, good for Israel. It's clear that Hamas have no intention of cooperating, so the Israelis have no real incentive to continue the diplomatic approach. A different party in charge of Gaza might be more willing to work together, particularly if Gaza has just had the living shit bombed out of it.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:14 PM   #16
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Hard to fathom that, in 2009, nobody on this planet can solve this problem. I mean, this little strip of land is barely 140 sq miles... Canada could give those living there twice that to call their own, without blinking or even feeling any strain...
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:16 PM   #17
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Yes, the reason it is happening is because USA have consistently funded Israel for years, because there are many Israeli Jews in America. And Israael are indiscriminatlely murdering Palestiniens, men, women, children, who are firing toy home made rockets. They want the Gaza strip.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:25 PM   #18
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why rockets?

why not just go in there with ground troops and round up the bad guys?
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:45 PM   #19
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Jeez Jason, that's exactly what the Israelis have been doing for 13 days now. Do you guys in USA believe CNN news? I was in Seattle during the Iraq war, and CNN was incredibly biased and innacurate. 'Weapons of mass destruction' Yeah, right. Not one ever found. Not one Israeli killed in the initial air strikes. Thousands of Israeli ground troops deep in Gaza right now.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:46 PM   #20
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Hard to fathom that, in 2009, nobody on this planet can solve this problem. I mean, this little strip of land is barely 140 sq miles... Canada could give those living there twice that to call their own, without blinking or even feeling any strain...
Yeah, but the size of the land has no meaning.
It's the significance and symbolism placed on it by those fighting for it.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:48 PM   #21
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Jeez Jason, that's exactly what the Israelis have been doing for 13 days now. Do you guys in USA believe CNN news? I was in Seattle during the Iraq war, and CNN was incredibly biased and innacurate. 'Weapons of mass destruction' Yeah, right. Not one ever found. Not one Israeli killed in the initial air strikes. Thousands of Israeli ground troops deep in Gaza right now.
well, why are they firing rockets then?!!

I dont bother watching news except for the daily show and the colbert report hehe
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:48 PM   #22
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Yes, the reason it is happening is because USA have consistently funded Israel for years, because there are many Israeli Jews in America. And Israael are indiscriminatlely murdering Palestiniens, men, women, children, who are firing toy home made rockets. They want the Gaza strip.
Thanks for the analysis, but you forgot to explain Hamas' role in this.
[sarcasm] You know, how they only go for military targets and do everything to avoid puting their women and children in the firing line.[/sarcasm]

Overseas funding and supply is probably the only way Israel could survive (militarily), and yes, their behaviour in this matter (Gaza atm) is atrocious. Very few in Israel "want Gaza".
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Old 01-08-2009, 07:01 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Bebop52 View Post
Yes, the reason it is happening is because USA have consistently funded Israel for years, because there are many Israeli Jews in America. And Israael are indiscriminatlely murdering Palestiniens, men, women, children, who are firing toy home made rockets. They want the Gaza strip.
There is not a true sentence to be found in that paragraph.

Yes, the reason it is happening is because USA have consistently funded Israel for years, because there are many Israeli Jews in America.

The USA has consistently funded Israel since Johnson's administration. The administrations prior to Johnson were not convinced the fledgling state would even survive and wanted to hedge their bets against pissing off the entire oil producing middle east. After winning the first several waves of attacks over the first two decades of its existence, the US started to realize that Israel wasn't going anywhere and that there were strategic advantages to supporting it. Johnson began the process by approving the sale of real hardware to Israel but the US continued to support their neighbors in similar fashion. Real military support was not given to Israel from the US until the YK War of 1973.

As far as there being many Israeli Jews in America, this is completely incorrect. The number of actual Israelis in the United States is incredibly small. Of course, the population of Israel is itself not terribly huge in contrast to the US. But I'm sure you were meaning to spew the usual rhetoric about the vast number of Jews in the US. According to one of the most accurate surveys (from the JPPPI's 2007 study), of the 13.2 million Jewish people worldwide, 5.4 million reside in Israel and 5.3 reside in the US (the next largest population is France with less than half a million). It is estimated that the US crossed the 300 million person population mark sometime in 2006. 5 million out of 300+ million. Not only does that not constitute any sort of majority, it's an incredibly small minority by American standards.

And Israael are indiscriminatlely murdering Palestiniens, men, women, children, who are firing toy home made rockets.

Qassam rockets have no guidance systems and tend to carry relatively simple explosive payloads; home made definitely fits as a description. I'm sure the citizens killed in Qassam attacks or those who have had their homes, schools, places of worship damaged or destroyed in these attacks would not agree that Qassam rockets are toys.

They want the Gaza strip.

Not even the far right wing, pro-war constituency wants Gaza occupied again. The first occupation was a disaster from all points of view. There is absolutely zero benefit to Israel to occupy Gaza: it costs plenty of resources while producing absolutely nothing; the population is entirely hostile; there is no strategic or military advantage to holding that territory; there is virtually no negotiable or diplomatic advantage to holding that territory as the enemies fully refuse to pursue any negotiations or diplomacy with the country their very charters seek to destroy. Who wants Gaza? There is nothing in it for anybody. There were certainly military goals going into this attack on Gaza; occupation isn't one of them.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:01 AM   #24
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Yeah, but the size of the land has no meaning.
It's the significance and symbolism placed on it by those fighting for it.
Yeah, just wondering out loud. I mean, what if the general population was given the chance to start over in a peaceful setting, in a place to call their own, a home to settle in in peace and security, wouldn't they go? Aren't they tired to be held hostage by all the factions in cause? What kind of quality of life do they have when they don't know what they'll be deprived off next, or if they or their children will even be alive the next day?
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:56 AM   #25
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715 Palestininians killed by Israelis now, 11 Israelis by Palestinians. Speaks for itself doesn't it? UN have suspended aid work in Gaza because they and the Red Cross have been blown to bits by Israelis. 700,000 people there now starving.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:04 PM   #26
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Israel and Palestine have absolutely nothing to do with 911. Most Americans don't even have a passport, and have never been out of USA. Total ignorance from the most powerful warmongering country in the world.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:55 PM   #27
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715 Palestininians killed by Israelis now, 11 Israelis by Palestinians. Speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're right, it says "Israel is winning". Perhaps shooting rockets at the Israelis wasn't such a good idea on the part of Hamas and their pals?

As I asked earlier, what other option does Israel have? Hamas don't seem to understand what "ceasefire" means, so that's out.

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UN have suspended aid work in Gaza because they and the Red Cross have been blown to bits by Israelis. 700,000 people there now starving.
Unless you're getting different news than me, Israeli troops fired at one UN convoy, killing the driver and injuring a few others. The circumstances are still being looked at, and the Israelis are claiming that it wasn't necessarily them. Don't just assume the worst-case explanation.

As for people starving, yeah, it sucks. You know what else sucks? Having to share your hiding spot with some guy firing rockets out the window, and hoping nobody shoots back. Terrorists love to do this specifically because it makes shooting back so ethically difficult. A lack of food and aid in Gaza serves the same purpose - Israel looks bad if they keep going. However, if they keep going, either Hamas or the Palestinians will crack and throw up the white flag. Don't forget that it's entirely within Hamas' power to stop the conflict and get food for they people they claim to represent.

Modern thinking says that siege warfare is cruel because it affects civilians, but when your enemy are already trying to use the civilian presence for their own gain, well, there's little sense in playing by the rules if you expect to get anywhere.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:43 AM   #28
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if 911 had not happened in New York
there would be no war in Afghanistan today
That's just wrong. Afghanistan is a great place for war, and has attracted combatants from time out of mind. Alexander, Genghis, Persians, Hepthalites, Chinese, Turks, Arabs, Russia and Great Britain have all fought there.

If the United States did not exist there would be wars in Afghanistan, interrupted only by outbreaks of Buddhism.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:13 AM   #29
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Two Palestinian women who haven't seen each other in years are catching each other up:

The taller of the two asks, "How is little Jamal?"

"He got tall, and was a fine soldier for Allah, and martyred himself at a Jewish daycare when he was twenty-one," proudly boasted the shorter woman.

"My Habib did that at an Israeli dance club on his twenty-second birthday. And his little brother Abdul tried again the very next day, but the belt went off early, he is a martyr, I believe, insh'Allah," said the taller woman worriedly.

"But little Amir, he killed eight Jews at temple when he was but fourteen," she recovered triumphantly.

The shorter woman nodded happily, and grinned.

The short woman said, "Oh, they blow up so fast!"
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:40 PM   #30
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lokasenna - an important detail: the Palestinians in Gaza are refugees. They were forced from their homes in '48. Ashkelon, where they are sending their rather pathetic rockets, was home to many of them or their parents. They didn't just spring up, crazy anti-semites, from nowhere. What is the end game? 1.5 million stateless people crammed into a strip by the sea - unable to receive goods, power, water except through the grace of the nation which displaced them. You might be tempted to send rockets over as well.

What's needed is a Marshall plan in the territories, that and an Israeli return to the '67 borders. You can't demand peace while you are actively stealing land.

Lest I be accused of being anti-semitic, I am a Jew and I have lived in Israel (granted a long time ago).

I think the current invasion is both stupid and wrong. and no, killing 500 civilians is not any kind of "winning"
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:53 AM   #31
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Yeah, bitchin' about Israel that they have killed so many and hamas only a few Israeli's...

If you take your women and whildren as a shield for enemy attacks in a time of war, then you really have to be retarded. No question about it.

Someone told me that it is understandable that muslims don't care to do that since the quran states that women and children don't mean a lot. In fact he showed me a part that definately is straightforward about this.

I hope they wipe out all hamas militants so all Israeli's and palestinians will be able to live in peace!

Go Israel!
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Old 01-12-2009, 11:11 AM   #32
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Israel withdrew from Gaza in the 90s, and has agreed that the West Bank would make a great home for all of those Palestinians. Why hasn't it happened yet?

1. Because a number of the other Arab countries are still stuck on getting rid of Israel altogether, and won't recognize anything the Jews do.

2. Because idiots on both sides, though predominantly Palestinian, keep breaking ceasefires.

I think Israel has shown a genuine interest in solving the Palestinian issue numerous times. Instead of working with them, groups like Hamas keep insisting on more.
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Old 01-12-2009, 11:17 AM   #33
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lokasenna - an important detail: the Palestinians in Gaza are refugees. They were forced from their homes in '48. Ashkelon, where they are sending their rather pathetic rockets, was home to many of them or their parents. They didn't just spring up, crazy anti-semites, from nowhere. What is the end game? 1.5 million stateless people crammed into a strip by the sea - unable to receive goods, power, water except through the grace of the nation which displaced them. You might be tempted to send rockets over as well.

What's needed is a Marshall plan in the territories, that and an Israeli return to the '67 borders. You can't demand peace while you are actively stealing land.

Lest I be accused of being anti-semitic, I am a Jew and I have lived in Israel (granted a long time ago).

I think the current invasion is both stupid and wrong. and no, killing 500 civilians is not any kind of "winning"
Let's be honest about the origination of the "refugee" situation: In 1948, Israel offered all of these residents full citizenship in the new state. Declining, they hoofed it over the borders, expecting to take up residence in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. amidst their Islamic brethren. When Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and others made it clear that they would NOT offer citizenship to Palestinians, they also began to strengthen the rhetoric machine against Israel and convinced the Palestinians that they were refugees who had been removed from their land. If Palestinians had, at any point in history, been willing to deal with Israel, they would probably already enjoy a homeland of their own.

The fact is that a Palestinian homeland isn't much of a solution for Palestinians, hence why they have continually rejected the various offers. They would watch all the scarce resources (that they have barely been able to enjoy throughout their "refugeehood") dry up entirely. Islamic nations only support Palestinians in matters of war with Israel. When it comes to humanitarian aid, the entire Islamic world quietly slinks away.

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to call such a population dynamic "refugees". And that's coming from someone who fundamentally agrees with your assertion that the murder of civilians in Gaza isn't really a "winning" position. But let's not play the "Poor Little Old..." game with a group of people who have essentially prolonged their persecution as long as possible, frequently rejecting situations which would benefit their lives and lifestyles at the expense of ideological hatred.
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Old 01-12-2009, 01:13 PM   #34
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Yeah, bitchin' about Israel that they have killed so many and hamas only a few Israeli's...

If you take your women and whildren as a shield for enemy attacks in a time of war, then you really have to be retarded. No question about it.

Someone told me that it is understandable that muslims don't care to do that since the quran states that women and children don't mean a lot. In fact he showed me a part that definately is straightforward about this.

I hope they wipe out all hamas militants so all Israeli's and palestinians will be able to live in peace!

Go Israel!
Vyasa --

please quote in the quran where it mentions about women and children dont mean alot.

i dont dispute or agree - i am just wondering.
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Old 01-12-2009, 02:34 PM   #35
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@arjuna: from Wikipedia:

Additionally, the war created about 750,000 Palestinian refugees who had lived inside Israel's borders and were forcibly removed from their homes and land by the Israeli Army. [...]
In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (these were eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands, and to repatriate 100,000 refugees (about 15% of those who had fled)

Note the the refugees were displaced by the Israeli Army. And that only 15 percent were invited back. So I think its fair to describe the Gazans as refugees.

@Lokesanna Israel has continued building settlements in the West Bank - try to understand, they are taking some of the best land, evicting the Arabs there and building Jewish housing tracts. Surrounding them with barbed wire. Palestinians are being cut off from their olive orchards and livelihoods.

These people are going to have to live side by side and everyone knows the deal - Israel must dismantle (most) of the settlements and return to the '67 borders. Some Palestinians must be allowed to return - the rest must be compensated with $. Palestinians must forswear violence and recognize Israel. Israel plus international partners must undertake a "Marshall Plan" in the territories - creating economic opportunity. Joint security arrangements must be undertaken.

The problem is that the political will to make a deal does not exist on either side. Given that the US basically funds the Israeli AND Egyptian Armies (>15billion/year) we can hope that Obama and Clinton will impose a peace on Israel/Palestine...
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:31 PM   #36
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Someone told me that it is understandable that muslims don't care to do that since the quran states that women and children don't mean a lot. In fact he showed me a part that definately is straightforward about this.
Gentlemen, please dont fall into the trap of selectively quoting religious texts to make a point that reinforces predjudice without the nuance or context. (JBM, perhaps this is the point you're making?)

We're talking about other cultures here. Best to have an open mind on such aspects that are really not relivent here.

Islamic fundamentalists militants have a long record of brutally targeting innocents of ALL religions, gender, and ages.
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:36 PM   #37
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The only 'ideology' that is worth talking about is peace and no more killings. And food and homes for everyone, no matter who they are or what they believe in.
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:39 PM   #38
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(JBM, perhaps this is the point you're making?)
it would have been made eventually for sure
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Old 01-12-2009, 05:40 PM   #39
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@arjuna: from Wikipedia:

Additionally, the war created about 750,000 Palestinian refugees who had lived inside Israel's borders and were forcibly removed from their homes and land by the Israeli Army. [...]
In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (these were eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands, and to repatriate 100,000 refugees (about 15% of those who had fled)

Note the the refugees were displaced by the Israeli Army. And that only 15 percent were invited back. So I think its fair to describe the Gazans as refugees.
This is a vastly debated topic. This quote from Wikipedia represents one side of the argument. The Israeli army has always maintained that the Palestinians were not forced out but rather left at the suggestion of their own leaders who had promised a swift victory over Israel. While this quote from Wiki might make it seem cut and dry, it's anything but that.

And that's not even taking into account the Arabic response to the "Palestinian Refugee" problem. Here's what Syrian Prime Minister, Khalid al-Azm, wrote in his 1973 memoirs (from the Wikipedia article on "palestinian refugee", which I suggest you read for a less one-sided approach to the issue); bold emphasis mine:

Quote:
Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees [...] while it is we who made them leave. [...] We brought disaster upon [...] Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave. [...] We have rendered them dispossessed. [...] We have accustomed them to begging. [...] We have participated in lowering their moral and social level. [...] Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon [...] men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes.
Regardless, what is not debated is that no Palestinian was ejected from Israel prior to the attacks that began the War of Independence, a war which Israel never would have had to fight had they not been attacked. That would make the vast majority of Palestinians, in support of the Arab attacks, enemy combatants on foreign land, not refugees. Notice that even in the article you quoted, it's not the Israeli military per se which precipitated the Palestinian refugee situation, but rather as a result of the war. Who started that war again? What was the reason?
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Old 01-12-2009, 06:34 PM   #40
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@arjuna - sure there are two sides to the story - I guess in the end I would lay the blame on the British - perhaps partitioning former colonies is not a great plan for peace... And yes, Arab anti-Semitism is a real historical wrong etc etc etc.

But we have to look at the facts on the ground - Israel was the victor - expulsion of Arabs really was one political aim of the Yishuv - sensible enough perhaps and retaliatory expusions of Jews from the Arab world is a reality too.

So now there are these million + in Gaza - most of them not alive in '48. And an Israeli population in the West Back expanding every year. What is the end game? The Gazans can't be all killed. And they won't be pacified by violence. A just accommodation needs to be reached. Arguments about who started it, who'se to blame miss the *present* injustice, in which hopeless, stateless Palestinian civilians, living in relatively crappy conditions, are now being mowed down in significant numbers (by weaponry paid for by US taxpayers btw).

My own preference is now outside the realm of possibility because of the bitterness of the last decade. I would have liked to see a single multi-cultural state - something like Canada. I don't believe a Palestinian State governing the remaining scraps of land is viable. And ultimately I think a "Jewish" state is an anachronism and maybe not viable for demographic reasons. My favorite suggestion that Israel become a secular Hebrew state and seek to integrate Israeli Arabs on that basis. but that's another argument...
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