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Old 09-10-2017, 07:02 AM   #41
Jack Winter
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Don't know if it's been mentioned, but being able to put reaper on a usb drive and run your personally configured version on any system is very refreshing. Non DRM protected plugin travel with it, and DRM protected plugins that don't travel can be installed on the host systems.

Seems that as long as one stays with VST plugins, the projects are even cross platform compatible, but as I haven't done extensive testing I won't put my hand in the fire on this one.
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Old 09-10-2017, 07:38 AM   #42
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Yes, that was my point as well. By making bad outsourcing decisions Avid has screwed up the PT software so badly that doing a large installation with PT is more risky than taking a chance on a company that is small, but focused. Right now the PT software is a train wreck.

And as you also said, in addition, development is moving forward at a snail's pace.


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...

I think the argument isn't so much against that thinking but more that Avid has turned unprofessional and unreliable. And in fact more so than the team prone to bicycle accidents.
...
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:41 AM   #43
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Reaper is the only choice for the long haul where you're not likely to find yourself in trouble because of corporate hijinks.

Once Avid is gone the vacuum will be filled, but not necessarily with the wisest option.

Once filled whoever fills it - aside from Reaper - are likely to try to quickly consolidate their position "somehow".

That "somehow" will be expensive or a hassle, or both.


1) Do you like how Itunes works?
2) Do you like forced Windows updates?
3) Do you like the Fun New Norm, Adobe's trend setting "subscription model"?

If you answered no to any of those 3, Reaper is your only future.
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:48 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Don't know if it's been mentioned, but being able to put reaper on a usb drive and run your personally configured version on any system is very refreshing. Non DRM protected plugin travel with it, and DRM protected plugins that don't travel can be installed on the host systems.
yes this is a very convenient thing, plus the settings is a common text config file, so can be adjusted without need to start the software (which helps a LOT when problems arise)

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Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
1) Do you like how Itunes works?
2) Do you like forced Windows updates?
3) Do you like the Fun New Norm, Adobe's trend setting "subscription model"?

If you answered no to any of those 3, Reaper is your only future.
companies massively jumping (or should I say falling?) into clouds is a very unfortunate in my opinion, sure there are pros and cons of anything, but this just doesn't work,
been at Adobe conference, took place at cinema complex, where lack of connectivity basically showed how creative cloud becomes useless piece of sh!t as soon as internet connection goes off,
windows updates are another major problem (mainly due to the fact windows itself is designed non-reliably, so in case of basically any failure, system becomes unbootable), also idle state detection mechanisms obviously do not work well yet (tested various download/network/render/batch tasks, windows 10 just carelessly reboots),
the very appealing thing about Reaper is it doesn't need any network access for stable long-term reliable operation (compared to for ex. Cakewalk Sonar, which used to be my DAW before introduction of subscription licensing system, where at initial stages the lack of connectivity switched software into demo mode which meant saving became disabled) - again internet being cause no.1 source for "problems" (be it malware or any other undesired system alteration), most studios crucial workstations are not tied to outer network at all
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:39 AM   #45
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At Reapers price every professional should own a copy in addition to whatever else they own and use !

Remember a few years back the great story about UAD at Musikmessesome spotted in a press photo using an eval copy of Reaper ?

Turns out there was a problem with whatever they were supposed to be using, likely PT, and they said "Yeah, thank goodness for Reaper, saved our butts, got us out of a jam"

Everyone should own a copy !

As far as PT and its resistance to attacks from contenders like Nuendo, indeed, as others are saying, times, they may be a changing.

Had a look at Avid's stock price lately ?

Read any of the finance scandal rags about the Avid management team's antics of the last few years ?

Reaper's tight size, stability, portable install, customization, etc. are all definite plusses for Reaper consideration.

As far as control surface lack of support, agree, working, please wait...

Oh, and I sincerely hope they NEVER get a marketing department to wine and dine potential customers as was suggested earlier, and also hope they never get a customer service desk, this it it already
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:56 AM   #46
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I ,for one, am uncomfortable thinking, let alone talking about bicycle accidents as I truly wish our developers long (and happy and fulfilled) life. But REAPER will outlive us all won't it, in the way that all great art and science does. And I would expect that the intellectual property rights of REAPER would remain as asset with value that could (depending on the wishes of its owner) be exploited in due course.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:27 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
1) Do you like how Itunes works?
2) Do you like forced Windows updates?
3) Do you like the Fun New Norm, Adobe's trend setting "subscription model"?

If you answered no to any of those 3, Reaper is your only future.
I'm beginning to accept the subscription model in _some_ scenarios, being that it (can) better support a long-term development shop. Roland's idea that you own some pieces after a time has promise (not a comment on the product itself, just the idea).

E.g. if Native Instruments offered Komplete 'Eternity' at $20/month, it would be mighty tempting...
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:42 PM   #48
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A (non-pro) Reaper subscription is just some $60 for at least two years .

-Michael
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Old 09-13-2017, 01:13 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by cassembler View Post
I'm beginning to accept the subscription model in _some_ scenarios, being that it (can) better support a long-term development shop. Roland's idea that you own some pieces after a time has promise (not a comment on the product itself, just the idea).

E.g. if Native Instruments offered Komplete 'Eternity' at $20/month, it would be mighty tempting...
I'm strongly against subscription the way for ex. Adobe does, "you stop paying, program refuses to work", basically I was really happy to find a replacement for Illustrator and Photoshop (Affinity Designer and Photo respectively),
compared to that for ex. AVID, "you stop paying, no more updates or support" at least lets users continue working with whatever projects they have, although further issues may arise
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:53 AM   #50
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The subscription model combined with willfully treating software installs as disposable and even going so far as to not even clone your OS installs, treating them as disposable too is the epitome of insanity to me.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:16 AM   #51
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"Welcome to the mad-house", then
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:20 AM   #52
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Obviously Reaper includes a permanent license. There are two types of PT subscription plans. One includes a permanent license, and you are subscribing to updates and a support plan for a period of time. The other is a monthly subscription that stops working when you stop paying. When people refer to a subscription plan most people are talking about the second type in which the software expires.

But you're right, in many ways a Reaper license is very much like the first type. You do get updates up to a particular version instead of for a particular period of time.

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A (non-pro) Reaper subscription is just some $60 for at least two years .

-Michael
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:28 AM   #53
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Adding to the insanity is that over the course of a subscription OS support can change and previously supported OS's can be dropped. Plus, iLok support and plugins.

I marvel at the lengths PT users go to in order to assure a clean install. First, it is customary to do a full system backup. Then in some cases an update might require an OS update, an iLok manager update, completely re-installing all plugins with new versions of certain plugins (some AAX plugins caused problems as PT updates were released), installing the PT software, removing their buggy application manager, and then removing the problematic cloud support. Any of those steps can cause a problem and may need to be debugged, in various combinations.

PT users consider that normal. I think it is something worse than insane. Typically it takes me 15 seconds to update Reaper.

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The subscription model combined with willfully treating software installs as disposable and even going so far as to not even clone your OS installs, treating them as disposable too is the epitome of insanity to me.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:17 AM   #54
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Quote:
I'm strongly against subscription the way for ex. Adobe does, "you stop paying, program refuses to work", basically I was really happy to find a replacement for Illustrator and Photoshop (Affinity Designer and Photo respectively),
I've had an Adobe subscription for several years now, and it has been a far better experience than the previous model. Not to mention I can use it across 5 machines IIRC, I always have the very latest versions and so on at an overall cost that is far less than before. I feared it would be bad, but in reality, I'm fine with it after trying it.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:29 PM   #55
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Going back to OP topic though, I do think Reaper is a very strong candidate for large-scale, IT-style deployment. If you can crack the nut of plugin licenses, you could pretty easily deploy it to hundreds of machines* and ensure a very consistent experience with them (i.e. Group Policy replicates preferences & other template files, regardless of which user logs in where).

(* Properly licensing Reaper as well, of course, but at least no dongles will be required).
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:46 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Pinknoise View Post
Ubisoft and Guitar Hero or Rockband cant remember the company's name switched to Reaper from Protools. Reasons are they are making a lots of installations for new employees or reinstalling often. At the speed its done with Reaper its understandable why.
Also batch exports with auto naming was a big thing for those companies.
choice of the individuals working there, not the choice of the company. An audio team for a game will use many different tools for different tasks.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:00 AM   #57
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Going back to OP topic though, I do think Reaper is a very strong candidate for large-scale, IT-style deployment. If you can crack the nut of plugin licenses, you could pretty easily deploy it to hundreds of machines* and ensure a very consistent experience with them (i.e. Group Policy replicates preferences & other template files, regardless of which user logs in where).

(* Properly licensing Reaper as well, of course, but at least no dongles will be required).
This makes very sense for schools at least
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:44 PM   #58
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I own my copy of Photoshop.
I own my copy of Fruity Loops, upgraded for life.
I own Reaper.

I will not do a subscription model.
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:01 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by cassembler View Post
Going back to OP topic though, I do think Reaper is a very strong candidate for large-scale, IT-style deployment. If you can crack the nut of plugin licenses, you could pretty easily deploy it to hundreds of machines* and ensure a very consistent experience with them (i.e. Group Policy replicates preferences & other template files, regardless of which user logs in where).

(* Properly licensing Reaper as well, of course, but at least no dongles will be required).
this could be pretty much the dealbreaker, convenience to manage DAWs globally, plus consistent yet relatively individual/customizable experience workspace either user-based or machine-based

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I own my copy of Photoshop.
I own my copy of Fruity Loops, upgraded for life.
I own Reaper.

I will not do a subscription model.
Photoshop CS6? you might take a look at Affinity Photo as a worthy one-time-purchase alternative
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:12 AM   #60
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As far as PT and its resistance to attacks from contenders like Nuendo, indeed, as others are saying, times, they may be a changing.

Had a look at Avid's stock price lately ?

Read any of the finance scandal rags about the Avid management team's antics of the last few years ?
I don't see much traction for Nuendo - I know that they are trying to target the post-prod market, but having to open an edit window every time you want to move some ADR dialogue or a sound FX (something one has to do five-to-ten-thousand times in your average movie) makes it a non-starter for most users.

The problems Avid faces are totally self-inflicted and totally beyond their ability to cope. Everywhere they look, their market position is already undermined and unsustainable. All that is inevitable, when a company blows $1.2bn on M&As and sells them all off for under $100m, gives the CEO nearly $4m p.a. and the whole executive suite double figure millions, when the whole company is not worth $200m and in the teeth of all those problems and cash shortages, buys a total basket case (Orad) for a bonkers $60m for what was in essence 1999 technology (virtual sets and blue-screen tech) and then treats the Orad employees (allegedly) with contempt, so that most key engineers leave - and then compounds that litany of mistakes with some of the most dreadful after-sales and support service I have witnessed anywhere, a muddled product range and worst of all, a total lack of innovation for years and years, as a direct result of trying to get R&D on the cheap by going to 3rd party developers in the Ukraine and then in Poland.

As for the share price - $4.30 as I write and leaping about between $4.20 and $4.50, depending on whether the institutional holders are entering the market to protect the price or not.

These are the silly games, public companies have to play!

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I sincerely hope they NEVER get a marketing department
A stand at a fair can cost hundreds of thousands (stand build, stand space, travel, hotels, etc.) magazine and on-line advertising even more. Product placement, educational promos and other marketing exercises, such as turnkey installations for key players for free or at a loss, even more. Then there is dealer mark-up and point-of-sale promotions and sales aids, such as fancy packaging, sexy instruction booklet and a DVD full of useless samples.

Most of the costs for audio SW are marketing.

Last edited by The Byre; 09-20-2017 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:43 AM   #61
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With all of your comments about Avid blunders, you left out a couple of huge mistakes that have greatly affected PT development and stability.

Reportedly they outsourced the software development team not once, but twice, over the last few years. It was reported that they partnered with a group in the Ukraine for PT 11, but some time after that they decided to use a group in Poland.

As a former Software Engineer I don't think it's possible to overestimate the problems caused by swapping out a development team on a very sophisticated and technical product not once, but twice. And current PT development has all the symptoms one would expect from doing it. Very slow development progress as the new team learns the codebase, and a litany of crazy, inexplicable bugs caused by not knowing the existing code well enough.


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Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
I don't see much traction for Nuendo - I know that they are trying to target the post-prod market, but having to open an edit window every time you want to move some ADR dialogue or a sound FX (something one has to do five-to-ten-thousand times in your average movie) makes it a non-starter for most users.

The problems Avid faces are totally self-inflicted and totally beyond their ability to cope. Everywhere they look, their market position is already undermined and unsustainable. All that is inevitable, when a company blows $1.2bn on M&As and sells them all off for under $100m, gives the CEO nearly $4m p.a. and the whole executive suite double figure millions, when the whole company is not worth $200m and in the teeth of all those problems and cash shortages, buys a total basket case (Orad) for a bonkers $60m for what was in essence 1999 technology (virtual sets and blue-screen tech) and then treats the Orad employees (allegedly) with contempt, so that most key engineers leave - and then compounds that litany of mistakes with some of the most dreadful after-sales and support service I have witnessed anywhere, a muddled product range and worst of all, a total lack of innovation for years and years, as a direct result of trying to get R&D on the cheap by going to 3rd party developers in the Ukraine and then in Poland.

As for the share price - $4.30 as I write and leaping about between $4.20 and $4.50, depending on whether the institutional holders are entering the market to protect the price or not.

These are the silly games, public companies have to play!


A stand at a fair can cost hundreds of thousands (stand build, stand space, travel, hotels, etc.) magazine and on-line advertising even more. Product placement, educational promos and other marketing exercises, such as turnkey installations for key players for free or at a loss, even more. Then there is dealer mark-up and point-of-sale promotions and sales aids, such as fancy packaging, sexy instruction booklet and a DVD full of useless samples.

Most of the costs for audio SW are marketing.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:12 AM   #62
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With all of your comments about Avid blunders, you left out a couple of huge mistakes that have greatly affected PT development and stability.

Reportedly they outsourced the software development team not once, but twice, over the last few years. It was reported that they partnered with a group in the Ukraine for PT 11, but some time after that they decided to use a group in Poland.

As a former Software Engineer I don't think it's possible to overestimate the problems caused by swapping out a development team on a very sophisticated and technical product not once, but twice. And current PT development has all the symptoms one would expect from doing it. Very slow development progress as the new team learns the codebase, and a litany of crazy, inexplicable bugs caused by not knowing the existing code well enough.
I absolutely agree and I merely glossed over all their mistakes and that one in particular with the words "trying to get R&D on the cheap by going to 3rd party developers in the Ukraine and then in Poland."

Each and every one of their mistakes are real textbook examples. If the original concept and marketing strategies of Avid, set up by Bill Warner had not been so brilliant and perfect for future growth and development, the company would have failed about ten years ago. David Krall in particular, went on a mad-cap adventure of buying every AV company he could find, regardless of price and suitability. Pinnacle, SoftImage, M-Audio - you name 'em and he bought 'em. He spread that company as thin as soup in a Victorian orphanage!

Avid blew $1.2bn in cash and share-swaps and the share price sank from $60+ to $8+ over four years and Krall was shown the door.

What followed was a classic case of rearranging the deckchairs. Instead of doing a Steve Jobs business 101 (i.e. streamlining the company, focusing on profitable lines, and above all, innovating massively their core products Media Composer and PT and introducing new products) the board insisted on cutting costs. When that just resulted in falling sales, CEO Greenfield was forced into a fire-sale of assets and Pinnacle and M-Audio were dumped for just $17m.

But then strangely, he persuaded the board to let him buy Euphonix - another commercial basket case and a prime example of yesterday's technology.

When his ineptitude became too obvious, as the whole Ukrainian adventure blew up in his face, he was replaced by the current CEO, Hernandez, who rushed out to buy Orad and moved R&D to Poland. You only have to read the entries on Glassdoor to realise what staff thought of those moves and the wholesale redundancies that came with them. If that isn't enough, a chat to some Orad engineers at the time would tell you that this was a marriage made in hell.

All of Avid's IP (yes, everything, all patents, names, rights, software, the lot!) is now in the hands of its main creditor, Cerberus Capital Management, in exchange for a $200m loan. That is about the same value as the market cap of the whole company. The covenants on that loan require Hernandez to maintain profit and cash flow and the last few sets of figures would indicate that he is going to fail to fulfil the conditions of those covenants sooner or later.

He reached out to a Chinese company for cash, in exchange for exclusive distribution rights to China, but that deal fell through, so he needs to find another money-tree really soon!

All sorts of companies are circling, wondering if and when Avid is about to fail and if there will be a fire-sale of assets, if Cerberus tries to get its money back. SSL, Samsung, Uli Behringer, Autodesk, Yamaha, BlackMagic-Design, In-Music, Adobe, Sony and many others, have all been maintaining a close watch on Avid - but one thing stands out. Nobody wants the company. They don't even want the software.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:28 AM   #63
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That about sums it up. A bit like Melissa Mayer ran Yahoo to the bottom. She's better tho
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:25 AM   #64
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It will be interesting to see what happens to Avid. Their stock is trading at 4.46 as I type this, so the market appears to know they are struggling.

IMO, all of this presents a very strong argument against spending a lot of money on a new large scale deployment of PT. There is no way to know what will happen to the company and the software over the next few years. One thing is for sure, PT is a mess right now.

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I absolutely agree and I merely glossed over all their mistakes and that one in particular with the words "trying to get R&D on the cheap by going to 3rd party developers in the Ukraine and then in Poland."

Each and every one of their mistakes are real textbook examples. If the original concept and marketing strategies of Avid, set up by Bill Warner had not been so brilliant and perfect for future growth and development, the company would have failed about ten years ago. David Krall in particular, went on a mad-cap adventure of buying every AV company he could find, regardless of price and suitability. Pinnacle, SoftImage, M-Audio - you name 'em and he bought 'em. He spread that company as thin as soup in a Victorian orphanage!

Avid blew $1.2bn in cash and share-swaps and the share price sank from $60+ to $8+ over four years and Krall was shown the door.

What followed was a classic case of rearranging the deckchairs. Instead of doing a Steve Jobs business 101 (i.e. streamlining the company, focusing on profitable lines, and above all, innovating massively their core products Media Composer and PT and introducing new products) the board insisted on cutting costs. When that just resulted in falling sales, CEO Greenfield was forced into a fire-sale of assets and Pinnacle and M-Audio were dumped for just $17m.

But then strangely, he persuaded the board to let him buy Euphonix - another commercial basket case and a prime example of yesterday's technology.

When his ineptitude became too obvious, as the whole Ukrainian adventure blew up in his face, he was replaced by the current CEO, Hernandez, who rushed out to buy Orad and moved R&D to Poland. You only have to read the entries on Glassdoor to realise what staff thought of those moves and the wholesale redundancies that came with them. If that isn't enough, a chat to some Orad engineers at the time would tell you that this was a marriage made in hell.

All of Avid's IP (yes, everything, all patents, names, rights, software, the lot!) is now in the hands of its main creditor, Cerberus Capital Management, in exchange for a $200m loan. That is about the same value as the market cap of the whole company. The covenants on that loan require Hernandez to maintain profit and cash flow and the last few sets of figures would indicate that he is going to fail to fulfil the conditions of those covenants sooner or later.

He reached out to a Chinese company for cash, in exchange for exclusive distribution rights to China, but that deal fell through, so he needs to find another money-tree really soon!

All sorts of companies are circling, wondering if and when Avid is about to fail and if there will be a fire-sale of assets, if Cerberus tries to get its money back. SSL, Samsung, Uli Behringer, Autodesk, Yamaha, BlackMagic-Design, In-Music, Adobe, Sony and many others, have all been maintaining a close watch on Avid - but one thing stands out. Nobody wants the company. They don't even want the software.
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Old 09-22-2017, 02:47 AM   #65
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There is no way to know what will happen to the company and the software over the next few years.
Unless the company changes tack and the ship turns about and sails in a completely different direction (and the institutional investors are just not prepared to allow that to happen) my back-of-envelope calculations give Avid two years max. That is, unless a new money tree can be found!

The real problem that infuriates many of those working in TV, film and music, is that this state-of-affairs is causing a real log-jam in the industry. We can't move forward, because the large studios require PT and MC in their contracts, so that everybody is singing from the same hymn-sheet and kids coming out of the colleges are all learning on Avid kit, as Bill Warner started this brilliant marketing ploy of pushing Avid into the colleges at knock-down prices or for free.

So we are now all forced to use SW that causes glitches when it tries to export in some formats (e.g. NTSC to PAL) is too expensive for the home market in its fullest version and is overall, painfully slow.

None of the alternatives tick all the boxes. And every other manufacturer, as well as Avid, is still tied up with this antiquated idea that SW has to be either for audio or for video.

The other aspect of this dilemma (if I may go back to the original topic!) is that the large-scale deployment market requires systems that work. No broadcaster or post production facility with multiple desks to kit-out is going to faff about with bags of bits. Install this, assign that to this, configure those things there - none of that is going to happen in any larger studio or broadcaster.

They want one telephone call to one supplier, one price and one box that works! They want and need to know who they can sue, if that box fails. They need a help line and a legal partner in their jurisdiction. That means systems houses around the World and a completely different attitude to hardware integration to the one that Cockos/Reaper has at the moment. It also means integrating the three 3D sound formats and Dolby Atmos in particular.

That is (IMO) where Blackmagic-Design may be about to get things right, as it has systems houses across the World, carrying their products and able to provide turnkey installations and supply ready-to-roll boxes.

Reaper may be the easiest to use and the most comprehensive audio package out there, but it is something that will be used as an addition to a package like DaVinci-Resolve with integrated hardware (assuming that BMD make good on their promises!)

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Old 09-23-2017, 02:01 AM   #66
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Default I love REAPER but I need Pro Tools

This is all interesting, I'll submit a real case study here.

I'm employed in a post production studio and we're going to upgrade our audio hardware and software. We always used Pro Tools and - as much as I hate it - we'll still use Pro Tools. Why? Several reasons, not every one technical, not every one a show stopper, but here are some:

- Changing from a proven setup to a new one is a risk, we can't just "try". If we encounter an issue with Pro Tools, we'll blame Pro Tools, if we'd encounter an issue with REAPER, my boss would blame me.

- We use Avid software for video editing and I need to be able to import AAF files. I know Pro Tools deals with that flawlessly. I don't know how well AATranslator would do that. I'd bet *my* money on that, but I can't bet someone else's money.

- We need to send the video out through a Blackmagic device (or a similar solution). No, we can't just attach another monitor, the signal needs to go to other three quite distant rooms. This is the biggest show stopper. It's several years now that this feature has been requested, but REAPER is still unable to do that.

- We need to be able to correct the waveform directly in the DAW (the "pencil" tool in Pro Tools). There is a Lua script for REAPER that allows that, but it's still a minor inconvenience.

- And of course we have all this Pro Tools session we're working on. We work for the advertising, so we have lots of projects at the same time, and some sessions are carried over for years, we can't just archive them and start from scratch. Again, AATranslator could be able to cope with that, but I'm not taking the risk. And all the plugins would be lost anyway.

So, as much as I love REAPER (I use it at home regularly) and hate some Pro Tools' stupid behaviours, I can't choose REAPER for our studio.
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:11 AM   #67
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What would actually happen if Avid goes down ?

Many of us run Protools systems on never-changing systems. How long can those systems still be useful ? Hardware might need to be replaced with components the never-change-system does not suport.

Video editing software needs to support incoming formats. If Media Composer freezes in features and bug fixes, what then ?

Protools will be the dumb bozo rig we have to use AATranslator, Vordio and other stuff for, in order to get from the video editor to the sound editing and mixing room.


Concerning Resolve, how good is the sound editing ? Anyone out there with experience in that ?
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:24 AM   #68
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- And of course we have all this Pro Tools session we're working on. We work for the advertising, so we have lots of projects at the same time, and some sessions are carried over for years, we can't just archive them and start from scratch. Again, AATranslator could be able to cope with that, but I'm not taking the risk. And all the plugins would be lost anyway.
There are times when one needs to make a transition.
In this case it means printing al fx,
and exporting tempo, markers, midi, audio and video.

Not fun, but sometimes it needs to be done.
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:30 AM   #69
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Concerning Resolve, how good is the sound editing ? Anyone out there with experience in that ?
very bad... Fairlight is still in beta mode even the R14 version is finally released, the Fairlight page still has many bugs and lack of features.
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Old 09-23-2017, 05:55 AM   #70
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Just read this thread earlier today, then did some coding and, in that context, had an interesting thought.

As you may know I wrote the EuCon support for Reaper.

In order to achieve stability, the best approach was to rebuild everything if a track was added or deleted.

Unfortunately this turned out to be slow, and while more stable than other approaches, results were less than stellar -- don't remember exactly, but something like 30 seconds to insert a track on a fairly large project (200 tracks or so ?) -- YUCCCH !

So Avid EuCon represents the Avid brand faithfully, slow, clumsy, bloated, unstable.

On the other hand the Reaper philosophy of lean, mean, solid, and totally customizable shines through on the open source control surface integration project I'm working on.

Using exactly the same rebuild from the ground up strategy, inserting/deleting 1000 tracks takes less than a second, and 2000 takes about 3 seconds.

Appropriate comparison of both the software and corporate entities in this context, don't you think ?
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Old 09-23-2017, 07:30 AM   #71
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- Changing from a proven setup to a new one is a risk, we can't just "try". If we encounter an issue with Pro Tools, we'll blame Pro Tools, if we'd encounter an issue with REAPER, my boss would blame me.
Sounds like the most important reason

And it's also very recognisable...
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Old 09-24-2017, 04:29 AM   #72
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Sounds like the most important reason
Actually, I wouldn't say so.

I would take my responsibilities if switching to REAPER were doable. At least we could discuss about that possibility.

I did try REAPER, to test it for a future possible transition. But I soon found that REAPER has no support for the Blackmagic, so my test stopped right there.

_That_ is actually the main problem, I found no viable solution for it. Everything else could be worked out or around (whether it would worth the effort or not is another matter…), I could try AATranslator and see how well it works, and how painful would it be to translate all of our sessions.
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Old 09-24-2017, 09:37 AM   #73
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Video is brand new in REAPER. Don't expect it to be perfect from day one.

These things take time.

We need PT, because of the very simple reason that Those-Who-Know-Nothing always start with the question "Do you have PT?". If you say no, they're gone.

But we're are a very small non-profit, so the scale is entirely different, even if the problem itself is recognisabe.
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Old 09-24-2017, 09:39 AM   #74
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What would actually happen if Avid goes down ?
One of 'those' questions!

That all depends on how it goes down and how Cerberus reacts, as they hold and own all the IP. At the moment, the share price is being supported by the large institutional holders at about $4.35. The 3rd Quarter results will be announced the first week in November and if they disappoint, then that will bring the closure of the company that much closer (depending of course, by how much they disappoint!)

CEO Louis Hernandez has already launched his lifeboat, in the form of private equity investement company Black Dragon Capital, so he will have a gig when the music stops at Avid.

But back to the question - what happens?

Right now, the users of AV systems have the worst of all Worlds, in that the large companies that set the standards (e.g. Disney, public broadcasters, Vivendi) are insisting on Avid formats and for very good reasons. That would be just fine, except that Avid software is just missing too many features that are rapidly becoming 'must-haves' like automated conformation of ADR.

(Which brings me to the little English SW company FX-Home that makes the package called HitFilm. It has auto-conform of audio and many other seriously kewl features, such as match-move and a host of good plugins for video. Check it out here - https://hitfilm.com/express and https://hitfilm.com/pro for the full version, costing £308 or $350. The tools in HitFilm Pro seriously outclass everything except Premier with AE and a full CS subscription from Adobe.)

So right now, pro users are right in the middle of the log-jam. The big contractors are insisting on Avid SW for reasons of compatibility and compliance, but that means using SW that does not have tools that we are now beginning to take for granted in other SW packages and that can save time and large sums of money.

One way out of the log-jam would be for Avid to fail, Cerberus to hold that fire-sale and Adobe to buy the ProTools name and build something better that becomes part of the CS bundle. (I spoke to some Adobe engineers a while back and they were adamant that they would find it easier to start from scratch, rather than try to untangle the results of so much bodge-it-and-scarper code!)

Another way out of the log-jam, would be for Avid to just fail and go away! That would leave us with plenty of options for film/video and for audio. And more importantly, what there is, will all talk to one-another. Bad news for 'Runaway's' AA-Translator, but good news for the industry! I regard this option as unlikely, as someone, somewhere is bound to buy the IP and relaunch it, hoping to cash in on their pro status. (Though WordPerfect was once the standard word processing SW, but being sold to Corel meant that it vanished without trace!)

Yet another log-jam buster could be for Avid to rescue itself, by selling off ProTools and all the other audio lines, to generate enough cash to revamp Media Composer and its other video products. That means that a dedicated audio company like The Music Group (Behringer) would be the obvious purchaser. The only problem with that scenario, is that the market cap of Avid's audio division is just $70m and it would require a green light from Cerberus, who now own the rights. The market value however, may be considerably higher, though one is tempted to ask, for how much longer!

SW falls in value and it does so rapidly. The longer it takes for Avid to either fail or sort itself out, the less there will be of it to sort!

For Cerberus, there is a real danger that, having un-trousered $200m, they are left holding a baby that is worth much less than that figure.
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Old 09-25-2017, 04:52 AM   #75
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Concerning Resolve, how good is the sound editing ? Anyone out there with experience in that ?
Quote:
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very bad... Fairlight is still in beta mode even the R14 version is finally released, the Fairlight page still has many bugs and lack of features.
I downloaded DVR 14 based after reading the hype on these pages:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/pro...avinciresolve/

https://library.creativecow.net/arti...irlight&page=1

The fact is it is unbelievably bad. Complete rubbish. Crashes after 10 seconds with just one track of video and one audio.

BTW I have been using PT 12.6 lately and was suprised that it can now run on mac osx concurrently with REAPER, and amazingly it can also offline bounce a mix as fast as REAPER.

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Old 09-25-2017, 05:35 AM   #76
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Reaper may be the easiest to use and the most comprehensive audio package out there, but it is something that will be used as an addition to a package like DaVinci-Resolve with integrated hardware (assuming that BMD make good on their promises!)
and that is perfectly fine, perhaps I put my original post a bit too utopistic, obviously a huge company needs more than one software, but if let's say Reaper would become "no.2" (aside from PT which won't be upgraded anymore) then it's still a win-win imo

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This is all interesting, I'll submit a real case study here.

- Changing from a proven setup to a new one is a risk, we can't just "try". If we encounter an issue with Pro Tools, we'll blame Pro Tools, if we'd encounter an issue with REAPER, my boss would blame me.
well, there are issues with ProTools, so if there will be "less" problems encountered with anything else, then it's good to go,
oh and nowadays it's modern bosses get fired at faster pace than employees, so not a big issue

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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Just read this thread earlier today, then did some coding and, in that context, had an interesting thought.

As you may know I wrote the EuCon support for Reaper.

On the other hand the Reaper philosophy of lean, mean, solid, and totally customizable shines through on the open source control surface integration project I'm working on.

Appropriate comparison of both the software and corporate entities in this context, don't you think ?
I'd say it really comes down to "support" of the added features and goodies, because there are things we cannot influence, such as slight OS architecture change, minor DAW adjustment, new OS version release or whateversomething, which may require imminent update of current controller setup, and this always drags things down to age...

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We need PT, because of the very simple reason that Those-Who-Know-Nothing always start with the question "Do you have PT?". If you say no, they're gone.
but what if people come up with "hello, we have project recorded in trial of Reaper, or bounced individual tracks" (because whatever occassion happened Reaper was only DAW free to go, downloadable via miserable 3G connection thanks to remarkably small install filesize, compatible with whatever computer + OS + audio interface they had on-the-go) and you say "we can load your Reaper project here in a second right away", that is something which may happen more and more often with non-professionals slowly peering into audio world, thanks to very cost-effective solutions boom nowadays

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(Which brings me to the little English SW company FX-Home that makes the package called HitFilm. It has auto-conform of audio and many other seriously kewl features, such as match-move and a host of good plugins for video. Check it out here - https://hitfilm.com/express and https://hitfilm.com/pro for the full version, costing £308 or $350. The tools in HitFilm Pro seriously outclass everything except Premier with AE and a full CS subscription from Adobe.)

So right now, pro users are right in the middle of the log-jam. The big contractors are insisting on Avid SW for reasons of compatibility and compliance, but that means using SW that does not have tools that we are now beginning to take for granted in other SW packages and that can save time and large sums of money.

For Cerberus, there is a real danger that, having un-trousered $200m, they are left holding a baby that is worth much less than that figure.
I really liked HitFilm Express and Ignite Express for free, speaking of their Pro versions, those are obviously targeting Adobe Premiere Pro and After Effects, quite successfully but it may take some more time to finetune things up,
together with Affinity Designer and Photo, those are my go-to solutions when my patience with Adobe is definitely gone (probably once next annual subscription payment time comes up),
I'd say AVID must be in situation to slowly decide, whether to keep wasting more money, or just start cutting their parts off, speaking of ProTools, MediaComposer, Sibelius etc., honestly they could just keep supporting the current latest version, and then just vanish all those products, come up with something new from scratch instead, maybe hire some entirely new team of capable people and just "start again" before they run out of money (btw it's what Adobe, Microsoft and other huge companies should already be doing if they want to survive without continuously resurrecting their 20-year old software solutions)
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:19 AM   #77
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I downloaded DVR 14 based after reading the hype on these pages:
..
The fact is it is unbelievably bad. Complete rubbish. Crashes after 10 seconds with just one track of video and one audio.

BTW I have been using PT 12.6 lately and was suprised that it can now run on mac osx concurrently with REAPER, and amazingly it can also offline bounce a mix as fast as REAPER.
Well, on my lowly 2009 Mac Pro I am currently running an identical 96 track session with multiple video tracks (H.264 footage @ 1920x1080 24fps) in Resolve 14 and Reaper 5.50 simultaneously without issue and without system slow down.

Not a single crash with the Release version of Resolve. Both systems are pretty efficient.

Simple zoom in and out within Resolve with Reaper running in the background:


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Old 09-25-2017, 10:24 AM   #78
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I downloaded DVR 14 based after reading the hype on these pages:

The fact is it is unbelievably bad. Complete rubbish. Crashes after 10 seconds with just one track of video and one audio.
I think you may have been using an earlier beta version.
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Well, on my lowly 2009 Mac Pro I am currently running an identical 96 track session with multiple video tracks (H.264 footage @ 1920x1080 24fps) in Resolve 14 and Reaper 5.50 simultaneously without issue and without system slow down.

Not a single crash with the Release version of Resolve. Both systems are pretty efficient.
That ties in with most people's experience of the release version.

I shall be watching the render card release!

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I really liked HitFilm Express and Ignite Express for free, speaking of their Pro versions, those are obviously targeting Adobe Premiere Pro and After Effects, quite successfully but it may take some more time to finetune things up
That is the sort of company that Cockos and JF ought to be talking to. If the log-jam of major SW players failing to deliver on upgrades and features, whilst asking for more money every month, is to be bust open, the small players like Cockos and FX-Home have to start talking to one another.
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Old 09-25-2017, 11:26 AM   #79
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- We need to send the video out through a Blackmagic device (or a similar solution). No, we can't just attach another monitor, the signal needs to go to other three quite distant rooms. This is the biggest show stopper.
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Actually, I wouldn't say so.

...But I soon found that REAPER has no support for the Blackmagic, so my test stopped right there.

_That_ is actually the main problem...
I know I'm probably not gonna convince you/you're employer to switch the whole facility over to Reaper, but if this is really the biggest thing stopping you, there are a few solutions that should work just fine.

You could use a third party video playback app that does support the black magic and slave it to Reaper via MTC/MMC. There are a couple apps that are built for this very purpose. Check out Chaingang from Humatic or Video Slave from Non-lethal application

Alternatively you could bypass the Blackmagic device and use an HDMI or DVI distribution amp to send one of your computer's graphics card outputs to multiple displays at once (this is what we do at my studio)
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:15 AM   #80
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nowadays it's modern bosses get fired at faster pace than employees, so not a big issue
My boss owns the studio, I doubt he'll fire himself anytime soon (And to be honest, he's a good boss, I certainly had worse).

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You could use a third party video playback app that does support the black magic and slave it to Reaper via MTC/MMC. There are a couple apps that are built for this very purpose. Check out Chaingang from Humatic or Video Slave from Non-lethal application
We often have dozens of different short videos in the timeline and we need to be able to jump between them easily. I'd expect that doing this with an external player is going to be a hassle, but I'll check the Video Slave demo version.
Chaingang appears to be dead, by the way.

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Alternatively you could bypass the Blackmagic device and use an HDMI or DVI distribution amp to send one of your computer's graphics card outputs to multiple displays at once
This could be something to look into. We'd need some converters along the way, but maybe it could actually be the best solution.

At this point we can't really avoid to upgrade staying with Pro Tools, but when the new hardware will be in place, I'll definitely try to bring REAPER to be an alternative/back up solution.

Thanks for the input!

Now, if only sample-level waveform editing would be properly implemented… but this is for another thread I suppose.
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