Old 05-18-2016, 02:32 PM   #81
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I've worked with the new notation editor for several hours now and am very happy with it. With continued improvement, I'll finally be able to retire MuseScore. I'm one customer who definitely needs a notation editor of some kind, so this is a banner day.

Most of my concerns have been addressed in this thread. One thing I'd like to see is the ability to visually "unlink" the piano roll and notation views.

As it stands (or maybe I've missed something?), the notation editor requires everything to be exactly on-beat in order to produce a readable score, meaning the result has overly rigid timing.

So unlinking the views would mean you could produce a proper-looking score for a MIDI part that actually plays heavily "humanized" or was recorded live with imperfect timing, etc.
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Old 05-18-2016, 02:33 PM   #82
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As it stands (or maybe I've missed something?), the notation editor requires everything to be exactly on-beat in order to produce a readable score, meaning the result has overly rigid timing.
Yes, you missed display quantization settings.
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Old 05-18-2016, 02:49 PM   #83
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Yes, you missed display quantization settings.
Aah, the other day I thought I'd check out the notation and I used a project with a lot of tempo changes and very few notes were on the grid.

consequently it was kind of a mess. So there is a quantization just for the display? Makes sense, I just never thought about it.

Is there a way to not display certain notes on each staff? I use a lot of keyswitches, and that messes things up too. Also each instrument will have keyswitches in different locations on the staff.

Thanks ED.
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Old 05-18-2016, 02:57 PM   #84
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Yeah you can hide selected notes. Have to do it manually though.
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Old 05-18-2016, 03:29 PM   #85
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Yeah you can hide selected notes. Have to do it manually though.
Thanks ED, I'll check it out.
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Old 05-18-2016, 03:43 PM   #86
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Yes, you missed display quantization settings.
Yeah of course I missed that. Thanks!
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Old 05-19-2016, 01:11 AM   #87
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Thanks for the update.
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Old 05-19-2016, 05:35 AM   #88
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I'm barely a lurker here, but I don't understand the backlash against notation at all. There are several posters in this thread, myself included, excited to see it in this update. As I said earlier, I think this notation input method is intriguing and close to what I imagined and desired as I grew frustrated with the two major notation programs. It's basic standard notation with a pianoroll backdrop that allows easy input. The click-drag for note length is actually brilliant, in my opinion.

Will I use it? Definitely. I read music, and sometimes think in standard notation. Sometimes it takes me quite awhile to mentally translate notation to the pianoroll. Will I use still use a pianoroll? Definitely. Notation opens up a whole world of possibilities for composition within Reaper for me. For a studio working with session musicians? I could see it working there as well.

Seriously. Perhaps, you should change your poll to "how many users use every single feature within Reaper" just to see what comes up.
I quote every single word here.

Thank you Cockos, Justin and all.
Notaion is a GREAT feature, that adds a lot of completeness to our beloved DAW.

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Old 05-19-2016, 05:40 AM   #89
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Yes, you missed display quantization settings.
I missed that too, then I looked the "what's new" video on Reaper blog. From 09:16 there's a good overview of the Notation Editor. In few minutes I understood a lot of the notoation editor.

STefano
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Old 05-19-2016, 05:55 AM   #90
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As someone else said...... Xmas come early!
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Old 05-19-2016, 05:58 PM   #91
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Perhaps, you should change your poll to "how many users use every single feature within Reaper" just to see what comes up.
I use the "record" feature. It works pretty darn well too. I simply press "record", play some stuff on midi drums, electric bass, electric guitar, or midi keys, and then later it plays it all back when I press "play" which is one of the other really cool features I like in each version of Reaper! <g>
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Old 05-19-2016, 07:49 PM   #92
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The list below summarizes the main feature changes introduced in the REAPER 5.20 User Guide. It may also includes some existing features that were previously not documented. The previous update before this was 5.18.
. . .

You can pick up a beautiful spiral bound hard copy here:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/reaper/up-a...-22700784.html
Yep, I was waiting for this update to upgrade my printed manual! It will be my third one, and everyone copy was well worth it. It's a great price and very well written.
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Old 05-19-2016, 10:42 PM   #93
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Still no announcement on KVR?
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Old 05-19-2016, 10:48 PM   #94
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I've worked with the new notation editor for several hours now and am very happy with it. With continued improvement, I'll finally be able to retire MuseScore. I'm one customer who definitely needs a notation editor of some kind, so this is a banner day.

Most of my concerns have been addressed in this thread. One thing I'd like to see is the ability to visually "unlink" the piano roll and notation views.

As it stands (or maybe I've missed something?), the notation editor requires everything to be exactly on-beat in order to produce a readable score, meaning the result has overly rigid timing.

So unlinking the views would mean you could produce a proper-looking score for a MIDI part that actually plays heavily "humanized" or was recorded live with imperfect timing, etc.
Good point, once the notes have been "humanized", it introduces glitches that need to be "dehumanized" for scoring, although the tolerance system may help.

As for retiring MuseScore, keep it still for final editing and printing, whe MusicXML is ready.

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Old 05-19-2016, 11:02 PM   #95
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Is there a way to not display certain notes on each staff? I use a lot of keyswitches, and that messes things up too. Also each instrument will have keyswitches in different locations on the staff.
The hide notes function works very well Tod. The notes will be hidden in Notation view only, remaining visible in Piano roll.

Hopefully in coming releases there will be a way of storing note head assignements, transpositions (for drum keymapping) and keyswitch hiding as a .ReaStaff file or something.
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:10 PM   #96
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Question about dynamics and if you could just point me to the right spot in the manual I'd be happy to do my own research. Can Dynamics and Hairpins be assigned to any Midi CC? What about text? Can that be sent to a CC automation? Also, can we change the colors of the dynamics? It would be awesome to be able to use dynamics for multiple CC's to control dynamic and vibrato intensity for example.

Robby
This stuff isn't here yet, there are two threads in the pre-release forum where people have discussed pretty much what you're asking. It will roll out gradually we hope, and probably users will be able to create (and share) VSTi or Library specific 'articulation mappings' (forgot what we're going to be calling them).
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:27 PM   #97
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You can also import MusicXML into Lilypond.
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:27 AM   #98
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Can Dynamics and Hairpins be assigned to any Midi CC? What about text? Can that be sent to a CC automation? Also, can we change the colors of the dynamics? It would be awesome to be able to use dynamics for multiple CC's to control dynamic and vibrato intensity for example.
I feel I want to rant about this a bit, because it's puzzling to me (and some others) that Reaper has decided to take on this decade-old and well tried Gordian knot.

If the notation editor is going to be developed, one must be able to detach the link between visuals inserts and control data. Control data is a different function and it has very little in common with notation.

Linking the two, or making a very cumbersome and intricate scheme of transforming this link for each visual element on in individual basis, that's a nightmare scenario for the user, and has already been tried to death by .. well 'everybody'. It's known by few as the Cubase trap, because it's what Cubase did when Cubase was at this stage of development in the early 90s. The result was that even their support started recommending people to always copy the MIDI track to a new track just for the notation.

Combining notation with advanced MIDI, including keyswitches, CC data, 16 different MIDI channels, transpositions, non-traditional MIDI custom functions which are individual for each target instrument, even each target sample patch in Kontakt etc etc .. Cubase only came quarter of the way close to getting that to work, by implementing a complex multi-articulation scheme called VST Expression, which had to be programmed by hand by the user, for every single instrument patch he wanted to use, using a very limited framework too. I've tried using that with 20 instrument orchestra scores, a few dozens gb of samples, live MIDI input, and with the aspiration of making it into an orchestra sheet. My recommendation: just .. don't do that! As long as the program itself holds out, you will inexorably end up having to choose between good notation results or musicalsounding results. Ain't no way of combining the two, and certainly not in a practically productive way. None. Musical notation is like text, it's just a way to convey a general idea to the performer, which the performer is supposed to breath life into. But actual MIDI performance, requires an entirely different approach to get musical results out of.

If one considers that much of what we hear is also manipulations made by audio tools after MIDI control - like automation and mixing alone - this means you can't get those qualities that are heard in the music to be represented in the notation editor, because the notation is showing what happens in the MIDI domain, only. And if the MIDI and visuals are connected, you can't insert new symbols to represent what the listener hears, because then you insert a MIDI commands which will muck up the instrument playback. Not to mention, a great amount of instruments/samples just doesn't give off a performance that sounds anywhere near what the notation representation of those MIDI commands looks like. A drum loop can be a rich drum groove, notated like a 1 bar long whole note. You'll have to differentiate the MIDI commands almost completely from the visual representation for this - which alone begs the question why the notation editor is connected as a view in the MIDI editor, and not a separate editor for a separate medium? And separating visual elements from MIDI commands - either on an individual element by element basis, or by settings which collectively regulate which kinds of elements should act in what ways - is a handicapping nightmare for the user to handle whichever ways are chosen.

Traditional notation editors like Finale and Sibelius solves this by forcing the user into the 30 year old Roland GM MIDI standard, which nobody today wants (or can) to make contemporary music through. GM was Roland's attempt of bridging the gap between MIDI, notation and instrument expression, by using the same custom protocol for MIDI data and instruments made specifically to receive the data in a predetermined way. Yamaha did an almost embarrassing copy-cat attempt at the same thing, with XG MIDI. Today VSL uses their own custom software for this, which only works for their sample libs, and it doesn't even take notation into account. And Sibelius solution is to offer its own extremely reigned in instrument package which is custom made to receive and play back the GM MIDI commands that Sibelius uses as basis for the graphical notation. Presonus Notion does the same.

MIDI control and notation are extremely different - at times even opposing - elements. If Reaper's MIDI editor is going to be developed, that's going to be a no holds barred Gordian knot fight to solve, which hasn't been solved by anyone, despite introducing entire new industry standards to a world market trying to solve it.
Or else, Reaper's MIDI editor will become and remain a very limited barely useful 'cool tool' in the back or the rack, barely able to compete with Cubase's or Logic's limited editors. (And perhaps to the cost of not addressing a long list of essentials in the program awaited for years?).

That's how it seems to me, and that's a part of why some are frowning at the strategy (to answer a few who say they don't understand).
But on the surface, so far it seems like well done work, a few elegant solutions even. Good efforts always deserves commendation
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Old 05-20-2016, 03:30 AM   #99
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I feel I want to rant about this a bit...........

There is a notation app that seeks to solve the hybrid conundrum, and as i understand it, they've just released an update. But you're right, imho, and based on my own experience, the notation/midi sequence relationship can be fraught with peril.

https://sonicscores.com/overture/

For what it's worth, i treat notation and midi performance as two separate beasts, so i use Igor Engraver for any engraving needs, as few as they are these days. (Yes it still runs, in Wine.)

Good to see notation in Reaper though. If R had something like cubase's expression maps, that didn't show keyswitches (user sets visible instrument range, with keyswitches outside that), and was visible as a lane, along with other cc lanes, under the notation, then i think that would be a valuable addition to the notation tools. If the user wants reaper notation to respond to score text, like articulation marks, then reaper will likely need a dictionary, where each mark is allocated to an instrument, with a corresponding patch/keyswitch setting. So pizz. would be something like: "1st violins (name) pizz. (midiCC/note value) 16". You'd need a separate entry for each derivative of pizz, so reaper understood the text entry correctly, and frankly, for those of us dumb enough to write orchestral music, it would be a lot of work setting up.

And of course, you'd need a means to allocate each "Instrument Preset" to a track. (And if that were feasible, why not use the Instrument Preset for other metadata, like instrument range, initializing values for user defined CC, i.e. Volume, velocity, modwheel, including which of those CC's appear by default, per track) So there would need to be a means to do this in the track header somewhere.

One possible FR on humanising. Have a command (action) that said something like: "Don't shift visible note in notation when humanising". So if the note is 1/8, the user can slide it a little left and right in the piano roll (maybe up to a 16th either way) and not change the notational view. Only thing with this is, once humanisation has been applied, if the user turns it off, the score will directly mimic the PR, and may be a mess.

Alex.

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Old 05-20-2016, 05:15 AM   #100
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I'll agree with Colox to a point. I do agree that what has been done so far is very good.

I also think that the future is quite likely 'knotty'. I feel that there are conflicting aspirations in the user community even at this early stage as to the degree of translation between performance MIDI data and engraving end result.

There is very little room for compromise.

I know what my preferences are: I have MuseScore for my engraving (layout and printing), and nothing like what REAPER can do already to interpret live MIDI performance data. Let the games begin...
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Old 05-20-2016, 05:29 AM   #101
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Ups, did I really write all that above? Hmmm .. I didn't mean to 'boss around'. It was just a rant.

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the notation/midi sequence relationship can be fraught with peril.
Yeah, using loops is just one of a long list of things that won't work. Notation of a hefty drum beat loop: 1 continuous note All the "Groove Control" setup from Stylus RMX and Omnisphere is unusable. Virtual guitarist with auto generated chords? Nah.
Classical? VSL delivers sampled up/down runs with each instrument and instrument group. Those run samples are triggered with 1 MIDI note. So a run - 10-15 notes in fast succession - gets displayed in the notation editor as 1 continuous note - which isn't even the starting note of the run btw. A workaround is to make one's own run, by playing each note using a single instrument sample. Then the notation gets right, but instead it often sounds so bad you cringe.

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For what it's worth, i treat notation and midi performance as two separate beasts ..
Me too. Got Sibelius on here. I duplicate the instrument track in Reaper, correct all things and enter such things that makes it comply with GM, export MIDI file, import to Sibelius, and apply preset template on it and print.
I was on Cubase before. Mostly elementary school music teachers use that notation, for class. The printout from it is jagged and low-res even at 1200 DPI. Sibelius is baby-butt smooth at 72 DPI (ok, ok, including the anti-aliasing added by PDF-reader ), but pro-looking out of the box.

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Good to see notation in Reaper though.
It was cleverly implemented. Despite my rant, I don't mind it one bit. I just won't use it, felt the time could've been better used
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Old 05-20-2016, 05:34 AM   #102
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One possible FR on humanising. Have a command (action) that said something like: "Don't shift visible note in notation when humanising". So if the note is 1/8, the user can slide it a little left and right in the piano roll (maybe up to a 16th either way) and not change the notational view. Only thing with this is, once humanisation has been applied, if the user turns it off, the score will directly mimic the PR, and may be a mess.

Alex.
The notation view has "Display Quantization" that does exactly what you are looking for. It's set to 1/16th by default, but you can change it globally or per track to different values. It's used in conjuction with "Minimum note length" to tidy up scores and prevent these kind of tiny movements away from notated position from being notated over-accurately.
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Old 05-20-2016, 06:13 AM   #103
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The notation view has "Display Quantization" that does exactly what you are looking for. It's set to 1/16th by default, but you can change it globally or per track to different values. It's used in conjuction with "Minimum note length" to tidy up scores and prevent these kind of tiny movements away from notated position from being notated over-accurately.
Excellent.
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Old 05-20-2016, 06:40 AM   #104
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Schwa said a while back that an articulation mapper of sorts will be available at some point. We don't know what that will look like, so it's hard to say how it will compare to Cubase and other equivalents.

Anyway, the notation has built in midi syntax that developers can use for this kind of functionality. Here is my attempt to create a notation to midi tool:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=175118

It's not as user friendly as I'd like and it has some bugs, but give it a shot.
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Old 05-20-2016, 08:32 AM   #105
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Schwa said a while back that an articulation mapper of sorts will be available at some point.
That sound like a good idea.

Agree with Colox on much, the only auto articulation I'd prefer would maybe be 50% length for staccato.

Personally a larger practical concern is score notes vs. played notes. If I choose to edit according to score-view, I'll have to compromise on my midi mock-up sound, or vice versa.
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Old 05-20-2016, 12:47 PM   #106
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Awesome, so stoked to have notation! Thanks guys. Reaper incremental updates have more in them than other DAWs' major ones.
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:02 PM   #107
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Reaper incremental updates have more in them than other DAWs' major ones.
*cough* Reason *cough*




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Old 05-21-2016, 06:37 AM   #108
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I don't often post in releases but I wanted to chime in and say a huge thank you to the Devs for the Notation Editor.

The implementation works so well having tried it this morning.. It integrates so seamlessly switching between this and the piano roll even keeping the same commands. Classy and thoughtful.

I'm really happy not to look outside reaper for separate scoring solutions and see the developers tackled such a big feature, so neatly.

Cheers, Zam
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Old 05-21-2016, 10:52 PM   #109
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I've just done a really simple little video showing Display Quantization in the Notation View.



I'm nobody's keyboard player but I was able to get a clean enough score that it could be exported as MusicXML.

My underlying MIDI performance is very, very, human (with feelings), and was not edited in any way whatsoever (that means note positions and lengths are exactly as played).

If it works for me it will work with a good musician

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Old 05-22-2016, 07:48 AM   #110
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So I haven't fired up Mixbus in a while, decided to take it for a spin yesterday. Update announcement on the startup thingy. Mixbus 3.2 is available click here! Get your Credit card out! They want $$$ - they can kiss my entire ...

Thanks REAPER.
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Old 05-22-2016, 08:29 AM   #111
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I've just done a really simple little video showing Display Quantization in the Notation View.
That's pretty impressive.
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Old 05-22-2016, 11:35 PM   #112
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In the MIDI Editor the notes changes from sharp to flat, why?
I can set as before?

Thanks.
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Old 05-23-2016, 07:29 AM   #113
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Fantastic !!!

Now waiting for a tutorial on how to create a decently readable notation-sheet from a piano piece recorded live as Midi and played in a rather sloppy manner

-Michael
Yes! Can someone please get Kenny Gioia on this and create a tutorial?
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Old 05-23-2016, 07:31 AM   #114
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In the MIDI Editor the notes changes from sharp to flat, why?
I can set as before?

Thanks.
Because of key signature change, very likely.
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Old 05-23-2016, 07:45 AM   #115
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Polling people who use notation instead of piano roll editing? My guess is very very few.

OTOH, for those working with TRAINED session musicians/vocalists, this can be very handy.

More extensive piano roll improvements would have been more universally applauded.
This is *the* missing feature that will put Reaper over the top to pro editor status for orchestral composers, pro film & tv score-makers and an entire segment of the musician/producer population who can use these features. Don't underestimate their numbers - or their appreciation of this amazing first step.

THANK YOU
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Old 05-23-2016, 02:40 PM   #116
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I have been trying every DAW under the sun and I switched to Reaper the second I knew about the score editor. My life is easy now.
Sure, it's still in its infancy but it's very intuitive and the input method is just great.
Looking forward to seeing it grow and become industry standard
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Old 05-23-2016, 06:30 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostz View Post
In the MIDI Editor the notes changes from sharp to flat, why?
I can set as before?

Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Because of key signature change, very likely.
If this refers to what I've also been asking about, it's not because of a key sig change so much as it's because the ME doesn't have any direct sense of "key" and instead only responds to what the (newly renamed) "Key snap" is set to... which still isn't quite the same thing as "key sig," though, yeah, for many purposes it amounts to the same thing.
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Old 05-23-2016, 06:53 PM   #118
MonkeyBars
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish View Post
I've just done a really simple little video showing Display Quantization in the Notation View.
Thank you very much, super stoked this exists.
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Old 05-23-2016, 07:10 PM   #119
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Thanks mate. Yeah the Display Quantize really works! It's a thing of beauty. Last time I was able to do this was in Logic, but I like this much more.
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Old 05-25-2016, 08:04 AM   #120
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Thanks for the update. Have not tried it yet on my Wintel box, however, it does not play nicely on my MacBookPro... Posted some detail in the osX subforum. It simply hangs. Had to roll back to 5.18

Still, its quite an achievement, I am not big into notation, but I can see how it will position Reaper as a bigger player in the DAWsphere. And I am happy for all that depend on notation !

Well done.
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