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Old 09-06-2017, 04:05 AM   #1
tzzsmk
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Default Reaper for serious large scale deployment?

Hello everyone,
I'd like to hear your opinions about this matter, don't hesitate to throw whatever ideas, negative/positive feedback - I'm writing this as a theoretical situation, but it's actually a very real scenario

a company existing for almost 100 years in pro audio world, running 30+ studios (mix of windows, mac, protools and HD, samplitude and pro-x, plus some more stuff) and 1200+ employees doing basic audio jobs (mix of windows laptops, desktops, samplitude music studio, sound forge, vegas, movie maker, wavelab etc..) is getting to point the workflows are somewhat burdened/obsolete in nowadays (brought from tape jobs, fully analog computerless audio processing) and it's inevitable to make some adjustments to redefine and unify the workflow environment,

ideally have one software everyone could learn and comfortably work with in a long run, compatible with very wide range of hardware, letting users to move freely across workplaces being able to continue work on their projects regardless of being at studio, post-production mixing room, home, office etc..

as it's apparent both Microsoft and Apple are doing some serious changes, it's very likely software and hardware manufacturers will be forced to act accordingly, just to name a few, AVID is a mess, Adobe annually-paid cloud is unreliable, Sony selling majority of software to Magix etc.., RME as always likely to support everything until it's beyond death....it's very uneasy to plan ahead enough,

do you think is there a solution to such situation, let's say deploying Reaper across all the computers keeping current software sets unchanged and let employees learn new DAW software along with their current well-learned whatever-they-use, let's say within a year, and then start buying new workstations and total hardware overhaul (by this I mean unified OS environment, slightly more unified audio interfaces and so on),

which could potentionally harm entire employee structures, because very skilled long-time "pros" might refuse or fail adopting changes, being literally steamrolled by "newbies" who have grown at computers dawn having much better computer-ous "common sense" and can adapt new things much easier,

would you rather rebuild some studios completely from scratch, or try to implement both technologies at (almost) every workplace, attempt to explain people why that all makes sense to move away (or should I say move forward) from something being used for 2 decades because computers have changed ways we can process audio very efficiently being able to decrease errors, frustrations and unexpected problems caused by legacy software and hardware logical burdens?

sorry if it sounds too complicated or if I wrote something misleading, english isn't my native language, thanks in advance for any reactions
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:18 AM   #2
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employees must be able to use anything, and constantly optimizing workflows is always a good idea. You can keep previous workflow while creating a new one at the same time until it is ready and better than the previous one. Companies that depend on computers technology must be always upgrading technologies.

"skilled long-time "pros" might refuse or fail adopting changes..." this sounds like animal species that can't adapt to new conditions and go extinct.
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:53 AM   #3
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employees must be able to use anything, and constantly optimizing workflows is always a good idea. You can keep previous workflow while creating a new one at the same time until it is ready and better than the previous one. Companies that depend on computers technology must be always upgrading technologies.

"skilled long-time "pros" might refuse or fail adopting changes..." this sounds like animal species that can't adapt to new conditions and go extinct.
it's not that simple,
large companies are usually restrained/reserved/delayed when it comes to upgrading technologies, you barely find companies using bleeding edge tech (apart from dedicated testing/support departments which explore what's new), rule "don't update it if it works" really makes sense here,

talking about animal species, for ex. teaching a donkey to run can produce more wasted time than letting it carry things slow but steady,
adoption to new conditions makes sense if time invested in learning balances the new advantages
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:16 AM   #4
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Just additional thoughts:

Reaper might be not the most user-friendly DAW for certain kinds of workflow, but Reaper is certainly the most versatile and customizable DAW available (I also heard positive comments about it's stability and audio performance).

This could be a plus when using it in a site that runs it on many systems, and hence can afford to have a "support team" of experts, who are able to configure and install the best possible setup for a user that needs special care.

Regarding your complains on big companies: The fully compatible Linux version of Reaper is vividly discussed in the "pre-release" forum.

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Old 09-06-2017, 05:29 AM   #5
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I think your hypothetical premise makes some bad assumptions. A company with 100 studios looking for continuity is what PT type corporate supported tools are designed for.

Your other premise that Sony sold most of it's software seems perhaps incorrect and also maybe irrelevant. Not even sure how it fits as Sony has never made a pro level recording studio daw, only an audio editor.

A corporate entity with 100 locations probably needs things that some small shops don't provide, like 24/7 support, technical boots on the ground, strong integration with various types of media hardware, etc, etc. Their concerns do not align with daw consumers and budget wise the daw is probably way down the expense list, cost wise.

I personally think Reaper would do well anywhere. having said that, if you expect MGM or Sony music or any other large entity to make a corporate decision to use Reaper as their goto A room software in all of their studios, that's perhaps a bit delusional.
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:18 AM   #6
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Keep your eye on the prize: your business is turning out product, not creating a ministry of software standards.

I've seen a lot of companies invert this: the process becomes more important than the product.

Creating a team to facilitate "whatever works" and help build core skills and work with teams interacting (finding and sharing best practices) from the lower levels UPWARD is better than flowing DOWN from some theoretical higher level.

You may know all this - this is just IMHO.
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:26 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Just additional thoughts:

Reaper might be not the most user-friendly DAW for certain kinds of workflow, but Reaper is certainly the most versatile and customizable DAW available (I also heard positive comments about it's stability and audio performance).

This could be a plus when using it in a site that runs it on many systems, and hence can afford to have a "support team" of experts, who are able to configure and install the best possible setup for a user that needs special care.

Regarding your complains on big companies: The fully compatible Linux version of Reaper is vividly discussed in the "pre-release" forum.

-Michael
yes, versatility and customizability at such level is a huge deal for a company with specific needs and workflows, ability to easily manage settings without any registry, making it possible to load each user own settings maybe even handled directly from corporate domain controller rules...that's something most other DAWs can dream about
stability and reliability is top priority, plus the speed at which Reaper loads and is fully usable is remarkable considering it's still a fully-featured DAW

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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I think your hypothetical premise makes some bad assumptions. A company with 100 studios looking for continuity is what PT type corporate supported tools are designed for.

Your other premise that Sony sold most of it's software seems perhaps incorrect and also maybe irrelevant. Not even sure how it fits as Sony has never made a pro level recording studio daw, only an audio editor.

A corporate entity with 100 locations probably needs things that some small shops don't provide, like 24/7 support, technical boots on the ground, strong integration with various types of media hardware, etc, etc. Their concerns do not align with daw consumers and budget wise the daw is probably way down the expense list, cost wise.

I personally think Reaper would do well anywhere. having said that, if you expect MGM or Sony music or any other large entity to make a corporate decision to use Reaper as their goto A room software in all of their studios, that's perhaps a bit delusional.
I have lost all respect for AVID as a company, problems I have faced with protools, turning out to be long-known, turning out to be "fixed later" (we're talking about venuelink, major feature of 60000$ AVID consoles, configuration bugs such as HUI+MIDI suddenly gone, again matter of 40000$ studer consoles, record freeze within 20 seconds because of "only 180GB empty space on drive etc..)
Sony has no major DAW ever developed, yet SoundForge is incredibly handy easy-to-use piece of software, and even Reaper UI design is based on Vegas, that said many home artists use Vegas as relatively cheap audio+video production software
corporate entity at such scale has own 24/7 support, people dedicated to IT, infrastructure, audio, signal distribution and other areas, most of the gear and solutions tailored in-house, in most cases more efficient and convenient than paying "external" 24/7 service provider or 24/7 publisher/dev support, paying for software-as-a-service continuously at such scale is actually more expensive than paying full-time dedicated department in-house
large entities are crushing nowadays, some months ago I had a chat with broadcast sales manager of Genelec and I was told major buyers are no longer recording or broadcasting studios, but smaller sound design and software companies - things are changing and so are DAW and hardware requirements of customers to meet,
sure it's a bit fairytale to think everything could be done with just one piece of software, that's not a point of my original post, but rather ability to consolidate workflows even if it would mean to for ex. keep protools for recording in one place, and samplitude for loudness compilance mastering at another place
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I think your hypothetical premise makes some bad assumptions. A company with 100 studios looking for continuity is what PT type corporate supported tools are designed for.

Your other premise that Sony sold most of it's software seems perhaps incorrect and also maybe irrelevant. Not even sure how it fits as Sony has never made a pro level recording studio daw, only an audio editor.

A corporate entity with 100 locations probably needs things that some small shops don't provide, like 24/7 support, technical boots on the ground, strong integration with various types of media hardware, etc, etc. Their concerns do not align with daw consumers and budget wise the daw is probably way down the expense list, cost wise.

I personally think Reaper would do well anywhere. having said that, if you expect MGM or Sony music or any other large entity to make a corporate decision to use Reaper as their goto A room software in all of their studios, that's perhaps a bit delusional.
My thoughts exactly. Theroretically Reaper is fully capable of being used on a wide scale, and due to it's flexibility and stability would be an excellent, maybe the best, choice - in theory. I just don't see a large established corporation being willing to deal with such a small (2-3 person?) company. Cockos has no sales team to wine and dine the VPs, no customer support help-desk, no training team to assist with deployment. I don't imagine the decision makers would be willing to use this forum for a help desk and Kenny's videos as training (not a knock on either of course, but neither is typically "corporate").

Now if you could get Kenny - or someone like him - to lead a team of experts to be on site to install, train, and be a help-desk, that could resolve some of those issues, but I still have difficulty seeing corporate going for it.
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:15 AM   #9
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On the one hand, a large Protools setup with the Digi hardware and following all the hardware rules and such DOES still operate at a high level of stability and everybody that ever knew how to run it still sits behind a workstation and gets things done.

There's the argument about newer technology costing pennies on the dollar compared to that gear and then you get the last 10 years of innovation with it. An obvious no-brainer for someone small or just entering the business. But for an existing PT infrastructure, the math can still work out better to stay with the PT system and add bits to it. We're not reinventing the wheel when it still spins.

So that's the usual argument, right?

I wonder how that mark in the sand is doing today though? Considering the hardware choices available to something like Reaper vs. PT (talk about polar opposites!) and then the last 10 years or more of innovation and feature sets unavailable in the PT world, I wonder if it is still cost effective to add new PT compatible bits of hardware as needed vs. starting to filter in new technology.

On the workflow/training side, I wonder if that math would still work better even factoring in hiring someone to make PT-like Reaper configs to keep the PT veterans working and none the wiser. (Or is the PT faker theme shared in this forum maybe already a done deal for that?)

Between native processing abilities in Reaper using computers that are now magnitudes more powerful than the old PT hardware and audio over network hardware like Dante on the scene now, we might almost be at the threshold where new equipment is a better fit than the old rusty but trusty PT setup. Fair enough if the math still doesn't add up but this has got to be getting close.


If someone came along with an audio engine for Linux any time soon this would be the opportune time to shake things up. While PT is riding out their life expectancy, Apple is resting on their laurels with iThing sales and ignoring their pro computers and OSX. Seems the perfect time to leave them both in the dust! It's all fun in theory.
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzzsmk View Post
ideally have one software everyone could learn and comfortably work with in a long run, compatible with very wide range of hardware, letting users to move freely across workplaces being able to continue work on their projects regardless of being at studio, post-production mixing room, home, office etc..
This looks like the heart of your hypothesis. Increased productivity due to the uniformity and flexibility of the software. REAPER projects can be opened in both Windows OS and Apple OS; there are no dongles; it boasts a very decent roster of effects, the program seems very stable, has a very well written manual and licensing is sensibly priced.

I'm sure with the size of your organization, you would not be the only person making the decision. If the aforementioned attributes of REAPER meet the vision of your organization, then the answer may be apparent.
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Old 09-06-2017, 11:54 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by serr View Post
On the one hand, a large Protools setup with the Digi hardware and following all the hardware rules and such DOES still operate at a high level of stability and everybody that ever knew how to run it still sits behind a workstation and gets things done.

There's the argument about newer technology costing pennies on the dollar compared to that gear and then you get the last 10 years of innovation with it. An obvious no-brainer for someone small or just entering the business. But for an existing PT infrastructure, the math can still work out better to stay with the PT system and add bits to it. We're not reinventing the wheel when it still spins.

So that's the usual argument, right?

I wonder how that mark in the sand is doing today though? Considering the hardware choices available to something like Reaper vs. PT (talk about polar opposites!) and then the last 10 years or more of innovation and feature sets unavailable in the PT world, I wonder if it is still cost effective to add new PT compatible bits of hardware as needed vs. starting to filter in new technology.

On the workflow/training side, I wonder if that math would still work better even factoring in hiring someone to make PT-like Reaper configs to keep the PT veterans working and none the wiser. (Or is the PT faker theme shared in this forum maybe already a done deal for that?)

Between native processing abilities in Reaper using computers that are now magnitudes more powerful than the old PT hardware and audio over network hardware like Dante on the scene now, we might almost be at the threshold where new equipment is a better fit than the old rusty but trusty PT setup. Fair enough if the math still doesn't add up but this has got to be getting close.


If someone came along with an audio engine for Linux any time soon this would be the opportune time to shake things up. While PT is riding out their life expectancy, Apple is resting on their laurels with iThing sales and ignoring their pro computers and OSX. Seems the perfect time to leave them both in the dust! It's all fun in theory.
and that's exactly why I wanted to start the topic,
because for ex. Avid HDX Core with Pro Tools HD (1-year upgrade plan included) costs almost 5200€ at thomann, then two 16x16 IO cost another almost 9000€, while alternative such as let's say RME HDSPe Madi FX (194x194 IO) with Reaper (lifetime use with upgrades up to another major version) costs less than 1430€ (1379€ for PCIex interface and roughly 50€ for daw), then high-end MADI 32x32 IO mic/line preamp such as Andiamo.MC (which btw takes only 2U space with 32/32 IO) costs around 8000€ makes ProTools still roughly 50% more expensive solution of no obvious cost justification,
price difference of 4770€ is enough to get for ex. Fabfilter total bundle, iZotope production and post-production bundles, decent Waves bundles etc.. which are more than enough to surpass ProTools stock plugins and all could be eventually used in any other DAW aside
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:55 PM   #12
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I take all of your points to heart and respect the ideas and the intent behind them. You are all obviously very intelligent people.

That being said, real life is not a philosophy or social experiment and in the real big business world changing multi-million or billion dollar corporations is akin to turning around an aircraft carrier in a skinny river. Could J & S do that? Maybe, but it would take heck of a lot of planning, a ton of marketing, and a ton of time and financial investment... and some payoff and graff mixed īn there somewhere.

Yamaha, the owners of Nuendo, a huge company with vast resources, have been after it for years... and barely made a dent. Avid fell into a gold spot and only they can ruin it... for the forseeable future anyway, which is why you don't see Bitwig getting multi-million dollar contracts for the Olympics.

Still, it makes a good thought experiment.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:58 PM   #13
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I just don't see a large established corporation being willing to deal with such a small (2-3 person?) company. Cockos has no sales team to wine and dine the VPs, no customer support help-desk, no training team to assist with deployment. I don't imagine the decision makers would be willing to use this forum for a help desk and Kenny's videos as training (not a knock on either of course, but neither is typically "corporate").
It is well known that the BBC use REAPER (albeit for only certain tasks)without the back-up of a large sales and support team at Cuckos. My guess is that REAPER's stability, customisation abilities, general power and low cost mean that they are happy to invest in some in-house training etc. They also use (or did do?) Audition for editing so maybe REAPER is seen as not having an optimal work flow for every situation.
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:29 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
That being said, real life is not a philosophy or social experiment and in the real big business world changing multi-million or billion dollar corporations is akin to turning around an aircraft carrier in a skinny river. Could J & S do that? Maybe, but it would take heck of a lot of planning, a ton of marketing, and a ton of time and financial investment... and some payoff and graff mixed īn there somewhere.
While this is not an entire answer, I do believe this scenario would gain a lot by investing in "traditionally corporate" IT skill sets, such as Active Directory and Group Policy. I know it's entirely possible to set each user up to where they can log in to any machine on the domain, and they have a consistent experience, wherever they decide to set up. Mapping folders (i.e. presets and project files), supporting security (users can't install crap), etc.

Alternatively, Reaper might be a good candidate for using Virtual Machines - but the audio hardware footprint might make this impossible.
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:38 PM   #15
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Another option, logistically challenging, but intriguing - each engineer gets their own drives to lug from studio to studio. I.e. each machine just runs off of hot-swap drives, including OS, and each user just takes their toolkit with them.

Again, tooooons of variable will make this challenging or impossible, but might be another option.

And, at the risk of being Mr. Obvious, both of these approaches only handles the PC/MAC side of things.
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:08 AM   #16
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I take all of your points to heart and respect the ideas and the intent behind them. You are all obviously very intelligent people.

That being said, real life is not a philosophy or social experiment and in the real big business world changing multi-million or billion dollar corporations is akin to turning around an aircraft carrier in a skinny river. Could J & S do that? Maybe, but it would take heck of a lot of planning, a ton of marketing, and a ton of time and financial investment... and some payoff and graff mixed īn there somewhere.

Yamaha, the owners of Nuendo, a huge company with vast resources, have been after it for years... and barely made a dent. Avid fell into a gold spot and only they can ruin it... for the forseeable future anyway, which is why you don't see Bitwig getting multi-million dollar contracts for the Olympics.

Still, it makes a good thought experiment.
you're forgetting times are really changing,
years ago with everything being done offline, it was entirely different thing to provide support+updates, nowadays you can literally call a guy on the opposite site of the world to fix your issue within minutes,
similarly audio companies are no longer burdened by building huge fancy studios, extreme desktop workstation machine rooms, tons of outboard gear, dedicated reverb rooms etc.., everyone can carry own laptop with decent audio interface and work on-the-go with impressive results (not necessarily entire workflow, but all the rough edits and adjustments can be done regardless of listening environment for ex.),
if a company wanted to truly redefine their entire workflow chain, then obviously it would be matter of months researching, planning, discussions and few-year transition plan, but employees being more aware and management open enough to let people say their word and share their visions, again nowadays world is no longer about "boss-slave" work mechanics
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:40 AM   #17
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My take on this issue may seem old fashioned and perhaps even a bit naive, but from my point of view, as a semi-pro musician and home studioist, the workflow of Reaper mimics exactly the workflow developed over 14 decades from the very moment that Thomas Alva Edison uttered "Mary Had A Little Lamb" into his wax cylinder machine to the current age of digital non-linear recording and editing.

Recording technology has advanced incredibly over the years, but the basic goal remains the same: To produce recordings that are pleasing to an audience who might purchase such, and/or satisfying to an artist creating said recordings. It's all about cultural Communication rather than any current or past technology.

In this respect, my first "multi-track" recordings were made on my Dad's Teac A1200 reel-to-reel back in the early 70's (actually it was sound-on-sound overdubbing / bouncing) and even before that a little Hitachi 3" reel-to-reel *toy* recorder in the late 60's .... it was completely fascinating to me, and I still have some of the tapes made back then !!!

In my college years I majored in Broadcast Telecommunications, because I wanted to 'play with the toys' as it were .... <laughs> ... and after college acquired my first multi-track - a Tascam 244 Portastudio - which was a whole lotta fun to work with. Later on I got into digital, trying at first Audacity, then CuBase LE, then ProTools LE, then Fruity Loops, before settling on Reaper as my main DAW .... the reason being because Reaper has the same tried-n-true workflow and open flexibility as the old analog process had been. Reaper was like an "old friend"

What does all the above screed mean? Mainly that regardless of advanced and advancing technology, the original premise of Edison's invention remains exactly the same: To produce recordings of and for humanity so that they can be preserved into the future for generations to come.

Any other reading of this premise is just "gear'ism" and/or "techie" nonsense .....


(sorry to be so long-winded on this ... <laughs>


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Old 09-07-2017, 01:55 AM   #18
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Hardware-integration is maybe what Reaper is least good at,
and that is what PT is all about.
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Old 09-07-2017, 05:23 AM   #19
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...What does all the above screed mean? Mainly that regardless of advanced and advancing technology, the original premise of Edison's invention remains exactly the same: To produce recordings of and for humanity so that they can be preserved into the future for generations to come.

Any other reading of this premise is just "gear'ism" and/or "techie" nonsense .....
Tommy V
that is very true, yet it's worth reconsidering the efficiency of achieving so

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Hardware-integration is maybe what Reaper is least good at,
and that is what PT is all about.
ProTools by design has very ill I/O, monitoring and bus routing, the way it handles audio configuration is inferior to any other DAW I have used, moreover the AVID audio hardware is unable to be accessed by multiple audio softwares simultaneously which is very inconvenient
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Old 09-07-2017, 06:54 AM   #20
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Hardware-integration is maybe what Reaper is least good at,
and that is what PT is all about.
What kind of "hardware" do you mean ? (dedicated DSP "boxes", A/D-D/A interfaces, or outband (e.g. analog) audio equipment ?

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Old 09-07-2017, 07:18 AM   #21
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What kind of "hardware" do you mean ? (dedicated DSP "boxes", A/D-D/A interfaces, or outband (e.g. analog) audio equipment ?

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I'm thinking mainly Control Surfaces and Consols
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Old 09-07-2017, 07:20 AM   #22
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ProTools by design has very ill I/O, monitoring and bus routing, the way it handles audio configuration is inferior to any other DAW I have used, moreover the AVID audio hardware is unable to be accessed by multiple audio softwares simultaneously which is very inconvenient
Well, I've never tried PT or had large-facility/high-budget experience, so I guess you know more than me about this.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:28 AM   #23
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My thoughts exactly. Theroretically Reaper is fully capable of being used on a wide scale, and due to it's flexibility and stability would be an excellent, maybe the best, choice - in theory. I just don't see a large established corporation being willing to deal with such a small (2-3 person?) company. Cockos has no sales team to wine and dine the VPs, no customer support help-desk, no training team to assist with deployment. I don't imagine the decision makers would be willing to use this forum for a help desk and Kenny's videos as training (not a knock on either of course, but neither is typically "corporate").

Now if you could get Kenny - or someone like him - to lead a team of experts to be on site to install, train, and be a help-desk, that could resolve some of those issues, but I still have difficulty seeing corporate going for it.
Having been in this position before more than once (deployment of DAW software to an organization with more than 20 DAWs) I have consistently failed to sell REAPER to the powers that be for the reasons stated above. Not wining and dining but the name brand power of being able to walk into Sam Ash and see a box with "Pro Tools" stamped on it is very powerful to owner/management/non-engineer types. Coupled with Avid's long standing track record (without looking too closely at it, of course) and ubiquity it's very hard to convince laymen that there are legitimate alternatives.

And believe me, I've dealt with Avid support. If that's anyone's reason for staying with Pro Tools then I'm guessing they have not. But the fact that it exists gives some kind of existential comfort if you don't know how lousy it is (despite the fact that, in reality, most PT tech support seems to happen at the DUC forum as you'd expect).

But I agree that REAPER actually is well suited for these kinds of deployments. It might take some customization (a bunch of it maybe) but it really can do so many different things in so many different ways.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:47 AM   #24
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ideally have one software everyone could learn and comfortably work with in a long run, compatible with very wide range of hardware, letting users to move freely across workplaces being able to continue work on their projects regardless of being at studio, post-production mixing room, home, office etc..
This is the direction BlackMagic is heading with DaVinci Resolve 14.

A single application that may be installed on Windows, OS X, and Linux.

Media Ingest, Picture Editor, Colour Grading, Music, Sound Design, ADR, Foley, Media and Master Delivery and QC, all these different departments may be physically located within a single facility or may also be located within physically different and remote facilities (or even with team members on location shoots or recording live) collaborating in real time using the same software, working on the same indentical Project, with the same indentical media simultaneously, and with all changes being applied globally or on a per edit basis (via a Timeline comparison tool) as required.

All members of the production team may chat in real time and keep in touch as the project progresses or as special requirements need to be fulfilled by a particular member or to fulfill special requests late in production requested by producers or directors. No more sending of media back and forth, constant changes being requested via email, conforming and constant reconforming, or struggling to maintain sync among the multitude of changes, trying to stay current with different requirements.

Workflows and budgets are changing rapidly, and recording and post-production engineers are looking at every available option to be more efficient, more collaborative, while also saving money, and especially time.

As G-Sun mentioned, Reaper's hardware integration is its weakest trait. I tried in vain to get Reaper to be flexible with modern control surfaces such as the S6 and S3 while still functioning in more varied workflows (as mentioned above) and going forward with immersive audio workflows.
Instead, I'm transitioning to Resolve 14 for the majority of the audio workflow, with the Fairlight Accelerator card and Fairlight consoles to be added to fill the gap Reaper is currently unable to complete.

Now the entire team from Ingest to delivery can work on the same software, on the same Project, and in real time, anywhere they may physically be located. Much more productive, with faster turn around times, and much less hassle.

Last edited by Reynaud; 09-07-2017 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:47 PM   #25
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????

Everything I've heard is exactly the opposite. I'm not the best judge, since I don't do much external hardware integration. But reading comments from mastering engineers on Gearslutz and other boards have implied the Reaper is far and away better than PT in that regard, and you find lots of mastering engineers making the switch to Reaper. And mastering engineers probably integrate with HW more than most.

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Hardware-integration is maybe what Reaper is least good at,
and that is what PT is all about.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:49 PM   #26
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Everything you have written makes sense. The biggest problem is probably convincing the powers that be to switch to Reaper. Once done and users get used to it, it should perform quite well. And Cockos is obviously way better than Avid as a company.

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Having been in this position before more than once (deployment of DAW software to an organization with more than 20 DAWs) I have consistently failed to sell REAPER to the powers that be for the reasons stated above. Not wining and dining but the name brand power of being able to walk into Sam Ash and see a box with "Pro Tools" stamped on it is very powerful to owner/management/non-engineer types. Coupled with Avid's long standing track record (without looking too closely at it, of course) and ubiquity it's very hard to convince laymen that there are legitimate alternatives.

And believe me, I've dealt with Avid support. If that's anyone's reason for staying with Pro Tools then I'm guessing they have not. But the fact that it exists gives some kind of existential comfort if you don't know how lousy it is (despite the fact that, in reality, most PT tech support seems to happen at the DUC forum as you'd expect).

But I agree that REAPER actually is well suited for these kinds of deployments. It might take some customization (a bunch of it maybe) but it really can do so many different things in so many different ways.
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Old 09-07-2017, 07:28 PM   #27
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One more comment: I think the Kenny Goia tutorial videos are a huge selling point for a large deployment.

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Hello everyone,
I'd like to hear your opinions about this matter, don't hesitate to throw whatever ideas, negative/positive feedback - I'm writing this as a theoretical situation, but it's actually a very real scenario

a company existing for almost 100 years in pro audio world, running 30+ studios (mix of windows, mac, protools and HD, samplitude and pro-x, plus some more stuff) and 1200+ employees doing basic audio jobs (mix of windows laptops, desktops, samplitude music studio, sound forge, vegas, movie maker, wavelab etc..) is getting to point the workflows are somewhat burdened/obsolete in nowadays (brought from tape jobs, fully analog computerless audio processing) and it's inevitable to make some adjustments to redefine and unify the workflow environment,

ideally have one software everyone could learn and comfortably work with in a long run, compatible with very wide range of hardware, letting users to move freely across workplaces being able to continue work on their projects regardless of being at studio, post-production mixing room, home, office etc..

as it's apparent both Microsoft and Apple are doing some serious changes, it's very likely software and hardware manufacturers will be forced to act accordingly, just to name a few, AVID is a mess, Adobe annually-paid cloud is unreliable, Sony selling majority of software to Magix etc.., RME as always likely to support everything until it's beyond death....it's very uneasy to plan ahead enough,

do you think is there a solution to such situation, let's say deploying Reaper across all the computers keeping current software sets unchanged and let employees learn new DAW software along with their current well-learned whatever-they-use, let's say within a year, and then start buying new workstations and total hardware overhaul (by this I mean unified OS environment, slightly more unified audio interfaces and so on),

which could potentionally harm entire employee structures, because very skilled long-time "pros" might refuse or fail adopting changes, being literally steamrolled by "newbies" who have grown at computers dawn having much better computer-ous "common sense" and can adapt new things much easier,

would you rather rebuild some studios completely from scratch, or try to implement both technologies at (almost) every workplace, attempt to explain people why that all makes sense to move away (or should I say move forward) from something being used for 2 decades because computers have changed ways we can process audio very efficiently being able to decrease errors, frustrations and unexpected problems caused by legacy software and hardware logical burdens?

sorry if it sounds too complicated or if I wrote something misleading, english isn't my native language, thanks in advance for any reactions
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Old 09-07-2017, 08:19 PM   #28
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The portable install version may be a boon in your circumstance. You could set up a number of quite different Reaper systems for radio editing, multi tracking, broadcast and so in, all based around Reaper but with ver different toolbars and looks. Maintenance teams only have one system to understand - Reaper - yet end users can have quite different and tailored systems designed for their specific tasks
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Old 09-07-2017, 08:47 PM   #29
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My experience of software purchasing decisions by large organisations suggests extreme reluctance to invest significant resources deploying a solution whose providers could be totally wiped out by a tandem bicycle accident - no matter how superior that solution might be.
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Old 09-08-2017, 01:12 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ngarjuna View Post
Having been in this position before more than once (deployment of DAW software to an organization with more than 20 DAWs) I have consistently failed to sell REAPER to the powers that be for the reasons stated above. Not wining and dining but the name brand power of being able to walk into Sam Ash and see a box with "Pro Tools" stamped on it is very powerful to owner/management/non-engineer types. Coupled with Avid's long standing track record (without looking too closely at it, of course) and ubiquity it's very hard to convince laymen that there are legitimate alternatives.
Yes, besides control-surface/desk-integration the 2 other main downsides of Reaper is:

- Support-desk/team/install-crew (as you said)
and
- Customization.

Yes, I'd say the way Reaper can act, look and perform so different is a weakness when you want to put it into a large-scale environment, where you want a DAW that acts simple and homogeneous for all users. But, please correct me if I'm wrong about this
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Old 09-08-2017, 03:25 AM   #31
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But I agree that REAPER actually is well suited for these kinds of deployments. It might take some customization (a bunch of it maybe) but it really can do so many different things in so many different ways.
this is something most companies simply cannot offer due to "closed" development environment, know-how, non-open-sourced components etc.., I think it's becoming very noticeable recently even huge companies are starting to use open-sourced elements because when considering pros and cons of closed vs open development, nowadays open dev cycle wins

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This is the direction BlackMagic is heading with DaVinci Resolve 14.

A single application that may be installed on Windows, OS X, and Linux.

Workflows and budgets are changing rapidly, and recording and post-production engineers are looking at every available option to be more efficient, more collaborative, while also saving money, and especially time.

As G-Sun mentioned, Reaper's hardware integration is its weakest trait. I tried in vain to get Reaper to be flexible with modern control surfaces such as the S6 and S3 while still functioning in more varied workflows (as mentioned above) and going forward with immersive audio workflows.
Instead, I'm transitioning to Resolve 14 for the majority of the audio workflow, with the Fairlight Accelerator card and Fairlight consoles to be added to fill the gap Reaper is currently unable to complete.

Now the entire team from Ingest to delivery can work on the same software, on the same Project, and in real time, anywhere they may physically be located. Much more productive, with faster turn around times, and much less hassle.
actually I've been keeping an eye on Blackmagic as a whole (as well as other companies such as HitFilm and Affinity, regarding non-audio world) but as it is right now it seems too much video-oriented to me, and that is in most cases to complex to use for relatively very basic audio workflows,
indeed a vision of entire production suite system is grand, I can remember Dalet Galaxy (entire media asset management platform) being serious player although not so much known worldwide, but problem of all those unified closed environments is 1) users have usually no other place to learn/use (compared to for ex. Reaper or Resolve you can download from free at home to check out) and 2) such massive closed ecosystem is pain to keep updated and fully-working (compared to single-station "standalone" independent clients such as Reaper for ex.)

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Everything you have written makes sense. The biggest problem is probably convincing the powers that be to switch to Reaper. Once done and users get used to it, it should perform quite well. And Cockos is obviously way better than Avid as a company.
I wouldn't dare to compare those companies at all, the way those started and developed, even the philosophy behind entire DAW idea is way different, yet it's remarkable how close the actual products can compete
convincing the people who have final word is about bringing up the advantages and disadvantages in widest possible scale/range of many different points of view, cost being seemingly important, especially in the long run, but not a crucial aspect in my opinion

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The portable install version may be a boon in your circumstance. You could set up a number of quite different Reaper systems for radio editing, multi tracking, broadcast and so in, all based around Reaper but with ver different toolbars and looks. Maintenance teams only have one system to understand - Reaper - yet end users can have quite different and tailored systems designed for their specific tasks
yup this is something very appealing and cannot be ommited - people who will be supposed to manage/service/support whatever system within a company would be totally happy to have one system to learn, while end users could use specifically adjusted/tailored workspace settings (which could be easily saved/loaded, even remotedly) to suit their own needs

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Originally Posted by gmgmgm View Post
My experience of software purchasing decisions by large organisations suggests extreme reluctance to invest significant resources deploying a solution whose providers could be totally wiped out by a tandem bicycle accident - no matter how superior that solution might be.
that is understandable, but similarly of my experience most companies severely underestimate the substitutability of "core" workers (be it network admins, system admins, head editors etc..),
moreover companies being reluctant to ANY updates/upgrades, I wouldn't consider it a problem if whatever software bought today way was used for following couple years without any upgrades (if it worked well out of the box as it was)

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Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Yes, besides control-surface/desk-integration the 2 other main downsides of Reaper is:

- Support-desk/team/install-crew (as you said)
and
- Customization.

Yes, I'd say the way Reaper can act, look and perform so different is a weakness when you want to put it into a large-scale environment, where you want a DAW that acts simple and homogeneous for all users. But, please correct me if I'm wrong about this
not sure what did you mean by Customization as a downside, I consider that a major upside, and even if the requirement would be for unified environment, it's very easy to provide unified configuration and prohibit adjustments, or not?
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:44 AM   #32
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not sure what did you mean by Customization as a downside, I consider that a major upside, and even if the requirement would be for unified environment, it's very easy to provide unified configuration and prohibit adjustments, or not?
Maybe you're right.
I'm not the expert here,so maybe you're right
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:50 AM   #33
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This is the direction BlackMagic is heading with DaVinci Resolve 14.

A single application that may be installed on Windows, OS X, and Linux.

Media Ingest, Picture Editor, Colour Grading, Music, Sound Design, ADR, Foley, Media and Master Delivery and QC, all these different departments may be physically located within a single facility or may also be located within physically different and remote facilities (or even with team members on location shoots or recording live) collaborating in real time using the same software, working on the same indentical Project, with the same indentical media simultaneously, and with all changes being applied globally or on a per edit basis (via a Timeline comparison tool) as required.

All members of the production team may chat in real time and keep in touch as the project progresses or as special requirements need to be fulfilled by a particular member or to fulfill special requests late in production requested by producers or directors. No more sending of media back and forth, constant changes being requested via email, conforming and constant reconforming, or struggling to maintain sync among the multitude of changes, trying to stay current with different requirements.

Workflows and budgets are changing rapidly, and recording and post-production engineers are looking at every available option to be more efficient, more collaborative, while also saving money, and especially time.

As G-Sun mentioned, Reaper's hardware integration is its weakest trait. I tried in vain to get Reaper to be flexible with modern control surfaces such as the S6 and S3 while still functioning in more varied workflows (as mentioned above) and going forward with immersive audio workflows.
Instead, I'm transitioning to Resolve 14 for the majority of the audio workflow, with the Fairlight Accelerator card and Fairlight consoles to be added to fill the gap Reaper is currently unable to complete.

Now the entire team from Ingest to delivery can work on the same software, on the same Project, and in real time, anywhere they may physically be located. Much more productive, with faster turn around times, and much less hassle.
This and only this!

We too will be moving to DaVinci-Resolve next year. Reaper and other DAWs and NLEs are great at some things and pretty useless at other things, but the idea of a colour-grading and layering SW, with NLE and DAW all rolled into one, with proper hardware integration and all that at a bonkers-low price is just the holy grail we have been waiting for!

I shall, no doubt, continue to use Reaper for many things, but we have now totally dropped ProTools and have discounted Avid for any future upgrades as the recent developments show that their money-tree seems to be dying at the roots.

Last edited by The Byre; 09-08-2017 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 09-08-2017, 07:12 AM   #34
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It is well known that the BBC use REAPER (albeit for only certain tasks)without the back-up of a large sales and support team at Cuckos. My guess is that REAPER's stability, customisation abilities, general power and low cost mean that they are happy to invest in some in-house training etc. They also use (or did do?) Audition for editing so maybe REAPER is seen as not having an optimal work flow for every situation.
Audible uses Reaper in their in house studios for recording. All editing is done in PT. I've spoken with them about this and it has been a conscious decision for what is most productive for them, not a concession to anything.

For a large enterprise like the OP's I don't think it makes sense to limit the software to a single solution. There can be total consistency all across having each level of the work using the right software for the needs. And I totally agree with disenchantment with a company being enough to not continue with them.
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Old 09-08-2017, 09:47 AM   #35
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My experience is the same, but that reluctance is hard to justify. Avid has done tremendous damage by making the decision to move development offshore not once, but twice, in the last few years. And no one had to die.

One bad decision by the CEO has crippled development and reliability on PT for years.

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My experience of software purchasing decisions by large organisations suggests extreme reluctance to invest significant resources deploying a solution whose providers could be totally wiped out by a tandem bicycle accident - no matter how superior that solution might be.
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Old 09-08-2017, 10:44 AM   #36
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There used to be a saying in industry that, "Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM."

...Going with the tried-and-true isn't always the best option, but it's often the least risky option. And, risk is a very important part of business/investment decisions, like gmgmgm said about the tandem bicycle. You can study the stock market and become an expert, but that doesn't mean you'll become rich... It does mean that you'll understand & accept the risks you're taking and that you won't make stupid investments. (Of course I'm NOT saying that REAPER is a stupid investment.)

Maybe something will come-along to replace Pro-tools/Avid, but I wouldn't expect a successful company with 30 studios to change overnight. Something new might get phased-in, especially if that "something new" gets used on some highly-successful highly-visible projects. Actually, that success could come from another company/organization... If most of next-year's Grammy's are recorded/mixed/mastered with REAPER, Everybody will be jumping on the REAPER bandwagon.

Or, they might make some drastic changes if they are failing and they have to close half the studios and re-configure the remaining ones. Or, maybe that company shrinks & dies, and a new-growing company using new-different technology takes-over their market share.



...If I was running that 30-studio company I wouldn't switch it all to REAPER, but I'd probably buy a copy for anybody who wanted it! And, I'd probably be trying-out other hardware & software here-and-there on some smaller projects to see how it goes.
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Old 09-08-2017, 10:57 AM   #37
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My experience of software purchasing decisions by large organisations suggests extreme reluctance to invest significant resources deploying a solution whose providers could be totally wiped out by a tandem bicycle accident - no matter how superior that solution might be.
There's an obvious logic to that of course.

I think the argument isn't so much against that thinking but more that Avid has turned unprofessional and unreliable. And in fact more so than the team prone to bicycle accidents.

Avid looks for all the world like a company with no future growth or innovation plans just riding out their life expectancy with their current customers with big infrastructure. If that's not the case... well then they're just good old fashioned screwing up I guess?

If the premise was for buying into an infrastructure with support vs. a more DIY product, the argument is that the DIY product (Reaper in this example) just might be more reliable and cost less overhead to manage without the large numbers of tech support personnel. To the point that the company vetting solutions and mindful of the above might still come to the same decision about that.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:19 PM   #38
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Ubisoft and Guitar Hero or Rockband cant remember the company's name switched to Reaper from Protools. Reasons are they are making a lots of installations for new employees or reinstalling often. At the speed its done with Reaper its understandable why.
Also batch exports with auto naming was a big thing for those companies.
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Old 09-09-2017, 06:28 PM   #39
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Maybe another way to put it is a DAW system used to require a support team and ongoing manufacturer support and service contracts. Protools DAW still does. Reaper however does not!
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:42 AM   #40
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Ubisoft and Guitar Hero or Rockband cant remember the company's name switched to Reaper from Protools. Reasons are they are making a lots of installations for new employees or reinstalling often. At the speed its done with Reaper its understandable why.
Also batch exports with auto naming was a big thing for those companies.
Yes, I often see Reaper used by developers.
For the reason stated above, and the tech-friendly approach I guess.
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